Monk wants to walljump between two walls. How do you rule it?

[Man_Over_Game]

You know the trope, where a martial artist jumps between two walls and gets to a higher position.

So say we have three separate Monks:

Level 8, uses Step of the Wind (x2 jump).

Level 9, can run up walls. Does not use Step of the Wind.

Level 9, can run up walls, uses Step of the Wind.

So...how would you rule these three possible scenarios, and what makes them different (if anything)?

[Rynjin]

If one can run up walls already, isn't wall jumping just flavor at that point? You should just let them describe it as such since it has no discernible mechanical impact I can think of not already covered by being able to run up a vertical surface.

In the case of the guy who can double jump but NOT climb walls, I'd probably call for an Athletics check (or Acrobatics in other editions) at a reasonable DC set by how close the walls are to each other.

With only two jumps I'd say getting up somewhere between 10 and 20 feet should be pretty easy, while higher would require commensurately higher check results.

[Blood of Gaea]

Assuming the walls are within jumping distance of your standing long jump, I'd have it start at a DC 5 Athletics check, and increase by 5 for each jump.

If you can run up walls and are still within non-rolling jump distance, no roll, just do it.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Given that there's an area where they can actually do it, treat it like climbing, since that's essentially what they're doing. So ordinarily, that's half speed. But, they're also utilizing their skill at jumping to do this- so if they're using Step of the Wind, I'd let them climb at full speed. Same with any scenario where they can run up walls innately.

[Man_Over_Game]

I guess I should have clarified, I'm not looking for how the RAW game would have the scenario play out, I'm asking about how YOU would rule it.

That is, at your table, what would YOU do. Because I want the three scenarios to be different, but I want to know if it's warranted enough to do so, and how others would go about doing it if it was.

[Xeko]

Well, keep in mind, Monks also have Slow Fall. The rules for fall damage is 1d6 for every 10 feet, to a maximum of 20d6. Slow Fall reduces falling damage by 5 times Monk level. That means, a mid-level character should be able to fall from 60+ feet, without any risk whatsoever (60 feet is 6d6 damage, or an absolute maximum of 36, while a level 7 Monk can negate 35 falling damage). My group actually had an encounter like that just last session, with a 40 foot sheer cliff and a level 8 Monk. The DC rating for climbing the cliff was remarkably high, but at the same time, there was no possible way that the Monk could take damage, should they fail the climb. So, if they did fail, they could just start again, with no risk or penalty whatsoever, aside from time having passed. And if you are in a scenario where there is no actual risk involved, why even bother rolling at all? I mean, if you're dealing with a super strict DM, you might need to roll, to determine just how much time you're wasting trying over and over again to get up... but, eventually you're going to get it, so I would just allow it to happen, with no roll at all. And all of that is regarding just a single surface, a cliff face. If you had two opposing walls to jump between, I imagine the climb only becomes that much easier. So, yeah, I wouldn't see any reason not to just let the player describe their ascent however they wish, provided they don't go too over the top with it.

Now, if it were say, a 100 foot cliff... well, that is a different matter.

[Sigreid]

This is something people who aren't really physically extraordinary can and do do. I'd let any character attempt an athletics check with a DC set based on how far apart the walls are.

[bid]

Walljumping is the level 9 feature. Step of the wind is useful if the wall starts 6 feet up. The only "allowance" is running 10 feet up is enough for a running jump.

So you could step-of-wind/dash, move 10', jump 6 feet to reach the wall, run up 10 feet and jump another 6 feet above the top of the wall. That's 32 of your 90 feet of movement.

[Kyutaru]

Somehow I don't think wall jumping is a skill that people just arbitrarily attempt on the fly and then magically succeed at because the dice said they can. Either they've trained at wall jumping or they haven't. If they have, it's a basic acrobatic skill. If they haven't, no amount of dice fudging is going to get them to ascend the wall. This is just climbing to a monk, it should be treated as such and get the reduced move speed. Of course since monks have all these bonuses to speed that probably won't stop them.

Step of the Wind may help the jumping part so doubling your movement cost then doubling your jump distance would leave your movement speed neutral. I'd just let them climb without the move penalty.

[Man_Over_Game]

So, according to most people:

Level 8, uses Step of the Wind (x2 jump):

Basically is Climbing with no movement speed penalty, but can still be Dashing. So they could technically move 80 or so feet up the wall.
Acrobatics checks might be applied.



Level 9, can run up walls. Does not use Step of the Wind.

Can already run up walls, no benefit to wall jump.



Level 9, can run up walls, uses Step of the Wind.

Can already run up walls, no benefit to wall jump.


Anybody else got any opposing suggestions?

[Xeko]

Well, at level 9, Monks can just run straight up walls, no jumping back and forth required. So the people trying to figure out the interactions between different mid to high level abilities are making it way more complicated than it needs to be. I would just call it a climb check, with the DC set by how far apart the walls are. And, if it were me personally, I would even forgo the roll all together, if the height of the climb was within the range at which point Slow Fall would negate all potential fall damage, thus eliminating any actual penalties for failure.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well, at level 9, Monks can just run straight up walls, no jumping back and forth required. So the people trying to figure out the interactions between different mid to high level abilities are making it way more complicated than it needs to be. I would just call it a climb check, with the DC set by how far apart the walls are. And, if it were me personally, I would even forgo the roll all together, if the height of the climb was within the range at which point Slow Fall would negate all potential fall damage, thus eliminating any actual penalties for failure.

Loss of a turn/Ki point could be considered its own form of failure, especially in a combat scenario.

[Xeko]

Loss of a turn/Ki point could be considered its own form of failure, especially in a combat scenario.

Well that is definitely true, sorry, I was approaching this from an out of combat perspective, where turns aren't really relevant.

[Waterdeep Merch]

So, according to most people:

Level 8, uses Step of the Wind (x2 jump):

Basically is Climbing with no movement speed penalty, but can still be Dashing. So they could technically move 80 or so feet up the wall.
Acrobatics checks might be applied.



Level 9, can run up walls. Does not use Step of the Wind.

Can already run up walls, no benefit to wall jump.



Level 9, can run up walls, uses Step of the Wind.

Can already run up walls, no benefit to wall jump.


Anybody else got any opposing suggestions?

That all looks right to me. Monks are quasi-magical anyway, it's nice to let them break physics in true wuxia fashion.

[Lunali]

Climbing, including wall jumping, should be athletics. Acrobatics should be used for things where flexibility and balance are the key factors.

[Nagog]

I guess I should have clarified, I'm not looking for how the RAW game would have the scenario play out, I'm asking about how YOU would rule it.

That is, at your table, what would YOU do. Because I want the three scenarios to be different, but I want to know if it's warranted enough to do so, and how others would go about doing it if it was.

I'd say with the first, have them make an Athletics check. Not Acrobatics, because the walls are (assumedly) close enough together that their normal jump distance would cover it, the issue involving a roll would be how well they can grip and hold to the wall without slipping.

With wall walking being available, I'd change it to an Athletics roll to see how quick/efficiently they can make it

With Wall Walking and Step of the Wind, I'd just let them do it. If they also want to roll Acrobatics to do something fancy with it like a flip at the top, go for it. It'd make for fun shenanigans if they roll a natural 1 and faceplant all the way back down the distance they wall jumped

[bid]

Level 8, uses Step of the Wind (x2 jump):

Basically is Climbing with no movement speed penalty, but can still be Dashing. So they could technically move 80 or so feet up the wall.
Acrobatics checks might be applied.

I think that cheapens the level 9 feature, since it can already be done at level 2.

[Kyutaru]

I think that cheapens the level 9 feature, since it can already be done at level 2.

The lvl 9 feature already wasn't anything amazing since any Fighter can climb the wall at lvl 1.

[stoutstien]

No roll for me. It's a monk. They do cool monk stuff.

If the wall where more than 10 feet apart there may be an str(acrobatics) check but it would be pretty low

[AdAstra]

Frankly, I would just treat it like climbing or jumping over one of the walls, at least assuming both walls go all the way up to the top, with a different description. So, either half-speed or an ability check, or no check and full speed for lvl 9 up, or using the jumping rules. Pretty much any other way of doing it would just make it more difficult than it needs to be, both in terms of DM/player work and chance of success.
So if his jump distance is enough to clear the wall or they have enough movement to make the climb, let them describe how they do it any way they please. No need to try and combine the jumping and climbing rules to get something that would end up just being worse.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I'd let anyone make a Strength(Acrobatics) check (wearing heavy armor would impose disadvantag), A monk with 2x jump would get advantage on the roll, and a level 9 monk would automatically succeed.

I'd let a player do a Dexterity (Athletic) check if that was their preference.

My reasoning is that speed, balance, and strength would all play a role in the action.

[stoutstien]

I'd let anyone make a Strength(Acrobatics) check (wearing heavy armor would impose disadvantag), A monk with 2x jump would get advantage on the roll, and a level 9 monk would automatically succeed.

I'd let a player do a Dexterity (Athletic) check if that was their preference.

My reasoning is that speed, balance, and strength would all play a role in the action.
I dont Understand the reasoning of the disadvantage due to heavy armor. There isn't even a check involved with swimming in it.
It already has a huge disadvantage with cost don and doff time, and stat requirements it doesn't need any more hoops to jump through

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I dont Understand the reasoning of the disadvantage due to heavy armor. There isn't even a check involved with swimming in it.
It already has a huge disadvantage with cost don and doff time, and stat requirements it doesn't need any more hoops to jump through
I would require a Strength or Constitution (Athletics) check to swim with anything that has the heavy tag.

Part of the fun of D&D is the problem solving. If everyone solves the problem the same way then the game loses something. You can hand wave the Kight in Shining Armor crossing the river, but you are losing an opportunity. What could they have found if they wandered down the river in search of a crossing? How happy would that Folk Hero be to actually use his Carpenter's tools to make a crude canoe/raft? And hey, if that Knight wants to be pig headed and try to swim with disadvantage, he probably has the modifiers to succeed even if he rolls poorly anyway.

[Zetakya]

The first question you need to answer is how this would work if it was someone who wasn't a Monk trying to do it.

Answer the general question first and then apply the specific class abilities.

EDIT: However the Level 9 Unarmoured Movement doesn't allow you to run up walls, it only allows you to run laterally along them ("vertical surfaces", anyway) without losing height.

[stoutstien]

I would require a Strength or Constitution (Athletics) check to swim with anything that has the heavy tag.

Part of the fun of D&D is the problem solving. If everyone solves the problem the same way then the game loses something. You can hand wave the Kight in Shining Armor crossing the river, but you are losing an opportunity. What could they have found if they wandered down the river in search of a crossing? How happy would that Folk Hero be to actually use his Carpenter's tools to make a crude canoe/raft? And hey, if that Knight wants to be pig headed and try to swim with disadvantage, he probably has the modifiers to succeed even if he rolls poorly anyway.

Unless there is a wall on the other side, the knight in shining armor can clear most rivers with a running jump.

[Lunali]

Unless there is a wall on the other side, the knight in shining armor can clear most rivers with a running jump.

I'll grant that most rivers I've encountered in DND have been narrow enough for someone to jump. But that says more about the way DMs make a rivers than jumping ability. In reality, a river 20ft wide can barely be called a river, hundreds of feet would be more likely.

[stoutstien]

I'll grant that most rivers I've encountered in DND have been narrow enough for someone to jump. But that says more about the way DMs make a rivers than jumping ability. In reality, a river 20ft wide can barely be called a river, hundreds of feet would be more likely.

Fair. Even if the knight just does a unstoppable Force if good move and walk across the bottom of the river. At half movement they can use action to dash and still get up to 60 feet around and can hold their breath for round equal to con modifier. Good chance they dumped int either way

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Fair. Even if the knight just does a unstoppable Force if good move and walk across the bottom of the river. At half movement they can use action to dash and still get up to 60 feet around and can hold their breath for round equal to con modifier. Good chance they dumped int either way

Rivers are really big in my setting. The major power on the continent rose to dominance by seizing the waterways and building superb Canal systems. Most are 100-200 ft.

Swiming a river is swimming in difficult terrain so even with dash you are only moving 15ft per round. If they want to flavor it as walking on the bottom that's fine, but mechanically they are swimming. If the have anything less than 18 in Constitution they probably won't make it.

I think we have strayed pretty far from the topic though lol

[DualShadow]

I'm no parkour expert but it is doable as demonstrated on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS6vh-DJCV0). So add in some monk shenanigans and I wouldn't make it too hard for a decently trained monk.

[Zobo]

I would do a series of not too hard athletics checks.

DC maybe 8 for even but not slippery walls, +2 for somewhat uneven
surface, +4 for very uneven, +4 for slippery, +10 for moist ice.
The more you jump, the more chances you get to roll that fail,
even if it's only on a one.

If you can't climb walls, failure means fall.

If you can, one means your progress halts for a bit.

Speed would certainly be faster than climbing speed.

[sophontteks]

I would require a Strength or Constitution (Athletics) check to swim with anything that has the heavy tag.

Part of the fun of D&D is the problem solving. If everyone solves the problem the same way then the game loses something. You can hand wave the Kight in Shining Armor crossing the river, but you are losing an opportunity. What could they have found if they wandered down the river in search of a crossing? How happy would that Folk Hero be to actually use his Carpenter's tools to make a crude canoe/raft? And hey, if that Knight wants to be pig headed and try to swim with disadvantage, he probably has the modifiers to succeed even if he rolls poorly anyway.
Never play strength builds at your table.
Problem solved.

[Keravath]

The first question you need to answer is how this would work if it was someone who wasn't a Monk trying to do it.

Answer the general question first and then apply the specific class abilities.

EDIT: However the Level 9 Unarmoured Movement doesn't allow you to run up walls, it only allows you to run laterally along them ("vertical surfaces", anyway) without losing height.

"At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move."

Personally, I interpret that rule to mean up/down/across or otherwise move however the monk would like on a vertical surface. I can see how someone might interpret "along" to mean only at a specific height (which makes the ability almost entirely useless) but I would not agree with that interpretation and I suspect most would not though I could be wrong.

[Nhorianscum]

So, according to most people:

Level 8, uses Step of the Wind (x2 jump):

Basically is Climbing with no movement speed penalty, but can still be Dashing. So they could technically move 80 or so feet up the wall.
Acrobatics checks might be applied.



Level 9, can run up walls. Does not use Step of the Wind.

Can already run up walls, no benefit to wall jump.



Level 9, can run up walls, uses Step of the Wind.

Can already run up walls, no benefit to wall jump.


Anybody else got any opposing suggestions?

I'd rule it as a setpeice in combat by the WGTE variant.

Disadvantage on attack rolls against the bouncy monk and 1 jump worth of movement for their action or bonus action (so 2 full jumps if they full round this) in vertical move.

If they want to do anything else in that round I'd allow a DC X acrobatic check based on the action to see if they can spare attention for this act. Example: An attack might be DC15. Failing by 4 or less attack at disadvantage, fail by 5 or more no attack, succeed by more than 5 gives advantage.

9+ We're just making an acrobatics check to see if their secondary action happens and if so how well it works.

[Man_Over_Game]

The first question you need to answer is how this would work if it was someone who wasn't a Monk trying to do it.

Answer the general question first and then apply the specific class abilities.


I'm no parkour expert but it is doable as demonstrated on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS6vh-DJCV0). So add in some monk shenanigans and I wouldn't make it too hard for a decently trained monk.

These are some valid points, and ones I want to take to heart.

I personally feel that every investment should have value. That is, every time something is working in your favor, it should provide something favorable.

For example, the circumstance for jumping between two walls is more conditional (and more favorable) than climbing a single wall. So, to address that, I'd say that a single wall has to be challenged with Athletics checks, but two walls can be challenged with either Athletics or Acrobatics, as long as they're within horizontal jumping distance. However, it's still considered "climbing", and otherwise will be ruled as such. Normally, the horizontal movement across the gaps would be tracked, but I consider this the cost of the 50% climbing speed.

Next up, Step of the Wind. This naturally increases jumping distance, so it scales with the previous mention to allow larger gaps.

Lastly, level 9 wall-running feature. I'd say that, when provided a wall-jump scenario, you have Advantage on any checks or Dexterity Saving Throws made to challenge your movement. That is, if an enemy attempts to throw a boulder at you as you are running upwards, you can deftly jump to the other wall to gain Advantage on checks intended to stop you.

Which provides benefits for every possible scenario.

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However, still interested to see how other people would rule it. Just because I have a solution doesn't mean it's perfect or that there isn't something better.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Never play strength builds at your table.
Problem solved.

Oh come on, this is two very specific scenarios that have almost never come up. The Barbarian gets to feel cool when he rips the locked door off the hinges, and the monk gets to feel cool when he parkours.

Do you also get upset when your DM won't let you cast Fire Ball with Strength being your Spell Casting Ability?

[stoutstien]

Oh come on, this is two very specific scenarios that have almost never come up. The Barbarian gets to feel cool when he rips the locked door off the hinges, and the monk gets to feel cool when he parkours.

Do you also get upset when your DM won't let you cast Fire Ball with Strength being your Spell Casting Ability?

As I pointed out, strength based builds are are already a tad behind and is punished more due to a lot of tables allowing Dex to replace the few areas where it shines like Climbing, swimming, and so on.
When you start asking for str check for actions that are supposed to be auto pass in an attempt to validate their character choices you are further pushing str into the not worth it category.
Spending the 15 minutes to don/doff a chain mail isn't fun, rewarding, or necessary.

[Nhorianscum]

Oh come on, this is two very specific scenarios that have almost never come up. The Barbarian gets to feel cool when he rips the locked door off the hinges, and the monk gets to feel cool when he parkours.

Do you also get upset when your DM won't let you cast Fire Ball with Strength being your Spell Casting Ability?

I'll support this in the walljump scenario.

Parkoring between 2 walls is absolutely an acrobatic act. It's also a display of athletisism.

In this case we can strike a balance by considering the jump distance factored with strength base and our skill of choice heavily favors acrobatics.