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View Full Version : Optimization Best Rogue for using Scimitar of Speed.



Meichrob7
2019-06-25, 02:45 AM
The Scimitar of Speed is a decent ‘Very rare’ magic item that does 1d6 damage at base, has +2 to damage and attack rolls, and has a bonus effect that lets the user make a single attack with the weapon as a bonus action on each of their turns.

Normally this weapon is about as effective as having two +2 scimitars with the two weapon fighting style, except you get to have your second hand free.

However there’s some interesting synergy with rogues in particular that can make this weapon far more effective. Most effects that let you make an attack as a bonus action require you to first spend your action attacking(Off hand weapons, polearm master, crossbow expert), the only real exceptions (that I know of) are the frenzy rage feature and the Scimitar of Speed (and technically quickening one of the weapon attack cantrips).

If a rogue can make an attack as a bonus action without first needing to take the attack action, they’re freed up to use their action to ready an attack. By doing this they can make one attack on their turn and one attack on another turn during the round. This becomes important because the sneak attack feature is restricted to once per turn and not once per round, meaning if you attack on your own turn and then use a readied action to attack on another turn, both of the attacks will be able to do sneak attack damage if they meet the other requirements to activate sneak attack. You can also do this with opportunity attacks or if a battlemaster gives you an attack, but reading your own attack is something you can do every round.

So hypothetically if you were a level 2 rogue and you found a Scimitar of Speed, what class would be best at using/abusing the weapon?

My initial thought would be swashbuckler. They’re one of the only rogue classes that get an additional way to activate sneak attack that doesn’t require a bonus action. This is really important for a rogue with the Scimitar because their action and bonus action will be eaten up every turn so they need other sources regularly granting them advantage or ensuring the other methods of applying sneak attack happen. The only real downside is that swashbucklers don’t have great capstone abilities and the swashbuckler feature is only letting you make sneak attacks, it’s not giving you advantage so it’s pretty easy to miss still.

I think assassin doesn’t work out super well depending on how you interpret the rules of readying an action. If you can ready an action for when you end your turn I believe you could benefit from the auto crit feature twice, but I’ve often had DMS day that the character themself isn’t aware of turns passing so it needs to be something they’d actually see happen. That means you need to have your turn and someone else’s turn before your target takes a turn and loses surprise. That being said, this combo does give you advantage before they take their turn and would do disgusting damage in the first round.

Thief is kind of good later because the extra turn means you could attack with sneak attack 4 times your first turn. However there’s no reliable way to get advantage and no extra way to proc sneak attack.

Inquisitive only needs you to spend one bonus action observing the target before all your attacks can sneak attack and at level 17 those sneak attacks get even better.

Mastermind is probably the worst here because of how support focused they are, it’s not a bad class by itself but it doesn’t really do anything special with the Scimitar that the other subclasses can’t all do as well or better

Arcane trickster is nice because a familiar can be used to get advantage on at least one of your attacks each round and eventually their illusion magic would let you get advantage all the time (also something to note, they’re the only rogue class that can do this combo without any magic weapon or multiclassing because they’d eventually be able to do it with the haste spell). A benefit that arcane trickster alone has is the fact that if your illusions are hiding you to give advantage, they’re also imposing disadvantage on the enemy attacks. This is kinda really important because your readied attack is eating your reaction every round so you can’t reduce incoming damage.

Scout also wouldn’t be awful but their level 17 feature gives them an extra sneak attack the first round, which normally would double the rogue’s damage but since you can already sneak attack twice it’s comparatively less of an increase. Also it doesn’t really have much in terms of reliable ways to get advantage or extra ways to activate sneak attack.

Zhorn
2019-06-25, 03:22 AM
So hypothetically if you were a level 2 rogue and you found a Scimitar of Speed, what class would be best at using/abusing the weapon?

For your 3rd level? Multiclass into Fighter.
Rogue's are not proficient with scimitars at baseline, so unless you already have the weapon proficiency from another source, your 3rd level will need to be into something to allow you to use it.
Paladin and Rangers don't give any level 1 benefits for the scimitar
Barbarian introduces some MADness if you want to have the Multiclass for the benefit of Rage

Fighter's can Multiclass on Dex, giving on a 1st level dip the weapon proficiency and Fighting Style: Dueling (which since the Scimitar of Speed uses the Bonus action to attack, you won't need TWF).

edit: RANGER! why do I always forget this class. cheers for the reminder CTurbo.

CTurbo
2019-06-25, 05:27 AM
My Dex based Halfling Vengeance Paladin used a Scimitar of Speed (with Shield) and it was a terrific weapon with the dueling Fighting style. Level 11 I was dealing a very reliable 1d8+1d6+9 three times a round without expending any resources.

I gave one to a Hunter Ranger who also took the dueling style and used a shield so with Horde Breaker he was making 4 attacks most rounds. Very effective.



So basically, the best class for it is a class that can take Dueling style and use a shield IMO.

The best Rogue class for it would probably be the Swashbuckler. I would possibly take Moderately Armored to be able to use a shield. I think it's an underrated feat for Rogues but that's for a different thread.

solidork
2019-06-25, 07:56 AM
I would be an Arcane Trickster multiclassed into Bladesinger for the scimitar weapon proficiency.

darknite
2019-06-25, 08:39 AM
I've found Scimitar's of Speed work very well for casters because they can use their action to cast and then use their bonus action to attack with the scimitar. Most bonus-action attacks require the Attack action to be used. For example, a caster can Haste themselves with their action, use a bonus action to make a scimitar attack and then use their haste action to attack again.

Revaros
2019-06-25, 09:18 AM
Kensei Monk and Swashbuckler always struck me as interesting possibilities for a non-standard rogue weapon like a Scimitar.

Kensei gets it to be a monk weapon with extra ki damage and Swashbuckler is just generally OP for close combat rogues.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-25, 01:19 PM
On the OP's question, is there any reason you think that it SHOULDN'T be the Swashbuckler?

As an aside, I do like the idea of a Hexbladelock using it.

stoutstien
2019-06-25, 01:34 PM
This weapon is actually better for caster gish style characters. The ablity to cast with action and still attack with a bonus action is strong.

Ironheart
2019-06-25, 02:03 PM
Sorcadins love this item at lower levels in particular for the fact that you can do a resourceless attack + Booming Blade, something the sorcerer has to choose Quicken Metamagic in order to replicate without the scimitar. Having this item can *maybe* allow the Sorcadin to pick out other Metamagic options like Heightened and Empowered, and Twinned.

I also think that the Thief is your best archetype, mostly because it, like you said, doubles your sneak attack opportunities when you hold an action to make attacks not on your turn. It then gets doubled again with Thief's reflexes, although the advantage will be tricky to work out. Also, Use Magic Device is no joke in versatility

Tharkun
2019-06-25, 02:43 PM
Another option is to get a 2 level (or 3) level dip in Wizard for bladesinger. Bladeslingers get one free martial weapon proficiency as a subclass feature. I am currently noodling on a Arcane Trickster/Bladeslinger multi-class that has fun with Booming Blade & Green Flame Blade.

Meichrob7
2019-06-25, 06:33 PM
Considering the class is mostly scaling off of sneak attacks and isn’t very MAD, I was thinking you could just get proficiency with a feat if there was no downtime to train up weapon proficiency, however a single level dip in fighter actually seems like a good idea as the dueling style would make up for the damage loss you get from postponing sneak attack upgrades by one level. Sneak attack gains 1d6 every two levels which ends up being 3.5(average of d6)/2 = 1.75 So the +2 damage actually means you end up slightly increasing your DPR. Also since you aren’t being using reactions to dodge attacks, getting those features later doesn’t really matter and the shields and medium armor proficiency can help with the lower survivability

So assuming you gained the weapon proficiency with a single level fighter dip, a feat, or training, what subclass would end up working the best for the rogue? If you’re using a shield then you don’t have a second free hand so arcane trickster becomes worse because you’d need war caster to actually use spells and since your survivability increases because of the shield, the ability to hide yourself with magic becomes comparatively less important to survival.

I guess the only real reason to not pick swashbuckler is that it’s later class features aren’t exactly stellar, but the only classes that really exponentially increase your Damage later have their own issues.

Nhorianscum
2019-06-25, 08:46 PM
AT every time (unless we're dealing with 13+thief)

Magical ambush + stabby stab/ UMD stabby stab is too good.

JackPhoenix
2019-06-26, 10:27 AM
Scimitar of Speed is one of the ways to make net useful. As net is ranged weapon, you can't use TWF with it, and its use negate Extra Attack and similar abilities, as you can't make more attacks with the action after you throw a net. You may throw the net with your regular action and restrain the opponent, then attack him at advantage with the scimitar's BA attack.

It's also good if you want defense over offense, as you can Dodge as your action, and still attack.

Meichrob7
2019-09-12, 12:48 PM
Scimitar of Speed is one of the ways to make net useful. As net is ranged weapon, you can't use TWF with it, and its use negate Extra Attack and similar abilities, as you can't make more attacks with the action after you throw a net. You may throw the net with your regular action and restrain the opponent, then attack him at advantage with the scimitar's BA attack.

It's also good if you want defense over offense, as you can Dodge as your action, and still attack.

In general you’re right but with a rogue specifically you’d potentially be needing a feat to use scimitar of speed so at that point you might as well just get crossbow expert and do the same thing with a net + crossbow BA combo.

In terms of the scimitar being more defensive, again that’s in general a valid point but not for rogues specifically because they can already use their BA to avoid damage (hide/dash if they’re at range or Disengage/dash if they’re in melee)

Grey Acumen
2019-09-12, 06:50 PM
Best Rogue for taking advantage of Scimitar of speed is as follows:

Swashbuckler lvl3+(odd level preferred)/Hexblade lvl1-5
Weapon Loadout: Scimitar of Speed, Whip
Spell Loadout: Booming Blade
Feat Loadout: Spell Sniper (necessary if DM allows BB to match any weapon range, even those with reach)

Step 1) get close to enemy
Step 2) attack enemy as bonus action with scimitar, get sneak attack
Step 3) move away from enemy (Swashbuckler = No Opportunity attack)
Step 4) Ready booming blade with Whip for enemy to come within range
Step 5) Enemy comes closer, gets hit with Booming Blade Whip + sneak attack (spell sniper ensures even anal retentive DMs give BB 10ft reach)
Step 5a) Enemy must choose between taking damage from BB or giving up on attacking you (unless they also have reach obviously)
Step 6a) Repeat from step 1, UNLESS enemy is smart enough to also ready an attack for when you come in range, in which case go to step 6b
Step 6b) IF the enemy readies an attack (or has been) smack with booming blade whip as main action
Step 7) Use movement to get as far out of range/sight as possible.
Step 8) Put bonus action towards extra movement AND/OR hiding
Step 9) Determine strategy depending on what opportunities present themselves. Enemies that have used their main action already, or have used reactions wont have another available to use a readied action.

Swash15/Hex5 can get you (8d6+1d6+2) + (8d6+1d4+3d8+maybe 4d8) = 17d6+1d4+3d8 all the way up to 17d6+1d4+7d8 almost EVERY round.
Swash19/Hex1 brings that up to 21d6+1d4+3d8 and don't forget that crits (which a hexblade can get on 19s with their curse) DOUBLE ALL of the dice being rolled for that crit. (I personally feel the extra 4 levels of Hexblade are worth taking of 4d6 though)

truemane
2019-09-12, 07:34 PM
Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy is a forbidden art.