I need help finding a deity.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

In the campaign I'm writing for my new players, I'm planning on there being a "witch-hunt" on any spellcasters that aren't divine; so arcane spellcasters are on the chopping block by this "Order of (i havent thought of a badass name yet)".

The Deity (preferably having the magic domain) has grown to view arcane casters as mortals trying to mock the Gods. "Either magic is granted to mortals by the Gods, or they dont get magic" is essentially the Deities outlook on magic in the world.

So I need a Deity that would fit this kind of role, while not being whole heartedly EVIL; I was however drawn to Vecna, sheerly because he is my favourite Deity simply due to the amount of lore that is available for him. If anyone is able to maybe give me a better suiting Deity/Quasi-Deity/Hero-Deity to turn into a mad leader of a crusade, I would greatly apperciate it! Quasi-to-Hero Deities would be prefferable, as they are something that i can even make a not-horribly-OP avatar for, that the characters can actually fight by level 10-12; Greater Deities, and even Intermediate Deities are very epic level.

This entire world is homebrew in it's entirety, with the exception of the Deities of the Greyhawk campaign setting; simply because i have always used them, and with all new players (literally all of them have never played) pre-made Deities is obviously the easiest route.

PS: If anyone has names for the order that would be awesome too "Order of Woe" seemed a bit too Skyrim for me?

[MisterKaws]

No, no, that's plenty evil. Also, honestly, you're better off statting this yourself. And make sure the players are on the same page as you. If someone wants to play an arcane caster and you just keep pressuring them unreasonably, it won't be a very long campaign. Cause they'll pretty much just stop caring.

[ngilop]

Are you looking for a published or homebrewed deity?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

No, no, that's plenty evil. Also, honestly, you're better off statting this yourself. And make sure the players are on the same page as you. If someone wants to play an arcane caster and you just keep pressuring them unreasonably, it won't be a very long campaign. Cause they'll pretty much just stop caring.

There are 2 players dedicated to playing arcane casters, just to make it more "this directly affects us"; they are aware of the premise of this campaign, we had session 0 and came to this conclusion. When I say not EVIL I mean not Asmodeous or another ruler of Hell or something. I want it to be a good-Deity-gone-bad scenario.


Are you looking for a published or homebrewed deity?

Something published in the Greyhawk Campaign setting; all splatbooks are acceptable.

[Cygnia]

Wasn't the Burning Hate faction of Pelor worship anti-arcanist?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Wasn't the Burning Hate faction of Pelor worship anti-arcanist?

I thought the Burning Hate were Vampires that were more "Pelor is Zarus, God of Hate! BUUUUURN" kinda thing?

[Particle_Man]

Would Pholtus work? He is a technically good god that thinks no one else is good enough. That would be easy to tip over into arrogance vs arcane magic.

[pabelfly]

If you want to use an official deity instead of creating your own pantheon or god, I find this deity search engine to be really helpful

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindDeity.php

Anyway, my suggestion is Boccob. Greater Deity, True Neutral, domains are Knowledge, Magic, Mind, Oracle, Planning, and Trickery. Portfolio is magic, arcane, knowledge, foresight and balance. All times and places are open to him, and he seeks balance and moderation over any aspect of the alignment, which could tie into your in-game plot.

[MisterKaws]

There are 2 players dedicated to playing arcane casters, just to make it more "this directly affects us"; they are aware of the premise of this campaign, we had session 0 and came to this conclusion. When I say not EVIL I mean not Asmodeous or another ruler of Hell or something. I want it to be a good-Deity-gone-bad scenario.

That's nice, then. Otherwise, it'd be like playing a Werebear in Eberron in a region under the jurisdiction of the Church of the Silver Flame(They hate any Shapechangers, even the ones who are inherently good-aligned).

Anyhow, I don't think there's much lore on any gods of that sort, aside from maybe Karsus from FR? I think you should just stick to homebrew for this.

The church organization itself could be something like the aforementioned Church of the Silver Flame, especially the Order of Templars, who keeps doing things that sound not-Good at all, like annihilating an entire race of sentient beings, for example.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Would Pholtus work? He is a technically good god that thinks no one else is good enough. That would be easy to tip over into arrogance vs arcane magic.

Pholtus would actually make an amazing Deity to do that with, it's a very posh "you're not a God, who cares" kinda attitude I think.


If you want to use an official deity instead of creating your own pantheon or god, I find this deity search engine to be really helpful

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindDeity.php

Anyway, my suggestion is Boccob. Greater Deity, True Neutral, domains are Knowledge, Magic, Mind, Oracle, Planning, and Trickery. Portfolio is magic, arcane, knowledge, foresight and balance. All times and places are open to him, and he seeks balance and moderation over any aspect of the alignment, which could tie into your in-game plot.

Boccob would be a nice fit as well, I definitely wouldnt make him himself come down to play out the WRATH as a BBEG, but he could have a nice avatar to do his bidding in the fight.


That's nice, then. Otherwise, it'd be like playing a Werebear in Eberron in a region under the jurisdiction of the Church of the Silver Flame(They hate any Shapechangers, even the ones who are inherently good-aligned).

Anyhow, I don't think there's much lore on any gods of that sort, aside from maybe Karsus from FR? I think you should just stick to homebrew for this.

The church organization itself could be something like the aforementioned Church of the Silver Flame, especially the Order of Templars, who keeps doing things that sound not-Good at all, like annihilating an entire race of sentient beings, for example.

The avatar/champion the possess or control will definitely be homebrew, I just need a God that I can work this lore into. Like, everything will go by the campaign setting, them boom, this God went a-wall and has called a crusade.

[Efrate]

Zagyg, dragon 338: demigod of humor, eccentricity, occult lore and unpredictability

The Xammux, BoVD: lesser composite god(s) of analytical thinking, forbidden lore, experimentation and amorality.

For more options.

Biggest problem is Boccob, he is known as the uncaring, but still as the god of magic and patron of spellcasters of all stripes. If it gets too bad he would likely take steps to correct it on some level since it deals with his portfolio. Make sure if its not Boccob you as DM have a good reason to keep him out of it. That could be a quest or a plotline in and of itself.

[MisterKaws]

Zagyg, dragon 338: demigod of humor, eccentricity, occult lore and unpredictability

The Xammux, BoVD: lesser composite god(s) of analytical thinking, forbidden lore, experimentation and amorality.

For more options.

Biggest problem is Boccob, he is known as the uncaring, but still as the god of magic and patron of spellcasters of all stripes. If it gets too bad he would likely take steps to correct it on some level since it deals with his portfolio. Make sure if its not Boccob you as DM have a good reason to keep him out of it. That could be a quest or a plotline in and of itself.

True that. Boccob himself is one of the strongest Greyhawk deities, too, so if he gets involved, he could just swat away whatever deity is being nosy around the mortals with a single Mage Hand.

And I can easily see him get involved once a god starts trying to dictate how to practice magic.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Zagyg, dragon 338: demigod of humor, eccentricity, occult lore and unpredictability

The Xammux, BoVD: lesser composite god(s) of analytical thinking, forbidden lore, experimentation and amorality.

For more options.

Biggest problem is Boccob, he is known as the uncaring, but still as the god of magic and patron of spellcasters of all stripes. If it gets too bad he would likely take steps to correct it on some level since it deals with his portfolio. Make sure if its not Boccob you as DM have a good reason to keep him out of it. That could be a quest or a plotline in and of itself.

Both actually play a great role on each other, what if Zagyg, being sponsored by Boccob as a Demi-God had this little crusade against Boccob's wishes?

He is the "Mad Arch-Mage" and his holy symbol is a literal tune of insanity.

So the players have to take down Zagyg's anti-magic templars, along with their crusade, and stop Zagyg with the blessing of Boccob? Boccob doesn't want to slay the man he brought to Godhood, but he will give someone a huge sword to do it for him.

[Troacctid]

I'd go with Pholtus for sure. Not only does he have the right attitude, he also has a whole nation of would-be inquisitors in the Theocracy of the Pale, tailor-made for the type of villainy you're looking for while still believing themselves to be righteous. You could easily port over the whole nation.

[Maat Mons]

How's this dude feel about spell-like abilities? Is he planning to wipe out all gnomes everywhere?

If he insists that any magic power wielded by mortals must have been granted by a deity, doesn't that still leave a lot of divine casters on his hit list? Clerics can worship ideals, and have no connection to any god. The paladin class doesn't give a crap about deities and worship at all. Most druids and rangers revere the abstract concept of nature.

Archivists are probably screwed no matter what, since any good citizen who sees their spellbook will report turn them as a wizard.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

How's this dude feel about spell-like abilities? Is he planning to wipe out all gnomes everywhere?

If he insists that any magic power wielded by mortals must have been granted by a deity, doesn't that still leave a lot of divine casters on his hit list? Clerics can worship ideals, and have no connection to any god. The paladin class doesn't give a crap about deities and worship at all. Most druids and rangers revere the abstract concept of nature.

Archivists are probably screwed no matter what, since any good citizen who sees their spellbook will report turn them as a wizard.

He doesn't believe that all magic came from Gods, just that they were the first to wield and create it, and they are the only ones who should be able.to deem who gets it.

The concept is Divine spellcasters at least recognize that their magic comes from Deities or Old Spirits. Arcane spellcasters are very much "hey look at this book I studied *fireball*".

The campaign (seeing that it goes that long) will devolve into "if you're a native to the material plane, you aren't worthy of magic", as elementals, celestials and the like that aren't actually deities are safe, as their entire heritage is magic. So even divine spellcasters that aren't their Hero's champion will be under fire from this now-tyranical God; he will however, grace them with the chance to just stop practicing magic from that point forward.

[Andry]

Pelor the Burning Hate?

[MisterKaws]

Pelor the Burning Hate?

Well, I went searching, and found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)).

I also went searching for the sources, and the Hammer of Witches in Weapons of Legacy p106:


The Holy Circle of the Light of Faith was the brainchild of an adventuring cleric named Malleus. During his long career with the Heroes of Lannan, Malleus came to the conclusion that arcane magic was the source of all harmful, wicked spells, while divine magic was the font of all good and helpful spells.
With this revelation fixed firmly in his heart, he murdered his companion, the sorcerer Arthal, and left the group, announcing he had been charged with a divine mission to eliminate all “heathen” spellcasters. Reliable reports tell of Malleus continuing to draw upon his deity’s divine power to cast spells and turn undead, despite the fact that he seemed to have committed several violations against the code of the church.

A Cleric who goes against their god's wishes loses all divine powers immediately. So guess what?

And then on Epic Levels Handbook page 119, they give us this adventure hook:



The Lord High Priest of Pelor denounces her deity and faith.


And back to the Hammer of Witches:



The Light’s first conflict with the mainstream church of Pelor came less than a year after Malleus founded the group. With the aid of hired mercenaries and summoned creatures from the Outer Planes, the Light raided a temple to Boccob.
Once the high priest of Pelor’s cathedral in the same city got word of what had happened, he gathered the church’s clerics, paladins, and other faithful to crush the renegades of the Circle of the Light. The battle was fierce. Though the mainstream church managed to rescue most of Boccob’s faithful, Malleus led several of his cultists in a daring escape.


Mate, I think you just found your deity and it is absolutely perfect.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Well, I went searching, and found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)).

I also went searching for the sources, and the Hammer of Witches in Weapons of Legacy p106:



A Cleric who goes against their god's wishes loses all divine powers immediately. So guess what?

And then on Epic Levels Handbook page 119, they give us this adventure hook:



And back to the Hammer of Witches:



Mate, I think you just found your deity and it is absolutely perfect.

This is perfect, I'll be using this group for sure, it's set! Thanks for the research my man!

I can even have the party seek out an item from Boccob to help defeat Malleus' forces, double the deity campaign.

[MisterKaws]

This is perfect, I'll be using this group for sure, it's set! Thanks for the research my man!

I can even have the party seek out an item from Boccob to help defeat Malleus' forces, double the deity campaign.

Glad you liked it. Make sure you tell us later how it went. Campaign logs are usually decently popular here.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Glad you liked it. Make sure you tell us later how it went. Campaign logs are usually decently popular here.

Would I start a new thread entirely, or just keep adding onto this one? I dont venture into the playground much.

[MisterKaws]

Would I start a new thread entirely, or just keep adding onto this one? I dont venture into the playground much.

Well, considering how long an average campaign takes, I think it would be best to start an entirely new thread. It's gonna be a few months at least, if all goes well, so raising this thread from the dead would be inappropriate.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Well, considering how long an average campaign takes, I think it would be best to start an entirely new thread. It's gonna be a few months at least, if all goes well, so raising this thread from the dead would be inappropriate.

Lmao yeah necroing the thread months ahead is kinda out there. I'll start a new one right now I guess yeah!

[RNightstalker]

I know she's from FR, but Shar would be a great candidate as she's trying to overthrow Mystra and absorb her domain as her own. Throw in the fact that she's got the Shadow Weave and it could definitely incorporate into your idea quite well.

[animewatcha]

Well, I went searching, and found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)).

I also went searching for the sources, and the Hammer of Witches in Weapons of Legacy p106:



A Cleric who goes against their god's wishes loses all divine powers immediately. So guess what?

And then on Epic Levels Handbook page 119, they give us this adventure hook:



And back to the Hammer of Witches:



Mate, I think you just found your deity and it is absolutely perfect.

Wasn't there a sidebar somewhere about say a paladin still being able to use his powers. The 'sponsor' being a devil in secret or something?

[MisterKaws]

Wasn't there a sidebar somewhere about say a paladin still being able to use his powers. The 'sponsor' being a devil in secret or something?

I'd assume Pelor is secretly an Ur-God(as opposed to Ur-Priest) and secretly steals Good spells from Heroineus to fuel his Paladins. I don't remember any specific book reference to Evil Deities being able to have paladins, though. The original article just considers that his Paladins are Paladins of Tyranny.

[Segev]

I'm of the opinion that "subversions" like this are not the unique twists people tend to think they are, especially given how frequently the Not-Catholic Church of a setting turns out to be a corrupt den of villainy that is secretly the illuminati controlling the world in fiction these days. It's almost a surprise to find The Church is actually good and holy and earnest in its righteous goals.

No, what this smacks of to me is a diabolical plan to deceive and undermine a god of Good's followers. The evidence does smack of deceit and trickery, traps designed to draw those with good intentions down to pave Hell with them. But the evidence is also self-contradictory if Pelor truly is the vile being purported: if he truly hates the undead and loathes them for their lack of suffering at his cancerous touch, why would he refuse that paladin's request for sunny vengeance upon a vampire?

As for rescuing a Paladin from Hell, there are actually two easy explanations left out of the "evidence" against Pelor: The first is most obvious from a Metagame perspective, but there's a famous module called "A Paladin In Hell" where the Paladin in question is dead, and at his funeral, devils show up and kidnap him and his soul. The second is more trivial fridge logic: the paladin went on a holy quest to battle evil at its heart and got in over his head, and Pelor rewarded four Solars for rescuing him. Or sent them. Pelor is NG, not LG, so even if the Pact Primeval is all that Asmodeus claims it is, Pelor is only marginally bound by it and can violate precepts of Law for Good. Such as rescuing a noble Paladin.

No, I think having the Malconvoker be a mortal contrivance that really is dancing the line (yes, dedicated to Pelor in her own heart, but dangerously close to slipping all the way to evil if she forgets and uses her fiends for anything but very clearly good goals) makes more sense. It is an arcane caster, after all. A witch hunt for arcane casters sponsored by Pelor? Or was it a quest to take down evil spellcasters which got twisted by mortals of less-than-good alignment, but still has faithful and good people in it that Pelor supports as long as they don't turn to darkness, themselves?

Secret texts which draw into question the Church of Pelor's very purpose? Or the culmination of a brilliant coup by deceitful fiends seeking to destroy the faith of the most powerful of Pelor's mortal servants? I mean, it doesn't even have to be all made up...just carefully curated and presented to spin it in a bad light.

From a metanarrative standpoint, I don't doubt there are some writers who think themselves clever for "subverting" Pelor with this "twist." Personally, I don't think so highly of it, and find it to be a tired and overused trope in and of itself.

[AnimeTheCat]

I'm of the opinion that "subversions" like this are not the unique twists people tend to think they are, especially given how frequently the Not-Catholic Church of a setting turns out to be a corrupt den of villainy that is secretly the illuminati controlling the world in fiction these days. It's almost a surprise to find The Church is actually good and holy and earnest in its righteous goals.

*SNIP*

From a metanarrative standpoint, I don't doubt there are some writers who think themselves clever for "subverting" Pelor with this "twist." Personally, I don't think so highly of it, and find it to be a tired and overused trope in and of itself.

Just shortened it for brevity's sake, but yeah. I agree with you on all of that. I see how others can view it the other way, but then when I look at the vast number of editing errors and problems with the lore of the deities across the editions and even across the books alone from just 3.x, I'm a lot less convinced or entertained.

[MisterKaws]

For me it personally just feels weird having so many selfless gods who just want to spread love and cute things and rainbows all around. This is a Greek-like pantheon with humanized gods, and yet the Good gods are presented as such altruistic deities. It's far nicer to think of them as having a secret agenda. At least the racial gods have a reason for being nice to their descendants.

And Heroineus is just Good to spite his Evil twin.

[Segev]

For me it personally just feels weird having so many selfless gods who just want to spread love and cute things and rainbows all around. This is a Greek-like pantheon with humanized gods, and yet the Good gods are presented as such altruistic deities. It's far nicer to think of them as having a secret agenda. At least the racial gods have a reason for being nice to their descendants.

And Heroineus is just Good to spite his Evil twin.

Except that, if you're using the Planescape cosmology, the Good for Goodness's Sake gods are exactly what you should be seeing. They don't have to be selflessly samey, either. Good isn't monolithic, and good people can have divergent interests. Pelor is into light and has a passion for putting undead to rest. Ellistrae is all about dancing and freedom and love. Bahamut really likes treasure, and adventure, and is oddly impish for an LG deity with a tendency to go do things that his advisors would prefer he not (especially since they have to dress up as canaries while he plays mysterious old man/hero).

It's a common fallacy to assume that good equates to boring. But it needn't. Jean-Luc Picard, Professor Xavier, that Timelord Doctor, Steve Rogers, Mister Rogers, and Naruto are all Good People. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say they're all the same. But they're all near-paragons of Good, and it isn't their flaws that make the biggest differences nor even the most interesting quirks about them.

[MisterKaws]

I guess I'm just too deep in the rabbit hole that is Chaotic Neutral.


that Timelord Doctor

I see what you did there.

[Segev]

I see what you did there.

Heh. I had to differentiate from the Doctor from Star Trek who also lacks any other name. Though, to be fair, he's also a pretty unambiguously good guy.