Why are there "Lesser/Greater" versions of the same spells?

[Cikomyr]

So

I absolutely love 5e mechanics of "casting at a higher level". It fits, it resolve to some degree the linear warrior/quadratic wizard issue(now that spells have a set damage).

There is no longer Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Lesser Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, etc.. It's all Cure Wound and the spell level.

Now, why is there a Lesser Restoration and a Greater Restoration? Why Revivify, Resurrection and True Resurrection? These are all the same spells, just happen to have more potent/effective versions at higher level.

Have you guys ever considered giving someone all types of Restoration spells when they have one, and it just happen to scale with the leveling.

[CNagy]

What jumps out immediately are differing components and component costs. Lesser and Greater Restoration address different sets of conditions. But mostly it seems to be the components; none of the scalable spells to my knowledge require additional or more expensive components when you scale up, so that requirement with these spells is probably why they weren't rolled into scaled Restoration and Resurrection spells. Considering the spell lists that they are in, I don't particularly see the need to consolidate.

[Frozenstep]

It turns into a cost on what spells you have prepared for the day. Allowing a single prepared spell to handle every case means it's a no brainer, you prepare that spell and now have plenty of room to fit whatever utility or damage spells you want. But with separate spells, being a support isn't handled by preparing one or two spells, and the importance of choice is emphasized.

Also there are enough differences in the spells that it would make combining them not elegant. Components, mainly.

[nickl_2000]

The upcasting of spells typically gives one of three things


Roll more dice for damage/healing/whatever
Have the spell affect more people
Have the spell last longer


What you don't see is an upcast spell getting different spell effects. When you are talking restorations, they do different things. The bring back from the dead spells all have different spell component costs and have different requirements on when they work. That is the difference that I see.

[Keravath]

I agree with Nickl_2000. The spells do different things for different costs or with different constraints. They COULD have written them as scaling spells that said if cast at a certain level it does these things and costs this much but if you cast it at a higher level then it will do these things instead for this different cost.

Since the effects don't scale linearly or easily it is much less confusing to just have different spells that do different things and have different costs. The other side effect to this approach is that the character needs to prepare the varying versions of the spell in order to obtain the desired effects.

[darknite]

Because they're not the same spell. Upcasts usually do more of the same - effect more creatures, provide more damage/healing dice, etc. Lesser and Greater Restoration do not crossover in their effects.

[Great Dragon]

@Cikomyr
Yes.

I suppose that enough difference and tradition will keep Heal on the list.

Why have Conjure Woodland Beings and Conjure Fey?

I also dislike Lesser/Greater versions of:
Summon Demons
Conjure Elementals

Infernals need a 5th level slot to acquire.

And I wonder why the Celestials can't be bothered before 7th level spell slots.


*****
Sure, I can understand separating some of these into different spells.

Animals, Fey, Fiends, Celestials, and Elementals.


****
Place things mostly as they are.
Animals at 2nd level: CR 2 limit to start.
Fiends, Fey, Elementals, and Celestials at 3rd level.

Start with the base number Summoned, as per the "Lesser" version of the spell. When Upcasting, the Caster can then choose either a higher CR - to a maximum of CR 10; or more numbers of a Lower CR, max times four.

Like: Conjure "Celestials" would summon eight CR 0.5, four CR 1, two CR 2, or up to one CR 3 beings, and a 9th level spell slot would either bring four times anything up to CR 3, or call one CR 10.


****

I'm not good at figuring out if this falls onto the "quadratic wizard" problem, but since both Demon and Devil Summoning spells allowed for CR 9/10, it really shouldn't be a problem.

Also, by reducing the access to Fey, Elementals, and especially the Celestials, makes the game less of a magnet for "criticism" from Morally Minded People.


****

Spell component costs can still be required for higher spell slots.

If there's enough of a difference in effect or conditions: sure make a separate spell.

Personally, the fewer things I need to keep track of in the games (both Player and especially DM), the better.

[AdAstra]

@Cikomyr
Yes.

I suppose that enough difference and tradition will keep Heal on the list.

Why have Conjure Woodland Beings and Conjure Fey?

I also dislike Lesser/Greater versions of:
Summon Demons
Conjure Elementals

Infernals need a 5th level slot to acquire.

And I wonder why the Celestials can't be bothered before 7th level spell slots.


*****
Sure, I can understand separating some of these into different spells.

Animals, Fey, Fiends, Celestials, and Elementals.


****
Place things mostly as they are.
Animals at 2nd level: CR 2 limit to start.
Fiends, Fey, Elementals, and Celestials at 3rd level.

Start with the base number Summoned, as per the "Lesser" version of the spell. When Upcasting, the Caster can then choose either a higher CR - to a maximum of CR 10; or more numbers of a Lower CR, max times four.

Like: Conjure "Celestials" would summon eight CR 0.5, four CR 1, two CR 2, or up to one CR 3 beings, and a 9th level spell slot would either bring four times anything up to CR 3, or call one CR 10.


****

I'm not good at figuring out if this falls onto the "quadratic wizard" problem, but since both Demon and Devil Summoning spells allowed for CR 9/10, it really shouldn't be a problem.

Also, by reducing the access to Fey, Elementals, and especially the Celestials, makes the game less of a magnet for "criticism" from Morally Minded People.


****

Spell component costs can still be required for higher spell slots.

If there's enough of a difference in effect or conditions: sure make a separate spell.

Personally, the fewer things I need to keep track of in the games (both Player and especially DM), the better.

Well first off, it runs into the same problems as the revive spells. It can give too much versatility for just one spell prepared/known. Also, perhaps most importantly, not all casters get the same summoning spells. Wizards can summon fiends and animate objects. They and druids get to conjure elementals, with druids also getting fey and animals. Clerics just get celestials. That plus the fact that the spells have different durations, casting times, CR ranges, upcasting effects, and consequences for losing concentration makes them sufficiently different to justify separate spells imo. Summoning spells are already among the most powerful effects in the game, and one of the areas where WOTC was never able to really solve the martials vs. casters scaling. Consolidating them all into one spell makes them even more of a no-brainer. Conjure Animals alone is an S or A-tier spell assuming your DM doesn’t completely screw you on creature choice. Conjure Anything would be a must-pick for literally everyone who can cast it, which would be most casters considering it’s replacing every other summoning spell.

[LudicSavant]

The upcasting of spells typically gives one of three things


Roll more dice for damage/healing/whatever
Have the spell affect more people
Have the spell last longer


What you don't see is an upcast spell getting different spell effects. When you are talking restorations, they do different things. The bring back from the dead spells all have different spell component costs and have different requirements on when they work. That is the difference that I see.

It's basically this.


There is no longer Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Lesser Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, etc.. It's all Cure Wound and the spell level.

There is, however, a Mass Cure Wounds, and a Healing Word, and a Mass Healing Word, and a Heal, and a Mass Heal.

Lesser and Greater Restoration are substantially different in a similar sense to Cure Wounds and Heal being different.

[Willie the Duck]

Considering the spell lists that they are in, I don't particularly see the need to consolidate.

Divine Sorcerer and spells known would be the only place I'd particularly care. A cleric can burn 3 of their level+wis memorization spots if they really need multiple revify/raise abilities available at once.


Personally, the fewer things I need to keep track of in the games (both Player and especially DM), the better.

There's always going to be a balance between desire for simplicity and a desire for specificity. Yes, it means your Life cleric who was already going to have all 3 spells now always has them all memorized, but your 14th level transmuter now has all 3 revives with the "Restore Life" ability.

[Chronos]

Also, the higher-level version isn't always strictly better. Like, the fourth-level Greater Invisibility doesn't end when you attack... but it also has a much shorter duration than the second-level Invisibility. It'd be annoying if you were out of 2nd and 3rd level slots, but really needed to be able to vanish for an hour to get out of the dungeon safely.

[darknite]

Also, the higher-level version isn't always strictly better. Like, the fourth-level Greater Invisibility doesn't end when you attack... but it also has a much shorter duration than the second-level Invisibility. It'd be annoying if you were out of 2nd and 3rd level slots, but really needed to be able to vanish for an hour to get out of the dungeon safely.

You could cast Invisibility using a 4th level slot...

[Waazraath]

I think the main reason is 'tradtion'. Older editions had lesser and greater versions (or even lesser improved and greater versions), and 5e looked back at earlier editions for inspiration and to create the same 'feel'.

Without this, I really don't see any reason why they wouldn't have chosen for 1) the mechanic of casting in a higher slot or 2) choosing a different name alltogether.

[Aimeryan]

Hold Person and Hold Monster is one of those that easily could have been one spell with additional effects if upcast.

[Chronos]

Quoth darknite:

You could cast Invisibility using a 4th level slot...
Yes, you could, with the way the rules actually are. But if Invisibility said "If you cast this spell using a 4th-level or higher slot, it's Greater Invisibility", like the OP is suggesting, then that wouldn't work.

[Kane0]

Sacred Cow.

Aside from component cost, there's no reason you can't do with Restoration what was done with Cure Wounds. Just look at Bestow Curse, that upcasting section is a word salad.

[Great Dragon]

Correction: Conjure Animals is 3rd level, not 2nd.



Sacred Cow

Aside from component cost, there's no reason you can't do with Restoration what was done with Cure Wounds. Just look at Bestow Curse, that upcasting section is a word salad.

(Bolded) I see this being applied so often.
Don't get me wrong, I do have preferences for some things not being changed too much.
But, I'll at least give an alteration to something a fair chance.

And while I enjoy playing Mages, I also have problems with the Quadratic Wizard.
In the fact that I don't want my martial friends to think that I brought them along as autonomous Meat Shields.

@AdAstra
I seriously don't see enough of a difference with allowing a couple of extra spells known being available, since Slots don't change. Player choice plays a lot to the relative effect of the Caster.

Breaking spells into Lesser/Improved/Greater mostly was a 3x thing, really. Where it (mostly) made sense. But, even then making the Mage take similar spells for different levels wasn't a solution, since they now had a High punch version and Low version/s of the spell for backup.

Now, I don't want to sound rude, but changing things in the requirements of a spell doesn't make enough of a difference to justify a Greater version.

And adding "does (X) extra" can be covered by Upcasting, and doesn't need a new spell name.


***
About the Rivify, Raise Dead, and (True) Resurrection line.
I can see a little of both sides, here.

But, I kinda think that maybe only Revify and Resurrection are really needed, with the latter the only one that has an Upcast effect.
(But then I don't enforce the Diamond requirement, and allow any Gem of equal value)


***
Now I will agree that there's enough of a change to justify Cure Wounds and Heal being different.
Heal curing several different kinds of Conditions as well as hit points.

But, seriously, you could just as easily drop those Conditions into Restoration with Upcasting, and drop Heal altogether.

[Nagog]

While agreeing with the previous commentators on the components and various logistical changes, I also have to add that Magical Secrets is greatly changed by having these be different spells. Magical Secrets grants access to any spell on any spell list to Bards, however the number of those spells is limited, so having these ultra useful spells as separate spells, a Bard can't become the go-to resurrection guy without investing quite a bit of his Magical Secrets into the various levels of it.

[LibraryOgre]

As mentioned above, upcasts tend to be a linear progression of the main effect, rather than a qualitative change. The difference between Lesser Restoration and Greater Restoration isn't just NUMBERS, but also things accomplished by the spell.

You need something a bit more nuanced than 5e's spell slots to enable that (Hackmaster's spell points work well).

[Chronos]

Cure fixes HP. Restoration fixes conditions. Heal does both at the same time, using a single action. There's value in having something that does that.

It also fixes a lot more HP than Cure does. A 6th-level Cure Wounds will heal on average 32 points (assuming that your casting stat is maxed by that point, which it probably is), and gain another 4.5 for each level beyond that. A 6th-level Heal will heal 70, over twice as much, and gain over twice as much for each level beyond. Higher-level spells tend to do more than upcast lower-level spells, especially when you're comparing across tiers (like the Tier 3 Heal vs. Tier 1 Cure Wounds).

[Damon_Tor]

I kind of thought it had become politically incorrect use "sacred cow" derisively.

[Great Dragon]

I kind of thought it had become politically incorrect use "sacred cow" derisively.

I actually haven't heard any way but derisively.
Might just be me, though....

[LudicSavant]

Lesser Restoration even does things that Greater can't. It's not just a worse version of the same spell.

[Sigreid]

And I wonder why the Celestials can't be bothered before 7th level spell slots.



I think thematically, this is because the demon and devil leadership want their underlings to be summoned easily and facilitate it. After all, each summons is a chance for mayhem or temptation. Meanwhile, the celestials aren't into the whole temptation game and want man to prove his faith and devotion by doing it themselves.

[Damon_Tor]

I actually haven't heard any way but derisively.
Might just be me, though....

Well there's a pretty major religion that actually holds cows sacred, so...

[Aimeryan]

Well there's a pretty major religion that actually holds cows sacred, so...

Theres a pretty wellknown religion that holds spaghetti as sacred, too...

[Great Dragon]

Well there's a pretty major religion that actually holds cows sacred, so...

And IRL I give them respect when possible, but most don't play D&D (or other RPGs) and those that do, usually know the difference between RL and Gamespeak.

And I eat spaghetti!!!😝

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Ogre: Please stop discussing real-world religion. At this time, the phrase "sacred cows" is not considered a problem, for much the same reason that "Christmas Party" or "Easter Bunny" would not be; while they have religious origins and connotations, they are largely stripped of that in practice.

[Cikomyr]

So anyone would have an issue with:

"If you have memorized/learned the spell Lesser or Greater restoration, you are considered to also learn/memorized the equivalent of lower/higher level."

There. The point for this is to allow more flexibility to casters and not have them waste spells known/memorized on variants of the same flippin' spell.

You could also add the restriction that "as long as the equivalent is on your spell list ". So a Druid wouldn't get Resurrection.

[Great Dragon]

*Ducks* upon appearance of Ogre!
"Yessir!"


Lesser Restoration even does things that Greater can't. It's not just a worse version of the same spell.

Lesser Restoration: PHB pg 255
Remove One of
Blind, Deaf, Paralyzed, or Poisoned.

Greater Restoration: PHB pg 246
Remove One of
Charmed,
Petrified,
a Curse (including Attunement),
Any reduction to an Ability Score,
Or the Reduction of Maximum HP.

Heal PHB pg 250
Removes Diseases.

Heals Flat 70 HP, +10 per Upcast slot.
IDK, Multiply by Two after 5th level slots when Upcasting?

I'm failing to see your point?
Since Upgrades could cover the difference between Conditions removed.


Celestials

I think thematically, this is because the demon and devil leadership want their underlings to be summoned easily and facilitate it. After all, each summons is a chance for mayhem or temptation. Meanwhile, the celestials aren't into the whole temptation game and want man to prove his faith and devotion by doing it themselves.

Now treading on Thin Ice.

See, to me that's like saying you can have the Winning Lottery Ticket if you walk 500 miles and then also buy it.

Even here it doesn't make a lot of sense, since you can only get a CR 2 Pegasus for a 7th level spell slot, And even a 9th level spell slot only gets a CR 5 Unicorn. (I've always seen Unicorns as being more Fey than Celestial, but it looks like I'm in the minority, there.)

Pegasus is CR 2
Unicorn is CR 5
Ki-rin are CR 12 (Volo's)

Deva is CR 10
Planetar is CR 16
Solar is CR 21
Empyrean is CR 23.

Failed to find anything less than CR 2, or for CR 3 or CR 4. (Which the spell says you could get)
Also, no CR 6, CR 7, CR 8 and CR 9.

With the Upgrade system, you could at least get a CR 10 Deva for a 9th level slot.

<Snip>

Celestials: Their whole purpose in D&D is to counter Evil whenever possible.
Sadly: Usually by DM Fiat or Dues Ex Machina .

Now, I will grant you the fact that the DM needs to convert a lot of the old "Celestial Creatures" into 5e, for Creatures less than CR 2, to really get any mileage.

I'd like to bring back the Celestial Archons, especially the Hound.
Sadly, I don't have access to my Tablet to do that.

[Chronos]

Sadly: Usually by DM Fiat or Dues Ex Machina .
That's when a big crane lowers an angel onto the stage, who asks you to pay your membership fee?

[Great Dragon]

That's when a big crane lowers an angel onto the stage, who asks you to pay your membership fee?
That's one option.

I usually see:

The Party is in a Great Battle with (insert Fiend, Evil Monster, or BBEG) and are barely alive...
>DM Monologue<
"There suddenly appears a (flash) beam (Portal) of Golden Light, and (insert DM's Favorite Humanoid Celestial here) appears standing in full Glory. S/he pulls forth their (Fire/Lightning/Radiant) Weapon and seems to glide towards the (foe) with amazing Grace. S/he strikes a mighty blow, and with a faint cry of dispare, the (foe) falls...."

Several minutes go by with the description of the awesomeness of Celestials....

I wish I was joking.

I only use that kind of thing for when a Player actually casts Conjure Celestials, Miracle, or a Gate Spell.

[Âmesang]

What gets me is the naming convention; you've got lesser restoration and greater restoration, but you also have invisibility and greater invisibility.

Shouldn't invisibility be "lesser invisibility?" Or lesser restoration be just "restoration?" (Taking into account the "regular" restoration from earlier editions.)

Also it seems, to me, that summon greater demon should have been greater summon demon — I mean, what's so "great" about a CR 5 demon?

…and why aren't these darned spells alphabetized by their base spell name? Then again it's less of a mess than that index section.

[AdAstra]

What gets me is the naming convention; you've got lesser restoration and greater restoration, but you also have invisibility and greater invisibility.

Shouldn't invisibility be "lesser invisibility?" Or lesser restoration be just "restoration?" (Taking into account the "regular" restoration from earlier editions.)

Also it seems, to me, that summon greater demon should have been greater summon demon — I mean, what's so "great" about a CR 5 demon?

…and why aren't these darned spells alphabetized by their base spell name? Then again it's less of a mess than that index section.

Probably just writing inconsistency, or the maybe fact that invisibility itself scales up? Like, if you were to cast invisibility at 5th level to cover your whole party, I think it would be a little weird to still call it lesser. Greater in this case might be more referring to the strength of the invisibility, rather than that of the spell.

A CR5 is certainly greater than the maximum of CR 1 for the lesser version. Apparently enough so to listen to your commands, and to fight against your control every turn to try and break free. Quick, maybe if we play up how much of a greater demon he is he’ll try to kill us last.

[Great Dragon]

Slightly off topic, but sorta related:

Am I the only one that feels that Project Image isn't worth a 7th level slot?

Like, for what it does, it should be 2nd level, or 3rd at best? I mean an image that you can control (and allows you to duplicate the Sensory Abilities of a Familiar) a glorified distraction? Since it's blatantly obvious to anyone interacting with it?
(Physical objects pass through, and attacks don't do damage, or change appearance: Ie: Fireball doesn't cause even 3rd degree burns, leave visibly singed clothes, or the smell of singed hair; etc)
With Upcasting allowing more of these effects to be added?

And then use "Greater Project Image" to do all the above effects, as well as bring back the ability to actually cast spells through the Image?
Sure, nerf it to - say - up to 5th level spells, with up to only 8th level with a 9th level slot: if you feel that it makes it more "balanced".

I think that this is enough of a change to justify the addition of "Greater".