Multiclass Initiator question

[schreier]

Let's say you have a: Barbarian 2 / Ranger 2 / Warblade 1 / Fighter 1 / Swordsage 2 / ...

As a warblade 1, you have: 3 Maneuvers known, 3 Maneuvers readied ... the maneuvers are from Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. In this example, you are initiator level 3 warblade - so lets take Disarming Strike (Iron Heart 2), Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon 2), Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw 1)

Let's say you take your fighter 1 feat as Martial Study, taking Crusader's Strike

As a swordsage 2, you have: 7 Maneuvers known, 4 Maneuvers readied ... the maneuvers are from Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw
For this example, you were level 4 and 5 initiator, so we'll take: Burning Ember (Desert 1), Moment of the Perfect Mind (Diamond 1), Sudden Leap (Tiger 1), Counter Charge (Setting Sun 1), Mighty Throw (Setting Sun 1), Action Before Thought (Diamond 2), and Flesh Ripper (Tiger 3)

So both have: Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw
Swordsage has exclusive access to: Desert Wind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand
Warblade has exclusive access to: Iron Hart, White Raven

Can you only ready the maneuvers you took in that class under that class's maneuvers? Or is it any that you qualify in that class (For example - moment of the perfect mind, taken in swordsage - can you ready that in warblade?). What about the feat Martial Study? Do you have the declare the class under which you learned the maneuver?

What if you took a prestige class - like Jade Phoenix Mage - do you pick the class you get that maneuver under, or is it either?

[MisterKaws]

Can you only ready the maneuvers you took in that class under that class's maneuvers?

What about the feat Martial Study? Do you have the declare the class under which you learned the maneuver?

What if you took a prestige class - like Jade Phoenix Mage - do you pick the class you get that maneuver under[...]?

Yes to all of that.

[Venger]

Can you only ready the maneuvers you took in that class under that class's maneuvers?
Yes

Or is it any that you qualify in that class (For example - moment of the perfect mind, taken in swordsage - can you ready that in warblade?).
no

What about the feat Martial Study? Do you have the declare the class under which you learned the maneuver?
yes


What if you took a prestige class - like Jade Phoenix Mage - do you pick the class you get that maneuver under, or is it either?
you pick a class.

[Efrate]

Maneuvers known can serve as prereqs for another classes maneuvers however. For that instance it doesn't matter where the maneuver comes from to count as a maneuver known: items (generally assumed to be ok but debatable), martial study, or another initiator class.

[HouseRules]

items (generally assumed to be ok but debatable)

If you lose the item, you lose the prerequisite, and thus lost the gained ability (the ability to use the ability actually), until you re-qualify.

[schreier]

Can you take the same maneuver in multiple classes then? If you have a particular need (moment of perfect mind with a weak will save), it could be worth it since you might not be able too refresh before needing it again. What about through an item? Does the item link to a class like the feat? Can the item provide a maneuver already known in one class up the other?

[MisterKaws]

Can you take the same maneuver in multiple classes then? If you have a particular need (moment of perfect mind with a weak will save), it could be worth it since you might not be able too refresh before needing it again. What about through an item? Does the item link to a class like the feat? Can the item provide a maneuver already known in one class up the other?

You can add Fly as a known spell to your Sorcerer list and then to your Favored One list, then take Shape Soulmeld(Airstep Sandals), then wear Wings of Flying.

All these while being an Avoran Dragonborn with the Wings aspect.

[Crake]

If you lose the item, you lose the prerequisite, and thus lost the gained ability (the ability to use the ability actually), until you re-qualify.

More often than not, using an item to qualify will then make you self qualify, since a known maneuver counts toward it's own prerequisite. If, however, you trade out other maneuvers that were once used to help qualify, you may enter a situation where you cascade to a point where you can no longer re-qualify, even if you gain the item back.

Take the following example, say you want Ancient Mountain Hammer, which requires 3 stone dragon maneuvers. So naturally you start with Mountain Hammer, and then you grab Stone Dragon's fury, which requires you know at least 1 maneuver. Then you get Elder Mountain hammer, which requires that you know 2 maneuvers. A this point you have 3 maneuvers, so you trade out mountain hammer for something else, dropping you back down to 2 maneuvers, at which point you realise, damn, I need another stone dragon maneuver to get Ancient Mountain Hammer, so you grab an item that gives you Mountain Avalanche, another maneuver that requires 2 stone dragon maneuvers, and finally manage to snag Ancient Mountain Hammer.

At this point, you have a maneuver that requires 1 known maneuver, another that requires 2, and a last one that requires 3, plus the item's maneuver. At this point, if you were to lose the item, it would be no big deal, you still qualify for all your maneuvers innately. If however, you were to trade out stone dragon's fury, leaving you with elder and ancient mountain hammer, requiring 2 and 3 maneuvers respectively, plus mountain avalanche in the item, you would be in a very precarious situation. You qualify for everything, but very tenuously. If you were to lose the item, you'd only have 2 maneuvers known, which would make you lose qualification for Ancient Mountain Hammer, and thus you would lose the ability to use that maneuver, and it can no longer be used to qualify for other maneuvers until you can use it again. Now, because you lose Ancient mountain hammer, you only count as having 1 known maneuver, which means now you lose elder mountain hammer too! Leaving you with no stone dragon maneuvers. Furthermore, if you were to recover the item, you no longer qualify for mountain avalanche, as you have no known stone dragon maneuvers, so you're now left with 2 unused maneuvers known, and a useless item!

Be very careful about using an item as a lynchpin of your pre-requisite chains.

[Particle_Man]

Can you take the same maneuver in multiple classes then? If you have a particular need (moment of perfect mind with a weak will save), it could be worth it since you might not be able too refresh before needing it again. What about through an item? Does the item link to a class like the feat? Can the item provide a maneuver already known in one class up the other?

I don't think so. In fact, I think that is the point of the idiot crusader builds (the ones where your avilable maneuvers to know run out so that they are all granted every turn, or something like that). If I am wrong, yes, Moment of Perfect Mind is a great maneuver to take multiple times. See also White Raven Tactics.

[schreier]

I was guessing no as well. .. seems different than spells for two classes, as the maneuvers serve as prereqs for other class maneuvers.

[Venger]

I was guessing no as well. .. seems different than spells for two classes, as the maneuvers serve as prereqs for other class maneuvers.

Just to be clear, that is how it works. For disciplines you have some of through multiple classes (let's say stone dragon, which all 3 classes can access) when you are looking at prereqs (e.g. "must know 2 stone dragon maneuvers") it's asking about your sum total of known maneuvers from all classes you may have in addition to martial study.

[Particle_Man]

I could see it working for prerequisites but also see that you cannot take the exact same maneuver twice or three times or more even if you have two or three base initiator classes and/or took the martial study feat. Basically I would not allow a warblade/swordsage to get two copies of moment of perfect mind. But if there was one diamond mind maneuver known on the swordsage side and another different one on the warblade side then, if high enough level, they could take hearing the air which requires two diamond mind maneuvers as prerequisites.