Need advice on a Ranger/Cleric/Rogue Melee build.

[Man_Over_Game]

Expanding on the title, I want to make a build that uses the weapon cantrips (booming blade, greenflame blade) with a whip. As a secondary goal, I want to be able to solve a lot of small problems, so multiple cantrips and skills are a major plus.

I understand that Spell sniper will be required, which also requires attack spells to be available. Total, this means that:

I'd have to start as a Variant Human (to get spell sniper)
I'd have to start as a full caster (to be eligible to pick up spell sniper at level 1)
I'd have to pick up proficiency into the Whip (probably from Ranger).


Since I'm focusing on attacking with these close-ranged cantrips, I should probably be slightly tanky, and I should avoid picking up Extra Attack. I do like the idea of taking enough levels into Ranger to get some of the Bonus-action spells (like Entangling Strike) to tack on to my Whip attack, but not enough to warrant needing the Extra Attack.

I also like the idea of having relatively high Wisdom and rarely using my Bonus Action for features (as I'll be casting Ranger spells with my abundance of level 1 slots, while also considering things like Healing Word), so something like the Horizon Walker probably wouldn't work.

My strategy is to focus most of my levels into Rogue, so that I don't have to worry about trying to make the most out of Cleric casting that gets in the way of casting my cantrips. Rather, I want my character to revolve around casting these cantrips well, rather than having to use them as a fallback plan, and Rogue seems to do this well. The Rogue's Cunning Actions are also very circumstantial with a whip's reach, so I don't actually have to worry about my Bonus Action being used for it very regularly.

So far, my strategy consists of:

Arcane Cleric 1 (Variant Human, Spell Sniper)
Ranger 1
Ranger 2
Ranger 3 (Monster Slayer)
Ranger 4 (Unknown Feat/ASI)
Rogue X (Inquisitive)




My questions:

Is it worth taking Ranger to level 4, or should I just leave it at the minimum of level 2?
Will my damage be viable at level 5?
What weaknesses do you see with a build like this, and how do you recommend fixing it?
Is there another solution that solves most of my concerns?

[Keravath]

I'm not sure what you are getting from the ranger and cleric parts of the build.

If you want a booming blade melee build you could just go arcane trickster rogue and pick booming blade at level 3.

If the whip usage is important then you could start with a level in war cleric/tempest cleric/hexblade warlock or something that gives you martial weapon proficiency.

Hexblade warlock would give you some extra cantrips and you could start with booming blade and spell sniper if you wanted. Switch to rogue at level 2 for the rest of your levels if you just want the booming blade 1 attack/rd thing. If you go arcane trickster you can pick up a familiar for help action advantage since the hide trick doesn't work in melee with most DMs. (Alternatively both chain and tome pact warlocks will give you the familiar ... though you also pick up the darkness+devils sight method of gaining advantage).

I've found that as a rogue, you want to have as many ways of generating advantage yourself as you can get. Sometimes the actions of your other party members will do something to give you advantage but it isn't reliable and happens far less often, in my experience, than most rogues would hope for.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm not sure what you are getting from the ranger and cleric parts of the build.

If you want a booming blade melee build you could just go arcane trickster rogue and pick booming blade at level 3.

If the whip usage is important then you could start with a level in war cleric/tempest cleric/hexblade warlock or something that gives you martial weapon proficiency.

Hexblade warlock would give you some extra cantrips and you could start with booming blade and spell sniper if you wanted. Switch to rogue at level 2 for the rest of your levels if you just want the booming blade 1 attack/rd thing. If you go arcane trickster you can pick up a familiar for help action advantage since the hide trick doesn't work in melee with most DMs. (Alternatively both chain and tome pact warlocks will give you the familiar ... though you also pick up the darkness+devils sight method of gaining advantage).

I've found that as a rogue, you want to have as many ways of generating advantage yourself as you can get. Sometimes the actions of your other party members will do something to give you advantage but it isn't reliable and happens far less often, in my experience, than most rogues would hope for.

The Cleric gets me spell slots, more cantrips than anything else, Healing Word.

The level into Ranger gets me the whip proficiency and Ranger spells (which kinda work with the design).

You are probably right with the fact that Hexblade would probably do it better from an optimized approach, but I want to avoid the whole "dark edgelord" concept altogether. I'm also kinda burnt out on Warlocks, and I haven't really played much with Clerics or Rangers.

[Rukelnikov]

I don't really see the point in taking Arcana Cleric, your build is 3rd lvl caster which means you only get 3 lvl 1 and 2 lvl 2 slots, that's not even close to enough to have Ensaring Strike be your go to tactic.

Warlock would work much better, and if you are willing to commit 4 lvls into ranger for Ensaring Strike alone, Ancients Paladin would get you that plus smite.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't really see the point in taking Arcana Cleric, your build is 3rd lvl caster which means you only get 3 lvl 1 and 2 lvl 2 slots, that's not even close to enough to have Ensaring Strike be your go to tactic.

Warlock would work much better, and if you are willing to commit 4 lvls into ranger for Ensaring Strike alone, Ancients Paladin would get you that plus smite.

I guess part of it is to diversify away from the constant Charisma builds. Was just hoping to create something unique that's still playable.

[Nhorianscum]

I'm more of a fan of the charger feat on whiprouges but we can combine spell sniper with this easily enough.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hmm.. Just to get an idea of where people are coming from, what's the playstyle difference between these two builds?:

Build 1 (My build)

Arcana Cleric 1
Ranger 1
Ranger 2
Ranger 3 (Monster Slayer)
Ranger 4
Rogue 1



Build 2 (Rogue Focused)

Arcana 1
Rogue 2
Rogue 3 (Inquisitive)
Rogue 4
Rogue 5
Rogue 6

[Xetheral]

I have experience with a similar build: an Arcana Cleric/Thief Rogue/Battlemaster fighter that is working out even better than I expected. The character started as Cleric 1/Rogue 3/Fighter 1 (the fighter was for Archery style and Net proficiency) and is now a Cleric 1/Rogue 5/Fighter 5. It has been exciting to play at every level.

Substituting Ranger for Fighter should work well too, trading maneuvers for better spellcasting. I'd recommend going with Hunter Ranger for Horde Breaker, since it can trigger off of Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade. Don't worry too much about avoiding Extra Attack--it will be useful when you need to fall back on ranged attacks.

[stoutstien]

The BB, spell sniper, whip combo is so solid you hardly have to worry about the rest of your final concept. You can spend the rest of the game broading your utility and support and hold your own in damage

[CheddarChampion]

If you aren't tied to the ranger, how about something a bit different?
Rogue 1
Cleric 1
Rogue X
With your Vuman feat take weapon master, or pick a race that gives you martial weapons (hobgoblin, but that's a bad fit stat wise...).
Once you get to level 5, which would be Rogue 4, you can pick up spell sniper. IMO prior to level 5 BB doesn't add a lot anyway.

You could add as much Cleric as you want when/if you get to a high level. I'd keep it to 3 or 5 levels max.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Ranger works fine here, as long as you recognize that you should be carefull with spell slots (shouldnt be too hard on a cantrip based build) then you're good to go.

Hunter ranger is likely the one that works best since it doesn't eat your bonus action and it works throughout the combat instead of first turn only.


Im guessing Rogue is just there for sneak attack. Which is fine since you're focused on one attack per turn and adding bunch of riders on it.


I don't see anything wrong with the build given your goals and reluctance for the charisma based builds (i feel you on that btw). If you could somehow make this int based you might be able to switch levels up for Bladesinger. Not sure if UA is allowed for you but Battle Smith artifcer would work wonders here, wont even need to be Ranger/Cleric anymore. Could instead of Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger/Battlesmith and be a cool elf with a nice whip.

[Rukelnikov]

I guess part of it is to diversify away from the constant Charisma builds. Was just hoping to create something unique that's still playable.

Reasonable, but still doesn't fix you not having nearly as many slots as you would need for Ensaring Strikes as your bread and butter.

Also take into account that you only have one attack to deliver your Sneak Attack, I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'd say Zephyr Strike would likely yield much better DPR, although I imagine the idea is using ES with a whip in big part because of the coolness of it, in that case go ahead its pretty cool.


Hmm.. Just to get an idea of where people are coming from, what's the playstyle difference between these two builds?:

Build 1 (My build)

Arcana Cleric 1
Ranger 1
Ranger 2
Ranger 3 (Monster Slayer)
Ranger 4
Rogue 1



Build 2 (Rogue Focused)

Arcana 1
Rogue 2
Rogue 3 (Inquisitive)
Rogue 4
Rogue 5
Rogue 6


The playstyle difference? It's 100% in the BA usage

Ranger:
If I can get SA without using Insightful Fighting

>> if the encounter is worth spending one of my 6 slots and I have slots
>>>> Ensaring Strike

>> else if current target doesn't have Slayer's Prey
>>>> Slayer's Prey

>> else
>>>> Cunning Action

else
>>Insightful Fighting

**********

Non-Ranger:

If I can get SA without using Insightful Fighting
>> Cunning Action
else
>>Insightful Fighting

[Nagog]

So what is the purpose of Spell Sniper in this build? Is that a requirement to using these spell cantrips on a ranged weapon? If not, I'd suggest picking up the Magic Initiate feat on a variant human to grab those cantrips and then class into any class that has martial weapons prof. Past that, you could pick up levels in whatever class you'd like for the tankiness/damage, although from what you're describing I'd have to agree with the other posters here and go with Monster Hunter Ranger or the rogue, whichever you feel your character fits best.

All in all, Magic Initiate with a Martial Class is probably the best way to go to get the cantrip/whip combo up and running quickly.



You know, now that I look at it.... You're totally building one of the Belmonts, aren't you?

[Man_Over_Game]

So what is the purpose of Spell Sniper in this build? Is that a requirement to using these spell cantrips on a ranged weapon? If not, I'd suggest picking up the Magic Initiate feat on a variant human to grab those cantrips and then class into any class that has martial weapons prof. Past that, you could pick up levels in whatever class you'd like for the tankiness/damage, although from what you're describing I'd have to agree with the other posters here and go with Monster Hunter Ranger or the rogue, whichever you feel your character fits best.

All in all, Magic Initiate with a Martial Class is probably the best way to go to get the cantrip/whip combo up and running quickly.



You know, now that I look at it.... You're totally building one of the Belmonts, aren't you?

Spell Sniper is needed to cast Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade past 5 feet, as they have a 5ft range. So even if you landed a whip at 10 feet without SS, you wouldn't be eligible to cast the spell.

My overall goal was just to make an Inquisitor who's job it was to research and stop monsters. Like a combat-light Witcher.

And while I wasn't explicitly trying to build a Belmont, that's now canon. I am building a Belmont.

[Rukelnikov]

So what is the purpose of Spell Sniper in this build? Is that a requirement to using these spell cantrips on a ranged weapon?

Yeah, BB and GFB have 5 ft reach, so you can't use the whips 10 ft. reach with it, spell sniper ups it to 10 ft. (A Sorcerer could increase this to 20 ft!)


You know, now that I look at it.... You're totally building one of the Belmonts, aren't you?

Now that's interesting... Paladin would definitely fit!

[Nagog]

Spell Sniper is needed to cast Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade past 5 feet, as they have a 5ft range. So even if you landed a whip at 10 feet without SS, you wouldn't be eligible to cast the spell.

My overall goal was just to make an Inquisitor who's job it was to research and stop monsters. Like a combat-light Witcher.

And while I wasn't explicitly trying to build a Belmont, that's now canon. I am building a Belmont.

Good to know! In that case, the Spell Sniper Arcane Domain Cleric is probably the best way to get it quickly and remain HP tanky. If your DM is OK with it, you could look into running a Varient Human as a Bladesong Wizard with the Snake.. Specialty? idk what they call that, but it mentions the snake type being proficient with Whips in the subclass description, so at that point the only thing to worry about is if your DM is ok with a non-elf taking a subclass that's normally reserved for those of elvish blood. Most DMs I've talked to and play with don't usually racially gate things like that. Also, with that you'd only need to boost your Int and Dex, both for whip attacks and defense with Dex and spells and Unarmored Defense under Int. This class could also give you some good stats for Knowedge Nature and Arcana to build into an experienced monster hunter. Anything past the 1st level required for that would be into Cleric or Ranger to give them more of an Inquisitor vibe. For hunting monsters, definitely go Ranger for Hunters mark.

[Nagog]

Another thing that just occurred to me, the prerequisite for Spell Sniper is the ability to cast at least one spell, however it isn't specified that it come from your class. With the race obviously being Varient Human, it couldn't come from there, so does anybody know if there are any backgrounds that grant access to a spell, even a once a day spell?

[Man_Over_Game]

Another thing that just occurred to me, the prerequisite for Spell Sniper is the ability to cast at least one spell, however it isn't specified that it come from your class. With the race obviously being Varient Human, it couldn't come from there, so does anybody know if there are any backgrounds that grant access to a spell, even a once a day spell?

No official backgrounds can do that. However, there are a few backgrounds in the Eberron book that might provide something like that, but I'm not sure.

On a weird note, though, Sun Soul Monks can take the feat after level 6.

[Nagog]

No official backgrounds can do that. However, there are a few backgrounds in the Eberron book that might provide something like that, but I'm not sure.

On a weird note, though, Sun Soul Monks can take the feat after level 6.

Do they get spells? Spellcasting monks just sounds kinda... strange. Even though theres quite a few subclasses that give you some form of spells or spell-like abilities, the concept just seems kinda... off. Perhaps the understanding level between mysticism and arcana. Anyway, that's a tangent.

With the spell sniper feat granting you a cantrip that requires an attack roll, which do you think you'd take for that? If you already have the ones for the sorcerer/wizard list, my initial thought would be something like Eldritch Blast, but for the aesthetic perhaps something more akin to Vine Whip?

[Man_Over_Game]

Do they get spells? Spellcasting monks just sounds kinda... strange. Even though theres quite a few subclasses that give you some form of spells or spell-like abilities, the concept just seems kinda... off. Perhaps the understanding level between mysticism and arcana. Anyway, that's a tangent.

With the spell sniper feat granting you a cantrip that requires an attack roll, which do you think you'd take for that? If you already have the ones for the sorcerer/wizard list, my initial thought would be something like Eldritch Blast, but for the aesthetic perhaps something more akin to Vine Whip?

It kinda depends on your DM's point of view as to what "requires" an attack roll. Personally, I like Magic Stone and Shillelagh on Monks, but both of them can be cast without "requiring" an attack roll. So Vine Whip might be more applicable.

Although, if you like the idea of mixing Warlock powers with a Monk, you should take a look at my Prestige Options homebrew. I planned a couple of the options around that exact concept (in the Warlock section).

[CTurbo]

I don't really see Ranger as necessary here. You can be a vhuman Tempest Cleric with Spell Sniper at level 1 and immediately start using Booming Blade with at whip from the start. I've done this and it was a very fun character. Then you can add in some Rogue levels whenever you want.

Of course Ranger WOULD fit in well if you want. I'd probably go Hunter for Colossus Slayer though. I'd rather just stick Cleric/Rogue.

[Nagog]

I don't really see Ranger as necessary here. You can be a vhuman Tempest Cleric with Spell Sniper at level 1 and immediately start using Booming Blade with at whip from the start. I've done this and it was a very fun character. Then you can add in some Rogue levels whenever you want.

Of course Ranger WOULD fit in well if you want. I'd probably go Hunter for Colossus Slayer though. I'd rather just stick Cleric/Rogue.

The point of being Arcana Cleric is to gain access to both Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, rather than having to choose between the two for other domains/classes, while remaining tanky (unlike Sorc or Wiz who are wet tissue paper in comparison). Ranger fits the aesthetic of the class of being a monster hunter, as well as makes good use of the Bonus Action to buff the attacks with spells/abilities. While Tempest Cleric would work for Booming Blade, the other options are left out.