Any spell cast

[denthor]

Turns you to stone inside that chamber. Not that would not affect a demigod. Do you think his cleric will turn to stone? :eek::amused::biggrin:

[Cazero]

Any spell cast on any creature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html). Spell with a range of self may be allowed.

[denthor]

So you could cast dispel magic on yourself?
Confusion would turn you to stone but cause chaos in the process.

Anything else that could work to hinder this meeting.

Did any of them(other then the cleric) look like casters

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's not "any spell cast". It's "any breech of dwarven law". There's probably a number of spells specifically excluded, including Summon Proxy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's not "any spell cast". It's "any breech of dwarven law". There's probably a number of spells specifically excluded, including Summon Proxy.


The laws don't prohibit simply talking! But they do explicitly forbid attacking or using any spell or supernatural ability on any creature during a council meeting

I disagree with Cazero that there is a loophole in self-casting, since oneself is a subset of "any creature", but otherwise, it is correct that the law seems rather strict when it comes to actions during a council meeting.

Grey Wolf

[Bacon Elemental]

Maybe Summon Proxy counts as casting a spell on the relevant god. Are gods creatures in D&D?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe Summon Proxy counts as casting a spell on the relevant god. Are gods creatures in D&D?

They might not use summon proxy at all. The scenario can work with a commune/sending-like spell that receives the question from Dvalin and allows the priest to send back an answer. Alternatively, the blue barrier might not care about targets outside the room.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure that if it was impossible to do what they assemble there to do they'd have noticed by now.

[BaronOfHell]

Isn't summon proxy, and the barriers original spells in the sense they are not part of any other D&D work, such as books or similar?

If so, while perhaps more convoluted, I could imagine the summon proxy spell itself also provide immunity from the barrier spell effects, but only when it comes to casting summon proxy.
If there is some kind of connected history between the summon proxy spell the followers of Dvalin may receive, and the barrier spells surrounding the meeting of clan elders, then perhaps it could be a possibility that one spell may temporarily (e.g. while active) protect against the other?

[Cazero]

I disagree with Cazero that there is a loophole in self-casting, since oneself is a subset of "any creature", but otherwise, it is correct that the law seems rather strict when it comes to actions during a council meeting.

Grey Wolf
To be clear, I'm making a distinction between spells with a range of self (like Commune) and spells targeted at self (like a theoritical Dispell Magic).
Many spells with a range of self would be better described as not having a range at all.

[SirLancelittle]

What I keep wondering is this: Does the spell go off before you are turned to stone? If you are willing to sacrifice yourself, can you cast dispel magic on one person (or, even better, mass dispel)?

[CriticalFailure]

What will happen if the cleric turns themself to stone to prevent the vampires from swaying the vote? Do they need to find another cleric?

[woweedd]

People keep on misinterpreting: That barrier doesn't stop any spell being cast: It stops any spell being cast ON THE COUNCIL. It stops violations of Dwarven law, of which casting spells on the Council is one.

[Emanick]

I wonder what would happen if you summoned a creature that, say, dealt fire damage to any creature within a certain radius. Would that count as a violation of the rules?

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'm pretty sure that if it was impossible to do what they assemble there to do they'd have noticed by now.

Naaaaa Clerics turning to stone is just a problem with the piping...

[Oxenstierna]

As seems to have been spotted by a couple of people here already, I’m reading two loopholes within the blue barrier rules as given in the comic. I read the conditions as: anyone violating dwarven law is instantly turned into stone until the meeting is formally adjourned, and casting any spell on any creature is against dwarven law. Now assuming the spell casting is instant, and you don’t mind waiting out the meeting in stone form, I don’t see it written that the spell is actually prevented from taking effect (obviously if it takes longer to cast, being turned to stone sort-of hampers the finishing of the spell casting). Second potential loophole: creatures may not be targeted, but dispel magic lists three ‘targeted dispel’ options. The other two are objects, and spells. Therefore, what’s to stop the dominate gaze attack, (treated as the dominate person spell once in effect), being specifically targeted with dispel magic?

[Kelenius]

Well, in that case, there's a very easy way around it.

1) Summon an earth elemental (doesn't target the council, so not a violation)
2) Order it to attack everyone else (speaking is not a violation)
3) Have a nice cold pint and wait for everything to blow over

There are, presumably, other laws that would stop it.

[HorizonWalker]

As seems to have been spotted by a couple of people here already, I’m reading two loopholes within the blue barrier rules as given in the comic. I read the conditions as: anyone violating dwarven law is instantly turned into stone until the meeting is formally adjourned, and casting any spell on any creature is against dwarven law. Now assuming the spell casting is instant, and you don’t mind waiting out the meeting in stone form, I don’t see it written that the spell is actually prevented from taking effect (obviously if it takes longer to cast, being turned to stone sort-of hampers the finishing of the spell casting). Second potential loophole: creatures may not be targeted, but dispel magic lists three ‘targeted dispel’ options. The other two are objects, and spells. Therefore, what’s to stop the dominate gaze attack, (treated as the dominate person spell once in effect), being specifically targeted with dispel magic?

One problem with the "instant spellcasting" assumption:

It isn't.

Counterspelling is a thing, and for counterspelling to work, you need to be able to instantly recognize the spell being cast and start casting your own before it's finished. If your spell can be interrupted by a mortal spellcaster, then it can probably be interrupted by ancient dwarven magics layered onto the defenses of, at the time, the most important building in the kingdom.

[woweedd]

As seems to have been spotted by a couple of people here already, I’m reading two loopholes within the blue barrier rules as given in the comic. I read the conditions as: anyone violating dwarven law is instantly turned into stone until the meeting is formally adjourned, and casting any spell on any creature is against dwarven law. Now assuming the spell casting is instant, and you don’t mind waiting out the meeting in stone form, I don’t see it written that the spell is actually prevented from taking effect (obviously if it takes longer to cast, being turned to stone sort-of hampers the finishing of the spell casting). Second potential loophole: creatures may not be targeted, but dispel magic lists three ‘targeted dispel’ options. The other two are objects, and spells. Therefore, what’s to stop the dominate gaze attack, (treated as the dominate person spell once in effect), being specifically targeted with dispel magic?
Casting any spell ON THE COUNCIL is aganist the law.

[HorizonWalker]

Casting any spell ON THE COUNCIL is aganist the law.

"But they do explicitly forbid attacking or using any spell or supernatural ability on any creature during a council meeting." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html)

[woweedd]

"But they do explicitly forbid attacking or using any spell or supernatural ability on any creature during a council meeting." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html)
Ah. I'm sorry, my bad.

[Oxenstierna]

One problem with the "instant spellcasting" assumption:

It isn't.

Counterspelling is a thing

That makes sense. I guess it rules out the ‘cast and be damned’ option, unless you get into counterspelling the petrification... it does underline that objects and potentially spells could still be targeted rather than creatures. Keeping within the laws as given so far.

To be honest, regardless of the attempts of every spellcaster in almost every D&D session :) I don’t expect this situation to be resolved with a handy spell. It’s just not very satisfying as narrative except as a punchline.

[mjasghar]

Well, in that case, there's a very easy way around it.

1) Summon an earth elemental (doesn't target the council, so not a violation)
2) Order it to attack everyone else (speaking is not a violation)
3) Have a nice cold pint and wait for everything to blow over

There are, presumably, other laws that would stop it.
Conspiracy to commit murder/assault

[Rogar Demonblud]

And the earth elemental will be petrified immediately, turning it into a rather ugly statue.

[Anymage]

Casting any spell during the council meeting is a violation. I don't expect the vote to be resolved by calling a recess and then casting all the necessary spells (that's a little too simple for such a dramatic moment), but I fully expect that afterwards the meeting will be adjourned and the vampires will cease to be protected by technicalities of dwarven law.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think the idea for several of these is to cast the spell in the Guard Circle before walking into the Blue Circle.

[Cazero]

And the earth elemental will be petrified immediately, turning it into a rather ugly statue.
The whole point of picking an earth elemental as your summon : they're immune to petrification.

[Wizard_Lizard]

The whole point of picking an earth elemental as your summon : they're immune to petrification.
Maybe they change from stone to flesh?

[woweedd]

Maybe they change from stone to flesh?
They actually call us "flesh elementals": Little-known fact.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The whole point of picking an earth elemental as your summon : they're immune to petrification.

No they aren't. Well, technically petrification works a paralyzation on them.

[Jay R]

Well, in that case, there's a very easy way around it.

1) Summon an earth elemental (doesn't target the council, so not a violation)
2) Order it to attack everyone else (speaking is not a violation)
3) Have a nice cold pint and wait for everything to blow over

There are, presumably, other laws that would stop it.

I really don't think that Rich is looking for a way around the clear intent of the author. In the last council, the loophole was one that allowed Roy to attack the vampire in Durkon's body.

Whatever solution is found, it will be one that allows the Order of the Stick to have a long, difficult, suspenseful task -- not an easy way around it and a cold pint.

[Alias]

I really don't think that Rich is looking for a way around the clear intent of the author. In the last council, the loophole was one that allowed Roy to attack the vampire in Durkon's body.

Whatever solution is found, it will be one that allows the Order of the Stick to have a long, difficult, suspenseful task -- not an easy way around it and a cold pint.

Pretty much.

BTW, the best solution is rather obvious - get to the council room then cast antimagic shell after Daarvkin presents his question. That shuts down the domination gaze, stops the stoning and allows the fighters to beat the vampire's heads in.

[Rogar Demonblud]

From what we understand of the barrier description, that results in you getting stoned when you try to cast, your spell not going off (effectively, you were counterspelled) and everything continues as before. Probably, attacking an 'advisor' is also a violation of dwarven law, so your fighters are now statues as well.

[D.One]

From what we understand of the barrier description, that results in you getting stoned when you try to cast, your spell not going off (effectively, you were counterspelled) and everything continues as before. Probably, attacking an 'advisor' is also a violation of dwarven law, so your fighters are now statues as well.

I believe Elan would be OK with casting a spell and getting stoned... :smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

Pretty much.

BTW, the best solution is rather obvious - get to the council room then cast antimagic shell after Daarvkin presents his question. That shuts down the domination gaze, stops the stoning and allows the fighters to beat the vampire's heads in.

Would that block Summon Proxy, though? And thus Dvalin won't get an "official" answer while he's there?

I mean I'm pretty sure if he could be bothered to, he could scry on the place directly, but he seems like a stickler for the rules...

[Squire Doodad]

Pretty much.

BTW, the best solution is rather obvious - get to the council room then cast antimagic shell after Daarvkin presents his question. That shuts down the domination gaze, stops the stoning and allows the fighters to beat the vampire's heads in.

You would need to cast Antimagic Field shortly outside of the room in order for the spell to make it through.

[Anymage]

AMF targets an area, not a creature. As such, barring outside complications, it should work.

Of course, dwarven law might explicitly forbid the casting of certain spells within the chamber. If AMF is on that list, you're petrified as soon as you start casting. Alternately, certain spells and effects explicitly trump AMF, and the dwarven barriers might well have similar effects. (I would not be surprised if the orange barrier had a component of Wall of Force to it, and AMF explicitly mentions WoF as a spell it cannot affect.) There are plenty of ways that the "cast AMF and start hammering" plan could fall through.

[Fyraltari]

Would that block Summon Proxy, though? And thus Dvalin won't get an "official" answer while he's there?

I mean I'm pretty sure if he could be bothered to, he could scry on the place directly, but he seems like a stickler for the rules...

There’s no need for Summon Proxy, Dvalin can simply zot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) his priest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html) without her doing anything.

[Fish]

I think the solution will be something pertaining to the rules of dwarven society.

:durkon: I think ye might be fergettin’ th’ Official Rules o’ Order. Ye made a motion, so ye have t’ make a toast. To Thor!

And the vampires don’t drink ... beer.

[D.One]

I think the solution will be something pertaining to the rules of dwarven society.

:durkon: I think ye might be fergettin’ th’ Official Rules o’ Order. Ye made a motion, so ye have t’ make a toast. To Thor!

And the vampires don’t drink ... beer.

A dwarven decision in which not everyone in the roon drinks a gallon or two of beer isn't valid. It's the Law. :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

I think the solution will be something pertaining to the rules of dwarven society.

:durkon: I think ye might be fergettin’ th’ Official Rules o’ Order. Ye made a motion, so ye have t’ make a toast. To Thor!

And the vampires don’t drink ... beer.
The vampire didn’t make a motion. Her thrall did.

[Dion]

The vampire didn’t make a motion. Her thrall did.

When you toast, everyone drinks!

And that’s why they have to postpone the vote for at least a year. The newest clan elder, Kudzu, is still a little too young to drink a full gallon of beer.

Edit: wait... am I mixing threads? Well, little Kudzu FireHelm, The chosen elder of clan Thundershield, is awesome. He can be in all the threads.

[brian 333]

The Kudzu For Clan Elder Campaign wants your support. Donate 5 sp for a MFGA hat, or 5 gp for a monthly newsletter and a t-shirt that says: "Vote for Kudzu, he'll grow on you."

Mail your check to brian333 or visit our Macebook page.

[Squire Doodad]

The vampire didn’t make a motion. Her thrall did.

Doesn't matter. The vampire fails to drink, and so is forced to leave the room in shame.

[woweedd]

The Kudzu For Clan Elder Campaign wants your support. Donate 5 sp for a MFGA hat, or 5 gp for a monthly newsletter and a t-shirt that says: "Vote for Kudzu, he'll grow on you."

Mail your check to brian333 or visit our Macebook page.
You're treading the edge, man.

[Emanick]

Doesn't matter. The vampire fails to drink, and so is forced to leave the room in shame.

Aren't vampires technically capable of drinking beverages? :smallconfused: They don't derive any benefit from them, of course, and they may or may not have functioning taste buds, but that doesn't mean they lack the ability to imbibe liquids.

[Dion]

AMF targets an area, not a creature. As such, barring outside complications, it should work.

It’s probably reasonable to assume that the dwarven rule lawyers were smart enough to write the laws in such a way that they included area effect spells.

After all, Gontor doesn’t say “target” a spell, he just says “use” a spell. There’s probably some 38 page description of exactly what that means in the green council rule book.

You probably can’t just start casting fireballs in there and say “I’m not casting fireballs AT anyone. I’m just casting fireballs around, and it’s really the vampires fault if they happen to be in the way. Technically, they’re the ones that should turn to stone, for being in a place where a fireball hits them.”

I mean, maybe you can? But it seems likely the dwarves would have thought of that.

[Rinazina]

I'm diverging the thread only a bit, to the orange barrier instead of the blue one.

if Bloodfeast the lizard get thrown into, would be dispelled and be back to be a rampaging T-rex?
(at this point I don't think is going to happen, because would damage all the effort in keeping alive the charmed dummies. )

[Elanasaurus]

I'm diverging the thread only a bit, to the orange barrier instead of the blue one.

if Bloodfeast the lizard get thrown into, would be dispelled and be back to be a rampaging T-rex?
(at this point I don't think is going to happen, because would damage all the effort in keeping alive the charmed dummies. )No because the barrier physically prevents anyone but dwarves from entering

[Rogar Demonblud]

We would have a suddenly full-size and likely kind of peckish allosaurus right next to the nightcrawler, though. Popcorn time.

[Jannoire]

Aren't vampires technically capable of drinking beverages? :smallconfused: They don't derive any benefit from them, of course, and they may or may not have functioning taste buds, but that doesn't mean they lack the ability to imbibe liquids.

In a bonus strip to W&XP there is a scene, where a fighter girl in the Azure army says something about undead not having a constitution score. So they will get intoxicated by even the slightest drop off beer in their body.

Likewise, a vampire forced to drink beer will be 1d4 sheets to the wind...

[The MunchKING]

It's more like because their body is dead, they are immune to poisons.

[D.One]

It's more like because their body is dead, they are immune to poisons.

And thus can't get drunk, and thus can't fulfill dwarven law... :smalltongue:

[Fish]

Vampire 1: Ewww, I don’t like beer.
Durkon: Aye, then th’ motion fails.
Vampire 2: Drink the ale! What could go wrong?
Vampire 1: *drinks* This is disgusting! *spits it out*
Durkon: Ah, ye shouldn’t’ve done tha’. Spittin’ out beer is against th’ law.
Vampire 1: *turns to stone*
Vampire 2: Oh, crap..
Durkon: I move we keep the statue. Another toast!
Vampire 2: Double crap.

[Fish]

Actually, if the toasting thing turns out to be a real law, Durkon could set up a tremendous double-bind here.

If the vampires don’t drink after the toast, they break the law and turn to stone. If they do drink, they’ll find that Durkon brought holy ale. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html)

[denthor]

Turns you to stone inside that chamber. Not that would not affect a demigod. Do you think his cleric will turn to stone? :eek::amused::biggrin:


We got the answer she did not.

[Squire Doodad]

We got the answer she did not.

But we haven't seen the full spell cast, so how do we know it doesn't stone you until the spell is done? Hm? Hm? :smallwink:

[Paleomancer]

Aren't vampires technically capable of drinking beverages? :smallconfused: They don't derive any benefit from them, of course, and they may or may not have functioning taste buds, but that doesn't mean they lack the ability to imbibe liquids.

There is a quote from one of the old Dracula movies that he doesn't drink... wine. A hint at his bloodthirsty nature that has been parodied to death and back from the grave. The posters above are just joking around with that idea, save that beer is used, because what self-respecting dwarf drinks wine? That's an elven thing :P


If they do drink, they’ll find that Durkon brought holy ale. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html)
While that almost assuredly won't happen (at least that dramatically), I like your style.

[brian 333]

Wait...

There's such a thing as ale that's not holy?

Wow...

Okay. I needed time to process that.

I don't think the violence will commence in the council chambers until after the vote, even violence against the ceiling. I think this will be another battle Durkon wins by being wiser than his foe.

And I have a crazy premonition that Sigdi won't make it.

I've been invested in the idea that Grandma would babysit while Durkon and Hilgya went to Kraggor's Tomb, but now...

[Reboot]

Well, in that case, there's a very easy way around it.

1) Summon an earth elemental (doesn't target the council, so not a violation)
2) Order it to attack everyone else (speaking is not a violation)
3) Have a nice cold pint and wait for everything to blow over

There are, presumably, other laws that would stop it.

Better still, summon a water elemental, cast a fly spell on it, tell it to hover over everyone, and then attack someone from that position...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Elementals are still subject to the petrification if they attack. So even if you don't become a temporary lawn ornament for casting the spell, they will.

[Reboot]

Elementals are still subject to the petrification if they attack. So even if you don't become a temporary lawn ornament for casting the spell, they will.

Hence the fly spell and the hovering over before attacking.

(I was imagining the summoning - and probably the ordering - was done between the barriers)

[Dion]

Hence the fly spell and the hovering over before attacking.

(I was imagining the summoning - and probably the ordering - was done between the barriers)

Because flying creatures aren’t subject to dwarven law... genius!

[Rogar Demonblud]

No, Reboot's plan is for the suddenly petrified elemental to just fall on someone, which is not how the spell works. If the fly spell is not dispelled, the stone will simply hover. If it is dispelled, the stone will gently drop down until it reaches ground level.

[ijuinkun]

Wait...

There's such a thing as ale that's not holy?

Wow...

Okay. I needed time to process that.


Ale is sacred, but to be "holy" in this context is for it to have been blessed through certain ceremony and/or prayers by a priest.

[Dion]

No, Reboot's plan is for the suddenly petrified elemental to just fall on someone,

That’s as silly as my earlier idea of just tossing around fireballs and then claiming “fireballs target an area, not people! It’s technically your fault if you’re in the way!”

[D.One]

Because flying creatures aren’t subject to dwarven law... genius!

If that comes into play during the Council scene, I'll laugh.

[Cazero]

Because flying creatures aren’t subject to dwarven law... genius!
It's not about flight, it's about above ground territory. Flying underground won't work.

[D.One]

It's not about flight, it's about above ground territory. Flying underground won't work.

Sooo... is flying some sort of diplomatic immunity? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Squire Doodad]

If that comes into play during the Council scene, I'll laugh.

The landing pad monsters get their vengeance, only to realize they did it the wrong way.

[RatElemental]

It did say any spell on a creature.

So what if Durkon cast dispel magic... on the barrier? Strikes me as being wondrous architecture, which means if he passes the CL check it'd go dormant for a few rounds, long enough to get some work done in the commotion.

[Dion]

It did say any spell on a creature.

The barrier doesn’t just prevent casting spells on creatures. It turns anyone who violates ANY dwarven law to stone instantly.

The prohibition against casting any spell on any creature is just one example among the many laws that are enforced.

Remember, the dwarves have had more than a 1,000 years to come up with the rules, and clearly there are dwarves who really, really, REALLY like rules.

[MartianInvader]

What I'm not clear on is whether the barrier actually prevents casting spells (ie the turning to stone disrupts the spell), or whether it's purely a punative effect and the spell still takes effect. Maybe Durkon can just cast Greater Dispel Magic on the council and save the world for the simple cost of being turned to stone until the meeting ends.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If it was that simple, there'd be no need for this much build up.

[Xyril]

The barrier doesn’t just prevent casting spells on creatures. It turns anyone who violates ANY dwarven law to stone instantly.

The prohibition against casting any spell on any creature is just one example among the many laws that are enforced.

Remember, the dwarves have had more than a 1,000 years to come up with the rules, and clearly there are dwarves who really, really, REALLY like rules.

True, but the fact that they really like rules, and that they mostly grew up among folks who really like rules, might be precisely why they would have a blind spot for loopholes. Even if you're well aware that most other races are far less scrupulous than you are and make efforts to think about how they would circumvent the rules, the fact that you and everybody you know have never tried to think that way remains a major handicap.

Lawyers to exploit loopholes for a living have trouble crafting laws and contracts without unintended loopholes. I imagine it would be far more difficult of a task for someone who is only abstractly aware that lawyers and loopholes exist, and almost certainly doomed to failure if that someone is utterly convinced that their inherent honesty and love of laws are enough to guarantee success.

Also, while it's mostly been done as punchlines, there have been numerous examples of dwarves showing a shocking lack of ability to think even a little outside the box, i.e. Durkon and Minrah being unable to fully accept that their orthodoxy may have been a less-than-accurate interpretation of Thor's will regarding trees, or Durkon (and Roy, but obviously not a dwarf) showing a complete lack of self-awareness regarding the idea of lawful good types not being the best at accepting viewpoints outside of their own--IIRC, this last bit was well after they'd met Miko, too.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, while it's mostly been done as punchlines, there have been numerous examples of dwarves showing a shocking lack of ability to think even a little outside the box, i.e. Durkon and Minrah being unable to fully accept that their orthodoxy may have been a less-than-accurate interpretation of Thor's will regarding trees, or Durkon (and Roy, but obviously not a dwarf) showing a complete lack of self-awareness regarding the idea of lawful good types not being the best at accepting viewpoints outside of their own--IIRC, this last bit was well after they'd met Miko, too.

Nah. The tree thing was spot on, it's just that Thor calmed down a little like a century ago and hasn't had the best of contact with his high priests until a few years back.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe Durkon can just cast Greater Dispel Magic on the council and save the world for the simple cost of being turned to stone until the meeting ends.


If it was that simple, there'd be no need for this much build up.

Indeed. More likely, the build up is so that Durkon can defeat the vampires by using his moral compass to break the councilmembers domination, not unlike what we have seen Roy do.

Magic is (almost*) never the solution to a plotline, as was established by V.

Grey Wolf

*I'll grant that V's gust of wind did "resolve" a B-plot, but only in the sense that it was already resolved, and it was a way to let the readership know it wasn't coming back.

[D.One]

We could also say the Resurrection spell was the final step in solving "Roy's dead" subplot. :smallbiggrin:

[Corruptedpants]

Ok yeah so I figured it out.

Presumably, attempting to tamper with the dwarven council vote (by magical means or otherwise) would be against dwarven law as well and thus auto-stonify any collaborating vampires in the chamber. So that's a load of winged bull.

But I figured it out:
Check 1157 (Can't post urls, first post here evar)
"Take your seat in the inner chamber. Vote yes on the main proposal and follow any verbal instructions given by a vampire"

Who's to say Dvalin or his cleric can't change the wording of the proposal. "Do we give this world a chance to fix the problem and have it continue to exist" -> The dominated councillors will be forced to say "yes", thus crisis averted.

[Cazero]

Presumably, attempting to tamper with the dwarven council vote (by magical means or otherwise) would be against dwarven law as well and thus auto-stonify any collaborating vampires in the chamber. So that's a load of winged bull.
A disturbing accusation, if true. However, now that plans for a full investigation have been made, pushing the topic could be considered slander.

[denthor]

Ok yeah so I figured it out.

Presumably, attempting to tamper with the dwarven council vote (by magical means or otherwise) would be against dwarven law as well and thus auto-stonify any collaborating vampires in the chamber. So that's a load of winged bull.

But I figured it out:
Check 1157 (Can't post urls, first post here evar)
"Take your seat in the inner chamber. Vote yes on the main proposal and follow any verbal instructions given by a vampire"

Who's to say Dvalin or his cleric can't change the wording of the proposal. "Do we give this world a chance to fix the problem and have it continue to exist" -> The dominated councillors will be forced to say "yes", thus crisis averted.


Welcome to the boards(insanity).

May we not infect you.

[D.One]

Check 1157 (Can't post urls, first post here evar)
"Take your seat in the inner chamber. Vote yes on the main proposal and follow any verbal instructions given by a vampire"

Who's to say Dvalin or his cleric can't change the wording of the proposal. "Do we give this world a chance to fix the problem and have it continue to exist" -> The dominated councillors will be forced to say "yes", thus crisis averted.

I like the idea that a clever use of the wording of the command Gontor* gave (in this case, the command to vote yes) might be a solution for the situation. The main problem for the heroes to explore that is that they didn't listen to Gontor* giving the command. Unless, of course, the vampires' plan was so detailed that Durkon* and Gontor* established even that exact phrase previously.


Welcome to the boards(insanity).

May we not infect you.

I believe that ship has already sailed... :smalltongue:

[Jannoire]

It would feel pretty cheap though...

The plot has been built for months, if not years... Having it resolved by just asking a slightly different question would feel a lot like studying for an exam and then getting an A for writing your name correctly.

[Corruptedpants]

The plot has been built for months, if not years... Having it resolved by just asking a slightly different question would feel a lot like studying for an exam and then getting an A for writing your name correctly.The plot isn't about the dwarven council. That's a side plot, that's only been happening for less time than the actual question of the godsmoot has been revealed. It has to be resolved in favor of the OotS so they have enough time to resolve the A plot - Xykon and the last gate, which will inevitably lead to the resolution of the cosmic conundrum.

Just for that reason it is narratively impossible for the Order to fail here, and the sooner we get a resolution to this side show, the better.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The plot isn't about the dwarven council. That's a side plot, that's only been happening for less time than the actual question of the godsmoot has been revealed. It has to be resolved in favor of the OotS so they have enough time to resolve the A plot - Xykon and the last gate, which will inevitably lead to the resolution of the cosmic conundrum.

Just for that reason it is narratively impossible for the Order to fail here, and the sooner we get a resolution to this side show, the better.

No. For the purposes of this book (#6), this is the main plot, and Xykon and the gates are irrelevant. The resolution is not going to be taken out of the Oots’ hands (and to be more specific, it won’t be taken out of Durkon’s hands, since this is his book) and given to a random godling with a grand total of like 3 strip appearances.

Grey Wolf

[Gallowglass]

The plot isn't about the dwarven council. That's a side plot, that's only been happening for less time than the actual question of the godsmoot has been revealed. It has to be resolved in favor of the OotS so they have enough time to resolve the A plot - Xykon and the last gate, which will inevitably lead to the resolution of the cosmic conundrum.

Just for that reason it is narratively impossible for the Order to fail here, and the sooner we get a resolution to this side show, the better.

Why do you even read this comic?

Spoiler alert. The OOtS is not going to lose, they are going to beat Xykon, they are going to "beat" the snarl, they are going to save the world. It is as narrative-ly impossible for the Order to fail on what you call "the A plot" as it is for them to fail on this "side show"

In fact, the narrative outcome of "the side show" presents a more variable outcome than the A-plot.

{scrubbed}

[Corruptedpants]

Spoiler alert. The OOtS is not going to lose, they are going to beat Xykon, they are going to "beat" the snarl, they are going to save the world. It is as narrative-ly impossible for the Order to fail on what you call "the A plot" as it is for them to fail on this "side show"

In fact, the narrative outcome of "the side show" presents a more variable outcome than the A-plot.No. Wrong. In fact, it is quite obvious that the Order will fail at defeating Xykon. Because the central conflict, the theme, is a conflict between the snarl, the pantheons, and the Dark One. The "A plot", the Order-Xykon conflict, must fail (from a perspective of the OotS) to bring ahead a resolution of this great conflict, the conflict between gods and mortals.

Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world, some of his best evil took place there. The gods do want to destroy the world. Either because they understand what the Dark One is up to, or because they want to be on the safe side, or for other schemes such as with Hel.


{scrub the post, scrub the quote}For the D&D jokes mostly. And the murder.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Snarl is a macguffin. The gods are interested bystanders. The OOTS are the main characters, and the story is about them and what they do.

[georgie_leech]

No. Wrong. In fact, it is quite obvious that the Order will fail at defeating Xykon. Because the central conflict, the theme, is a conflict between the snarl, the pantheons, and the Dark One. The "A plot", the Order-Xykon conflict, must fail (from a perspective of the OotS) to bring ahead a resolution of this great conflict, the conflict between gods and mortals.

Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world, some of his best evil took place there. The gods do want to destroy the world. Either because they understand what the Dark One is up to, or because they want to be on the safe side, or for other schemes such as with Hel.

For the D&D jokes mostly. And the murder.

I'm just gonna leave the Giant to speak for himself:


The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat.

...The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World.

In short, you have which part of the plot the author considers the main conflict/point of the comic almost completely and explicitly backwards.
Cool, I didn't even need Summon Banana this time.

[Corruptedpants]

I'm just gonna leave the Giant to speak for himself:

In short, you have which part of the plot the author considers the main conflict/point of the comic almost completely and explicitly backwards.I don't see a disagreement there. He didn't say "The story ends when Xykon dies". Let me put it in a different way what the problem with your framework is:

So after the Order inevitably destroyed the vampires and saved the day and the dwarven council elects to let the world live for a little bit longer, they go to Xykon and defeat him. Climactic battle, endless speeches, Belkar dies, the works. But they win. Then the gods destroy the world anyways because the Snarl is getting loose. Or because Redcloak completes the Plan. The end.

The snarl-god conflict is the framework in which the Order operates in. The narrative focuses on the OotS and its characters. That's why I said the Order-Xykon dealio is the A-plot. But it doesn't end there. Instead, the Order will fail, MUST fail at that point of fighting with Xykon, so as to get involved with the god-plot. Instead they'll have to get Redcloak on their side and probably broker a cooperation between the Dark one and the Pantheons. Exactly BECAUSE the story is about the OotS and we need these characters in those positions so we can resolve those plotlines using these characters.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The divine side of the plot gets resolved when the Order either convinces Redcloak to donate a 9th or they find a way to trick him/swipe it. It is a minor detail in their story.

[georgie_leech]

And you think that these strips growing the characters isn't part of putting them in character space they need to be in order to save the world? Durkon wrestling with a literal manifestation of his traumas and becoming a more active contributor that acts on the world instead of just reacting to it is an important part of his journey. Who do you think is more likely to be in a position to save the world: this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) in the memory, or this guy? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

[Squire Doodad]

And you think that these strips growing the characters isn't part of putting them in character space they need to be in order to save the world? Durkon wrestling with a literal manifestation of his traumas and becoming a more active contributor that acts on the world instead of just reacting to it is an important part of his journey. Who do you think is more likely to be in a position to save the world: this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) in the memory, or this guy? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

The one chopping off the vampire's head, of course.

[Fish]

No. Wrong. In fact, ...
You might want to stretch your imagination a little. As a mental exercise, I came up with 4 different scenarios in which the Order has nothing to do with the resolution of the Gods/Snarl situation. In some, they defeated Xykon; in others, they did not. Your limited list of preferred or imagined endings does not constitute logical elimination of other possibilities.

[Dion]

As a mental exercise, I came up with 4 different scenarios...

I think people imagined about 750,000,000 possible scenarios for the end of GoT.

Do you know how many people imagined Bran being king?

None.

None people imagined it.

[Squire Doodad]

I think people imagined about 750,000,000 possible scenarios for the end of GoT.

Do you know how many people imagined Bran being king?

None.

None people imagined it.

*raises hand*
"Hey! I did! I imag-"
*shlock*

[MartianInvader]

I think people imagined about 750,000,000 possible scenarios for the end of GoT.

Do you know how many people imagined Bran being king?

None.

None people imagined it.

GoT is generally a poor series to compare to for plot arcs, since it's always kind of been designed to subvert expectations and horrify/disappoint its audience way more than most fiction.

[Squire Doodad]

GoT is generally a poor series to compare to for plot arcs, since it's always kind of been designed to subvert expectations and horrify/disappoint its audience way more than most fiction.

Once every few months, have a poll on the audience's favorite character. Randomly choose the person from second to fifth place and throw them into a bottomless pit.
A year or two later, the bottomless pit shows up on the list.
Complications ensue.

[Goblin_Priest]

The divine side of the plot gets resolved when the Order either convinces Redcloak to donate a 9th or they find a way to trick him/swipe it. It is a minor detail in their story.

Redcloak is narratively the main villain of the story. I don't think the Order/Redcloak issues will get resolved simply and swiftly, for it is not a minor detail in the story, but at this point it is the central plot.

There are a number of ways this can pan out, but treating it as a minor detail is unimaginable to me. Trickery also seems out of the question. Durkon was given the divine mandate to convince Redcloak. To have the "good guys" trick/swipe it from him would be a subversion that would not at all be coherent with the meta of the narrative. This isn't a story about the good guys becoming less good in order to "do what must be done", "no matter the means". It's the story of imperfect people overcoming adversity and coming out as better people. Redcloak is as much a victim as a villain. Exploiting his weaknesses to achieve their objectives would not reflect greatly on their character, and would be a regression of their morals more than anything.

Richard isn't Rian Johnson. He's a much, much better storyteller than RJ. "Subverting expectations" is becoming a "thing" in mainstream media, but Rich has done it masterfully a number of times, such as the reveal of the many prior worlds, and not with cheap "bait-and-switch" "gotchas" things like SW:TLJ were crammed with. I'm sure Rich will continue to surprise us masterfully, but I can't see that being done in a way that makes the resolution with Redcloak a minor detail.

[MartianInvader]

Once every few months, have a poll on the audience's favorite character. Randomly choose the person from second to fifth place and throw them into a bottomless pit.
A year or two later, the bottomless pit shows up on the list.
Complications ensue.
Then you replace the bottomless pit with a psychotic breakdown and call it a series. That ought to catch everyone off guard.

[Dion]

Then you replace the bottomless pit with a psychotic breakdown and call it a series. That ought to catch everyone off guard.

Plot twist... the bottomless pit was a metaphor for the dragon!

Tada, we just solved the ending.

[Squire Doodad]

Plot twist... the bottomless pit was a metaphor for the dragon!

Tada, we just solved the ending.

Genius! Pure genius!

[Fish]

I think people imagined about 750,000,000 possible scenarios for the end of GoT.

Do you know how many people imagined Bran being king?

None.

None people imagined it.
That’s not the point I was responding to — Corruptedpants was not trying to ask if I could predict the outcome, he was trying to assert that certain outcomes were necessary, which is the same as declaring other outcomes impossible. I don’t think I can predict the ending, but imagining an ending that disproves his idea of “it must XYZ” is another matter.

[brian 333]

I can predict the ending:

Roy kills Xykon.
Belkar takes one for the team.
Redcloak saves the world after gaining concessions for goblinkind.
Elan and Haley step through a rift before it is sealed and find themselves in a village with an inn and a road that leads to a dungeon in one direction and an unfinished campaign setting in the other.

[Squire Doodad]

I can predict the ending:

Roy kills Xykon.
Belkar takes one for the team.
Redcloak saves the world after gaining concessions for goblinkind.
Elan and Haley step through a rift before it is sealed and find themselves in a village with an inn and a road that leads to a dungeon in one direction and an unfinished campaign setting in the other.

1. Almost guaranteed (if you have it be "the Order")
2. Something to that effect
3. Hopefully
4. Wait...what?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sequel/spinoff bait.

[Corruptedpants]

That’s not the point I was responding to — Corruptedpants was not trying to ask if I could predict the outcome, he was trying to assert that certain outcomes were necessary, which is the same as declaring other outcomes impossible. I don’t think I can predict the ending, but imagining an ending that disproves his idea of “it must XYZ” is another matter.Correct. I am going to reassert this here. The outcome of the vampires attempting to influence the dwarven council is 100% predictable - insofar the vote will be against the immediate destruction of the world, as this would prevent all the other storylines from being able to be resolved.

There's some questions that aren't predictable, sometimes "expectations get subverted", I'd say Belkar has like 80% chances of making it through even though his death as the opposite and parallel of Durkon would be thematically fitting. But the question whether the OotS stops the vampires from using the council to end the world, is just not a question, this has no dramatic tension, because it can't happen. Therefore it's kinda boring and I'm not invested in this sub-conflict and just want it over with asap, to get to the big showdown bit with Xykon & Redcloak.

What will happen there is much less predictable. The world might get destroyed after all, but in maybe a more gentle fashion.

[Squire Doodad]

Sequel/spinoff bait.

Rich doesn't strike me as the type who would go for that. Some possible material for it, but not going out of his way to make an ending for that purpose.

[brian 333]

Rich doesn't strike me as the type who would go for that. Some possible material for it, but not going out of his way to make an ending for that purpose.

I didn't intend it that way. I intended it to be the resolution of Elan's prophecy.

What ending could be happy for Elan which didn't include Haley and a new adventure?

[Rogar Demonblud]

One that includes Haley and a room with a large, comfortable bed?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Correct. I am going to reassert this here. The outcome of the vampires attempting to influence the dwarven council is 100% predictable

So is the business with Xykon. And no amount of you claiming this is a "sub-conflict" changes that this is the primary conflict of this book.

Grey Wolf

[Corruptedpants]

So is the business with Xykon. And no amount of you claiming this is a "sub-conflict" changes that this is the primary conflict of this book.I disagree. I'm going to assume you view the destruction of Xykon at the hands of Roy & the Order as the necessary and inevitable endpoint of the story. It is a fair claim, a realistic possibility, and narratively coherent, and does not stand in the way of other conflicts being resolved, such as the whole Snarl-Gods-business. However, unlike the dwarven council storyline, this exact resolution is not necessary to resolve the rest of the plotlines. Redcloak may destroy Xykon, or the Snarl might. Or Roy might get his ass kicked going Mano-a-Mano, only to have Durkon disintegrate Xykon, proving that Fighters do suck after all. Or Roy may strike a deal with Xykon leading to the saving of the world, at the cost of his fathers continued status in limbo. Or any other situation where Roy may defer fulfilling his fathers oath over more global concerns. Or he may simply fail and yet in his failure, bring the divine plot ahead. There are a lot of moving parts, and no particular resolution with Xykon is necessary to resolve the other plotlines.

None of this is true for the dwarven council storyline. There is exactly one possible outcome here that does not prevent all other storylines from concluding without resolution.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Redcloak may destroy Xykon, or the Snarl might. Or Roy might get his ass kicked going Mano-a-Mano, only to have Durkon disintegrate Xykon, proving that Fighters do suck after all. Or Roy may strike a deal with Xykon leading to the saving of the world, at the cost of his fathers continued status in limbo. Or any other situation where Roy may defer fulfilling his fathers oath over more global concerns. Or he may simply fail and yet in his failure, bring the divine plot ahead. There are a lot of moving parts, and no particular resolution with Xykon is necessary to resolve the other plotlines.

None of this is true for the dwarven council storyline. There is exactly one possible outcome here that does not prevent all other storylines from concluding without resolution.

No, not at all. The resolution could have involved Greg being expelled from Durkon's body at the end of the book, instead of before the vote. Or it could have followed any other different path I could think up. But it did not. So it seems your complaint is that you think you already know how this one will resolve because 90% of it has been resolved already. In which case, that's your problem, not a problem with the storytelling. 100 strips ago we did not know how the OotS would defeat the vampires anymore than we know at this time how the Order will defeat Xykon.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

If only we could have skipped over the tedious business with Smaug the Dragon destroying Lake-Town. It’s obvious Bilbo is going to destroy Sauron in the end. The dragon is just an unimportant side quest. Besides, everybody knows it’s the dwarves who will kill the dragon anyway. Let’s get to the real story.

[Fish]

If only we could have skipped over the tedious business of rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt. It’s obvious Luke is going to kill Darth Vader and blow up the Death Star in the end. Jabba is just an unimportant side quest. Besides, everybody knows it’s Han Solo who kills Jabba anyway. Let’s get to the real story.

[D.One]

If only we could have skipped over the tedious business of rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt. It’s obvious Luke is going to kill Darth Vader and blow up the Death Star in the end. Jabba is just an unimportant side quest. Besides, everybody knows it’s Han Solo who kills Jabba anyway. Let’s get to the real story.


STAR WARS
SINGLE EPISODE: The Victory

The Galaxy was in turmoil
The plans of a Sith Lord to
topple the Republic and establish
an Empire were a Phanton Menace
over the lifes of many. Attacks of clones
were part of such plans of Revenge, and only
a New Hope could face the Strike from the Empire
and make the Jedi Return if such dire fate happened.
However, the Force within Yoda Awakened, and the Jedi
united, from the first to The Last, and they killed Palpatine
and the other Sith. No Skywalker has Risen. And thus it ends.

[Corruptedpants]

If only we could have skipped over the tedious business of rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt. It’s obvious Luke is going to kill Darth Vader and blow up the Death Star in the end. Jabba is just an unimportant side quest. Besides, everybody knows it’s Han Solo who kills Jabba anyway. Let’s get to the real story.The Jabba sequence was sort of necessary to bring the crew back together, also showed up some things we hadn't seen before, Jabbas Palace, where many new interesting things entered the Canon such as the pig guards, the Rancor, the Sarlacc, it's the first time we see Luke properly Jedi-ing it up without it going against his Dad, so we get a sense of his new powers without it looking like an ass pull later in the movie when he does, and so forth. The whole Jabba section was necessary for structural reasons, and the outcome wasn't certain.

I've seen enough councils ran by dwarves, especially right after the other council run by dwarves¹ at the Godsmoot. Which is still going on and to which we will indubitably return in the future. Can we just get back to Dungeons and Monsters already. A Dragon perhaps. Maybe a Dragon in a Dungeon.

¹Technically the Creed of Stone had "A" dwarf running the Godsmoot, rather than "consisting" of dwarves running it, but to drive matters home about the repetitiveness, literally that very same dwarf is now also "running" the dwarven council.

[Fish]

I’m afraid you missed the point.

Han doesn’t kill Jabba. Luke doesn’t kill Vader or blow up the Death Star 2.0. It sure seems like that might be their respective narrative roles, but they aren’t.

Insisting that you know what’s going to happen, so we should skip ahead to other things you are certain will happen, is an exercise fraught with error.

[The MunchKING]

If only we could have skipped over the tedious business with Smaug the Dragon destroying Lake-Town. It’s obvious Bilbo is going to destroy Sauron in the end. The dragon is just an unimportant side quest. Besides, everybody knows it’s the dwarves who will kill the dragon anyway. Let’s get to the real story.

Well I mean that doesn't make as much sense, because it's a separate story, mostly unrelated to The Lord of the Rings. A better comparison would be "Let's skip all of The Two Towers". Which would, you know, save everyone a lot of time. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Rogar Demonblud]

Gontor was a glorified doorman at the Godsmoot. The High Priestess of Odin was running the Godsmoot (Northern Pantheon sectionals), and she is most definitely not a dwarf.

[Fish]

A better comparison would be "Let's skip all of The Two Towers". Which would, you know, save everyone a lot of time. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:
I kinda did that the first time I read the series at, oh, 10 years old or so. I was impatient.