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Zaile
2019-06-26, 05:56 AM
I'm building a summoner cohort. I've looked at the Spellcaster generic class before, but never tried it. Now that I'm getting some feedback, this has turned into a mini-guide. My first one.

Since it can cast like a sorcerer and can work off Intelligence, with access to 4 lists, I thought "maybe." The spells known were the problem. If you take the Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster lines, Planar Ally/Binding, Gate, as well as all the other odd ones, you miss out on Polymorph, Shapechange, Wish, Timestop, etc. Not that an entire spell list of summon spells would be bad, they can do almost all of that, but you get no other goodies that pilfering from 4 lists can do. So you have to be more selective, dip a but, but it can work. Going Archivist is just too easy. This could also work changing to Wisdom and casting as divine, you'll just have fewer skill points.

I got a lot of the classes, feats, etc from Endarire's "Summoning Handbook (AKA the Summoner's Guide) for D&D 3.5 (summoning_handbook)" on EN World. Check it out if you want to summon.
Also check out "Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook" super job there. I haven't played a druid beyond low levels, so it was really helpful.
Wizards' Handbook by Dictum Mortuum, Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards and Solo's Spontaneous Sorcerer guide help a lot with spells and tricks too.

Spellcaster Summoner
Focusing on Summoning with a little gish in there for added defense and utility. Surprisingly, the feat taxes are necessary feats, and since you use Int, skill ranks are easy. You will lose at least one, maybe two, caster levels in the build if you go for more utility or spells known. That can be more acceptable because your feats jack up the summons' power so much. If you lose 2 or more CL, make sure it's worth it and get Practiced Spellcaster feat.

L 1-5 - Spellcaster 5 - A mix of 2 bonus feats or choice of 2 class features like Evasion, Familiar, Turn, Uncanny Dodge or Trap-finding
L 6 - Mindbender 1 - 100' Telepathy for tactical advantage, +1 CL, and never need to talk to your summons
L 7 - Dip level. Pick Sand Shaper, your favorite Martial Adept, Monk, Fighter or Cleric (Summoning Domain). I like Swordsage for Child of Shadow Stance & Shadow Jaunt. Stay mobile and concealed while you direct the carnage.
L 8-9 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Now you can buff yourself and your summons swiftly. Mage Armor/Luminous Armor is not a wasted spell known with this.
***L 7 & 8 can also be Pragnostic Apostle, any of the other PRCs below 2***
L 10-14 - Thaumaturgist 5 - Free Extend on all summons is the Nymph's kiss. Oh and you get a Planar Cohort up to your ECL for free!
L 15 - Paragnostic Apostle 1 - Take Call of Worlds for CL scaling fast healing on your summons. Combines well with free Extend. Can be filler later with 5/5 casting and the other bonuses, like Favored Enemy with spells.
L 16-18 - Abjurant Champ 3 - Finish it off for better touch attacks +5 to def. spells and 9th level spells
L 19-20+ Fill with your favorite +1 CL class

*Metamagic Specialist* (PHBII) - While not officially an option, you do get the ability to get a familiar with Spellcaster. Perhaps your DM will let you select this as well.

Other PRCs
- Spellthief 1 or 2 - I've never played one, but Master Spellthief negates the CL loss dipping. Having summons provide flanking while you sneak attack as steal high level spells and effects seems like a fun idea. Also, steal your emeny's Invisibility and Teleport escape plans.
- Unseen Seer - in 2 levels, 3/4 BAB, Full casting, free Silent Spell, +1d6 Sneak and a free divination spell know. You can select 2d6 sneak as a bonus from spellcaster 1 and 1d6 from Unseen Seer for 4d6 sneak at 7. Essentially free entry. More than 2 levels penalizes your non-divination spells
- Sand Shaper (Sandstorm) - 1 level gets you 43 spells known, but lose 1 caster level. Pretty fair trade. Touchstone feat requirement, which isn't half bad.
- Exalted Arcanist - If BoED is allowed, this gets you 4/5 casting and all Sanctified known. Exalted feat taxes
- Malconvoker - If you want to be that edgy summoner who brings demons to heel, great choice. It gives Planar Binding spells for free, but you lose a CL. 9 levels with nice benefits. If you plan to use Planar Binding mostly, this is the way to go. Thaumaturgist if you focus on other summons
- Sacred Exorcist - You know why this is here. DMM fun if you took Cleric with Destroy Undead from Castle Ravenloft. One of the legit ways to get 2 turning pools.
- Master Specialist - Awesome, but too heavy a feat tax, save this for the Wizard or Archivist build

This build is tight and you have to decide if 10 levels of Malconvoker, while powerful, are better than 5 levels of Thaumaturgist with the extra defense and utility. Also, you can Add Jade Phoenix Mage 5 in for more of a gish and still get 9th level spells at 20. Cloistered Cleric at 1 is another wrinkle for trading in those domain powers for Knowledge Devotion and other devotion feats. You have the Int and skill points to max Knowledge Devotion.

Feats
- Spell Focus Conjuration - The only real prerequisite for the entire build!
- Greenbound Summoning - Lost Empires of Faerun - This is where you shine at until Thaumaturgist. SNA Animals are plant-template mutant monsters.
- Ashbond - Eberron campaign setting - Auto-extend SNA and another +3 to hit, stacks with Augment Summoning and Greenbound. Trade out once you get auto-extend from Taumaturgist
- Augment Summoning - Beefy monsters are beefy. Trade out after getting from Thaumaturgist, or just wait.
- Combat Casting - Abjurant Champion builds
- Rashemi Elemental Summoning (Unapprocahable East) - Blast templates for Air Elementals and Tank+ for Earth. Summoner's guide says this can do more than Meteor Swarm.
- Arcane Disciple - Arcane Spellcaster only. Get one domain's spells. Hint: Choose Summoner. Casts off Wisdom and requires 19 for 9th level. Doable with items. This + Spontaneous Summoner takes care of most summon spells.
- Minor Shapeshift - You should have Polymorph, this is swift temp HP=HD every turn or other benefits
- Metamagic - Enlarge for control, Extend/Persist/DMM if you Cleric Dip & buff. You get free Extend on your Summons and Abjurations. Rods are probably better over feats.
- Fiery Burst - This is why I have fire spells on the list. A multi-square ranged attack that doesn't consume a resource, scales, and uses CL, not BAB.
- Summon Elemental - Useful and +1 CL on summons
- Leadership - With Thaumaturgist 5, you have 2 cohorts and many minions
- Bloodline feats - Since you cast as a sorcerer, you should be able to select them
- Expanded Arcana - Pathfinder, so up to DM. It gives 1 spell of your highest level know or 2 spells from lower levels.
- Swift Concentration (Skill Trick) - 2 skill points, ranks in concentration, saves a feat. Elemental monoliths. C.Scoundrel p.89
- Innate Spell - Unseen Seer helps with one of the feats. Casting one spell 3/day could be very good for a build at high levels.
- Rapid Spell - Get summons down to standard action for +1 level adjustment.
- Heighten Spell - Never hurts to crank up the DCs on the couple save of suck spells you have.
- Invisible Spell - Cityscape. How is this +0? Invisible wall of X is fun when setting a trap. And then this ----\/
- Sculpt Spell - Another Cityscape gem. I really love this. Flamestrike as a cone and, as written, it could change a Prismatic Sphere to a fixed cone..... Get a rod and go to town
- Imbued Summoning: +1 level to give summons a free 3rd level or lower spell effect. Since your summons are already 1 round actions, this helps economy in a surprise round. You have Abjurant Champion AND Luminous Armor/Greater Mage Armor ... +10/11 AC to summons w/NO action is insane. Plus their decked out in shiny daylight spirit armor. Or Haste, or Invisibility. Invisible T-Rex is a running gag in my group. They even had Circlets of Blasting once. :belkar:

From Anthrowhale. These are all 1st level only like bloodlines, so choose wisely
- Apprentice feat (Spellcaster) DMG II - A bonus spell known and change out a spell each level without re-training
- Mother Cycst feat (Libris Mortis p.28) - 9 necromantic cyst spells
- Cerebosis Feat Dragon #330 p.27 - You're Marius from Diablo II and get to conjure things that make Cthulhu proud

From Vizzerdrix
- Spontaneous Summoner (CD) - Spontaneously cast SNA as Druid can. Requires a bit of Wisdom, or being a divine Spellcaster, but you only have to spend a spell known on SNA1

Spells
SNA=Summon Nature's Ally, SM=Summon Monster, PA=Planar Ally

For which summon spells to take at which level "The Summoners Desk Reference" on the boards is great for a breakdown of the options. The only one I'd avoid is SNA IX as the options seem less useful than SM for the same level. For a good balance between summoning and utility your summoning selection will go something like: SNA1, then SM2, SM3, L. PA, SNA4, SM5, PA/SNA6, SM7, SNA8/G.PA, SM9/Gate/Shapechange. SNA will be more useful at lower levels b/c of Greenbound, while Planar Ally and SM can be better at higher levels. If you take all the summons, you will have about 4-6 total free spells known, none above 5th.
Choose you other spells based on party needs. Unicorns (SNA4) if you don't have a Cleric or Druid, Sorc/Wizard if you are the only arcane caster. A few I'm considering:

0 Level
Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, etc.
1st Level
Charm Person (for Mindbender), Entangle, SNA1 (Greenbound cat of death), Impeding Stones (city entangle), Mage Armor, Shield, Longstrider, Snowshoes, Mighty Wallop
2d level
Barkskin, Blinding Spittle (MoF), Luminous Armor, Wraithstrike, SNA2
3rd Level
Greater Mighty Wallop, SM3, Venomfire (Serious buff for snake summons), Fireball, Heart of Water, Dispel Magic (counterspelling)
4th Level
Planar Ally (Thaumaturgist req), SNA4, Flamestrike, Divine Power, Polymorph, Restoration, Boreal Wind (the AREA!), Wings of Flurry, Stoneskin, Black Tentacles
5th Level
Blizzard, Animal Growth, Call Avalance (bury an army), Cloudkill, Control Winds, SM5, Greater Magic Weapon Legion, Hold Monster
6th Level
SNA6, Energy Immunity, Spellstaff, Valiant steed, Storm of Fire and Ice, Greater Dispel Magic
7th Level
Greater Restoration, SM7, Scalding Touch, Firestorm
8th Level
SNA8, Greater Planar Ally
9th Level
Shapechange, Gate, SM9, Summon Elemental Monolith, Foresight

Getting More Spells Known
If you want more spells, including Summons:

Frost Mage from Forstburn gets Conjure Ice Beast line and a couple others. 2 feat tax and spells are tied to prestige class advancement.

1 level of Sand Shaper from Sandstorm. Touchstone feat required, which is actually useful (pick healing). Lose a caster level, but get 43 spells including all the stat-boosters, Dispel Magic and the entire Summon Desert Ally line. Carry 15lbs of sand at all times for CL boost

5 levels of Exalted Arcanist. It's BoED and 4/5 casting, but gets you all Sanctified spells known

Rainbow Servant. I know this and the Complete Divine classes are often cited b/c they give domain access, however, RAW it does not work. From the beginning of the prestige class section "[a sorcerer] may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known." However, since Warmages and Beguilers get to cheese this, point this out and ask if your Spellcaster (Sorcerer) can add them, they need all the help they can get and there are a few good sunmmons on the lists. If someone has a Sage/CustServ ruling otherwise, please reply with it!

Arcane Preparation
There is a debatable tactic I came across from Larkas on the boards involving Arcane Preparation feat and Greyhawk Method regional feat from Dragon #315. Search it on the forum. Sadly I don't have enough posts to link. :smalleek:
Greyhawk Method is a regional Dragon Mag feat and subject to DM approval, and Arcane Preparation seems to indicate you can only use spells you know as a Sorcerer, but the argument is "Prepare just as a Wizard does," from a spellbook. Theoretically this lets you have a spellbook full of Wizard spells you've transcribed and can prepare and use in a daily sorcerer slot. This feat makes sense working this way when considering Sword of the Arcane Order Paladins and Rangers. If your DM allows this, put all the Wizard spells, including Gate, Wish, Shapechange and Summon Monster lines, into a Spellbook. This also let's you Metamagic spells ahead of time without full-round actions. If your DM lets you use Greyhawk Method, you learn 4 wizard spells per level each level after you take the feat. That's a LOT of extra spells. At the end of the day, you have an Int-based spontaneous Druid/Cleric/Sorcerer that can prepare any Wizard spell in his spellbook in Sorcerer casting slots. Awesome. Even if you don't get Greyhawk Method, you can buy/find scrolls and other spellbooks you come across while adventuring. I think it strikes a balance.

Kobald Cheese & White Dragonspawn If your DM allows this, awesome. Ask if it can stack with Spellcaster since it casts as a sorcerer, needs some serious role-play and the rest of the party not killing you at first sight to work. Trust me.

noob
2019-06-26, 06:45 AM
I'm building a summoner cohort. I've looked at the Spellcaster generic class before, but never tried it. Since it can cast like a sorcerer and can work off Intelligence, with access to 4 lists, I thought "maybe." The spells known were the problem. If you take the Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster lines, Planar Ally/Binding, Gate, as well as all the other odd ones, you miss out on Polymorph, Shapechange, Wish, Timestop, etc. Not that an entire spell list of summon spells would be bad, they can do almost all of that, but you get no other goodies that pilfering from 4 lists can do. So you have to be more selective, dip a but, but it can work. Going Archivist is just too easy. This could also work easily changing to Wisdom and casting as divine.

I got a lot of the classes, feats, etc from Endarire's "Summoning Handbook (AKA the Summoner's Guide) for D&D 3.5 (summoning_handbook)" on EN World. Check it out if you want to summon.
Also check out "Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook" super job there. I don't play druids much beyond low levels, so this was really helpful.

The Build


Spellcaster Summoner
Focusing on Summoning with a little gish in there for added defense and utility. Surprisingly, the feat taxes are necessary feats, and since you use Int, skill ranks are easy. You will lose at least one, maybe two, caster levels in the build if you go for more utility or spells known. That can be more acceptable because your feats you jack up the summons' power so much. If you lose 2 or more CL, make sure it's worth it and get Practiced Spellcaster feat.

L 1-5 - Spellcaster 5 - A mix of 2 bonus feats or choice of 2 class features like Evasion, Familiar, Turn, Uncanny Dodge or Trap-finding
L 6 - Mindbender 1 - 100' Telepathy for tactical advantage, +1 CL, and never need to talk to your summons
L 7 - This is your dip level. Pick Sand Shaper or your favorite out of Martial Adepts, Monk, Fighter or Cleric. I like Swordsage for Child of Shadow Stance & Shadow Jaunt. Stay mobile while you direct the carnage.
L 8-9 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Now you can buff yourself and your summons swiftly. Cast Luminous Armor on your summons!
***L 7 & 8 can also be Pragnostic Apostle or Malconvoker 2. Malcover is great flavor and mechanically similar to Thaumaturgist, but delays 9th level spells til 19th w/no extra defense or utility.***
L 10-14 - Thaumaturgist 5 - Free Extend on all summons is the Nymph's kiss. Oh and you get a Planar Cohort up to your ECL for free!
L 15 - Paragnostic Apostle 1 - Take Call of Worlds for CL scaling fast healing on your summons. Combines well with free Extend. Can be filler later with 5/5 casting and the other bonuses, like Favored Enemy with spells.
L 16-18 - Abjurant Champ 3 - Finish it off for better touch attacks + 9th level spells
L 19-20+ Fill with your favorite +1 CL class

As a side note, this build is tight and you have to decide if 10 levels of Malconvoker, while powerful, are better than 5 levels of Thaumaturgist with the extra defense and utility. Also, you can Add Jade Phoenix Mage 5 in for more of a gish and still get 9th level spells. Cloistered Cleric at 1 is another wrinkle for trading in those domain powers for Knowledge Devotion and other devotion feats. You have the Int and skill points to max Knowledge Devotion.

Feats
- Spell Focus Conjuration - The only real prerequisite for the entire build!
- Greenbound Summoning - Lost Empires of Faerun - This is where you shine at until Thaumaturgist. SNA Animals are plant-template mutant monsters.
- Ashbond - Eberron campaign setting - Auto-extend SNA and another +3 to hit, stacks with Augment Summoning and Greenbound. Trade out once you get auto-extend from Taumaturgist
- Augment Summoning - Beefy monsters are beefy. Trade out after getting from Thaumaturgist, or just wait.
- Combat Casting (Abjurant Champion builds)
- Rashemi Elemental Summoning (Unapprocahable East) - Blast templates for Air Elementals and Tank+ for Earth. Summoner's guide says this can do more than Meteor Swarm.
- Minor Shapeshift - You should have Polymorph, this is swift temp HP=HD every turn or other benefits
- Metamagic feats. Twin for summons. Sculpt for blasts. Extend/Persist/DMM if you Cleric Dip &buff. You get free Extend on your Summons and Abjurations. Rods are probably better over feats.
- Fiery Burst - This is why I have fire spells on the list. A multi-square ranged attack that doesn't consume a resource, scales, and uses CL, not BAB.
- Summon Elemental - Useful
- Swift Concentration - Elemental monoliths
- Leadership - With Thaumaturgist 5, you have 2 cohorts
- Bloodline feats - Since you cast as a sorcerer, you should be able to select them
- Expanded Arcana - Pathfinder level1 only. Up to DM, but considering PF sorcerer is already far better than 3.5, this should be fine for power level/balance in 3.5

Spells
SNA=Summon Nature's Ally, SM=Summon Monster, PA=Planar Ally

For which summon spells to take at which level "The Summoners Desk Reference" on the boards is great for a breakdown of the options. The only one I'd avoid is SNA IX as the options seem less useful than SM for the same level. For a good balance between summoning and utility your summoning selection will go something like: SNA1, then SM2, SM3, L. PA, SNA4, SM5, PA/SNA6, SM7, SNA8/G.PA, SM9/Gate/Shapechange. SNA will be more useful at lower levels b/c of Greenbound, while Planar Ally and SM can be better at higher levels. If you take all the summons, you will have about 4-6 total free spells known, none above 5th.
Choose you other spells based on party needs. Unicorns (SNA4) if you don't have a Cleric or Druid, Sorc/Wizard if you are the only arcane caster. A few I'm considering:

0 Level
Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, etc.
1st Level
Charm Person (for Mindbender), Entangle, SNA1 (Greenbound cat of death), Impeding Stones (city entangle), Mage Armor, Shield, Longstrider, Snowshoes, Mighty Wallop
2d level
Barkskin, Blinding Spittle (MoF), Luminous Armor, Wraithstrike, SNA2
3rd Level
Greater Mighty Wallop, SM3, Venomfire (Serious buff for snake summons), Fireball, Heart of Water, Dispel Magic
4th Level
Planar Ally (Thaumaturgist req), SNA4, Flamestrike, Divine Power, Polymorph, Restoration, Boreal Wind (the AREA!), Wings of Flurry
5th Level
Blizzard, Animal Growth (combines with Greenbound), Call Avalance (bury an army), Control Winds, SM5, Greater Magic Weapon Legion, Hold Monster
6th Level
SNA6, Energy Immunity, Spellstaff, Valiant steed, Storm of Fire and Ice, Greater Dispel Magic
7th Level
Greater Restoration, SM7, Scalding Touch, Firestorm
8th Level
SNA8, Greater Planar Ally
9th Level
Shapechange, Gate, SM9, Summon Elemental Monolith, Foresight

Getting More Spells Known
If you want more spells, including Summons take:

Frost Mage from Forstburn, Bloodline feats, ACFs, etc.

1 level of Sand Shaper from Sandstorm. Touchstone feat, which is actually useful (pick healing). Lose a caster level, but get 43 spells including all the stat-boosters, Dispel Magic and the entire Summon Desert Ally line. Carry 15lbs of sand at all times for CL boost

5 levels of Exalted Arcanist 4/5 casting. It's BoED, but gets you all Sanctified known

Rainbow Servant. I know this and the Complete Divine classes are often cited b/c they give domain access, however, RAW it does not work. From the beginning of the prestige class section "[a sorcerer] may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known." However, since Warmages and Beguilers get to cheese this, point this out and ask if your Spellcaster (Sorcerer) can add them, they need all the help they can get and there are a few good sunmmons on the lists. If someone has a Sage/CustServ ruling otherwise, please reply with it!

Arcane Preparation
There is a debatable tactic I came across from Larkas on the boards involving Arcane Preparation feat and Greyhawk Method regional feat from Dragon #315. Search it on the forum. Sadly I don't have enough posts to link. :smalleek:
Greyhawk Method is a regional Dragon Mag feat and subject to DM approval, and Arcane Preparation seems to indicate you can only use spells you know as a Sorcerer, but the argument is "Prepare just as a Wizard does," from a spellbook. Theoretically this lets you have a spellbook full of Wizard spells you can prepare and use in a daily sorcerer slot. This feat makes a lot of sense working this way when considering Sword of the Arcane Order Paladins and Rangers. If your DM allows this, put all the Wizard spells, including Gate, Wish, Shapechange and Summon Monster lines, into a Spellbook. This also let's you Metamagic spells without full-round actions. If your DM lets you use Greyhawk Method, you learn 4 wizard spells per level each level after you take the feat. That's a LOT of extra spells. At the end of the day, you have an Int-based spontaneous Druid/Cleric/Sorcerer that can prepare any Wizard spell in his spellbook in Sorcerer casting slots. Awesome. You don't get spells each level, BUT you can buy/find scrolls and other spellbooks you come across while adventuring. I think it strikes a balance.

Kobald Cheese & White Dragonspawn If your DM allows this, awesome. Ask if it can stack with Spellcaster since it casts as a sorcerer, needs some serious role-play and the rest of the party not killing you at first sight to work.
actually it is any arcane spell you know.


You can prepare an arcane spell ahead of time, just as a wizard does.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.
Benefit: Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells you know, usually for the purpose of applying a metamagic feat to the spell-but without an increase in its casting time. Preparing a spell uses a spell slot of the appropriate level, and once prepared, that slot can't be used for anything else until the prepared spell is cast.
Normal: Spellcasters who cast arcane spells without preparation (such as sorcerers and bards) who apply a metamagic feat to a spell must cast it as a full-round action instead of a standard action.
so if you get mysterious bard spells as known spells somehow you can prepare them in your sorcerer slots.

Anthrowhale
2019-06-26, 09:29 AM
Maybe consider Apprentice[Spellcaster]?

It gives you access to UMD as a class skill and allows you to trade an undesired spell for a desired spell at each level. Between Cerebrosis (Dragon #330) and Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis), you can end up with an extra 20 chosen spells known over 20 levels.

In terms of using the class feature feats, I expect that Evasion, Sneak Attack+2d6, or Trap Sense are good choices depending on party role.

Have you chosen your skills yet?

Zaile
2019-06-26, 05:20 PM
actually it is any arcane spell you know.

so if you get mysterious bard spells as known spells somehow you can prepare them in your sorcerer slots.

Thanks for the feedback.

Sadly, that's not how my DM sees it. Since it says "you can prepare any spell you know" he ruled it was just the spells I chose so far as spellcaster. Basically it only reduces metamagic casting time. As a strict reading of the feat from the book, I think he's right.

Zaile
2019-06-26, 05:40 PM
Maybe consider Apprentice[Spellcaster]?


It gives you access to UMD as a class skill and allows you to trade an undesired spell for a desired spell at each level. Between Cerebrosis (Dragon #330) and Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis), you can end up with an extra 20 chosen spells known over 20 levels.

In terms of using the class feature feats, I expect that Evasion, Sneak Attack+2d6, or Trap Sense are good choices depending on party role.

Have you chosen your skills yet?

Good finds. Thanks. I'll add them
I haven't chosen skills yet. Wanted to get the main caster side down. Will probably take UMD. My main character is the scouter/trapfinder, but you can never have too many paranoid characters. My DM loves traps and Golems sneaking up on us (not kidding). I was thinking Evasion for sure and either another feat or sneak attack. Sneak opens up some hybrid PRCs.

Love the Apprentice Spellcaster, very versatile. Changing out spells lets me fill the lower lists with more utility. This game is going epic so that makes a big difference. May also take Versatile Spellcaster to use 1-5th slots more fluidly.

Cerebrosis reminds me of Marius from Diablo II with all the nightmares.

Mother Cyst is good too. However, we have a zealous cleric of Kelemvore so that's a no-go.

Anthrowhale
2019-06-26, 08:18 PM
Changing out spells lets me fill the lower lists with more utility.

Note that Apprentice Spellcaster has no limits on the level of spell you can exchange. This means that you could theoretically exchange a spell you know which is higher level than you can cast which implies that with versatile spellcaster you could theoretically have a chosen spell known a level above what is normal...

Even if you don't do this, it means you can get an extra chosen spell known as soon as you have access to a level as long as you have some appropriate fodder spells to trade out.

If Mother Cyst doesn't work, then you might consider one of the bloodline feats like Draconic Bloodline to get extra spells known trading fodder. Alternatively of course, you can use Sandshaper as you mentioned.

Zaile
2019-06-26, 08:39 PM
Note that Apprentice Spellcaster has no limits on the level of spell you can exchange. This means that you could theoretically exchange a spell you know which is higher level than you can cast which implies that with versatile spellcaster you could theoretically have a chosen spell known a level above what is normal...

Even if you don't do this, it means you can get an extra chosen spell known as soon as you have access to a level as long as you have some appropriate fodder spells to trade out.

If Mother Cyst doesn't work, then you might consider one of the bloodline feats like Draconic Bloodline to get extra spells known trading fodder. Alternatively of course, you can use Sandshaper as you mentioned.

Reading the feat, does it limit it to only lean/change spells when you gain a level in the base class? "The apprentice only gains these benefits when he gains a level in this class"

Vizzerdrix
2019-06-26, 10:00 PM
The Spontaneous Summoner feat from Comp. Devine will save you a bunch of spells known.

Zaile
2019-06-27, 12:23 AM
The Spontaneous Summoner feat from Comp. Devine will save you a bunch of spells known.

That's great. Now all you need to do is select SNA 1 and it frees up 4 or 5 spells known. Good one

Anthrowhale
2019-06-27, 01:50 AM
Reading the feat, does it limit it to only lean/change spells when you gain a level in the base class? "The apprentice only gains these benefits when he gains a level in this class"

Not precisely. A mentor with the same prestige class seems to work as well.

Vizzerdrix
2019-06-27, 07:28 AM
That's great. Now all you need to do is select SNA 1 and it frees up 4 or 5 spells known. Good one

He can do the same trick by taking Spontaneous Healer and the Cure Minor Wound orison, if he wants to pick up some side healing.

Zaile
2019-06-28, 04:13 PM
He can do the same trick by taking Spontaneous Healer and the Cure Minor Wound orison, if he wants to pick up some side healing.

Between that, Spontaneous Summoner, and Arcane Disciple that covers almost all the needed spells for the build. Thanks! Just need to devote a bit to wisdom.

A feat for 9 spells is good.