Does challenge rating account for number?

[Conradine]

I was thinking...
challenge ratings table make an example which I found a little confusing. It said 16 orcs are ( mabye ) an Encounter Level 7.

Well, a CR 1 is worth 200 xp for a level 8 character, therefore 1 orc is 100 xp, so an enounter with 16 orcs is, as standard, worth 1600 xp ( 16 x 100 ) or 2100 ( CS 7 )?


I think number should count as something who makes an encounter harder, even much harder. Facing 16 orcs one by one is fairly simple, facing all of them means getting attacked many times every round, plus flanking. If the orcs scatter and target the PCs with arrows it becomes even harder to take them down.

The DM Guide says about fighting , like , 32 orcs: "a level 9 character is virtually impervious to a level 1 orc warrior" and "one spell or two can kill them all".

Sure, if the orcs orderly groups in a block, the Wizard can take them all. But what if, instead, they scatter and take cover?

And about the level 9 Fighter being impervious to blows, what if 3, 4, 5, 10 orcs jumps on him at once, grapple him, bring him down with their sheer weight and one of them deliver a Coup de Grace?


So, how would you deal with number and Encounter Level?

[Venger]

The encounter formula accounts for this. If you have 10 orcs (total) planned for a dungeon, and have your party encounter 5 now and 5 later, that's two separate encounters, to account for this. No further axes are necessary.

[RNightstalker]

It also mentions sometimes you (may) need to adjust the CR based upon circumstances...are they walking into a trap/ambush or is it a standard dungeon crawl? Are they fighting with tactics or just being the stereotypical dumb orc? Do they have a more powerful NPC leader? All of those things should be taken into account.

[MisterKaws]

A stereotypical dumb orc group of 32 is CR9, but fairly easy to off at that level. If they use tactics, however, you might want to change it.

Now, here's the problem: You just need two level three spells: Wind Wall and Fly, and the whole group becomes utterly useless. The Wizard can just pepper them, and don't even get me started on what happens if the Wizard decides on shooting a fourth or fifth-level spell appropriate to the situation.

[tyckspoon]

And about the level 9 Fighter being impervious to blows, what if 3, 4, 5, 10 orcs jumps on him at once, grapple him, bring him down with their sheer weight and one of them deliver a Coup de Grace?


Rules don't actually permit this - you have to get somebody Helpless to Coup them. Grappled or even Pinned doesn't qualify. There's limited ways crowds can actually contribute to an attack - it pretty much comes down to 'use Aid Another' (in which case you're limited by the number of enemies that can actually reach the same target at once, and you're spending 4-8 enemy actions to deal 1 enemy's worth of damage) or 'everybody attack individually and hope you roll enough 20s to make it work' (which, depending on the target Fighter, might require a literal army shooting at him.)

[Clementx]

The xp for a creature is based only on its CR, the level/number of the pcs, and special circumstances. It falls to the DM to determine what is a fair encounter. A CR+/-8 away from average level of four pcs is explicitly DM fiat. Practically, +/-3 is better. Using several weaker monsters is safer, especially when challenging larger parties. When it comes to using tactics and terrain, that is a multiplier on top.

Read up on the difference between CR and EL (encounter level). The first is for xp, the second is to avoid boring or TPKing your table.

[Conradine]

Now, here's the problem: You just need two level three spells: Wind Wall and Fly, and the whole group becomes utterly useless.

Javelins and spears instead of arrows. Only 30% chance of being deflected. If the room is small enough, longspears.



There's limited ways crowds can actually contribute to an attack - it pretty much comes down to 'use Aid Another' (in which case you're limited by the number of enemies that can actually reach the same target at once, and you're spending 4-8 enemy actions to deal 1 enemy's worth of damage)

They can aid each other and immobilize the fighter in a grapple, then strip him of his equipment.

[MisterKaws]

Javelins and spears instead of arrows. Only 30% chance of being deflected. If the room is small enough, longspears.

If the room is small enough, Polymorph the Fighter into a Nine-Headed Pyrohydra, which has a technically (Ex) Breath since its type isn't mentioned in the description.

[Crake]

Rules don't actually permit this - you have to get somebody Helpless to Coup them. Grappled or even Pinned doesn't qualify. There's limited ways crowds can actually contribute to an attack - it pretty much comes down to 'use Aid Another' (in which case you're limited by the number of enemies that can actually reach the same target at once, and you're spending 4-8 enemy actions to deal 1 enemy's worth of damage) or 'everybody attack individually and hope you roll enough 20s to make it work' (which, depending on the target Fighter, might require a literal army shooting at him.)

It takes a minute to bind someone with rope, and a bound character is helpless, so if the orcs can keep him pinned long enough while one of them ties him up, then they can deliver a coup de grace.

[HouseRules]

The xp for a creature is based only on its CR, the level/number of the pcs, and special circumstances. It falls to the DM to determine what is a fair encounter. A CR+/-8 away from average level of four pcs is explicitly DM fiat. Practically, +/-3 is better. Using several weaker monsters is safer, especially when challenging larger parties. When it comes to using tactics and terrain, that is a multiplier on top.

Read up on the difference between CR and EL (encounter level). The first is for xp, the second is to avoid boring or TPKing your table.

Decreases to EL also decrease CR, but increases to EL does not increase CR.

Example:
A CR 2 monster could be EL 1, 2, or 3 depending upon the environment.
If the environment is unfavorable to the monster, then EL is 1, and CR becomes 1.
If the environment is neutral to the monster, then EL stays 2, and CR stays 2.
If the environment is favorable to the monster, then EL is 3, but CR stays 2.

2 CR 2 monster could be EL 3, 4, or 5 depending upon the environment.
If the environment is unfavorable to the monster, then EL is 3, and CR becomes 1 per monster.
If the environment is neutral to the monster, then EL stays 4, and CR stays 2 per monster.
If the environment is favorable to the monster, then EL is 5, but CR stays 2 per monster.

Lanchester's Law is a differential equation to measure combat efficiency.

Lanchester's Square Law is one of the two extreme.
Square Law means everybody could select their target, so focus fire is a possibility.
This Law occurs when one side optimize.
Attrition is not counted for the optimized side.

1 -> 1
2 -> 4
3 -> 9
4 -> 16


Lanchester's Triangular Law is the middle of the two extreme.
When both side optimizes, and attrition comes, this is the law to use.

1 -> 1
2 -> 3
3 -> 6
4 -> 10



Lanchester's Linear Law is the other extreme.
Linear Law means nobody could select their target, so focus fire cannot be made.
This Law is enforced with all mass combat rules for units representing multiple characters.

1 -> 1
2 -> 2
3 -> 3
4 -> 4


Experience Award in D&D always assumes Lanchester's Linear Law holds true.
That's why fighting 1 CR 1 monster twice gives 600 XP, and fighting 2 CR 1 gives 600 xp.

If optimization occurs on the party side, then a party of 4 is 16 times stronger than a party of 1.
If attrition occurs (optimization on both side), then a party of 4 is 10 times stronger than a party of 1.
If pessimization occurs on the party side, then a party of 4 is 4 times stronger than a party of 1.

So xp needs to be adjusted by quantity if the optimization level (focus fire) changes.
Otherwise, fighting larger groups could be more lethal in the long run, because of more natural 20's.

[MisterKaws]

Calculus class PTSD trigger

And that's why we just handwave that all and guesstimate the XP.

[HouseRules]

And that's why we just handwave that all and guesstimate the XP.

Uh, accounting for the dice roles and optimization level is too complicated.


TYPICAL MATH CORE CLASSES
Semester 1: Calculus I, Algebra-Based Probability and Statistics
Semester 2: Calculus II, Linear Algebra
Semester 3: Calculus III, Differential Equation
Semester 4: Calculus-Based Probability and Statistics, Advanced Inductive Reasoning
Semester 5: Real Analysis I, Abstract Algebra I
Semester 6: Real Analysis II, Abstract Algebra II

Differential Equation is beyond just Calculus (I and II).
Sometimes Calculus III is split into Differential Multivariate (III) and Integral Multivariate (IV).

[MisterKaws]

Uh, accounting for the dice roles and optimization level is too complicated.


TYPICAL MATH CORE CLASSES
Semester 1: Calculus I, Algebra-Based Probability and Statistics
Semester 2: Calculus II, Linear Algebra
Semester 3: Calculus III, Differential Equation
Semester 4: Calculus-Based Probability and Statistics, Advanced Inductive Reasoning
Semester 5: Real Analysis I, Abstract Algebra I
Semester 6: Real Analysis II, Abstract Algebra II

Differential Equation is beyond just Calculus (I and II).
Sometimes Calculus III is split into Differential Multivariate (III) and Integral Multivariate (IV).

I know. I'm an engineering student. Just passed last week and was hoping to not see a differential equation in front of my face again till august. Never would've guessed someone would start a catgirl genocide here.

[Conradine]

If the room is small enough, Polymorph the Fighter into a Nine-Headed Pyrohydra, which has a technically (Ex) Breath since its type isn't mentioned in the description.

Scatter, take cover, turn the monster into a pincushion with arrows. The Hydra is big, and even two trees or colums can prove an obstacle.

[MisterKaws]

Scatter, take cover, turn the monster into a pincushion with arrows. The Hydra is big, and even two trees or colums can prove an obstacle.

The room is small enough for fly to be ineffective, so it's also small enough that all orcs are in range.

If there's no restriction on movement, the Wizard can just fly out of their range and kill them one at a time.

[Conradine]

The room is small enough for fly to be ineffective, so it's also small enough that all orcs are in range.

Not if it's large but with low ceiling, or if there are several rooms.
But even a large and big room can have colums, internal walls and door frames who makes movement uncomfortable for a big monster.



If there's no restriction on movement, the Wizard can just fly out of their range and kill them one at a time.

Or he can end cornered and grappled, or locked in a room. And even if not, he'll spend a lot of spells so the encounter will definetly have weight.


Anyhow, what I meant is which tactics can allow CR 1 groups of intelligent creature to provide serious challenge even for high level groups, with enough preparation.

[MisterKaws]

Not if it's large but with low ceiling, or if there are several rooms.
But even a large and big room can have colums, internal walls and door frames who makes movement uncomfortable for a big monster.

Or he can end cornered and grappled, or locked in a room. And even if not, he'll spend a lot of spells so the encounter will definetly have weight.

Anyhow, what I meant is which tactics can allow CR 1 groups of intelligent creature to provide serious challenge even for high level groups, with enough preparation.

I wrote a super long text then pressed back by mistake and lost all of it, so I'll be short.

Wizards can use flight and a fifty-something crossbow bolts to murder the orcs by himself if the room is high enough.

A party would never get surrounded by the band of orcs because, realistically, the Rogue/Ranger would go ahead and detect them far before they noticed the party(Orc Spot/Listen +1 versus a rogue's Hide/MS of +15~20, not including range). If the Rogue carries wands, he can get some useful area off and likely kill something like a third of the orcs(a few groups banded together) without getting noticed. He'd do that from one side while the party bulldozes through on the other side, likely with a Polymorphed Fighter as well. The Orcs literally can't see where the Rogue is even as he's killing them all, because wide rooms have lots of pillars and thus lots of hiding places.

By the end of it the Rogue will maybe have lost three or four charges on his Wand of Color Spray and maybe five or six charges on his wand of Swift Invisibility(which is cheap as hell). The Wizard will have lost a fourth level spell for the Fighter Polymorph. The Cleric may or may not some spells buffing the party as well, in which case this gets even easier.

All in all they lose a fourth-level spell, wand charges totalling about 150 gp, and maybe some spells from levels 2-3. This is not a substantial weight. Maybe try using Lantern Archons for your example. Those are indeed a threat at higher numbers.

Why did it end up so long even after I shortened it?!

[Darrin]

I was thinking...
challenge ratings table make an example which I found a little confusing. It said 16 orcs are ( mabye ) an Encounter Level 7.

Well, a CR 1 is worth 200 xp for a level 8 character, therefore 1 orc is 100 xp, so an enounter with 16 orcs is, as standard, worth 1600 xp ( 16 x 100 ) or 2100 ( CS 7 )?


The math doesn't work like that. Doubling the number of creatures is supposed to increase the CR by +2. Or rather, adding a CR 6 encounter to another CR 6 encounter does not create a CR 12 encounter, it produces a CR 8 (6 + 2) encounter.

I'm not sure how exactly the math works. The chart on DMG pg. 49 more-or-less follows the "double creatures, CR + 2 formula", but as with anything related to CR... there's a lot of fudge-factoring involved.

[Morty_Jhones]

as most replies already say numbers are taken into acount for CR.

the encounter you describe sounds like an military encounter, making the orcs entitled for the cooperation feats from the heroes of battle book.

That means that for every 'ally' within 10ft each gains +2 AC and saves. If they are blocked up and have shields that is bosted by a further + 2 AC, Saves and to attack rolls for each ally within 5ft as well.......

If there in two ranks of 4, the corner orcs have a mere +12 AC and Saves and +2 attack rolls (see below).. not so vunerable now are they.

The front row is using shield and spears, they can brace, allowing them to do double damage against attackers
the second row can use ranged weapons and shoot any hero who hangs back, Ie the party wizard
and if they focus fire him, then his AC becomes mute as thay roll to hit and he takes 1 set of weapon damage (ref save Vs attack for half)

since these are FREE FEATS for army units it has no affect on CR.