[Pathfinder] What spells are available exclusively to Wizards/Sorcerors

[Zhentarim]

I’m making a spell sage wizard and am weighing whether or not I want to spend 2 feats to get eldritch heritage (arcane) to gain back my bonded item, or if I should just through those feats on item creation and buffing up my “use magic device”, which I made based on int and a class skill using traits.

[Rynjin]

How does the thread title and the body text relate to each other?

UMD serves an entirely different purpose to Arcane Bond since the latter can be used for any situation but the former is going to be utility only since the DCs suck. There's also nothing stopping you from getting both, since skills and Feats are separate resource pools.

[Jack_Simth]

How does the thread title and the body text relate to each other?
I admit I'm a little lost on that one too.

UMD serves an entirely different purpose to Arcane Bond since the latter can be used for any situation but the former is going to be utility only since the DCs suck.He's specifically after Arcane Bond, and I can see wanting that back - it's a 1/day "Oh, yes, I do have that spell" when you have something unexpected pop up... although it gets a little wonky for a Wizard taking it, as it's a spell known rather than in his spellbook....

There's also nothing stopping you from getting both, since skills and Feats are separate resource pools.
They are, but Skill Focus(Use Magic Device) goes a decent ways on a Wizard (especially at low levels) as the Wizard's Charisma will not be so grand and the Wizard does not natively get Use Magic Device as a class skill.

[Rynjin]

They are, but Skill Focus(Use Magic Device) goes a decent ways on a Wizard (especially at low levels) as the Wizard's Charisma will not be so grand and the Wizard does not natively get Use Magic Device as a class skill.

Pragmatic Activator (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/pragmatic-activator/) is a wunderbar trait. It solves the larger those issues.

[Jack_Simth]

Pragmatic Activator (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/pragmatic-activator/) is a wunderbar trait. It solves the larger those issues.

Yes, but then you can't also take Spark of Creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic/) or Hedge Magician (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/hedge-magician/).

[Rynjin]

Yes, but then you can't also take Spark of Creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic/) or Hedge Magician (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/hedge-magician/).

A 5% reduction on magic item crafting seems like it loses out to something with a significant impact on your ability to do something.

If you're that strapped for cash, go kill some more dragons or whatever.

[Jack_Simth]

A 5% reduction on magic item crafting seems like it loses out to something with a significant impact on your ability to do something.
It adds up.

Take 10th level WBL: 62k for a PC.
Crafting effectively doubles that, to 124k.
And, of course, if you've got the time, you craft for your entire party (of four for math, here).

Now we take a 5% crafting discount. You keep 3100 of that 62k you spent crafting... your gear. And 3100 of each 62k for the other party members you spent crafting everyone else's gear. In a party of four, that's 12,400 gp unspent. Craft that, and it's an extra 26k market item (accounting for your 5% discount on materials). That's a +5 Cloak of Resistance to let you weather saves better. Or a Cloak of the Bat to let you fly nearly at will. Or a Minor Cloak of Displacement to let you get hurt less. Or maybe Annihilation Spectacles (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/spectacles-annihilation) to swap out prepared transmutation spells. And it only gets better as levels go up.

... vs. what amounts to a +10-ish bonus to one skill, that you (as a Wizard) need a lot less than most folks.

[SaintNick]

Yes, but then you can't also take Spark of Creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic/) or Hedge Magician (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/hedge-magician/).

Is Clever Wordplay (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/clever-wordplay/) not available?

[Rynjin]

It adds up.

Take 10th level WBL: 62k for a PC.
Crafting effectively doubles that, to 124k.
And, of course, if you've got the time, you craft for your entire party (of four for math, here).

Now we take a 5% crafting discount. You keep 3100 of that 62k you spent crafting... your gear. And 3100 of each 62k for the other party members you spent crafting everyone else's gear. In a party of four, that's 12,400 gp unspent. Craft that, and it's an extra 26k market item (accounting for your 5% discount on materials). That's a +5 Cloak of Resistance to let you weather saves better. Or a Cloak of the Bat to let you fly nearly at will. Or a Minor Cloak of Displacement to let you get hurt less. Or maybe Annihilation Spectacles (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/spectacles-annihilation) to swap out prepared transmutation spells. And it only gets better as levels go up.

... vs. what amounts to a +10-ish bonus to one skill, that you (as a Wizard) need a lot less than most folks.

In the rare corner case campaign where the Wizard has time to craft 62k worth of gear PER PERSON by level 10 (that's 124 days of downtime if you accelerate everything) and still doesn't have everything they need, sure.

In the average game that makes your Wizard an NPC, and that +10 to one of, if not the most powerful skills in the game (a 10, 000 gp value!) would make you more likely to be a PC instead.

There is also pointing out the issues with the specific items you chose, since you can't actually afford 2/3 of those with the savings you mentioned. You're gonna craft the Cloak of Resistance, or you're going to die (and the point is moot). Adding the Displacement or Bat properties to that is a solid 50% increase, which you can't afford.

A 5% discount is neat, but not at all build defining and not worth sacrificing a boost that will be relevant on a daily basis if you want to use scrolls and stuff off your list.

[Zhentarim]

How does the thread title and the body text relate to each other?

UMD serves an entirely different purpose to Arcane Bond since the latter can be used for any situation but the former is going to be utility only since the DCs suck. There's also nothing stopping you from getting both, since skills and Feats are separate resource pools.

Actually, with the feat "magical epiphany"which I can take at level 3, I effectively get the use of a bonded item and a familiar simultaneously.

By the way, I’m taking [MAGIC] Dangerously Curious and [SOCIAL] Clever Wordplay traits. I’m taking the “power-hungry” drawback and the [RELIGION] Full Heart, Empty Heart trait.

Since Spell Sage wizards can do cleric, druid, and bard spells in a roundabout way, but not wizard spells, I was wondering what wizard spells do not appear on either the cleric, druid, or bard lists.

[Rynjin]

That's uh, honestly something left better to you since I don't think anyone here is willing to read 1000 spells and tabulate which ones are non-recurring across multiple lists. Just go on the SRD and look for yourself.

[Kurald Galain]

I’m making a spell sage wizard and am weighing whether or not I want to spend 2 feats to get eldritch heritage (arcane) to gain back my bonded item, or if I should just through those feats on item creation
I'm pretty sure a wizard, of all classes, doesn't need UMD skill. There's a boatload of wands and scrolls you can use without it, and many wondrous items are open to everyone.

That said, crafting gives a 50% discount to all magic items for the whole party; in any campaign that gives you sufficient downtime to actually craft, that'd be a fair bit more powerful (and more interesting) than a bonded item. I wouldn't splurge a trait on a minor discount, though; there's too much competition for traits. HTH.

[Jack_Simth]

In the rare corner case campaign where the Wizard has time to craft 62k worth of gear PER PERSON by level 10 (that's 124 days of downtime if you accelerate everything) and still doesn't have everything they need, sure.
Unless you're already accounting for a valet familiar (which I suppose you could be), your math seems off. Crafting's based on market price, so in a four-person party, that's 124 / 2 * 4 = 248 days of crafting (and either 124 or 166 with a valet familiar, the difference depending on which math is considered appropriate by the DM).

But that's spread out over leveling up nine times[i]. That averages out to just a little over 27 days of down time between levels. And you can actually craft [I]during adventures; sure, there's some penalties for doing so, but you're not usually going to be adventuring for 16 hours a day (there's a reason DM's complain about the 10 minute adventuring day). Per the Crafting Rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/), "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items." Prepare a few copies of Keep Watch for the party so you can get your eight hours in during a single block, and get a nice (Extended, depending on level) Rope Trick so you're away from distractions, and you can craft at full speed while adventuring.

Oh yes, and when you're doing your own crafting for specific folks, you have the option of the Intentionally Crafting Cursed Items (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items/#Intentionally_Crafting_Cursed_Items) rules to get even more discounts. I'm fond of "The cost of dependent items, which function only in certain situations, is reduced by 30%" - between "In the hands of a nonspellcaster" and "In the hands of a spellcaster" it's a free 30% discount on the market price for everyone. And as it affects market price, it also reduces the crafting time.


In the average game that makes your Wizard an NPCWhat, does your campaign run at such a breakneck pace that you go from level 1 to level 20 in two months of game time (19 level ups, 13 encounters per level up, 4 encounters per day = 61.75 days)? You consider that "an average game"?

Your argument seems to mostly boil down to "There's no time for crafting in an average game" - which does not match my experiences. And seems odd, as Pathfinder has downtime rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime/), Retraining (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining), Training Animals (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/handle-animal/), and many other things that take weeks or months besides crafting. If an average game has no down time... what's the point of having rules for what you do during those times?

Also, the Crafting feats are often touted as being some of the more powerful feats in the game, so I'm reasonably confident that there's a rather lot of games with decent amounts of down-time. It's just that the down time doesn't take spotlight time.


, and that +10 to one of, if not the most powerful skills in the game (a 10, 000 gp value!) would make you more likely to be a PC instead.

How often is the OP going to use that? He's gets spontaneous non-combat access to the entire Cleric, Druid, and Bard list by giving up his familiar... and he's a Wizard. In combat, Wizard spells are generally the best choices anyway. Yes, UMD is a very good skill, but it's very low-application here.


There is also pointing out the issues with the specific items you chose, since you can't actually afford 2/3 of those with the savings you mentioned. You're gonna craft the Cloak of Resistance, or you're going to die (and the point is moot). Adding the Displacement or Bat properties to that is a solid 50% increase, which you can't afford.
They were largely random examples based on pricing off the wondrous item tables at about that number (I picked a few things of 24k, 25k, and 26k market). The specific items don't much matter.

And there's other sources of resistance bonuses to saves. Take a look at the Otherworldly Kimono (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/kimono-other) or Robe of the Archmagi (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-the-archmagi) - either of those have a +4 Resistance (1/day +6 for the Otherworldly Kimono), grant other useful boosts, and are body slot rather than shoulders.

A 5% discount is neat, but not at all build defining and not worth sacrificing a boost that will be relevant on a daily basis if you want to use scrolls and stuff off your list.In the OP's case, that's actually a rather big "if".

Edit:
Although it's a moot point, as the OP has declared what traits he's grabbed already. So nevermind.


Actually, with the feat "magical epiphany"which I can take at level 3, I effectively get the use of a bonded item and a familiar simultaneously.

By the way, I’m taking [MAGIC] Dangerously Curious and [SOCIAL] Clever Wordplay traits. I’m taking the “power-hungry” drawback and the [RELIGION] Full Heart, Empty Heart trait.

Since Spell Sage wizards can do cleric, druid, and bard spells in a roundabout way, but not wizard spells, I was wondering what wizard spells do not appear on either the cleric, druid, or bard lists.
Eh. You can get a listing from Here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/tools/spells-db/), although it's quite out of date.

However: It's the wrong question. You're asking because you want to know what spells you don't need to take natively for your Wizard casting as you can get them via the archetype. But here's the thing: You don't want to take only wizard-exclusive spells for your native wizard casting. You want to take the spells you'll use when time matters (combat, generally) due to the extra rounds of casting from the archetype, or the spells you'll use often (due to the extra spell slot cost of casting from the archetype).

[Rynjin]

Unless you're already accounting for a valet familiar (which I suppose you could be), your math seems off. Crafting's based on market price, so in a four-person party, that's 124 / 2 * 4 = 248 days of crafting (and either 124 or 166 with a valet familiar, the difference depending on which math is considered appropriate by the DM).

That's accounting for Accelerated Crafting from the base Magic Item Creation Rules page in the CRB, where you take a +5 to the DC to halve the crafting time. 62k gold x4 is 248, which is 248 days (you can only craft 1000 gp per day, effectively), halved is 124.


Oh yes, and when you're doing your own crafting for specific folks, you have the option of the Intentionally Crafting Cursed Items (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items/#Intentionally_Crafting_Cursed_Items) rules to get even more discounts. I'm fond of "The cost of dependent items, which function only in certain situations, is reduced by 30%" - between "In the hands of a nonspellcaster" and "In the hands of a spellcaster" it's a free 30% discount on the market price for everyone. And as it affects market price, it also reduces the crafting time.

I have never played or even heard of a GM who would allow this. Though I have seen plenty of threads on Paizo's site over the years making fun of said rule (when people were still allowed to do that).


But that's spread out over leveling up nine times[i]. That averages out to just a little over 27 days of down time between levels. And you can actually craft [I]during adventures; sure, there's some penalties for doing so, but you're not usually going to be adventuring for 16 hours a day (there's a reason DM's complain about the 10 minute adventuring day). Per the Crafting Rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/), "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items." Prepare a few copies of Keep Watch for the party so you can get your eight hours in during a single block, and get a nice (Extended, depending on level) Rope Trick so you're away from distractions, and you can craft at full speed while adventuring.

...


What, does your campaign run at such a breakneck pace that you go from level 1 to level 20 in two months of game time (19 level ups, 13 encounters per level up, 4 encounters per day = 61.75 days)? You consider that "an average game"?

Generally, yes. I've played or run somewhere close to 100 games of Pathfinder over the last 8 years, so my sample size is pretty good. That includes a solid mix of homebrew (the majority) and Adventure Paths (Carrion Crown, Skull and Shackles, Serpent's Skull, Mummy's Mask, Way of the Wicked, Age of Worms, Reign of Winter, and Rise of the Runelords).

Of the homebrew campaigns, only 2 had enough downtime for regular crafting: Postapocthulhu Pathfinder RAW (a Mythic campaign where my character RKO'd Cthulhu at the end) and Conquest of Ambervale (a currently ongoing[?] wilderness exploration game with a set base of operations in the titular Ambervale).

Of the APs, Skull and Shackles is the only one with significant downtime in every book after the 1st one. We'll throw Kingmaker on that pile even though I haven't played it, since it's got enough downtime in it to justify printing an entire book full of ways to make use of it.

Age of Worms is pretty breakneck until you suddenly get about 3 months of uninterrupted downtime halfway through, and from then on resumes its pace up to the part I'm at now.


Your argument seems to mostly boil down to "There's no time for crafting in an average game" - which does not match my experiences. And seems odd, as Pathfinder has downtime rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime/), Retraining (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining), Training Animals (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/handle-animal/), and many other things that take weeks or months besides crafting. If an average game has no down time... what's the point of having rules for what you do during those times?

Most of those options come from Ultimate Campaign, which is half a collection of things they made for players to do in Kingmaker and figured might go over well in other campaigns too. In the outlier games people can take weeks or months at a time to regularly do those things (like Kingmaker, where PCs can conceivably die of old age and need to be replaced halfway through), they're good rules.

Some also, as you mentioned, can be done in snippets throughout the day, which brings us here:


Also, the Crafting feats are often touted as being some of the more powerful feats in the game, so I'm reasonably confident that there's a rather lot of games with decent amounts of down-time. It's just that the down time doesn't take spotlight time.

Crafting Feats are certainly powerful, and can make things easier on the party, but my main point is getting an extra 5% discount is pretty meaningless, because realistically speaking not all of your gear is going to be crafted. Your Wizard is going to occasionally find a Cloak of Resistance, or Headband of Intellect, or whatever he needs and that nickles and dimes the value out of that 5% considerably over the lifespan of a character. Unless your character is dedicating to doing NOTHING BUT CRAFTING, the value received isn't worth the opportunity cost of the Trait. Even in your own example you're only saving 12.4k gold if you craft every piece of gear your character AND the entire party altogether uses for the entire campaign, which is ludicrous; it's not going to happen.

The main value is having necessities on demand when the game is unkind to your party for whatever reason, not the discount (though it's certainly a nice cherry on top).


How often is the OP going to use that? He's gets spontaneous non-combat access to the entire Cleric, Druid, and Bard list by giving up his familiar... and he's a Wizard. In combat, Wizard spells are generally the best choices anyway. Yes, UMD is a very good skill, but it's very low-application here.

He gets that ability once per day (up to 4 at very high levels), so if the answer to "how often is he going to use that" is "more than once per day", the investment has already paid for itself well and over a 5% discount on whatever fraction of his gear he crafts.

I'd also dispute that the best combat spells show up on the Wizard list, at least for terms of that ability. Easy access to Good Hope alone is worth the investment.


They were largely random examples based on pricing off the wondrous item tables at about that number (I picked a few things of 24k, 25k, and 26k market). The specific items don't much matter.

And there's other sources of resistance bonuses to saves. Take a look at the Otherworldly Kimono (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/kimono-other) or Robe of the Archmagi (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-the-archmagi) - either of those have a +4 Resistance (1/day +6 for the Otherworldly Kimono), grant other useful boosts, and are body slot rather than shoulders.

And neither of which are affordable at your stated level in the hypothetical scenario (10th), or any level below. You've only got 62k gold to play with and can't spend more money on a single item than half your WBL (1/3 in many GM's games). Not that you'd really want to. Great items at level 13-16, but only after you've used a CLoak of Resistance for your first 12 levels.

[Jack_Simth]

You clearly missed my edit. Moot point. OP's already selected traits.

Also: We have different experiences. Sure, my example may have been on the high side, but your argument mostly does boil down to "Crafting doesn't work out that well"... and that's campaign-dependent, and we've got different experiences with campaigns. Experiences are observations: They aren't arguable. It's like two hikers talking about bear spray:

A: Why would you ever carry bear spray? I've done over 1,000 miles of different trails, and I've only ever even seen a bear from long range. There's no point.
B: Are you crazy man? I always pack three full cans, and on four separate occasions I've gone all the way through two of them.

A will never convince B. B will never convince A. Why? They hike different trails. There's no point.