How do you explain this?!

[Bjarkmundur]

I want to create a reasonable narrative reason for not giving my players any gold until they've spent the gold they currently have.

I want to make spending money something that happens every session and emphasize smaller purchases in the early game, and slowly work up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588952-PC-Wealth-Milestones&fbclid=IwAR2JqqFfq-miJ1tEee-mJEj7YK5gpBstI8Q1ltfstPGkhLnWR5BULD6UI1c)to more fantastic and expensive items. In most of my games, the players just save up all their money for multiple levels, until they can finally purchase something amazing. I don't mind them getting Plate armor at level 5, but I'd love to see them buy something else along the way.

Do you see any good way to have this work that makes sense within the narrative? I know I can always just talk to my players, but I want it to make sense to the characters as well.

[Chronos]

Why do you want that in the first place? If they want to hoard gold, let them. It's on the players to decide their characters' personalities, not the DM.

That said, you could have them meet a traveling merchant who's offering something they want for a good price, but they have to decide now, because in a couple of days he's moving on to the next town or back to his home base or something.

[Frozenstep]

That's a strange way to approach the problem.

Perhaps a different way to approach the problem is to make it so players don't really get to go out shopping for amazing items. Shops just don't have it, and magic items are mostly traded between those that are well connected. Whenever they do come across something interesting for purchase, make it clear that it's not going to wait there for them forever. If they keep deferring, they'll find they have the money but can't find places to spend it.

Also, alternate currencies can help, especially if you can't trade one for another.

[Man_Over_Game]

Why do you want that in the first place? If they want to hoard gold, let them. It's on the players to decide their characters' personalities, not the DM.

That said, you could have them meet a traveling merchant who's offering something they want for a good price, but they have to decide now, because in a couple of days he's moving on to the next town or back to his home base or something.

He has the opposite problem. He doesn't want players to be hoarding gold, but he rather wants them to be regularly spending it.

I think a better way of going about it is to make it so that players have regular reasons to be spending gold, enough to have little maintenance.

Stealing a few ideas from other games:


Players "Spend" experience when they rest. Their rest conditions determine how much of a % of real experience they earn. Resting in a grand hotel earns x2 experience, where camping without a tent earns x0.5.
Items break. Ropes get worn. Armor gets holes in it. Weapons rust and get dinged up. There are regular reasons to perform maintenance or to upgrade your items.
Gold is rare. Maybe the reason players buy cheaper things is because it's the only things they can afford. Maybe most of the requests they fulfill are ones belonging to the common folk, who may not have more than a few gold to spare. Start small, and work your way up. A grappling hook might be a better adventuring investment than a suit of armor, at least for a while.
Traps are common, and circumvented with the right tools. Maybe adventurers use their tools to mitigate damage (which means that attempting certain activities, like climbing, without tools is especially difficult/dangerous)
Damage is real. Maybe damage is a major problem. Rather, maybe the life you regain when you rest comes from Hit Dice, and you only regain 2 of your Hit Die a day (maybe 4 with Medicine training). This really slows down natural healing, so it might be favorable to stock up on healing potions and find ways to circumvent traps.
Gold is heavy. Add encumbrance rules, and make it so that gold is fairly realistic in how heavy it is. Carrying around 1k gold might sound fun...until it isn't.
Currency is toxic. Maybe the currency of the world is a special kind of magical stone that's toxic in high levels when it's not properly stored. The more you carry around, the less restful your mind is, causing a loss in % experience gained, or maybe it reduces how much your maximum HP is.



You could also make gold and resources inherently special or magical. Like a currency that you're charged with (soul energy, or something), that you spend on various items, and it can't be refilled until it's completely drained, or unless you replace your current capacity with a higher one (so you can lose your 30 to absorb someone's 40). This way, players can only truly afford things after earning them from their last mission. It also makes looting enemies less valuable, while also incentivizing the player to spend as much as possible.

[KyleG]

If you want a world of murder hobos you could trade in breaths, the last breath of air a living being has can be infused in special gems or something.

[LordEntrails]

A couple of thoughts.

- If players don't get more gold until they spend what they have, they are going to get the impression that gold is rare, and worth hoarding. Hence worsening what you perceive as a problem.

- Give them reasons to spend gold. i.e. present challenges that require specific gear (grappling hooks, etc). Silvered weapons for fighting specific types of creatures (don't get carried away with different weapon materials, imo that is a major drawback or previous editions). Armor just doesn't always fit, it takes days/weeks to make a suit of plate that fits, so better buy that chain shirt when you find one that fits!

- Hoarding gold is dangerous. Carrying around a 100 or 2000 gold coins makes you a target not just for thieves, but for bandits as well. Item wealth does not attract the nefarious like untraceable coins and gems do.

- Don't worry about it. Focus on the aspects the players find fun and ignore the parts that are dis-congruous.

[MoiMagnus]

I assume your players are travelling a lot, because otherwise I don't have a lot of ideas.

Suggestion 1: No common currency.

There are no common currency. Using currency from the nearby kingdom is difficult, and you might need to negotiate a lot to have it accepted, sometimes at not more than half its true value. Even within a kingdom, local lords frequently have their own currency, which are not recognised by nearby lords, but they insist on local market exclusively using their currency.
The easiest is just to spend everything before moving.

Suggestion 2: Early paper money.

The world is slowly developing paper money, as using golds and gems is highly unpractical.
As in our world, the first "paper money" with just bond emitted by some lords or institutions which are "promise of gold" if you give back the bond to the bank/lord/state.
The more money is worth the bond, the more security measures is taken (probably magical glyphs for the most expensive ones)

Then you can just exchange "promises of gold" against some goods. However, here is the important part:
The farther away you are from the lord which emitted the bond, the less it is worth money.
Indeed, if you want to cash out, you need to travel (which is expensive and risky), or pay someone else to do it for you (which is less expensive, but more risky).

Once you've explained that, just said to your players "Well, taking care of the administrative details of all of that is a nightmare, so unless very specific cases, please consider you lose in average 10% of money when you change of town, and in average 50% of your money when you change of kingdom. This average already takes in account that you might in the future come back to a previous city you visited."

[Demonslayer666]

Tempt them with stuff they might want to spend money on.

Fancy cloths, custom designed weapons and armor, food delicacies, etc. Write up some great descriptions of items, and have the sales person talk them up, "this was used once by a great hero..."

You can also have a cost associated with access to places, and have those places required in the adventure.

Bribes for information. A Gambling hall. Brothel.

[AdAstra]

Rather than giving players gold at all, you can just directly give them items instead. After all, even in DnD money is mostly for use by merchants and adventurers, so not everyone’s just gonna have gold pieces in their pocket. Save a village, the villagers likely won’t have much cash, but maybe the local general store allows them to pick out some items, or someone donates an old wagon, someone else a mule or two, etc.

Even people who have money might not have enough for both themselves and some plucky adventurers, and thus might offer greater rewards if the players take items instead. For example, for a chicken farmer, the only source of cash is other people using it to buy stuff from him, but he can always raise more chickens, so he’s going to be far more willing to give those away. Just letting the players feel like they got a better deal (even if it takes the form of effectively penalizing them for taking money) may be enough to incentivize them into taking the items rather than the gold, at least some of the time.

Edit: switched some use of gold for general cash

[Imbalance]

Straight up rob them. Bandits, thieves, sneaky-ass baby dragons - they all comin' for ya bank. Better spend it soon, because the more you carry, the more you stand to lose.

[DaveOfTheDead]

Don't force purchases on them. Let them save their money for what they want to buy, as long as it's available.

[GlenSmash!]

XP or other bonus for adventurers spending gold like they might die tomorrow. Because they actually might.

Alternatively gold has weight, start enforcing encumbrance and gold weight.

[BloodOgre]

Inflation... The longer they hold on to it, the less it's worth.

[Mercurias]

I wouldn't necessarily punish your players for not doing what you want, but I would do some of the other really good ideas listed here.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned? Pets and mounts. They aren't just for Rangers and Paladins. You know your table better than I do, but if you give a couple of your players a chance to raise a Direwolf Pup they bought as a pup then most people would at least consider it for the sake of novelty. Likewise, a cool and exotic mount is worth dropping some coin on just for the sake of having one. It gives their adventure some flavor.

They also might want to hire an NPC as a porter, someone to help guard their extra gear and watch the horse and cart while they delve into a dungeon. I would see that as a perfectly worthwhile expense the party would pool its funds for, and even more it would give them an NPC to interact with while journeying if they're the roleplaying types.

You could have them be given the opportunity to invest in businesses that cater to adventurers and return after a few adventures to reap their accumulated rewards, which could well include some exotic magic items.

They could always find themselves robbed by skilled thieves if everyone fails their perception checks, or if everybody in the party is carrying a giant purse of gold, they could end up with someone cutting their purse-strings and losing in when they travel through a big city.

[Contrast]

They also might want to hire an NPC as a porter, someone to help guard their extra gear and watch the horse and cart while they delve into a dungeon. I would see that as a perfectly worthwhile expense the party would pool its funds for, and even more it would give them an NPC to interact with while journeying if they're the roleplaying types.

You could have them be given the opportunity to invest in businesses that cater to adventurers and return after a few adventures to reap their accumulated rewards, which could well include some exotic magic items.

These are good - don't punish them with petty expenses or theft. Make them want to spend the gold.

The porter suggests pimping out the cart with mounted swivel crossbows or armour plating. A supply of firebombs. Some fancy rations as a treat.

They're members of a guild and can pay to increase their rank in the guild which comes with benefits (first dibs on juicy quests, free spellcasting services, discounts - double whammy, pay money and it encourages more spending).

Home bases are great money sinks.

And if after all that they still choose to hoard their gold - well they paid the price of not getting the cool stuff in the mean time so *shrugs*

[Pex]

Atmosphere is important. If you want them to spend like the rich then treat them like the rich. They join the ranks of People of Importance and NPCs treat them accordingly, both because of their heroic deeds and the wealth that comes with it. It also means the party needs to afford the spending, so they get repeated income of treasure from their adventures.Five adventurers don't split 1,000 gold for 200 each. They split 10,000 gold for 2,000 each. They can afford an aristocratic lifestyle for a long time and are treated as aristocrats.

[Keravath]

If you want them to have to spend their money then you have to create an economy in which they spend it.

- food, drink, lodging, hirelings, maintaining a house or other base, renting a house, paying for guards/security/spell casting to protect their stuff. At some point, unless you have been generous with bags of holding and portable holes they will have so much stuff that it is impossible to carry it. Coins are heavy. They add up. Use the encumbrance system to limit the treasure they can carry. They then need a secure place to keep it.

- if they want to be spendthrifts and drink dirty disgusting water and eat bread crusts because they only cost a copper then check to see if they catch diseases, dysentery from bad water, other parasites, bed bugs, lice ... if choosing to not spend money on lifestyle costs has consequences then they learn that they will have to spend money to live comfortably. A lice infested cot in a rundown tenement might be average but it won't be very comfortable.

- if you want to have them spend more money then introduce wear and tear. This isn't a basic part of 5e but your gear breaks or wears, there will be nicks and dents in your weapons that need a smith to repair them, these cost money. Having your horse go lame will require you to buy a new horse (if you have one in the first place). If you do have horses you will need to pay stabling whether you use them or not.

Basically, you can't expect characters to spend money unless the world they live in requires the expenses as part of the characters every day lives. You can't order characters to spend money, you have to create a world with expenses and consequences and give the characters the choice of paying.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Honestly, I'm hearing a lot of terribly un-fun ideas floated here for making gold more of a pain than a reward. Lots of folks suggesting sticks, rather than carrots.

If you want your players to feel paranoid and adrift in a hostile world, have tax collectors and thieves constantly after their valuables. Why stop at stealing their gold? Take their weapons and magic items, too. That'll teach them to try to have nice things! And probably make them more inclined to kill lots of NPCs, rather than deal fairly or honestly with them. That might be actually make sense if they're staying in the slums and flaunting lots of cash, but otherwise seems like a pretty off-putting feel for staying in a nicer, civilized setting that you want your players to care about.

There's nothing wrong with making the PCs pay for upkeep, deal with wear and tear, and thinking ahead about acquiring specialty gear to overcome traps and difficult problems. That just seems like good, fair play.

But I'd repeat that gold is usually seen as one of the rewards for completing dangerous quests and tasks. So if the players want to save it for something that they'll actually value, why is that a problem? Plate armor is the gold standard for most Str-based melee builds. Players are going to want it. If useful magic items are available for purchase, then PCs will save up for them. Why wouldn't they?!? If they cannot buy anything that they actually want with money, then why should they value it?

And if currency values decrease with distance, get halved by moving to another town or kingdom for a home base, then won't that just encourage them to stay put in one place until they've saved enough to buy that thing that they actually want?

I'm sorry if I'm coming at this as bad/wrong fun, but this seems like some solutions in search of a problem. And fully capable of creating a bunch of them.

[Bjarkmundur]

Wow, these replies are amazing!

Yes, the idea is to have the group make a bunch of small purchases, and then gradually be able to make larger and larger purchases. I want to emphasize commerce and showcase 5th editions ways of spending money. This is best done by including some trading in every session. Capping which items are available manages the ripple effect on the game's power level and showcases many of the underused goods and services.

It's not a perceived problem, per se, it's more of a desire to emphasize.


Spend gold daily
Buy stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588952-PC-Wealth-Milestones&fbclid=IwAR2JqqFfq-miJ1tEee-mJEj7YK5gpBstI8Q1ltfstPGkhLnWR5BULD6UI1c)


Although it feels weird penalizing my players because they're not doing something I personally expect them to do, bandits do seem like a pretty good solution. It's reliable and realistic. It also makes rich people even more intimidating, due to the amount of protection an aristocrat must have to stay safe.
Using encumbrance is a nice way to really get the point across. I have heard very strong opinions against encumbrance. Does this added 'benefit' of using encumbrance rules make up for the negatives?

I have to agree to Lambard-O, in that maybe a narrative solution might not be that clean. I do think I'll need something that positively reinforces the act of spending gold often. I'm wondering. Maybe some extra gamey mechanic. XP feels pretty thin, but might work. We have plenty of ways to spend money, we just need something that makes it clear that "Your characters fare best if they spend gold daily on 30gp purchases instead of saving"

Thank you for all your suggestions ^^

[Pex]

The party's reputation precedes them saving the people from the various dangers. They slay orcs, goblins, bugbears, trolls, and giants. Why the heck will random bandit groups attempt to rob them because you the DM hate they don't spend money? The party is fighting undead and fiends. Bandits are supposed to scare them?

Make spending money a fun thing to do, not nickel and dime them with fees, taxes, and thievery.

[hymer]

Inflation... The longer they hold on to it, the less it's worth.

This.

Taxation is also a possibility. If e.g. a central government wants gold to get spent rather than hoarded, or if nobles want to avoid anyone challenging their economic power by hoarding wealth in something other than land. Every time you pass the city gates (or every time you do it armed, etc.), you have to pay a percentage of all gold above a certain limit. As the PCs increase in social standing, this limit goes up.

Or you can go in the other direction. Today there is a universal sale on everything in town an adventurer could want. Get it while you can!

[Wizard_Lizard]

Do you have ANY polearms at ALL?

[Sigreid]

How about just not hand waving any expenses. Living is expensive. Charge them for food, clothing and shelter. Attach social consequences and benefits to the lifestyle levels.

[ciopo]

What level are they and what is it that they want to buy, exactly?

Magic items in 5e are supposed to be extremely rare, mundane items after level [DM preference] should be a nonissue unless they want to buy a castle or a ship or whatever.

So.... what are they saving for?

[elyktsorb]

Short of magic items, or specific things you need for another specific thing. There's no reason to buy anything. As a player, I usually save my gold for big ticket items that actually mean something. Though I do also spend it on silly trinkets, like dice that cheat for you when you roll them.

Rations, room and board. I mean if I was in your game I'd likely continue hoarding money and spending none of it, given I usually play a Druid so they don't need to spend money for almost any reason.

[yellowrocket]

If you want to make them spend any money thats fine. If theyre spending some but you think they HAVE to spend MORE, I think this is a you issue, and you haven't laid out much of a convincing reason for thinking they need to. Your logic of I dont want them to save isn't very convincing. In fact that sounds like you dont want them to be able to afford nice things at a higher level, even if you say they should, because how are they going to afford those items of they spend their hard earned money now? If they dont spend I'm not giving them amything more sounds like a way to make them penny pinch even harder.

If theyre the kind of players that have trusted NPC's, you can have an NPC suggest they commission some clothes to match their new found status. Investments that have both a narrative and financial payout are worth dropping in front of them. But don't make them mandatory. Things like guild benefits mentioned above, or literally a store to sell the excess equipment they find. Gives them a REASON to spend money outside of their normal day to day expenses. A lot of this is VERY dependant of the players level and mindset. The more you clarify why you want them to spend and what you think they should be spending on the more we can help.

[CNagy]

You could always afflict them with the Cowboy Bebop curse; no matter how much they make on any given job, after fines, fee, restitution, etc for all the of the chaos they get caught up in, they are left with pocket change. It definitely promotes a "spend it while you have it" mindset. :smallbiggrin:

[Willie the Duck]

In most of my games, the players just save up all their money for multiple levels, until they can finally purchase something amazing. I don't mind them getting Plate armor at level 5, but I'd love to see them buy something else along the way.

Do you see any good way to have this work that makes sense within the narrative? I know I can always just talk to my players, but I want it to make sense to the characters as well.

I like that you have a specific goal, and are looking for ways to incentivize a course of behavior.

I would say simply make:

Encumbrance be a thing
Money act as money
No one has a vested interest in playing moneykeeper or moneychanger for your characters


To the first, you don't even need the optional encumbrance rules. The basic limit of 15 x Strength works fine. Just make it clear that you can't just keep on adding coins and it not matter. Weight is weight. Maybe more importantly, bulk is bulk, meaning....

To the second, treat someone walking around with fat stackschinking sacks of money like the oddity and attractive nuisance that it is. This does not mean robbing the PCs every other Tuesday (as others have said, carrots are better than sticks, and simply making money a burden to have won't make the Players love this new system). It does mean that thinking about how not to be robbed, and making sure that ever thief who might want to rob you doesn't notice all your coinage every time you wander into town is going to be on the PCs minds. Likewise, when the PCs attend a formal dinner with the local noble, walking in with large amounts of coin in sacks on your person is going to say something about who you are (particularly in comparison to that other noble over there whom you are competing with on a contract. The one who doesn't need to carry their life savings on their person).

With the third, there are a lot of assumptions that have slowly insinuated themselves into D&D norms over time. Along with the convenient weapons, armor, and general adventuring equipment stores that even small towns seem to end up having, there seems to have become an assumption that there are banks (that act conveniently like 20th/21st-century banks). There's not particular reason for such to be the case. Even outside actual late middle ages Europe that D&D only pays lip service to (and thus ignoring things like usury laws and all the real-world baggage this brings up), there is no FDIC, so a bank in a world of mages is just a great, big, uninsured liability. If there is someone in the business of storing and guarding adventurer wealth, or converting adventurer loose coins into platinum and gems (and other lightweight moneyforms), they would only do so as a business with a healthy margin.

Likewise, the bartender doesn't specifically have a reason to want to give you gold coins in exchange for your copper (he also would then have to figure out what to do with the now more cumbersome wealth)… but he would love to exchange your copper for his beer. Likewise, 200 copper pieces are 4 pounds in a sack that the weaponsmith has no interest into turning into 1/50th lbs of gold for you, but he'd happily turn it into a 1 lb. dagger for you.

So that's how I'd do it. Just make coinage this thing you have to worry about what you are doing with it if you do want to save it up, and then let the PCs make their own decisions. 5e is much like 2e, in that gold doesn't have an intrinsic value (at least so much as it did in 1e and basic-classic, when it was effectively XP, or in 3e/4e, where WBL and presumed-magic-item-buying made its' value very clear). You have to decide what value it has. 2e is also a time when I remember have a lot of fun with kept gold. PCs found sorts of inventive ways to both use and hang on to wealth -- Taking it all with them, but in a wagon. Most of it in false bottoms of wine casks carried along with, with only a mostly-copper decoy chest up front. And the wagon had henchmen guards. Trusted henchmen got to stay with the wagon while the PCs (and the untrusted henchmen) went into the dungeon to get more coins for the wagon. It was all fun, inventive, and probably totally bonkers.

[Bjarkmundur]

How about I create a couple of "market cards", each having a list of purchases. I'll create a few of these, for different tiers of markets. Whenever we go into the market I present this list to my players. They are not forced to make a purchase, but this really makes it seems it is expected of them. Its like instead of saying "Do you want to go to the market and buy something" I'll say "You go to the market, and can buy things of this list". It's pretty suggestive, and of course I'll allow my players to save money. But they've already seen the list, and each list only has a certain price range, so there doesn't look like there's much of a reason to save. I mean, they pass the opportunity to buy something, only to come back with twice the money and see the exact same lists of goods available.

Market Card 1
Contains items from 0-30gp

Market Card 2
Contains Items from 0-50gp

This should ticks all the boxes. It emphasizes the market aspect and frequent purchases and it also serves as a guide to what items 5e offers players to purchase. It puts a cap to what items are available, which encourages players to spend money. Then every 5 levels or so I can upgrade the market. As not to penalize my players, I'll give them a hefty sum of gold at the same time, so they don't feel like they should've saved money. So if the next list has the highest price of 100gp, I'll give my players 100gp each before we go there. This puts a clear message of "you gain nothing from saving"

What I love about this is that despite being suggestive, It completely transparent. Well, that and I love handouts ^^

EDIT: FIRST DRAFT


Wretched - 0gp per Month
You live in inhumane conditions. With no place to call home, you shelter wherever you can, sneaking into barns, huddling in old crates, and relying on the good graces of people better off than you. A wretched lifestyle presents abundant dangers. Violence, disease, and hunger follow you wherever you go. Other wretched people covet your armor, Weapons, and Adventuring Gear, which represent a fortune by their standards. You are beneath the notice of most people.
Exhaustion Level = 3

Squalid - 3gp per month
You live in a leaky stable, a mud-floored hut just outside town, or a vermin-infested boarding house in the worst part of town. You have shelter from the elements, but you live in a desperate and often violent Environment, in places rife with disease, hunger, and misfortune. You are beneath the notice of most people, and you have few legal protections. Most people at this lifestyle level have suffered some terrible setback. They might be disturbed, marked as exiles, or suffer from disease.
Exhaustion Level = 2

Poor - 6gp per month
A poor lifestyle means going without the comforts available in a stable community. Simple food and lodgings, threadbare clothing, and unpredictable Conditions result in a sufficient, though probably unpleasant, experience. Your accommodations might be a room in a flophouse or in the Common Room above a tavern. People at this lifestyle level tend to be unskilled laborers, costermongers, peddlers, thieves, mercenaries, and other disreputable types.
Exhaustion Level = 1

Modest - 30gp per month
A modest lifestyle keeps you out of the slums and ensures that you can maintain your Equipment. You live in an older part of town, renting a room in a boarding house, inn, or Temple. You don’t go hungry or thirsty, and your living Conditions are clean, if simple. Ordinary people living modest lifestyles include soldiers with families, laborers, students, Priests, hedge wizards, and the like.
Renown = 1

Comfortable - 60gp per month
Choosing a comfortable lifestyle means that you can afford nicer clothing and can easily maintain your Equipment. You live in a small cottage in a middle-*‐‑class neighborhood or in a private room at a fine inn. You associate with merchants, Skilled tradespeople, and Military officers.
Renown = 1

Wealthy - 120gp per month
Choosing a wealthy lifestyle means living a life of luxury, though you might not have achieved the social status associated with the old money of nobility or royalty. You live a lifestyle comparable to that of a highly successful merchant, a favored servant of the royalty, or the owner of a few small businesses. You have respectable lodgings, usually a spacious home in a good part of town or a comfortable suite at a fine inn. You likely have a small staff of servants.
Renown = 2

Aristocratic - 300gp per month
You live a life of plenty and comfort. You move in circles populated by the most powerful people in the community. You have excellent lodgings, perhaps a townhouse in the nicest part of town or rooms in the finest inn. You dine at the best restaurants, retain the most Skilled and fashionable tailor, and have servants attending to your every need. You receive invitations to the social gatherings of the rich and powerful, and spend evenings in the company of politicians, guild leaders, high Priests, and nobility. You must also contend with the highest levels of deceit and treachery. The wealthier you are, the greater the chance you will be drawn into political intrigue as a pawn or participant.
Renown = 3

Market List 1

1gp: Rope
1gp: Bag of Ball Bearings / Caltrops
2gp: Grappling Hook
2gp: Manacles
5gp: Healer's Kit
5gp: Hunting Trap
8gp: Mule

Market List 2

25gp: Holy Water
25gp: Acid
30gp: Hire a spellcaster to cast a 1st level spell
45gp: Studded Leather

Market List 3

50gp: Hire a spellcaster to cast a second level spell
50gp: Healing Potion
50gp: Antitoxin
50gp: Alchemist's Fire

Market List 4

75gp: Riding Horse
100gp: Common magic item

[GreyBlack]

So here's a question.

What can they spend their money on?

Are keeps available? Magic items? Or just the stuff in the PHB?

If the latter, then, honestly? They have no reason to spend their gold. Once they can afford plate, they don't need to buy anything else really.

I would offer them some opportunities to maybe invest their gold in something more lasting. Maybe they can start an inn, or found a town/city. Buy a local merchant's guild, or start up a thieves guild. All of these have adventure hooks built into them and isn't just, "Spend your useless gold."

Because, really. Gold in 5e is useless.

[Damon_Tor]

The more money is worth the bond, the more security measures is taken (probably magical glyphs for the most expensive ones)

Counterfeit prevention would be a cool function of Magic Mouth and Programmed Illusion. You could have a wizards' guild that functions as a treasury department for the kingdom who issues the notes.

[Bjarkmundur]

just the stuff in the PHB?

If the latter, then, honestly? They have no reason to spend their gold. Once they can afford plate, they don't need to buy anything else really.

Because really. Gold in 5e is useless.

Then I guess it's a matter of when you'd acquire that Plate mail.
The books suggest you'd be able to afford plate at 6th level, but that's if you keep coins as loot. If you cut the currency part from the loot hoards, and only use the art objects and gems, you've got a different game entirely. If your DM handles loot in a less-than handwavy manner, and offers you plenty of opportunities to spend money, you've got a pretty hefty shopping list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588952-PC-Wealth-Milestones), at least for the first 5-8 levels.

Then you add monthly lifestyle expenses every 4th session; which decides how well you eat and sleep (risking exhaustion), how the other people of the world look at you (and if they are willing to talk to you at all), and if you manage to maintain your equipment. Suddenly, you've got a very fluid, frequent and interactive relationship with currency in 5e.

For the past 6 months, since I started playing 5e, I never really understood the wealth aspect of the game. I thought it was clunky and useless. I've been trying to wrap my head around it for all this time, and I think I'm finally getting it:


Don't use the individual treasure tables.
Use the treasure hoard tables, but cut the coins.
Give your players a list of things they can spend money on, but don't show them things out of their budget.
Use prepaid monthly lifestyle expenses, and adding a renown and exhaustion level to each lifestyle.

[Sigreid]

I would go a different route. Why not just regularly confront them with situations that they can clearly see on the planning phase would go easier with the right contacts and equipment and let them do what they want with that information.

[Willie the Duck]

Because, really. Gold in 5e is useless.


Then I guess it's a matter of when you'd acquire that Plate mail.
The books suggest you'd be able to afford plate at 6th level, but that's if you keep coins as loot. If you cut the currency part from the loot hoards, and only use the art objects and gems, you've got a different game entirely. If your DM handles loot in a less-than handwavy manner, and offers you plenty of opportunities to spend money, you've got a pretty hefty shopping list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588952-PC-Wealth-Milestones), at least for the first 5-8 levels.

Then you add monthly lifestyle expenses every 4th session; which decides how well you eat and sleep (risking exhaustion), how the other people of the world look at you (and if they are willing to talk to you at all), and if you manage to maintain your equipment. Suddenly, you've got a very fluid, frequent and interactive relationship with currency in 5e.

Very much so. Gold is useless in 5e because people say it is useless in 5e and ignore it in 5e. Same with encumbrance or tracking ammo, etc. What is certainly the case is that the amount of gold you acquire in 5e, if you use the treasure charts, quickly outstrips what is available on the normal equipment guides for adventuring equipment, leaving each individual group to decide what is important to them as an avenue to spend money.

It certainly is a far cry from TSR-era D&D/AD&D, where 1) gold was directly tied to xp, and 2) there was an expectation that at level 9-10 or so, you would want one of the party fighters to carve a little fiefdom out of the wilderness and become ruler and/or general; or from 3e and 4e, where the WBL expectations lead you to funnel all your treasure back into more magic items to keep up on the power treadmill.


For the past 6 months, since I started playing 5e, I never really understood the wealth aspect of the game. I thought it was clunky and useless. I've been trying to wrap my head around it for all this time, and I think I'm finally getting it:


Don't use the individual treasure tables.
Use the treasure hoard tables, but cut the coins.
Give your players a list of things they can spend money on, but don't show them things out of their budget.
Use prepaid monthly lifestyle expenses, and adding a renown and exhaustion level to each lifestyle.


That's a method. Let us know how it works.

[Imbalance]

The party's reputation precedes them saving the people from the various dangers. They slay orcs, goblins, bugbears, trolls, and giants. Why the heck will random bandit groups attempt to rob them because you the DM hate they don't spend money? The party is fighting undead and fiends. Bandits are supposed to scare them?

Make spending money a fun thing to do, not nickel and dime them with fees, taxes, and thievery.

Because "no good deed goes unpunished, outlander." (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Lady%27s_Ring)

Rather than thinking of it as a punishment, let crime be a hook. Granted, the likelihood of having money stolen by fiat must be a session 0 discussion, but it can be a very compelling story-telling tool. If the PC's reputation precedes them, so, too, does their rumored riches. Establish high crime areas of cities, and have honest NPC's warn travelers to protect their valuables while pointing them in the direction of the market district. Give similar warnings about the laiden vaults of the rich and famous becoming open challenges to professional burglars (because isn't that what "heroic" parties sometimes get up to?), so that they will have trepidation about banking their coin. Rather than spring an annoying surprise disappearance of funds, give ample reason to expect a proportionate degree of risk to accompany their lofty gains while pointing them toward more sensible short-term investments along the lines of those described in others' suggestions above.

I previously said to straight up rob them, but that was an oversimplification and I now see that it's an unpopular approach. But I think that an anticipated measure of in-world criminal enterprise that targets the party as they gain infamy could be done in a way that can be cool and interesting and compels characters to be more spendy without causing the players to feel that they, personally, are victims of DM theft.

[Man_Over_Game]

Because "no good deed goes unpunished, outlander." (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Lady%27s_Ring)

Rather than thinking of it as a punishment, let crime be a hook. Granted, the likelihood of having money stolen by fiat must be a session 0 discussion, but it can be a very compelling story-telling tool. If the PC's reputation precedes them, so, too, does their rumored riches. Establish high crime areas of cities, and have honest NPC's warn travelers to protect their valuables while pointing them in the direction of the market district. Give similar warnings about the laiden vaults of the rich and famous becoming open challenges to professional burglars (because isn't that what "heroic" parties sometimes get up to?), so that they will have trepidation about banking their coin. Rather than spring an annoying surprise disappearance of funds, give ample reason to expect a proportionate degree of risk to accompany their lofty gains while pointing them toward more sensible short-term investments along the lines of those described in others' suggestions above.

I previously said to straight up rob them, but that was an oversimplification and I now see that it's an unpopular approach. But I think that an anticipated measure of in-world criminal enterprise that targets the party as they gain infamy could be done in a way that can be cool and interesting and compels characters to be more spendy without causing the players to feel that they, personally, are victims of DM theft.

I could see it. Crime organization has the players on their radar, hires assassins to clean them up. "You get paid half now, half when you're done, and another half off of their corpse".

[Hypersmith]

The way I've always approached this is making thing consistently available if they're in appropriate areas for spending. It they want to save for bigger stuff, up to them. If they want to spend - because spending is fun - they can do that. If cool stuff is available, they'll want to get it.

You are in control of the income. If you then want them to get big purchases at a certain point, give em a bunch of money.

[Man_Over_Game]

The way I've always approached this is making thing consistently available if they're in appropriate areas for spending. It they want to save for bigger stuff, up to them. If they want to spend - because spending is fun - they can do that. If cool stuff is available, they'll want to get it.

You are in control of the income. If you then want them to get big purchases at a certain point, give em a bunch of money.

It does control the narrative a bunch. Fighting a bunch of Drow, then being told "Well, they didn't have any poison on them, and all of their weapons are rusted and not worth much" for several fights in a row is frustrating.

Tell a player that they don't get gold, and they'll start scrounging for it from anywhere they can. Throw demons at them to avoid giving them stuff, and they'll haul the demon's corpse to sell to an alchemist.

So it's not something I'd really recommend. I think giving them gold, for it to be spent, is a better way of playing the game than limiting how much gold players get. I'd rather be told I need to spend my gold being happy than be told I'm only getting paid in silvers.

[OverLordOcelot]

A lot of the suggestions sound extremely off-putting, unufun, and boring to me. I don't play D&D to maintain an accounting spreadsheet of expenditures and equipment degradation, I want to talk to interesting people, have interesting fights, and do amazing deeds. Bogging the game down to tracking equipment wear and tear and daily expenses sounds like something I'd need to get paid to do, not a game I'd enjoy. Similarly, the 'if you don't spend all of your money flamboyantly, all of the thieves in the world instantly know it and try to steal it' feels like bad railroading, not an interesting mechanic. Be very careful that you the 'solution' you implement doesn't result in players just deciding to ditch your game, if I signed up to play D&D but ended up playing "Spreadsheets and Expense Reports" I would stop finding time for the game really quickly.

[Man_Over_Game]

A lot of the suggestions sound extremely off-putting, unufun, and boring to me. I don't play D&D to maintain an accounting spreadsheet of expenditures and equipment degradation, I want to talk to interesting people, have interesting fights, and do amazing deeds. Bogging the game down to tracking equipment wear and tear and daily expenses sounds like something I'd need to get paid to do, not a game I'd enjoy. Similarly, the 'if you don't spend all of your money flamboyantly, all of the thieves in the world instantly know it and try to steal it' feels like bad railroading, not an interesting mechanic. Be very careful that you the 'solution' you implement doesn't result in players just deciding to ditch your game, if I signed up to play D&D but ended up playing "Spreadsheets and Expense Reports" I would stop finding time for the game really quickly.

Hmm...One thing you could do, to avoid making it cumbersome, is to do it in-between missions. Like have some small downtime for a "day" or two, where certain expenses are just piled up.

For example, condition of your gear gets messed up, and requires 1/4 of the cost in gold between missions (unless someone has the Mending cantrip, and is willing to spend their downtime repairing stuff for the group). Address things like living conditions, paying rent, oiling up the Marshall's palms for that fire your Wizard started last Tuesday, give your Guild their cut for using their resources, spend a little on some divination information, stuff like that.

Do it in batches, not over the course of the career. You shouldn't have to worry about the condition of your sword in a dungeon, but I think it'd be fine when the team is resting in town anyway.

[OverLordOcelot]

Hmm...One thing you could do, to avoid making it cumbersome, is to do it in-between missions. Like have some small downtime for a "day" or two, where certain expenses are just piled up.

For example, condition of your gear gets messed up, and requires 1/4 of the cost in gold between missions (unless someone has the Mending cantrip, and is willing to spend their downtime repairing stuff for the group).

1/4 the cost in gold of equipment seems completely out of whack from a worldbuilding perspective, BTW. Having to rebuy your gear every 4 'missions' strains my credibility. And either you end up with silly results like someone paying 250g/adventure to keep their spyglass from collapsing, or you have to track what equipment actually gets enough action to undergo wear and year, which moves the game into the 'complete nope' category of bookeeping for me.


Address things like living conditions, paying rent, oiling up the Marshall's palms for that fire your Wizard started last Tuesday, give your Guild their cut for using their resources, spend a little on some divination information, stuff like that.

If this is more than 5 minutes abstracted into "pay the arbitrary tax I've assigned", I'll probably skip the game. Like I said, I want fantasy adventure, not some sort of accounting simulation. I want to actually do stuff and make decisions, not handle a budget with food and rent costs, calculating guild tax returns (even if you call them dues) and whatnot. If a wizard actually damaged the town then that should be handled as part of the actual game, if not then the 'greasing palms because someone started a fire' bit is just the DM messing with people, which is not an attractive style of gameplay to me at all.

I also don't see how any of this gets the players actively spending money, they'll pay whatever arbitrary fines you impose to keep going but that just means they have less to actually spend. Putting in huge expenses like 'rebuy your gear every 4 missions' and 'pay the marshall for the fire you started offstage' encourages people to hoard money so that they can pay off when you decide to hit them with another big expense, it doesn't make spending more free in my experience.

[Bjarkmundur]

If this is more than 5 minutes abstracted into "pay the arbitrary tax I've assigned", I'll probably skip the game. As I said, I want fantasy adventure, not some sort of accounting simulation. I want to actually do stuff and make decisions, not handle a budget with food and rent costs, calculating guild tax returns (even if you call them dues) and whatnot.

Feels like you're trying to avoid Marvel's Civil war, and we all know how that turned out. I don't want to watch my artificer and my paladin pick different sides, or send my barbarian to outer space :/


If you do decide to include "arbitrary payments" I'd definitely include consequences, adventure hooks, and effects like MoG suggested. People usually don't talk to people of a lesser class, so there's a bunch of adventure hooks gated by lifestyle. Guilds might offer NPCs to anyone who donates extra or is less likely to help someone who's late on a payment, making it a source of conflict, which is good for storytelling.

Implementing a change to one's game is rarely about the change itself, but all the other things the change allows you to do.