Why do damaging cantrips even exist? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SimonMoon6

2019-06-25, 07:43 AM

In Pathfinder, having an infinite supply of cantrips makes them reasonably useful, especially for lower level casters. After that 1st level sorcerer or wizard has finished casting his 1st level spells, now what does he do? He can spam ray of frost all day long.

Sure, it's only d3 damage... but what else is the wizard gonna do? Run into melee with a dagger? That's not a great idea. And if he's dumped strength (as he very well might), this is an even worse idea. He probably has a higher DEX than STR, so he's more likely to hit with a ranged touch attack than with any other combat options that he's got. If he has STR 8 and DEX 12, that means that with a dagger in melee, he'd have a -1 to hit and do d4 -1 damage (average of 1.5 damage), whereas with a ray of frost, he has +1 to hit (and ignoring armor) for d3 damage (average of 2 damage). Better chance to hit and better damage. (Yeah, a quarterstaff would be d6-1 for 2.5 average damage, but it still has a lower chance of hitting and still puts the wizard in melee where he does not want to be).

Staying in the back and shooting rays of frost is possibly the best way to contribute to combat after all his other spells are gone.

At higher levels, it quickly becomes pointless, but that's true of lots of low level spells.

Efrate

2019-06-25, 07:53 AM

Unlimited cantrips is great in pf. Things like resistance are great, being a pretty much free cloak of res +1 at low levels with minimal downtime to recast. It also feels much more immersive to have a caster, someone who has spent years on their craft, constantly using minor magic in their daily life. Everyones drinks get ice always (great money maker for apprentices/low level wizards, find a good bar and you are set), clothes are always pristine, always have a good light to read by, etc. These are things your casters should do always.

Kurald Galain

2019-06-25, 08:25 AM

He can spam ray of frost all day long.

Sure, it's only d3 damage... but what else is the wizard gonna do? Run into melee with a dagger?
To be fair, if he wants to make a contribution after running out of spells, the wizard should basically do anything except spam Ray of Frost. It's still a parlor trick, not a combat spell.

Try spamming Daze or Disrupt Undead instead; or splurge on a (auto-hitting) wand of Magic Missile. Even providing flanks and Aid Another in melee is more effective than spamming Ray of Frost.

AnimeTheCat

2019-06-25, 08:51 AM

To be fair, if he wants to make a contribution after running out of spells, the wizard should basically do anything except spam Ray of Frost. It's still a parlor trick, not a combat spell.

Try spamming Daze or Disrupt Undead instead; or splurge on a (auto-hitting) wand of Magic Missile. Even providing flanks and Aid Another in melee is more effective than spamming Ray of Frost.

Yes, spending funds on 50 charges of 1d4+1 auto damage in infinitely better than unlimited charges of 1d3 damage that targets the typical lowest AC in the game. /s
If you're already spending ed nfing money on a level 1 wand, make it grease or something like that. Flanking or providing aid another in melee is also not smart. You're exposing yourself, and your likely low AC, to threats you could otherwise avoid. Daze is fine, but not that great, and disrupt undead could be a waste of a prepared spell if you're not fighting undead. Ray of frost is not the worst thing you can do. Getting yourself killed or putting yourself into bed situations is the worst you could do. Lastly, 1d3 vs touch is not bad considering many level 1 or 2 enemies have between 6 and 12 hp. 3 damage is enough of a contribution to be helpful.

Kurald Galain

2019-06-25, 08:55 AM

disrupt undead could be a waste of a prepared spell if you're not fighting undead.

This is why the average wizard prepares more than one spell :smallamused:

AnimeTheCat

2019-06-25, 09:12 AM

This is why the average wizard prepares more than one spell :smallamused:

In addition to Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistance, etc? Yeah... usually there's only one (if one) slot left for something else not necessary for basic life. At level 1 you get what, 2 cantrips? 3? One of those has to be detect magic, it's usefulness is seen all the way to level 20. Then you've got Resistance right? the always-on cloak of resistance at level 1 that everyone loves to talk about? That's it. You don't even get disrupt undead or ray of frost. Level 2 gets you 3 cantrips right? (I'm AFB so I'm running on memory) So add in read magic for non-adventure days (or even for adventure days because it's useful as well) or something else? Light, very useful if you don't have darkvision, especially in caves. Frees up your hands from carrying a torch, can be used on rocks to light up long tunels or holes that would waste a torch.

I'm just saying that unless I KNOW i'm fighting undead, Disrupt undead is super low on my list of cantrips to prepare. Even if I know I'm fighting undead, it still may be pretty low considering how few spells you can prepare (and that you don't get to prepare more for having a high ability score).

Kurald Galain

2019-06-25, 09:18 AM

In addition to Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistance, etc? Yeah... usually there's only one (if one) slot left for something else not necessary for basic life. At level 1 you get what, 2 cantrips?
Three. Four if you're a sorcerer.

The nice thing about detect magic is that every caster gets it, and only one needs to prepare it. You can't seriously think that read magic is "necessary for basic life", let alone at level one... :smallbiggrin:

AnimeTheCat

2019-06-25, 09:42 AM

Three. Four if you're a sorcerer.

The nice thing about detect magic is that every caster gets it, and only one needs to prepare it. You can't seriously think that read magic is "necessary for basic life", let alone at level one... :smallbiggrin:

I mean... it depends. Do you want to be able to decipher or read the scrolls you pick up as loot as soon as you see it? If you didn't rank up in decipher script, Read Magic is necessary. Also, do you want to be able to aid another on spellcraft checks to identify something, because if you do you need to be able to have detect magic active as well.

I've been in a group where only one person ever prepared detect magic (me) and everyone else thought it was fine. Then I failed one spellcraft check to identify an item, identified it incorrectly, and it turned out to be a cursed ring that ate a character's hand and turned in to a doppleganger of the person it consumed the hand of. Had I gotten 1 point higher on the check, I would have succeeded in identifying it was cursed. Had someone used the aid another action, that wouldn't have happened, but they couldn't because they weren't able to detect magic. After that, there was never a time where we didn't all prepare it.

Another example, there are plenty of adventures that have magical writing that can't be read unless viewed with read magic or studied using decipher script (along with detect magic). Many of these are lower level adventures (1-6). Most of the time, the script is a warning or a trap deactivation code or similar. You can't seriously think that read magic is unnecessary in those situations can you? Let alone reading scrolls collected in those adventures.

I can think of more situations where most cantrips will be more useful than disrupt undead, simply because disrupt undead is so limited in its application. Granted, those same cantrips outshine Ray of Frost too, but I would use Ray of Frost far more in most adventures than I would use Disrupt undead.

Telonius

2019-06-25, 09:56 AM

Sometimes you want to scare the peasant badly enough that he'll do what you want, without actually killing him.

Psyren

2019-06-25, 10:22 AM

These are much more useful in Pathfinder due to the infinite use. Almost anything can be useful if it's infinite.

Acid Splash in particular has a number of uses:

1) Acid ignores hardness on some materials. Locked up in a low-level jail without your pouch, no rogue, and no Eschew Materials yet? Acid Splash has no material component, so given enough time you can probably melt that lock, or melt the doorjamb, or the hinge. Your GM gets to decide whether the material is susceptible or not, so expect some table variation here, but acid is probably going to swing it at most tables.

2) Even a small amount of acid damage is useful in PF because of how regeneration functions there. The idea is that you zap the enemy (e.g. a troll) to turn off its regen that round, and then the rest of the party goes ham with lethal damage in that vulnerability. Repeat until dead.

3) Acid Splash ignores SR, so if you're up against something that is resistant or immune to your magic and you've run out of everything else, you can still contribute. Sometimes a single point of damage makes a big difference.

4) It's a weaponlike spell (a ray) so it works with things that boost your weapon attacks and damage. The most notable of these is Kirin Strike; now you get Int to damage with your infinite-use cantrip - this is likely to beat a crossbow when you have nothing else, especially against a high-AC, low-touch foe.

HouseRules

2019-06-25, 10:23 AM

Carbonated Water Splash.
Carbonated Water is an Acid.
All of your soda of choice could be use with Acid Splash.

KillianHawkeye

2019-06-25, 10:30 AM

The thing you need to understand is that there are cantrips for every school of magic. They represent the most basic uses of each school.

It would be stranger for there NOT to be a cantrip that deals damage, because dealing damage is one of the main things that spells are used for. They represent the most basic elements that spellcasters first learn starting out.

Obviously an evoker or conjurer who wants to be a blaster would have began with learning how to evoke or conjure a small amount of damaging material.

Kish

2019-06-25, 10:44 AM

To let the 1st level wizard think he's contributing :smalltongue:
Minus the smiley, this is pretty close. You're thinking in terms of the kind of extreme optimization that these boards demand; the game designers were thinking in terms of "feedback indicates people don't like wizards whose battle strategy is 'I cast one spell and spend the rest of the day filing my nails through every combat,' so let's give a starting character more spell slots."

Segev

2019-06-25, 11:44 AM

Seriously. 3.5e or Pathfinder.

There is no reason for them at all. 1d3 damage is peanuts, even at level 1. It's an utter waste to metamagic them, and in 3.5e they're a limited supply!

Why on Earth do 1d3 damage cantrips exist?

As another mentioned, they're decent metamagic carriers. The lowest-level skeleton-animation you can get involves Fell Animate on a damage-dealing cantrip. Best if you can find a Necromancy-school one, so your Corpsecrafter riders apply, and maybe even letting you sneak some metamagic reduction in via Slaymates.

But mostly, they're ribbons. Something the wizard or sorcerer can do instead of getting out a crossbow. In 3e, they were particularly pointless, since they took 0th level spell slots. In PF, they're nice little spammables, especially if the caster needs to move and shoot (which a light crossbow won't let him do more than once every other round).

Ramza00

2019-06-25, 12:09 PM

Seriously. 3.5e or Pathfinder.

There is no reason for them at all. 1d3 damage is peanuts, even at level 1. It's an utter waste to metamagic them, and in 3.5e they're a limited supply!

Why on Earth do 1d3 damage cantrips exist?

It is built into the design philosophy of 3.5, for under each design philosophy there is aesthetics, choices you make for you find them to be emotionally pleasing. Aesthetics are based around ideals. Design philosophy is ideals put into practice, design philosophy is praxis where you take ideals and try to engineer rules that represent those ideals.

Aesthetics are not innate and they are changed all the time with new information... for our aesthetics in the new impact the aesthetic priors. Sometimes new aesthetics cause us to revisit our old aesthetics causing change, either a direct importing of the new aesthetics, or a synthesis of old and new, or you remain steadfast in your ideals of what is aesthetically pleasing.

-----

As others have pointed out that the rules that were implemented were kind of stupid if you have the ideals that we do now, let me clarify that the ideals that most people have now in 2019. RPGs have changed a lot in the 20 years since 3.0 was created (3rd edition released in 2000, but it had to be thought up and playtested prior to its release so in some sense 3rd edition is 20+ years old now.)

Cantrips are parlor tricks. Parlor tricks can be fun to make your character whimsical. The idea of "at will" abilities was new and seen as kind of imbalancing back then, but now with 2004's Complete Arcane Warlock, 2006 Complete Mage Reserve Feats and subsequent books, 4th edition, 5e, pathfinder, RPGs outside of D&D etc it is assumed giving at will abilities to a wizard that are much weaker than their highest level spells is okay.

If you were to redesign 3.5 nowadays I think most peoples aesthetic preferences would keep both Cantrips and also give some 1st level spells that you can use at will after a certain level (let's say level 5.) Cantrips would be for "at play" as parlor tricks, some silly things you do. And 1st level at will spells (after a certain level) would be for actual combat use, and non battle encounters outside of combat.

Put another way

This is my rifle, this is my gun;
This is for fightingat will low level spells, this is for funat will cantrips.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wAMNd3nbwiQ/maxresdefault.jpg

(This is a pop culture variant / simplification of the US Marine's Rifleman Creed that began to be used in World War 2. The purpose of the creed is to teach soldiers to treat their rifle in a professional manner, you should respect your rifle and treat it as an professional tool with reverence. When you call your rifle a gun you are degenerating your rifle, calling your rifle a gun well that is what the common people do who use guns for fun, for killing, and do not treat their rifles with reverence.)

----

Honestly if you were to redo 3.5 / Pathfinder spellcasters would get at least 1 Reserve Feats for Free.

And you would give Melee some form of higher level occasional use abilities similar to Tome of Battle Maneuvers / Path of War Maneuvers.

-----

Now you can use 0th level spells with metamagic as some form of "hack" but I do not think that was the aesthetic intent when 3rd edition was thought up in 1999 and prior.

Palanan

2019-06-25, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by StevenC21
Why on Earth do 1d3 damage cantrips exist?

Allow me to quote from one of my favorite campaign journals: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169149-A-Swordsage-s-Journal-The-Gladiator-Arena)

By the grace of the divine gods, the umber hulk starts rolling pretty bad. Still enough to bring the crusader down to 1hp even through DR/5 and even clobbers me once to bring me down to 2hp.

I got some lucky hits in with Flaming Burst + Wolf Fang Strike for solid damage but things aren't looking good. Just when we think it's over, the umber hulk rolls a 1 and falls prone. I try to end it with my 1d4+3 dagger attack.. and roll a 1 and fall prone.

The crusader tries to turn of battle by using a crusader strike.. And misses. The umber hulk stands up and swings a killing blow at the crusader.. And misses.

The sorcerer at this point has one more spell left -- Ray of Frost, a cantrip. It hits for 1 damage. AND THE THING DIES! Cantrip'd, biatch!

:smalltongue:

Firebug

2019-06-25, 06:09 PM

Worthless? Probably. But...

I have a character in PFS that does significant damage with Acid Splash. 1d3+4 acid and 1d4+4 cold Empowered that deals damage twice(alchemical power component Acid Flask) as a 0th level spell. Depending on Table Variation some of the static damage isn't repeated the second round, but assuming it does that is an average of 37.5 damage for a standard action. I can also use Extend Spell(because the aforementioned power component gives it a duration of 1 round) to make it deal damage more times either 3 or 4 times instead of 2 depending on the GM. This is pretty much all online by level 3: Medium 1/Sorcerer(Crossblooded(Orc/Draconic)) 1/Witch(Winter Witch) 1/(I also went Oracle X for other cold stuff, like Freezing Spells Elemental(cold) Burning Disarm), though you have to pick between Extend and Empowered at low levels. False Focus being the 1st level feat to cut down on costs.

ShurikVch

2019-06-25, 06:35 PM

Also, it may be rather minor point, but still: Ray of Frost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfFrost.htm) is a Ray - thus, works with such feats as:
Ray Burst
Ray Coning
Ray Extension
Ray Focus
Spell Specialization: Ray
Split Ray

flamewolf393

2019-06-25, 06:43 PM

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/60263919/because-sometimes-wizards-run-out-if-spells.jpg

Jay R

2019-06-25, 07:13 PM

The straightforward answer is that these spells exist because sometimes people use them. Not often, but it can happen.

Frankly, I have no idea why any wizard has a cantrip memorized that isn't Read Magic, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Resistance, or Prestidigitation (plus Silent Image for a gnome illusionist).

But the fact remains that 1d3 damage is sometimes (rarely) useful. But all cantrips are rarely useful other than as minor effects.

There are lots of options I will never take. Other people can take them, and that's all right.

ShurikVch

2019-06-25, 07:25 PM

Frankly, I have no idea why any wizard has a cantrip memorized that isn't Read Magic, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Resistance, or Prestidigitation (plus Silent Image for a gnome illusionist).Specialist wizard's school-specific extra spell slot?

Ninjaxenomorph

2019-06-25, 10:26 PM

Acid splash is a great back-pocket option for hard targets if you don't have more spells to throw. A mid-level Winter Witch can power up ray of frost to deal dex damage.

Almadelia

2019-06-26, 01:00 AM

Well for one, it works with Fell Drain and other metamagic spam abilities. An Easy Metamagic Fell Drain Frost Ray is a 1st level spell that drains a level, which isn't too bad.

Secondly, it's - well I mean look at the description of the actual level. Cantrips aren't even 'really' 0th level spells, they're considered a completely separate class feature in the class table and don't benefit from high ability scores. They're the equivalent of card tricks. A couple of them basically ARE card tricks, Prestidigitation is you wave your hand and the hankerchief turns orange and Mage Hand is bruh I can lift the spoon...with my MIND!!!!!!! They're really QoL features. Prestidigitation means no soggy pant legs, ever, and Light means you don't need to bother with electricity bills and Ray of Frost means you could probably make thousands in D&D simply by selling shaved ice, which historically was a rare commodity during hot summer seasons for obvious reasons.

Thirdly, in PF as others have said it's actually pretty decent as an option for a Wizard who's run out of spells, or knows that the enemy is not tough so he shouldn't waste one of his 3-4 1st level spells a day on it. Since it's infinite anyway, nothing prevents you from just preparing a single Acid Splash and filling up with Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, and Mage Hand (or whatever else you take). For games that actually do start on first level - you can easily see how 1-3 damage per round at very good chance to hit (since it's against TAC and most wizards have at least decent Dex) is not bad at all. An Orc's got 10 TAC and only 6 HP, so if a Wizard 1 has got 14 Dex then we're looking at a solid 60% chance to do 2 damage. The Orc will actually go down in five turns to this, which isn't bad once you consider that a (light) crossbow is doing 1-8 damage 45% of the time (or avg 2.025 compared to avg 1.2) takes the rest of your turn to reload, and represents a nontrivial amount of cash for a character who starts with like, 105 gp iirc. Once you factor in action economy and 'elite' Orcs wearing plate or something the value just keeps rising at very low levels. Consider a Skeletal Champion with two Bloody Skeleton by his side, a fairly generic CR 3 boss encounter for a level 1 group raiding a local haunted graveyard. A Bloody Skeleton's got 16 AC to 12 TAC and the Champion has got 21 AC to 12 TAC. Suddenly the ability to have a touch spell ready once you've fired off your Magic Missiles and your Grease got saved against is a pretty good deal. All of them have got low HP - 17, 6, 6 - so doing 1-3 damage becomes significant, especially when you probably have the single most reliable way to hit something with 21 AC in the party. It's garbage compared to the amount the Fighter can **** out, yeah, but the fighter has got +5 to hit against 21 AC and you've got +2 against 12.

So is it super useful? Not really. I'd take the more utility/flavor focused ones any time. But is it useless? No, I don't think so. Certainly can quickly become useless at higher levels, from a purely crunch perspective, but then from a purely crunch perspective most of the damage spells stop mattering at some point, even if they were decent enough at first. If I knew I was headed into a dangerous crypt at level 1, I'd probably drop Mage Hand and Light, and just load up on mundane equipment like torches, chalk, a ten foot pole with a hook tied to the end, and so on - just in case it really does come down to that clutch 3 damage at the end.

StevenC21

2019-06-26, 01:36 AM

Kurald Galain

2019-06-26, 02:17 AM

I was wondering if there was any defensible design decision for explaining why on earth they would make such bad effects... and then severely limit use. I mean come on. 6 cantrips/day? Really?
That's simple: it works the same as every other spellcasting ability. It's also a step forward from 2E (where casting the 1st-level spell "cantrip" would effectively give you Presto ability.

I mean... it depends.
Well, that's my point: it depends. If you claim that every sorcerer/wizard MUST have cantrips X, Y and Z at level one, then expect some disagreement.

When it comes to limited slots, I always pick new abilities over small bonuses to things I can already do. So no Detect merely to aid another (although yes, at mid-level all my casters have DM), and no light when one free hand is all it takes to bring a torch. I don't expect to find arcane scrolls every day, so I either take 20 on a spellcraft check, or cast Read Magic the next day.

Instead, I'd go for tricks like Mage Hand, Oath of Anonymity, Ghost Sound, or Message; or rarely-used life savers like Grasp.

I can think of more situations where most cantrips will be more useful than disrupt undead, simply because disrupt undead is so limited in its application.
The case for Disrupt Undead is that it's one of the best low-level counters against undead with immunities and/or DR (such as the aforementioned Skeletal Champion). So it's used less often, but makes a much bigger impact when it's actually needed. The best all-round combat cantrip is probably Daze.

rel

2019-06-26, 02:27 AM

Some cantrips are just trap options. Deliberately so if some alleged statements by the designers are to be believed.

But even then, a lot of the normally sub-optimal choices are situationally useful and can be used to craft cheap wands or at will items.

Also a bunch of cantrips can be permanencied which leads to a really nice player instigated power boost at higher levels.

You're playing a wizard, you've hit level 9, you track down permanency, prepare your spells, gather enough xp and BOOM!
You can now see magic *all* the time.
No spell, no components, you just cross your eyes and squint.
And this isn't a class feature or something every wizard gets, you as a player had to find the spell prepare it, cast it, pay the costs, protect your investment.

It feels more like magic to me.
That progression is one of the things I miss when there are at-will cantrips...

AnimeTheCat

2019-06-26, 05:02 AM

Well, that's my point: it depends. If you claim that every sorcerer/wizard MUST have cantrips X, Y and Z at level one, then expect some disagreement.

When it comes to limited slots, I always pick new abilities over small bonuses to things I can already do. So no Detect merely to aid another (although yes, at mid-level all my casters have DM), and no light when one free hand is all it takes to bring a torch. I don't expect to find arcane scrolls every day, so I either take 20 on a spellcraft check, or cast Read Magic the next day.

Instead, I'd go for tricks like Mage Hand, Oath of Anonymity, Ghost Sound, or Message; or rarely-used life savers like Grasp.

The case for Disrupt Undead is that it's one of the best low-level counters against undead with immunities and/or DR (such as the aforementioned Skeletal Champion). So it's used less often, but makes a much bigger impact when it's actually needed. The best all-round combat cantrip is probably Daze.

I see what you mean. And that's all fine and good. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying it depends. As for disrupt undead being good because it bypasses skeleton DR... so does acid splash, so does a qusrterstaff, so does a sling. All of those are also effective against non undead creatures too. I just don't see a case for disrupt undead unless you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you're going to encounter undead AND you can't find any better use for that spell slot.

Mr Adventurer

2019-06-26, 08:20 AM

I am not sure that damage cantrips are often useful as quality of life effects.

Ray of Frost deals enough ice damage to knock down a grown human in one hit at least some of the time (Commoners have 1d4 hit points) - applying that to a small object like a mug is likely to damage it.

It feels like saying a flung halfling dart - a weapon of hunting and war - is a good way to pierce your ears or darn your socks.

Elkad

2019-06-26, 09:40 AM

Segev

2019-06-26, 09:44 AM

Yeah, in 3.5 and 3.0, the fact they used their own slots made them very tricky to bother using. But they still gave a little more fuel to the low-level caster.

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for? Even when it's at-will, it never seems worth the prepared or known slot. Are there really situations where opening a door that isn't locked is even dramatic enough to be worth the slot?

Bucky

2019-06-26, 09:56 AM

Open/Close defeats the Fire Trap spell, contact poison doorknobs and similar effects - I could see that being worth the cantrip slot if your GM is overly fond of those.

Psyren

2019-06-26, 10:03 AM

I agree that Cantrips quickly become useful once they are infinite.

But I don't play Pathfinder.

Seriously. 3.5e or Pathfinder.

:smallconfused: o_O :smallconfused:

Yeah, in 3.5 and 3.0, the fact they used their own slots made them very tricky to bother using. But they still gave a little more fuel to the low-level caster.

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for? Even when it's at-will, it never seems worth the prepared or known slot. Are there really situations where opening a door that isn't locked is even dramatic enough to be worth the slot?

Aside from "trigger some traps at range" which was mentioned, the use for a lot of these cantrips is for random roleplay benefits that are not explicitly stated in the spell. Like using Open on a door to distract someone who can't see you, or opening a window to mess up somebody's binding circle with some wind/dust. I'm sure there's a bunch of such stories out there and they remain legendary in the minds of players who used "useless" magic for some memorable effect.

Put another way, at some point in some long-ago campaign in 3.5's long history, Open/Close saved someone's character from death, guaranteed.

Willie the Duck

2019-06-26, 10:21 AM

I agree that Cantrips quickly become useful once they are infinite.
But I don't play Pathfinder.
I was wondering if there was any defensible design decision for explaining why on earth they would make such bad effects... and then severely limit use. I mean come on. 6 cantrips/day? Really?

You're frustrated that you only get 6 of these things you are having trouble finding a use for?

Seriously, though- It's not entirely clear that the designers of 3.0 really knew what they wanted to do with cantrips, other than probably a place to put detect and read magic. Those previously had been extremely punitive, with a second level oD&D/AD&D 1e wizard who wanted to walk out of a dungeon with a found scroll needing to have dedicated both of their two memorized 1st level spells for the day to detect magic (to find the hidden magic treasure), and read magic (to, if it were a scroll, read it before you left the dungeon, otherwise there was a chance that it would lose its magic).

They found the concept of Cantrips, which were a late 1e (from Unearthed Arcana, which was a late-edition splatbook with a mixed reception), which were micro spells that you could memorize at 2:1 with 1st level slots (2nd edition Cantrip spell, as Kurald Galain mentions, was a full 1st level spell that rarely got used).

So they have this concept of a 0th level spell. Now they have to put something in there, so in goes light, some minor visual and auditory illusions, a micro-resistances spell... and some damage spells. The last one probably existing more because they would be notable in their absence more than any expectation that they would see regular use.

Cantrips are intended as parlor tricks, not combat spells.
3E's design predates the notion that even a low-level wizard should always cast a spell every round; later iterations of the game solve this (e.g. with 3.5's Warlock, Pathfinder's school/bloodline powers, and 4E's at-will spells that are distinct from cantrips).

Very much. As corroborating evidence, despite how relatively useless a wizard with a crossbow feels at even moderate levels, just that they decided to give them the proficiency suggest that they kind of expected the old regime of a wizard dropping game-changers 1-2x a combat, and then figuring out what to do with themselves the rest of the time was still in the mental framing.

SirNibbles

2019-06-26, 10:37 AM

Caltrops is a pretty solid area control damaging cantrip even without Metamagic. With it, it can get quite potent.

Psyren

2019-06-26, 11:49 AM

Cantrips are intended as parlor tricks, not combat spells.

3E's design predates the notion that even a low-level wizard should always cast a spell every round; later iterations of the game solve this (e.g. with 3.5's Warlock, Pathfinder's school/bloodline powers, and 4E's at-will spells that are distinct from cantrips).

Then 5e went full-bore in the other direction, with cantrips that scale and are fully expected to be the "filler actions" for most casters.

Starfinder meanwhile gave them guns :smalltongue:

Elkad

2019-06-26, 12:28 PM

Very much. As corroborating evidence, despite how relatively useless a wizard with a crossbow feels at even moderate levels, just that they decided to give them the proficiency suggest that they kind of expected the old regime of a wizard dropping game-changers 1-2x a combat, and then figuring out what to do with themselves the rest of the time was still in the mental framing.

And yet they took away Dart proficiency. Even a 1st level wizard got 3 shots a round. Not that they hit often, or did much damage, but at least you could pretend you were contributing. And they just felt more Wizard-like than lugging around a crossbow.

Willie the Duck

2019-06-26, 01:05 PM

And yet they took away Dart proficiency. Even a 1st level wizard got 3 shots a round. Not that they hit often, or did much damage, but at least you could pretend you were contributing. And they just felt more Wizard-like than lugging around a crossbow.

Hmm. Darts had a specific meaning in AD&D 1&2e that doesn't really translate to 3e. Yes, spell disruption still occurs in 3e, but not like AD&D where the only defense was to not be targeted and/or get your spell off before your opposition's initiative. This meant that, by having dart proficiency, a mage who wasn't casting a spell was mostly as good as anyone else (and had fewer competing other things to do) at keeping the other side's casters from casting.

But regardless, you are right. Darts were more 'wizardy' although when they were introduced I'm sure they seemed pretty bizarre --'what's this nonsense? My magic user has been doing fine with only using daggers (and throwing burning oil flasks) this whole time' :smalltongue:. And that's kind of the point. 3e was still in the era where a wizard was supposed to shoot off an occasional game-changer, and otherwise stand back and plink away with 'I'm contributing, honest' type attacks. They just kept making them more defined and more martial (until PF/4e/5e, when the decided that what the wizards should do on those off rounds was cast an infini-cantrip).

ShurikVch

2019-06-26, 01:56 PM

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for?Open a door(/window/hatch), got LoS to whatever behind it?
And if there is something hostile which you're don't want to fight right now - you may pretend nobody is there, and door was opened by a random draft

Vizzerdrix

2019-06-26, 08:06 PM

Mmmm. This has me thinking about a game concept. Players would get a D6 hd (+con bonus, of course), 16 skill points (again, plus int bonus x4), and their choice of 6 cantrips/orisons as at will spells. No feats. No actual class levels. Human would be boned a bit but something could be worked out.

Drop, say, a combination of 30 or so npcs and characters(preferably all characters) on one side of a huge island. Tell them the boat will be back to get them on the other side in 2 to 3 weeks (maybe a month?), but it can only carry ten people. Tell the players that their are hidden supplies on the island (nothing great. A few daggers, padded armor. Mostly tools and food) hidden around to promote the selection of non combat spells.

When the boat shows up, it only has room for 5 people.

It would be most interesting to see how creative people would get when all they have is 0ths and their wits to survive on.

ottdmk

2019-07-03, 01:18 PM

I play an Unseen Seer (Currently CL12th, Rogue 1/Diviner 4/Unseen Seer 7) and I absolutely love Acid Splash. It's not uncommon for my guy to get a good Initiative roll, and there's something vastly amusing about doing d3+4d6 with a Cantrip.

For even more laughs I can throw in Hunter's Eye (picked up with the Unseen Seer Advanced Learning class feature) and do another 4d6 for d3+8d6.

StreamOfTheSky

2019-07-03, 07:32 PM

The best use is w/ Sneak Attack, as mentioned.

Even aside from that...sometimes it's worth it just to target touch AC, rather than using a crossbow.

Vaguely related houserule note: I allow Disrupt Undead to critical hit undead, since it's only use is as a weapon against undead alone, it makes sense to me that it could crit them. Makes it more useful, although once again...much more so with sneak attack (since now you can SA undead with it). :smallsmile:

mabriss lethe

2019-07-03, 11:55 PM

If you have Heighten Spell, they can also be used as fodder for Reserve Feats if you don't have anything else that fits the bill. Not terribly useful, I know. More of a bootstrap method for a theoretical corner case, but it's there.

CharonsHelper

2019-07-04, 12:08 AM

Firebug

2019-07-04, 01:12 AM

Has anyone brought up that in Pathfinder, cantrips can end up doing considerably more than d3 damage?

I had a cross-blooded sorcerer (aiming for Dragon Disciple) who did 1d3+3 electrical damage with Jolt. Still not amazing, but at low levels it was worth casting when the crazy tielfing (he swore he was a half-dragon) couldn't close to melee.Yes, in post #30 I mentioned doing ~37 average damage with Acid Splash on a single cast as a 0th level spell by level 3.
(1d3+4(Bloodlines+Brimstone+Flask) + 1d4+4(Bloodlines+Medium)*1.5 *2. Crossblooded Orc/Draconic(white)|Medium|Winter Witch, with False Focus(Brimstone, Acid Flask), holding an actual Acid Flask as a focus. Note: the wording on the Draconic Bloodline is that the spell has to have the appropriate descriptor (cold for white) but the damage type of the actual die rolled doesn't matter. Winter Witch's Frozen Caress gives the spell the Cold descriptor. Drawbacks: It does deal damage twice of 2 energy types, so Resist 5 to both Cold and Acid shut it down hard.

MultitudeMan

2019-07-04, 05:30 AM

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for? Even when it's at-will, it never seems worth the prepared or known slot. Are there really situations where opening a door that isn't locked is even dramatic enough to be worth the slot?

One possible use of open/close is related to readied actions. If you suspect that enemies with high initiative wait on the other side of a door you find while exploring, you could have your melee characters in position, with attacks readied in case of being approached, or archers with attacks readied in case of spellcasting, etc., then open the door with open/close without anyone having to be right next to it. This worked quite well sometimes in the computer version of Temple of Elemental Evil.

Anthrowhale

2019-07-04, 06:05 AM

W.r.t. sneak attack, a particularly effective use is via a generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) who can get 2d6 sneak attack at level 1. Having 4 cantrips (doing ~9 damage) + 3 first level spells (doing ~11.5 damage) means that you can be an effective blaster at level 1.

rel

2019-07-04, 10:52 PM

One possible use of open/close is related to readied actions. If you suspect that enemies with high initiative wait on the other side of a door you find while exploring, you could have your melee characters in position, with attacks readied in case of being approached, or archers with attacks readied in case of spellcasting, etc., then open the door with open/close without anyone having to be right next to it. This worked quite well sometimes in the computer version of Temple of Elemental Evil.

A side note: Allowing the taking of readied actions when not in combat leads to a lot of odd situations. Especially where traps are concerned.

FaerieGodfather

2019-07-04, 11:49 PM

MultitudeMan

2019-07-05, 12:23 AM

A side note: Allowing the taking of readied actions when not in combat leads to a lot of odd situations. Especially where traps are concerned.

Can you give some examples? The odder, the better!

Elkad

2019-07-05, 12:32 AM

If characters could only shoot Acid Splash at badguys at will, it would be fine. But instead they'll happily shoot Acid Splash at every lock, door, wall, dead body, boat hull, tree, and whatever else a thousand times a day. And argue with me when I point out the Hardness rules say it will never do any damage to a Hardness:5 wooden door by claiming that "normal damage" means it bypasses hardness.

So no, they don't get it at will.

I could live with giving it to them a lot, cast Acid Splash and you get 1/CL shots at one per round (standard action), except then it turns into an even better metamagic delivery device.

If you want to spam Acid all over, Memorize Melf's and spend a feat on Acidic Splatter (Reserve).

DrMotives

2019-07-05, 12:38 AM

Mechanics aside, a lot of players have felt-- for a long time-- that a wizard throwing daggers to conserve their firepower feels janky and unmagical. I'm mostly in that camp, but some of the knock-on effects from at-will energy damage are also janky, and I prefer more xianxia-like D&D settings where every character is expected to mix it up in melee occasionally.

I feel like there's some kind of viable compromise between ray of frost and a light crossbow. For my own work, I plan on incorporating combat cantrips into the martial arts system rather than the spellcasting system.

Maybe homebrew some cantrips to fill that space? Perhaps instead of a ranged touch attack for a small amount of acid or cold damage, make one that allows a small amount of energy damage added onto a melee attack that is done as part of casting? Basically, a cantrip that acts as a 1d4 flaming weapon enchantment for a single attack. Or perhaps a minor X bane weapon attack, much like how Disrupt Undead has a higher base damage than any other cantrip, at the cost of being useless to all other creature types. An "SR:No" spell that lets you punch a construct for 1d6 damage feels like it's in the spirit of what you're talking about.

rel

2019-07-05, 02:02 AM

Can you give some examples? The odder, the better!

let's see:

Example 1
The door to a new room has just been opened. It looks like an ambush so the party fighter readies an action to attack any monster that comes adjacent to him and walks in.
There was in fact a monster in hiding. It gets a surprise round. the monster walks up, if its very lucky it gets to charge.
Either way the monster isn't likely to stay hidden running up so the fighter is now aware of the monster and said monster is adjacent.

So the fighter now enters the monsters surprise round and smacks it.

Now the fighter has acted. Is he still flat footed? probably not.

Also, since a readied action goes off just before the triggering event the fighter probably gets to attack before the monster (assuming the monster even got to charge).

Finally since a readied action resets your initiative the fighter is now acting before the monster in the first real round of combat.

Example 2
The rogue wants to disarm a trap but taking 10 isn't working and a bad roll might set the trap off. One of the other PC's readies an action to move the rogue away from the trap should it go off.
rogue rolls to disarm and fails. trap goes off.
A readied action goes off before the triggering event so before the trap can fire the rogue is moved out of the traps area of effect.
Then the trap goes off harmlessly.

Segev

2019-07-09, 03:39 PM

let's see:

Example 1
The door to a new room has just been opened. It looks like an ambush so the party fighter readies an action to attack any monster that comes adjacent to him and walks in.
There was in fact a monster in hiding. It gets a surprise round. the monster walks up, if its very lucky it gets to charge.
Either way the monster isn't likely to stay hidden running up so the fighter is now aware of the monster and said monster is adjacent.

So the fighter now enters the monsters surprise round and smacks it.

Now the fighter has acted. Is he still flat footed? probably not.

Also, since a readied action goes off just before the triggering event the fighter probably gets to attack before the monster (assuming the monster even got to charge).

Finally since a readied action resets your initiative the fighter is now acting before the monster in the first real round of combat.The only flaw I see here is the allowance of a surprise round for the monster. The fighter is clearly expecting it. This isn't a surprise round. It's just a round.

Example 2
The rogue wants to disarm a trap but taking 10 isn't working and a bad roll might set the trap off. One of the other PC's readies an action to move the rogue away from the trap should it go off.
rogue rolls to disarm and fails. trap goes off.
A readied action goes off before the triggering event so before the trap can fire the rogue is moved out of the traps area of effect.
Then the trap goes off harmlessly.

What rules are the moving character using to move another PC? Most techniques I can think of won't move them far, or would negate the rogue's ability to perform a delicate operation like Disable Device.

Luccan

2019-07-09, 06:05 PM

There are aspects of their existence, as well, that I think have to do more with the fiction than the mechanical power. These are the base level spells a caster learns. Those with utility in the first place do retain more usefulness, but presumably part of the reason they're weak is so that apprentices don't do something like encase themselves in ice. They also don't do enough damage to kill a wizard with average Con outright. Disrupt Undead does 1d6 damage, but a mortal caster can't harm themselves with it at all, so it's fairly safe to practice.

Psyren

2019-07-10, 01:18 AM

let's see:

Example 1
The door to a new room has just been opened. It looks like an ambush so the party fighter readies an action to attack any monster that comes adjacent to him and walks in.

Ready is an initiative action, you can't ready before combat starts.

The only flaw I see here is the allowance of a surprise round for the monster. The fighter is clearly expecting it. This isn't a surprise round. It's just a round.

Not quite how surprise works; being generally cautious/on alert isn't enough to avoid a surprise round, you actually have to be aware that something is there (which usually means perceiving it with at least one of your senses before it strikes.)

Mr Adventurer

2019-07-10, 02:18 AM

Ready is an initiative action, you can't ready before combat starts.

Before an encounter starts, surely? If two parties are aware of each other and that they'll fight, but are separated by a door, surely initiative is rolled?

Psyren

2019-07-10, 03:35 AM

Before an encounter starts, surely? If two parties are aware of each other and that they'll fight, but are separated by a door, surely initiative is rolled?

Sure, but the situation as described is that only one party has awareness, thus the one that doesn't can't ready.

Elkad

2019-07-10, 06:38 AM

let's see:

Example 1
The door to a new room has just been opened. It looks like an ambush so the party fighter readies an action to attack any monster that comes adjacent to him and walks in

Example 2
The rogue wants to disarm a trap but taking 10 isn't working and a bad roll might set the trap off. One of the other PC's readies an action to move the rogue away from the trap should it go off...

^snipped down some.

The fighter can only take a 5' step into the room (limits of Ready action). And he specifically declared he's on his guard. Logically, he should get some benefit vs just strolling in and rummaging through the enemy's bedroll.

The other player is attempting to help the rogue. Again there should be a benefit vs most traps. A bonus to save or AC at the minimum. (aid another).

So we have an overly-strict rules issue, not a logic issue. So now we head further into houserules.

We need another class for out of combat. "Prepared Action" or something. It's your default move, made on a hair-trigger. Which may mean stabbing the princess if she's leaning on the other side of the door listening to see who is in the hallway (the party) when you open the door. Or dragging the rogue into the pit trap that was under your own feet when you hear the click. But usually it would give a bonus. If the enemy charges you while you are unaware, you get your AoO - but you still don't get to roll initiative in the surprise round. If the big rock falls on the rogue, you give him an AC bonus as you jerk him out of the way.

Psyren

2019-07-10, 03:16 PM

^snipped down some.

The fighter can only take a 5' step into the room (limits of Ready action). And he specifically declared he's on his guard. Logically, he should get some benefit vs just strolling in and rummaging through the enemy's bedroll.

He does - active rather than passive perception (i.e. getting to roll prior to or as he enters the room). If he doesn't perceive anything, and lacks an applicable technique that doesn't care about awareness like Uncanny Dodge, he can still be surprised.

The other player is attempting to help the rogue. Again there should be a benefit vs most traps. A bonus to save or AC at the minimum. (aid another).

Correct - this would be Aid Another, with the bonus being fluffed as shifting the rogue slightly out of harm's way or something similar. Actually readying an action or picking them up and changing their square however would both not be possible unless an ability specifically states otherwise.

Segev

2019-07-10, 03:22 PM

Not quite how surprise works; being generally cautious/on alert isn't enough to avoid a surprise round, you actually have to be aware that something is there (which usually means perceiving it with at least one of your senses before it strikes.)

Perhaps, but I'm hardly going to give a surprise round to a creature on the basis that the DM insists the PCs didn't know it was there, when the PCs and their players were saying "we know you're there, come on out." Or similar. I might allow a surprise round if the enemy was hiding, and deliberately waited for the PCs to lower their guard. But the description was of a fighter who literally entered the room ready to attack something he expected to jump him.

Psyren

2019-07-10, 03:37 PM

Perhaps, but I'm hardly going to give a surprise round to a creature on the basis that the DM insists the PCs didn't know it was there, when the PCs and their players were saying "we know you're there, come on out." Or similar. I might allow a surprise round if the enemy was hiding, and deliberately waited for the PCs to lower their guard. But the description was of a fighter who literally entered the room ready to attack something he expected to jump him.

But you could argue that any PC inside any dungeon is "ready for something to jump him" the moment he enters any room. Or put another way, your players can say "I enter the room with my guard up!" at every single doorway, and should thus be immune to surprise. I for one don't think a simple statement like that should allow you to duplicate the effects of a 9th-level spell regardless of what your perception rolls are.

Segev

2019-07-10, 03:42 PM

But you could argue that any PC inside any dungeon is "ready for something to jump him" the moment he enters any room. Or put another way, your players can say "I enter the room with my guard up!" at every single doorway, and should thus be immune to surprise. I for one don't think a simple statement like that should allow you to duplicate the effects of a 9th-level spell regardless of what your perception rolls are.

The key to a good ambush is not jumping people when they're on guard. It's waiting for them to lower it.

The moment they do anything other than stand there, ready for an attack, is when the bad guys strike. If you want a surprise round, wait for the PCs to be unready.

Psyren

2019-07-10, 03:54 PM

The key to a good ambush is not jumping people when they're on guard. It's waiting for them to lower it.

The moment they do anything other than stand there, ready for an attack, is when the bad guys strike. If you want a surprise round, wait for the PCs to be unready.

This doesn't answer my question; all you will end up with going this route is players who declare they are ready for anything all the time (regardless of what their characters actually perceive.) It's another symptom of the passive check metagame problem, e.g. "you didn't say you were rolling Sense Motive, so he lied his ass off and none of you caught it" followed by "I'm rolling Sense Motive after every sentence from now on."

Elkad

2019-07-10, 07:43 PM

He does - active rather than passive perception (i.e. getting to roll prior to or as he enters the room). If he doesn't perceive anything, and lacks an applicable technique that doesn't care about awareness like Uncanny Dodge, he can still be surprised.

Correct - this would be Aid Another, with the bonus being fluffed as shifting the rogue slightly out of harm's way or something similar. Actually readying an action or picking them up and changing their square however would both not be possible unless an ability specifically states otherwise.

Sure, by the rules. But as the DM, I'm going to give my players something close to a readied action while out of combat if they carefully state the action they are preparing.
If the barbarian states he's going to hit anything in range as soon as the door opens, I'm going to give him that swing before we even roll initiative (it'll be the automatic first action of the surprise round - unless someone else has a similar prepared action to compete with him). But I'm not going to let him ID the target. Or move, or anything else, including making Perception rolls.
If it's the princess he's supposed to be rescuing? Oops. Custom Tar Baby Rust Monster that his weapon is going to stick to for easy devouring? Oops. Fragile terracotta statue worth it's weight in adamantine? Oops.

Same with a possible trap, preparing to jerk the rogue out of the way. You give him a big fat AC bonus vs the scything blade. You also may make him drop the glass bulb of poison gas he was catching as the chest opened. Because all you can do is hear the click and take your action.

The Random NPC

2019-07-10, 10:18 PM

Segev

2019-07-11, 12:04 AM

This doesn't answer my question; all you will end up with going this route is players who declare they are ready for anything all the time (regardless of what their characters actually perceive.) It's another symptom of the passive check metagame problem, e.g. "you didn't say you were rolling Sense Motive, so he lied his ass off and none of you caught it" followed by "I'm rolling Sense Motive after every sentence from now on."

There's a little bit of playing it by ear. "I'm always on guard" is simply impossible. People's guard slips. But it doesn't slip right after a focusing event. A "focusing event" is anything that draws attention and spikes alertness, and CAN be something you are doing specifically, like opening a door onto an unknown room.

If they remain "ready for anything" all the time, they're literally doing nothing else. Paying attention to nothing else. And probably having to make some sort of check (not sure what; maybe a Will save, maybe Profession:guardsman - I'd have to make something up) regularly to not have focus slip.

In practice, all this really means is that the surprise attack has to have some amount of deliberate effort on the surprising character's part, and probably involves at least one Stealth check.

rel

2019-07-11, 01:30 AM

I think the ensuing discussion demonstrates my original point; If you decide to allow readying actions out of combat, expect to have to make rulings on some odd edge cases.

Bringing things back to the original topic:
I think the lackluster nature of damaging cantrips is part of a bigger issue of damage spells in 3.5 being generally weak.

Psyren

2019-07-11, 01:33 AM

In practice, all this really means is that the surprise attack has to have some amount of deliberate effort on the surprising character's part, and probably involves at least one Stealth check.

Of course it does, I thought that was a given :smallconfused: If the ambushing monster isn't hiding, there's no opposed check to roll Perception against.

Mr Adventurer

2019-07-11, 01:50 AM

To be fair, the rules do say that acid bypasses hardness.

Can you provide a quote from the srd?

Psyren

2019-07-11, 02:38 AM

Segev

2019-07-11, 09:30 AM

Of course it does, I thought that was a given :smallconfused: If the ambushing monster isn't hiding, there's no opposed check to roll Perception against.Just making sure that was established.

Part of a successful Stealth check is not jumping out while the guy you want to ambush is ready to swing at the first thing he sees. Removing mechanics for a moment, if you're telling a story about an oddly stealthy ogre planning to ambush the next invader of his lair, he's not going to come screaming at the fighter who kicks down the door and comes in, wary and ready and looking for the threat. If he does, he may as well not have hidden, because he's presenting the threat the fighter was looking for right when the fighter was looking for it. He waits for the fighter to relax just a bit, to settle into the notion that there's no visible threat, and to turn his back on the ogre's hiding place. Or even for the fighter to walk within arm's reach of the ogre's hiding place, so the ogre doesn't need to charge.

Re-introducing mechanics, if the fighter insists that he's moving, then readying another action, the moving, then readying another action, I can rely on one of two things:

1) The stealthed ogre isn't revealed until after his attack, so the readied action going off before the ogre's attack would have no target, or
2) the stealthed ogre has readied an attack for when the fighter comes in reach, so the ogre's attack goes off before the fighter's readied action because both are readied actions.

In practice, I simplify it by not permitting readied actions that keep being re-upped to be automatically successful because a readied action has a certain amount of tension required, and people jsut can't maintain it in the face of nothing happening. It's a ruling, not a strict adherence to the RAW, but I could construct one if I really wanted to.

I think the ensuing discussion demonstrates my original point; If you decide to allow readying actions out of combat, expect to have to make rulings on some odd edge cases.Eh, you have to make rulings on odd edge cases with any rule, really. Allowing them IN combat can lead to the same thing.

Bringing things back to the original topic:
I think the lackluster nature of damaging cantrips is part of a bigger issue of damage spells in 3.5 being generally weak.
This...doesn't strike me as accurate. Damage spells are "weak" only compared to BFC and the like; they can still do some massive damage, especially if you count AoE damage individually on each target. They also generally do more damage than highly-specialized weapon-use builds (uberchargers, etc.). They trade spell slot expenditure for this increased (base) damage. Cantrips in 3.5 still cost a spell slot, and frequently deal less damage than firing a light crossbow. In PF, they at least don't cost anything but having prepared/learned them, but still, they generally don't do enough damage to be worth the action.

3.5 and even PF damaging cantrips are ribbons more than "real" powers. They're a way to say "yep, I'm a spellcaster" without wasting a "real" spell slot.

AnimeTheCat

2019-07-11, 10:19 AM

I feel like the fighter entering the room example is pretty simple. The Fighter moves in to the room "with his/her guard up". Roll spot (pathfinder: Perception). Succes>you spot a small creature hiding the shadows, it looks as though it's ready to pounce and begins moving towards you dagger at the ready (Fighte gets normal AC). Failure>The room looks dark and empty. Suddenly from the shadows a small creature jumps out and attacks you (Fighter is Flat Footed).

I guess in this example if the fighter fails his/her spot check they don't get to use their readied action until they are aware of the presence of the creature, after it has attacked and resolved the attack. If the fighter succeeded, they get their readied action as normal. That seems like the most rules savvy and logical progression of events to me.

Psyren

2019-07-11, 12:23 PM

Just making sure that was established.

Part of a successful Stealth check is not jumping out while the guy you want to ambush is ready to swing at the first thing he sees. Removing mechanics for a moment, if you're telling a story about an oddly stealthy ogre planning to ambush the next invader of his lair, he's not going to come screaming at the fighter who kicks down the door and comes in, wary and ready and looking for the threat. If he does, he may as well not have hidden, because he's presenting the threat the fighter was looking for right when the fighter was looking for it. He waits for the fighter to relax just a bit, to settle into the notion that there's no visible threat, and to turn his back on the ogre's hiding place. Or even for the fighter to walk within arm's reach of the ogre's hiding place, so the ogre doesn't need to charge.

Re-introducing mechanics, if the fighter insists that he's moving, then readying another action, the moving, then readying another action, I can rely on one of two things:

1) The stealthed ogre isn't revealed until after his attack, so the readied action going off before the ogre's attack would have no target, or
2) the stealthed ogre has readied an attack for when the fighter comes in reach, so the ogre's attack goes off before the fighter's readied action because both are readied actions.

In practice, I simplify it by not permitting readied actions that keep being re-upped to be automatically successful because a readied action has a certain amount of tension required, and people jsut can't maintain it in the face of nothing happening. It's a ruling, not a strict adherence to the RAW, but I could construct one if I really wanted to.

I think we're arriving at the same overall conclusions, just via different routes/premises.

I agree completely that if the ogre perceives the fighter but not the reverse, the ogre can ready an action to whack him when he gets close. But by my reading, it can do that because it has a surprise round in which to use the Ready action, whereas the fighter (who perceived nothing and therefore isn't even in initiative yet) doesn't, and can't. Only after the Surprise resolves, can initiative be rolled normally - and the result of that may even be that the Ogre gets to swing at the fighter a second time before he can act.

Conversely, if neither party had advance awareness - meaning the fighter walks in and and they "surprise" each other (i.e. both gain awareness of the other at the same moment, because nobody was hiding), regular initiative determines who gets the first move and who is flat-footed.

Rules Compendium has a whole section on Surprise that lays these circumstances out pretty clearly. I can quote the relevant bits if needed, but the most important concept is that surprise is based on awareness, not merely caution.

Bohandas

2019-07-11, 12:26 PM

To let the 1st level wizard think he's contributing :smalltongue:

Except that at 1st level they never connect

smetzger

2019-07-11, 02:12 PM

Sure, by the rules. But as the DM, I'm going to give my players something close to a readied action while out of combat if they carefully state the action they are preparing.
If the barbarian states he's going to hit anything in range as soon as the door opens, I'm going to give him that swing before we even roll initiative (it'll be the automatic first action of the surprise round - unless someone else has a similar prepared action to compete with him).

eh... I think giving a situational bonus to initiative is the way to go here. I would give the Barbarian an additional +4 to init.

The Random NPC

2019-07-11, 07:37 PM

Can you provide a quote from the srd?

It doesn't bypass hardness, rather it deals full damage to most objects before hardness, unlike fire and electricity (half damage before hardness) and cold (quarter damage before hardness.) In all cases, hardness still applies.

Pathfinder includes a "select materials" clause that modifies the above rules depending on what the object is made of, e.g. paper and wooden objects take full damage from fire before hardness instead of half damage.

Energy Attacks
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Here you go. As you can see, you deal damage to most objects as if they were a creature. Though looking at it now, I can totally see how someone could interperate it to still apply hardness. I would disagree though.

Psyren

2019-07-11, 10:20 PM

Here you go. As you can see, you deal damage to most objects as if they were a creature. Though looking at it now, I can totally see how someone could interperate it to still apply hardness. I would disagree though.

"As though it were a creature" refers to the initial reduction not applying. It doesn't say anything about ignoring hardness.

Mr Adventurer

2019-07-12, 02:32 AM

Indeed creatures can have Hardness (admittedly Animated Objects, but still)

Psyren

2019-07-12, 01:01 PM

Indeed creatures can have Hardness (admittedly Animated Objects, but still)

Psicrystals too; part of why the VSP combo is so effective.

SirNibbles

2019-07-12, 04:41 PM

"As though it were a creature" refers to the initial reduction not applying. It doesn't say anything about ignoring hardness.

Could definitely interpret it either way. I would lean towards it meaning as if it were a creature, i.e. no hardness, and DR doesn't affect energy attacks.

Psyren

2019-07-12, 04:51 PM

In case it matters to you two, this was explicitly addressed in the 3.5 FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a), saying that yes, Hardness applies (post-energy reduction.)

Mr Adventurer

2019-07-12, 06:04 PM

Could definitely interpret it either way. I would lean towards it meaning as if it were a creature, i.e. no hardness, and DR doesn't affect energy attacks.

I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning at all - creatures can have Hardness. I'm not sure why you're referring to DR at all, doesn't seem relevant.

In the context, the interpretation seems clear to me and I agree with the FAQ Psyren pointed out.

El Dorado

2019-07-12, 06:16 PM

Because when my low level wizard runs out of spells, I still like having options. Yes, I can fire a crossbow, or flank, or throw a tanglefoot bag, but sometimes that 1d3 each round adds up.

ayvango

2019-07-12, 06:59 PM

Because when my low level wizard runs out of spells, I still like having options. Yes, I can fire a crossbow, or flank, or throw a tanglefoot bag, but sometimes that 1d3 each round adds up.
An adventure consist of 90% logistics, 9% exploring and 1% fighting. Cantrips could be invested more efficiently in logistics and exploring then an actual combat. Prestidigitation cleans you cloths and refreshes you so you need no water except for drinking (save 30-60 minutes a day). Mending prevents breaking items in the midst of adventure. Message provides better means for teamwork during exploration. Detect magic is perfect for scouting.

And if you would like to contribute to fight you could use bows, crossbows or even throw a net. And once you get 750 gp to spend, you could buy wand of Light of Lunia. The wand holds enough charges to advance to 4th level, given you spend 3 charges to bring down CR 1 monster. You could use it more efficiently against undead, sharing spell with familiar or using knowledge devotion to improve damage. Then you could buy wand of Light of Venya. Also wand of Ray of Stupidity is very efficient investment in case you engages animals. And in subsequent levels cantrip damage would become truly irrelevant.

The Random NPC

2019-07-13, 01:57 AM

"As though it were a creature" refers to the initial reduction not applying. It doesn't say anything about ignoring hardness.

I disagree, the subsequent entries explicitly spell out that Hardness applies. That being said, the other way is a valid interpretation and I wouldn't argue it at the table.

Indeed creatures can have Hardness (admittedly Animated Objects, but still)

Yeah, forgot about those, but it is pretty rare for creatures to have Hardness, and I wouldn't blame the writers for going with the general case.

In case it matters to you two, this was explicitly addressed in the 3.5 FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a), saying that yes, Hardness applies (post-energy reduction.)

FAQ holds very little weight with me, I find that the answers can be contradictory.

Psyren

2019-07-13, 02:04 AM

Very well - I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong, it's up to our respective DMs since 3.5 is unlikely to get more errata anytime soon.

ShurikVch

2019-07-13, 07:21 AM

Except that at 1st level they never connectThunderhead was a cantrip in 3.0, and Zap Trap still is

Scarlet Knight

2019-07-13, 07:37 AM

An adventure consist of 90% logistics, 9% exploring and 1% fighting. Cantrips could be invested more efficiently in logistics and exploring then an actual combat. Prestidigitation cleans you cloths and refreshes you so you need no water except for drinking (save 30-60 minutes a day). Mending prevents breaking items in the midst of adventure. Message provides better means for teamwork during exploration. Detect magic is perfect for scouting.

Yes, IMO cantrips were not meant for combat but role playing. Thus my character moved to the tropics, opened a Tiki Bar, and made money because his drinks were frosted thanks to Ray of Frost. Don't think it was infinite back then... :smallconfused:

Elkad

2019-07-13, 11:24 AM

I disagree, the subsequent entries explicitly spell out that Hardness applies. That being said, the other way is a valid interpretation and I wouldn't argue it at the table.
...

I take the other side for this reason

Thus why I said way up there I don't want Acid Splash to be unlimited. Because then I can just avoid the whole debate.

And it's not just damage.
If it's Create Water, they'll be making swimming pools out of my pit traps.
And then trying to freeze them with Ray of Frost so they can walk across.
Launch Bolt means they don't even need to buy a crossbow, much less reload it.
All the divinations remove a giant battery of risk and skill checks.
The whole party chips in for an Eversmoking Bottle about 3rd level, and they all run Fire Eyes constantly. (There is an argument to be made that the smoke is magical, so Fire Eyes shouldn't work - another point of rules contention)
Even easier, the whole party selects for Darkvision and runs No Light constantly. (Though this already works well for combat)
Deathwatch and Naturewatch instantly reveal gargoyles, treants, molds, mimics, and similar creatures that conceal as objects.
Every first save of a combat/trap gets +1 from Resistance.

Psyren

2019-07-13, 02:45 PM

Thus why I said way up there I don't want Acid Splash to be unlimited. Because then I can just avoid the whole debate.
And it's not just damage.
If it's Create Water, they'll be making swimming pools out of my pit traps.
And then trying to freeze them with Ray of Frost so they can walk across.
Launch Bolt means they don't even need to buy a crossbow, much less reload it.
All the divinations remove a giant battery of risk and skill checks.
The whole party chips in for an Eversmoking Bottle about 3rd level, and they all run Fire Eyes constantly. (There is an argument to be made that the smoke is magical, so Fire Eyes shouldn't work - another point of rules contention)
Even easier, the whole party selects for Darkvision and runs No Light constantly. (Though this already works well for combat)
Deathwatch and Naturewatch instantly reveal gargoyles, treants, molds, mimics, and similar creatures that conceal as objects.
Every first save of a combat/trap gets +1 from Resistance.

Oh please, none of these complaints are legitimate.

1) If your party has time to stand around filling in every single gap or pit they come across with water - never mind then taking time to freeze it all with multiple 1d4 rays (are there even rules for that?), the urgency of your adventure is the issue.

2) Nonmagic bolts stop being relevant very early on, especially when you can't even use this cantrip to full-attack.

3) Which divination cantrip "removes risk?"

4) Monsters that are defeated by darkness stop mattering very early on. And Fire Eyes, on top of being a 3.0 spell, requires you to flood every single area you come across with smoke to get the benefit you describe, a tactic which has myriad problems of its own.

5) Deathwatch isn't a cantrip.

6) You're expected to have a +6 resistance bonus to saves constantly, that's part of the "Big Six" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a) magic items that the game's math is based around, so the resistance cantrip becomes useless fast (it doesn't stack.)

Elkad

2019-07-13, 05:00 PM

Oh please, none of these complaints are legitimate.

I'm aiming at low/mid level. And yes, there is a bit of hyperbole.

The water one was a bit silly, and yet I'm sure someone can come up with a use for making even 1 gallon of water every 6 seconds. Like providing water for 2400 people crossing a brutal desert (at the maximum-ish RL consumption of 1qt/hr, though I'm not sure what D&D rules say about that). And no, I don't tend to run time-pressure games. Those are rare situations.

Launch Bolt? It's decent for a few levels, if it was unlimited. As a single cast, not so much. Plus the RAW argument that you can launch Colossal bolts with it for 4d6 at L1, because it doesn't say otherwise. (not something I'd allow)

Detect Disease, Poison, Magic all trivialize some encounters that should be a surprise. Poison trap on the lock? Rat (or lycanthrope) bit you? Any magic trap at all?
(Detect Evil has the same problem, and I tend to limit it's use on Paladins. Level+wismod times/day or something.)

There are a lot of creatures without darkvision (or equivalents, like a magical light source or sonar). Or you can kite from 65'+ away and snipe at ones that do have it, while enjoying total concealment. No-light is valid for a very long time in certain situations. Granted, 3.0

Deathwatch. Healer 0.

I know Resistance doesn't stack. Until they get their first cloak, it's a paperwork issue if nothing else.

Mr Adventurer

2019-07-13, 05:44 PM

This all just sounds like the old "Warlock is overpowered because they never run out" arguments.

Do you also ban Reserve feats?

The Random NPC

2019-07-13, 11:37 PM

This all just sounds like the old "Warlock is overpowered because they never run out" arguments.

Do you also ban Reserve feats?

Elkad said in an early post to grab a Reserve feat to spam acid, so it seems the lack of resource expendature is the problem for them.

StreamOfTheSky

2019-07-13, 11:57 PM

And it's not just damage.
If it's Create Water, they'll be making swimming pools out of my pit traps.
And then trying to freeze them with Ray of Frost so they can walk across.
Launch Bolt means they don't even need to buy a crossbow, much less reload it.
All the divinations remove a giant battery of risk and skill checks.
The whole party chips in for an Eversmoking Bottle about 3rd level, and they all run Fire Eyes constantly. (There is an argument to be made that the smoke is magical, so Fire Eyes shouldn't work - another point of rules contention)
Even easier, the whole party selects for Darkvision and runs No Light constantly. (Though this already works well for combat)
Deathwatch and Naturewatch instantly reveal gargoyles, treants, molds, mimics, and similar creatures that conceal as objects.
Every first save of a combat/trap gets +1 from Resistance.

It's kind of weird to see you list all these spells that you have a problem w/ being unlimited use, and yet never mention Detect Magic, the only one I really dislike being unlimited use for all casters. Since it further strips away at the benefit of Trapfinding, something PF does a lot of.
(In PF, search is part of the ultimate skill that everyone maxes out, Perception, and anyone can find any non-magical trap. Add in every caster having infinite Detect Magic and...yeah, sorry, Rogues)

Luccan

2019-07-14, 12:35 AM

It's kind of weird to see you list all these spells that you have a problem w/ being unlimited use, and yet never mention Detect Magic, the only one I really dislike being unlimited use for all casters. Since it further strips away at the benefit of Trapfinding, something PF does a lot of.
(In PF, search is part of the ultimate skill that everyone maxes out, Perception, and anyone can find any non-magical trap. Add in every caster having infinite Detect Magic and...yeah, sorry, Rogues)

Eh, I was never crazy about only a few specific classes being able to spot traps in the first place. I'd like Trapfinding more if it wasn't so exclusionary(maybe a large bonus or an always take 10 type thing). It causes the whole "Got a rogue? Then there are traps. No rogue? No traps" dichotomy of play, which I don't care for.

Psyren

2019-07-14, 02:44 AM

I'm aiming at low/mid level. And yes, there is a bit of hyperbole.

Low/mid level balance is frankly irrelevant if you're worried about cantrips, so yeah. Those are the levels where cantrips are supposed to matter in the first place.

The water one was a bit silly, and yet I'm sure someone can come up with a use for making even 1 gallon of water every 6 seconds. Like providing water for 2400 people crossing a brutal desert (at the maximum-ish RL consumption of 1qt/hr, though I'm not sure what D&D rules say about that). And no, I don't tend to run time-pressure games. Those are rare situations.

No offense, but that is indeed a you problem. No time pressure = players that will take the longest route around every obstacle you present, even if that means flooding every chasm with water and then taking a long time to freeze it etc.

Launch Bolt? It's decent for a few levels, if it was unlimited. As a single cast, not so much. Plus the RAW argument that you can launch Colossal bolts with it for 4d6 at L1, because it doesn't say otherwise. (not something I'd allow)

Ignoring the colossal thing (which refers to ballistae rather than crossbows) - the cost for enhancing individual bolts is not worth it for this spell. It's far more cost-effective to use a magic crossbow and mundane ammo. And if you're using mundane bolts instead, as mentioned, it becomes useless fast.

Detect Disease, Poison, Magic all trivialize some encounters that should be a surprise. Poison trap on the lock? Rat (or lycanthrope) bit you? Any magic trap at all?
(Detect Evil has the same problem, and I tend to limit it's use on Paladins. Level+wismod times/day or something.)

If that's what those classes prepare as their cantrips, they deserve to defeat encounters like this, that's exactly what those cantrips are for.

There are a lot of creatures without darkvision (or equivalents, like a magical light source or sonar). Or you can kite from 65'+ away and snipe at ones that do have it, while enjoying total concealment. No-light is valid for a very long time in certain situations. Granted, 3.0

How many creatures that are defeated by darkness persist into mid- and high CRs? That's the important question.

Deathwatch. Healer 0.

That's not a Pathfinder class, so the infinite cantrip thing doesn't apply, as I stated.

I know Resistance doesn't stack. Until they get their first cloak, it's a paperwork issue if nothing else.

Your first cloak should be very early on, so not sure what point you're making here.

StreamOfTheSky

2019-07-14, 02:32 PM

Eh, I was never crazy about only a few specific classes being able to spot traps in the first place. I'd like Trapfinding more if it wasn't so exclusionary(maybe a large bonus or an always take 10 type thing). It causes the whole "Got a rogue? Then there are traps. No rogue? No traps" dichotomy of play, which I don't care for.

Most of my time as DM, no one opted for Trapfinding with their characters.
Didn't keep me from using traps.
*shrug*

Heck, in some cases when I was designing my own dungeons instead of using pre-designed or randomized ones, I'd include secet passages that would let people bypass portions of the dungeon. The denizens may use said passages, and the players lacking someone w/ search skills meant they would miss out on them and have to brute force their way through everything. Again.... *shrug*

Not going to force someone to specialize in that stuff, but also not going to make it a trivial decision by catering to them opting to go without it.

Psyren

2019-07-14, 03:00 PM

I enjoy Pathfinder changing Trapfinding to be "everyone can spot them, but the rogue can use a skill check to disable even the magic ones." My only dislike is that they kept the now-misleading name.

Luccan

2019-07-14, 03:01 PM

Most of my time as DM, no one opted for Trapfinding with their characters.
Didn't keep me from using traps.
*shrug*

Heck, in some cases when I was designing my own dungeons instead of using pre-designed or randomized ones, I'd include secet passages that would let people bypass portions of the dungeon. The denizens may use said passages, and the players lacking someone w/ search skills meant they would miss out on them and have to brute force their way through everything. Again.... *shrug*

Not going to force someone to specialize in that stuff, but also not going to make it a trivial decision by catering to them opting to go without it.

But that's my point. As a player, I would feel the need to check if we had a rogue or feel the need roll up a rogue if I knew the DM was using traps regardless and was sticking to the Trapfinding rules. Which is why I don't like it, I want to be able to use traps without anyone feeling they must have a rogue (as opposed to just ranks in Search and Disable Device). If no one is going to look for traps at all, that's on their own head. But I think allowing a wider range of characters to search for traps will allow for a more diverse class selection. The rogue has enough going for it that losing out a bit on Trapfinding won't suddenly make it unappealing. It's also one of the places where I draw the line on "realism": if I have 10 ranks in search, I don't see why a 1st level rogue can detect traps better than me. According to the way the game works, I'm literally better at it than they are.

Eldariel

2019-07-14, 03:15 PM

But that's my point. As a player, I would feel the need to check if we had a rogue or feel the need roll up a rogue if I knew the DM was using traps regardless and was sticking to the Trapfinding rules. Which is why I don't like it, I want to be able to use traps without anyone feeling they must have a rogue (as opposed to just ranks in Search and Disable Device). If no one is going to look for traps at all, that's on their own head. But I think allowing a wider range of characters to search for traps will allow for a more diverse class selection. The rogue has enough going for it that losing out a bit on Trapfinding won't suddenly make it unappealing. It's also one of the places where I draw the line on "realism": if I have 10 ranks in search, I don't see why a 1st level rogue can detect traps better than me. According to the way the game works, I'm literally better at it than they are.

Then again, 3.5 already allows for Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric, Artificer, Beguiler, Ninja, Scout, Spellthief, Factotum & Incarnate to innately search for any traps (though Ranger, Barb, Cleric take ACFs/specific class choices) and anyone can 1-level dip any of those classes or take Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment for Kobold domain or Bind Soulmeld: Theft Gloves + Open Least Chakra: Hands to get it. It really isn't that exclusive anymore, just kind of an ability tax. Not really a good mechanic, but not that bad either.

DEMON

2019-07-14, 05:08 PM

Then again, 3.5 already allows for Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric, Artificer, Beguiler, Ninja, Scout, Spellthief, Factotum & Incarnate to innately search for any traps (though Ranger, Barb, Cleric take ACFs/specific class choices) and anyone can 1-level dip any of those classes or take Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment for Kobold domain or Bind Soulmeld: Theft Gloves + Open Least Chakra: Hands to get it. It really isn't that exclusive anymore, just kind of an ability tax. Not really a good mechanic, but not that bad either.

Hoardstealer, Temple Raider, Silverkey... The list goes on and on...

StreamOfTheSky

2019-07-14, 05:11 PM

But that's my point. As a player, I would feel the need to check if we had a rogue or feel the need roll up a rogue if I knew the DM was using traps regardless and was sticking to the Trapfinding rules. Which is why I don't like it, I want to be able to use traps without anyone feeling they must have a rogue (as opposed to just ranks in Search and Disable Device). If no one is going to look for traps at all, that's on their own head. But I think allowing a wider range of characters to search for traps will allow for a more diverse class selection. The rogue has enough going for it that losing out a bit on Trapfinding won't suddenly make it unappealing. It's also one of the places where I draw the line on "realism": if I have 10 ranks in search, I don't see why a 1st level rogue can detect traps better than me. According to the way the game works, I'm literally better at it than they are.

Traps really aren't that bad to just take to the face, plus the default solution to no rogue is to just have expendable summons lead the way. Most official traps aren't even a part of an existing combat, but something dealt with in between fights, so ultimately setting off traps mostly just means spending more resources on healing, and maybe wasting some time. It's not an essential thing to be able to to find traps, generally.

I don't mind opening it up to other classes, but it is a huge niche for rogue type classes, so they should get something to replace the specialty they've lost. PF made Rogues pointless and fall behind the other classes with various changes related to skills and some changes to combat (how you can get SA, mostly), but I know a bunch of other posters on here are about to tell me I'm wrong, even though Paizo themselves recognized the problem enough to try and fix it w/ an "Unchained" Rogue.

ayvango

2019-07-14, 05:13 PM

detect magic helps to find magic traps without trapfinding.

Mr Adventurer

2019-07-14, 05:25 PM

Re: speedbump traps: Maybe... or maybe Destruction is a CR 8 trap.

detect magic helps to find magic traps without trapfinding.

Disagree, the magic is hidden. Plus, only Trapfinding allows finding traps with a DC higher than 20 and magic traps have a DC of 25 + spell level.

ayvango

2019-07-14, 06:03 PM

Disagree, the magic is hidden.

1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
You could design trap specifically to obscure magic. But most magic traps employ no protection against detect magic.

Mr Adventurer

2019-07-14, 06:11 PM

You could design trap specifically to obscure magic. But most magic traps employ no protection against detect magic.

I'm saying they don't need to.

DEMON

2019-07-14, 06:39 PM

I'm saying they don't need to.

Eeeehhh... I know what you mean, but the thing is, Detect Magic doesn't really *detect* the trap. It just detects a source of magic, giving a hint to a potential trap location...

Gemini476

2019-07-15, 10:17 AM

Eeeehhh... I know what you mean, but the thing is, Detect Magic doesn't really *detect* the trap. It just detects a source of magic, giving a hint to a potential trap location...

If you detect a strong Evocation aura in a certain square, you can probably be pretty sure that it's a trap. Less so for Illusion or Abjuration, of course, but sometimes it's kind of just a dead giveaway.

Of course, by constantly using Detect Magic you also leave a 1d6 round trail behind you that may or may not be an issue depending on how many magic-detecting monsters are in the dungeon.

Psyren

2019-07-15, 11:21 AM

I actually like Starfinder's approach here; it's always been a bit nonsensical to me that magic designed to be sneaky so blatantly announces its presence even to a cantrip. In SF, you can't use detect magic to find magic traps at all, though more powerful detection spells can do so.

DEMON

2019-07-15, 11:57 AM

If you detect a strong Evocation aura in a certain square, you can probably be pretty sure that it's a trap. Less so for Illusion or Abjuration, of course, but sometimes it's kind of just a dead giveaway.

Yes, I agree with you :smallsmile:

I was not on board with Mr Adventurer's ruling on Detect Magic not being able to detect magical traps
Disagree, the magic is hidden. Plus, only Trapfinding allows finding traps with a DC higher than 20 and magic traps have a DC of 25 + spell level.

ayvango

2019-07-15, 12:49 PM

Of course, by constantly using Detect Magic you also leave a 1d6 round trail behind you that may or may not be an issue depending on how many magic-detecting monsters are in the dungeon.
It's a good point. I almost forget that magic could be used against you as well as you could benefit from it. Typical characters has day-long buffs on them. How could they hide their trails from the 0-lvl spell? Nystil magic aura works only on items.

AnimeTheCat

2019-07-15, 02:57 PM

OOH! I thought of another real reason they exist:

Because spellcasters needed trap choices too.

DEMON

2019-07-15, 03:30 PM

Typical characters has day-long buffs on them. How could they hide their trails from the 0-lvl spell? Nystil magic aura works only on items.

With the Nondetection spell.

ayvango

2019-07-15, 03:42 PM

With the Nondetection spell.
Does it work on trail too? It could protect character but not his footprints.

Psyren

2019-07-15, 03:44 PM

OOH! I thought of another real reason they exist:

Because spellcasters needed trap choices too.

There's plenty of those outside the cantrips :smalltongue: Worse in fact since the opportunity cost is higher.

Gemini476

2019-07-15, 04:53 PM

With the Nondetection spell.

Nondetection doesn't work, in this case - it only works on creatures and objects. In this case it's about the lingering aura, which is kind of just an ambient area effect of sorts. By a strict reading I suspect it only works to detect expired spells (and destroyed magic items), which is an issue for the infinite cantrip-er but less so for the Permanency types.

It's not really that big of a deal, anyhow, just one of those small things that you should probably be aware of before it bites you. Kind of like the "two abjurations within 10ft over 24h lower the search check by 4" thing.

DEMON

2019-07-16, 04:27 PM

Nondetection doesn't work, in this case - it only works on creatures and objects. In this case it's about the lingering aura, which is kind of just an ambient area effect of sorts. By a strict reading I suspect it only works to detect expired spells (and destroyed magic items), which is an issue for the infinite cantrip-er but less so for the Permanency types.

It's not really that big of a deal, anyhow, just one of those small things that you should probably be aware of before it bites you. Kind of like the "two abjurations within 10ft over 24h lower the search check by 4" thing.

I believe the ayvango's question pertained to running buffs (and I would extend it to equipped magic items as well), which is why I suggested Nondetection.

I do not think these leave a lingering aura when you leave a spot, if you're warded with Nondetection.

jintoya

2019-07-17, 11:43 AM

Seriously. 3.5e or Pathfinder.

There is no reason for them at all. 1d3 damage is peanuts, even at level 1. It's an utter waste to metamagic them, and in 3.5e they're a limited supply!

Why on Earth do 1d3 damage cantrips exist?

Not reading the whole thread, so apologies if someone already said this.

Cut a rope
Burn a paper
Distract a monster
Make a child cry
Explode someone's item (mundane)
Ruin spell components
Poke a hole in something
Remove light obstacles
Weaken regular obstacles
Ruin garments
Free an animal
Finish a downed foe (slowly)
Kill that big spider in the corner
Deter a dog
Cause a bar fight
Light campfire tinder

The list goes on, but my point is that few of the uses for 3 acid/fire etc damage are actually to deal damage to a combatant, and many are replaced by shatter or a 1st level spell, but we all know that Henry, the dopey wizard will be summoning demons and animating swords next week... So let him be weak now... He's gotta be weak at some point!