[3.X] Ninja Fixes

[liquidformat]

So I have been milling over how to fix the Ninja class trying to push it up to tier 3 (I am actually working on bringing most base classes up to tier 3) and noticed most of its ki abilities can be directly be replaced by shadow hand maneuvers which would actually fix a lot of the issues of this class. How much of a boost in tier would adding shadow hand and diamond mind maneuvers and stances with a smaller pool of maneuvers and swordsage recovery mechanic in place of ki abilities be? I was also thinking of letting them add Wis mod to attack and damage along the way. What other ideas have people had to boost this interesting class?

[MisterKaws]

Still need to fix Sudden Strike being applicable only on flat-footed. If you give it the Nightmare Blades it might alleviate the problem, but won't fix it, and the Diamond Nightmare Blade might be overkill with Sudden Strike added in.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think people play classes like Ninja to avoid using ToB-style mechanics. Otherwise they could just play a Swordsage, dip Shiba Protector, and have a very fine Ninja.

I find many base classes are unnecessary. They're better off as bundles of ACFs (archetypes in PF) for more standard base classes; for instance, a Ninja is a type of Rogue. Then you just have to make sure the few base classes are close enough to your preferred range of capabilities, and then ensure the trade-off is roughly equal.

[liquidformat]

Still need to fix Sudden Strike being applicable only on flat-footed. If you give it the Nightmare Blades it might alleviate the problem, but won't fix it, and the Diamond Nightmare Blade might be overkill with Sudden Strike added in.

The only real issue with sudden strike is that you don't have enough uses of Ghost step to reliably make it work, and in the end Ghost step is almost identical to Cloak of Deception (later on One with Shadow) the only issue is uses/day can't keep up with need. Often the easiest solution is to take Cloak of Deception or ring of blinking (and eat 20% miss chance). similarly Clinging shadow strike and Obscuring Shadow Veil ki dodge and greater ki dodge.


I think people play classes like Ninja to avoid using ToB-style mechanics. Otherwise they could just play a Swordsage, dip Shiba Protector, and have a very fine Ninja.

I find many base classes are unnecessary. They're better off as bundles of ACFs (archetypes in PF) for more standard base classes; for instance, a Ninja is a type of Rogue. Then you just have to make sure the few base classes are close enough to your preferred range of capabilities, and then ensure the trade-off is roughly equal.

I mean seriously who actually plays ninja? As they stand they are too dysfunctional to work properly. And I hear what you are saying though scout and ninja are both quite different from rogue making it hard to just turn them into ACFs/archetypes...

[Segev]

I would suggest you take a look at PF's ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/) (and the rogue, while you're at it) first. Their solution, as with many classes, was to add a unique pool of abilities to choose from to customize your ninja. They're called "ninja talents" in this case.

Dreamscarred Press adapted this very well to transform the Soulknife from the thing we know and loathe in 3.5 to what I think is a very interesting class in their PF third party adaptation.

You might find that Ninja Talents do all that you're hoping for. If not, you may at least find some inspiration there.

[Maat Mons]

I'm tempted to say "give them psionics." But there might be a lot of overlap with the Psychic Rogue + Tashalatora combo.

But then again, a martial adept treatment is likely to have a lot of overlap with Unarmed Swordsage. And a traditional mundane ninja class will inevitably be a hodgepodge of monk and rogue class features.

[Albions_Angel]

I mean seriously who actually plays ninja? As they stand they are too dysfunctional to work properly. And I hear what you are saying though scout and ninja are both quite different from rogue making it hard to just turn them into ACFs/archetypes...

First real campaign character was a Grey Elf Ninja. Party of 8, all major roles covered. Already a rogue and a scout. So I went dex focus, single weapon fighting, skill monkey. Rogue was TWF and scout was ranged, and both covered the skills about as well as I did, though I had more int than they did.

So, 2 things happened.

1) both the rogue and the scout dropped out after a few sessions, at which point, it turned out I was just as good, if not better, than they were. And the ability for me to go invisible, even for a round, was a godsend. I became a super stealthy character, able to position myself better than anyone else with minimal effort. A real boon as it turned out.

2) We misread the feat that allows you to burn 2 ki at once for 2 rounds of invisibility. We misread it, somehow, as 1 ki for 2 rounds. And you know what? That was enough. I took expanded ki pool once, had a decent (+3) wis mod, and I was sorted. Never ran out of Ki. So I would say change that feat as above, and maybe give it for free? Also, think about rolling in the poison master feat from DotUD as a class feature, just because it then makes shurikens pretty good and flavourful.

[Karl Aegis]

What's wrong with Ninja? Sure, it's tough getting Cometary Collision and Leap Attack on them, but it's worth the effort.

[MisterKaws]

First real campaign character was a Grey Elf Ninja. Party of 8, all major roles covered. Already a rogue and a scout. So I went dex focus, single weapon fighting, skill monkey. Rogue was TWF and scout was ranged, and both covered the skills about as well as I did, though I had more int than they did.

So, 2 things happened.

1) both the rogue and the scout dropped out after a few sessions, at which point, it turned out I was just as good, if not better, than they were. And the ability for me to go invisible, even for a round, was a godsend. I became a super stealthy character, able to position myself better than anyone else with minimal effort. A real boon as it turned out.

2) We misread the feat that allows you to burn 2 ki at once for 2 rounds of invisibility. We misread it, somehow, as 1 ki for 2 rounds. And you know what? That was enough. I took expanded ki pool once, had a decent (+3) wis mod, and I was sorted. Never ran out of Ki. So I would say change that feat as above, and maybe give it for free? Also, think about rolling in the poison master feat from DotUD as a class feature, just because it then makes shurikens pretty good and flavourful.

You could replicate that without homebrew by going Invisible Fist Monk/Ninja with Ascetic Stalker. Invisible Fist Monks gets invisibility for one round with a three round cooldown at the exchange of Evasion. Might be nice to play.

[ottdmk]

A small fix (but necessary, IMHO) is to specify that Ki Dodge uses an Immediate Action instead of a Swift. Means you can actually use it as the fluff suggests...

[lightningcat]

I remember somewhere a Ninja fix that gave them limited Shadowcaster "spells". Thematic fix at least.