Gestalt Campaigns

[ByOdin'sBeard]

I'm considering running a gestalt campaign in the very near future, and I'm curious as to what everyone's experiences has been with them; i love the idea of advancing two classes at once, obviously it servers to create a more high-power game. with the NPC's around them also being gestalt-built, and the monsters of the world also being scaled to their power level, it wouldn't be that hard of a thing to keep balanced would it?

I'm more concerned about having to seriously start micromanaging, as a fighter who also progresses as a sorcerer will be god-awful to try and tame; but I guess that is the whole point of gestalt characters to begin with. Are there any downsides that any of you have found to be smack-in-the-face obvious? If that's the case, how did you combat them as a DM, and what are some limitations (if any) I should be putting on my party?

I would definitely love to hear both PC and DM stories, and experiences on the matter; as this will be my first time ever even touching gestalt games -- I've read over the rulings plenty of times, and how to balance worlds, but I would love to read some first-hand accounts.

[gkathellar]

Class miscibility in gestalt is tremendously variable, and will tend to exacerbate existing power discrepancies while multiplying the importance of action economy. Don’t expect it to be balanced. At all.

[FaerieGodfather]

I have pretty much exclusively run Gestalt or Gestalt-Optional games since Unearthed Arcana came out.

Parties are tougher, but not like they're higher level. Think of it more like having a larger party with more PCs... about 1.5 times as many. While there are some synergies, for the most part PCs will not be that much stronger than PCs of their own level, but they will be a lot tougher-- they will have more hit points, a lot more spell slots, and the very concept of a Poor Save will be utterly alien to them.

It's weird how much offense outstrips defense in the standard game, but Gestalt makes it much easier to close the gap.

Gestalt makes niche protection a lot harder. It helps to allow more classes, and more importantly, to encourage players to choose more focused classes over generalists.

[liquidformat]

Gestalt is as you would expect quite complex and often made more so by dms who often add some house rules into, whether you can use certain classes, multiclassing on each side, whether you can have prcs on both sides... Over all it take quite a bit of understanding to make work.

My experience has been pretty good, I find the key is finding combinations that enhance and improve each other, or at the very least don't conflict. For the most part I avoid having full casters on both sides, going with something like hexblade/cleric/divine oracle works really well using the hexblade side to debuff (his curse is a swift action and companion is a free action) so you can focus on dropping spells on them with your actions. I also like going for things like an initiator with caster, caster with rogue, incarnate or totemist with caster or initiator.

From a build perspective it helps a lot if you don't do something like archivist/wizard as that is a lot of book keeping and you only have so many actions so I don't think you are gaining much from stacking them.

[ElderDarren]

I'm in the midst of running what has been a two and a half year campaign in Gestalt. I personally love the added flexibility afforded to my PC's to crystallize a character concept into existence without overly sacrificing power. I've seen some rather interesting combos that live on in loving memory, Duskblade//Monk was in particular a nasty little devil.

I wholeheartedly suggest you try it out. I am constantly amazed by the creativity that extra side affords my players in manifesting truly wondrous things.

[Grey Guard]

I like gestalt, but not with anything.

One of the balancing factors we do with class tiers is partial gestalting. If you are a Tier 3 or 4 class, you can gestalt with any NPC class (Warrior, Adept, Aristocrat, Expert, The Vorpal Tribble's Mental (psionic NPC), Keith Baker's Gleaner). Any Tier 5 or 6 class can gestalt with any other tier 5 or 6 class or NPC class. Tier 1 and 2 are good enough and don't do any gestalting.

We've found that Monk is still bad when it's a Monk//Fighter, compared to a Cleric, Wizard or Druid. However, a Warblade//Expert has a good Will save, and excellent skills and skill points. Or Swordsage//Warrior is basically just a Swordsage with Full BAB. We've been pretty happy with the results of it.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

This is awesome so far, I know there are a couple combinations that I am very excited to see in play -- namely a rogue/sorcerer_or_warlock

[Bphill561]

I have not had a bad gestalt experience as a DM or player. If you are worried about power gamers throwing off the balance, that is more of a power gamer thing than gestalt. It gets easier in some ways, but generally I have found in mixed player groups it helps let the non-power gamers catch up some.

Also why you get more class levels, you don't end up with more feats (unless class bonus feats) or money so it is still not the best idea to mash two different build ideas together. In most cases you are not doubling the power with the extra class levels.

Generally I get pretty excited about playing a monster race if LA does not effect both "sides" of the build or taking a PrC that normally kind of sucks. Some of the partial spell casting progression PrC's are more interesting when you keep full progression by taking a base class across from the dead levels to keep progression going.

[Twogunkid]

I've run a few. Even more than a regular campaign your PCs need to reference each other because power will vary so much. Some classes synergize some don't. It varies. They are fun, but your group needs to sit together and make sure their concepts are balanced against each other.

[Axle-Gear]

...Think of it more like having a larger party with more PCs... about 1.5 times as many...

Pretty much this. My experience with gestalt usually stems from the group wanting to tackle an adventure, but we only have 3 (maybe 4) players and don't want to water down encounters to keep them manageable. Even at 4 players, you'd have to start imposing house rules or get everyone on board with leaning more heavily in the 'fluff' direction to keep the party from being a little -too- versatile.

I like Grey Guard's suggestion of rolling NPC classes into the mix to pair up with higher tier classes. It's someting I've considered for a campaign for a while.

[exelsisxax]

If you run a gestalt campaign with new players, expect a disastrous dumpster fire. 3.PF is complicated enough without the strangeness, bookeeping, and variability of gestalt.

Otherwise, it's good. Things can slow down a lot more if you have analysis paralysis players and in large parties when everyone uses every possible action and maybe a few free actions. Niche protection doesn't exist in gestalt, and PCs can do a lot of things. Just make sure you have a very thorough session 0 so the first session doesn't have an exploiter instructor wizard//sage sorcerer and a vanilla monk//fighter in the same party.

In small parties with understood expectations and good player communication it is awesome.

[Gnaeus]

We have played with gestalt and part gestalt rules. My only comment is that it makes differences between player optimization skill more pronounced. We hit a point about level 10 where one character (the wizard//monk) was so far beyond the other PCs that I couldn’t find things to regularly challenge him that were not overwhelming to other PCs.

[Dimers]

It's weird how much offense outstrips defense in the standard game, but Gestalt makes it much easier to close the gap.

That's a really interesting insight. :smallsmile:

@OP: Having some levels gestalted and some single-class is also an option if you want to ease in rather than going whole-hog right away. Aside from that, all I have to add is that gestalt makes bloodline levels actually worthwhile in quite a few cases, a result I didn't anticipate.

[Dromuthra]

Parties are tougher, but not like they're higher level. Think of it more like having a larger party with more PCs... about 1.5 times as many. While there are some synergies, for the most part PCs will not be that much stronger than PCs of their own level, but they will be a lot tougher-- they will have more hit points, a lot more spell slots, and the very concept of a Poor Save will be utterly alien to them.

It's weird how much offense outstrips defense in the standard game, but Gestalt makes it much easier to close the gap.

This is a really nice summation of what I've experienced with my Gestalt games, both as a player and as a DM, though admittedly I've had more experience with the former.

Aside from the massively inflated survive-ability of your party, you also need to realize that your party has increased options, to the point that if you're crafting your campaign in advance of the players choosing their builds, you should generally assume that the players will always have a viable answer to puzzle X, or resource denial Y, unless you're throwing around DM fiat. This is admittedly less of a problem at the lowest levels (1-5) but after that I've generally found gestalt to make it trivially easy to have a potential quick solution to every puzzle. An example might be if you designed an encounter expecting some of them to be disoriented/impeded by rough terrain and now all of them are flying. Obviously just saying that people have options is obvious, but what that actually means for campaign/encounter design is not always straightforward because you have to run through so many more potential ability interactions.

Have to say though, my absolute favorite thing that Gestalt does is allow for really interesting concepts to become viable given the presence of a second class or just a slew of dips to shore up weaknesses in an unusual primary class.

EDIT: To add a little more value to this post, here are some fun dips for would-be mage-killers out there.

Ranger 4
-- Arcane Hunter (CM 32) - Favored Enemy (Arcanists)
-- Champion of the Wild (CC 50) - Replace Spellcasting with bonus feats.
-- Distracting Attack (PBH 2 55) - Hit with attack, opponent considered flanked. Lose Animal companion.
-- Good BAB, Good Fort + Ref
-- Fangshields Racial Substitution
-- Nemesis - Feat that lets you know who’s a spellcaster.

Martial Monk 2
-- Improved Unarmed Strike
-- 2 Bonus Feats
-- Evasion

Totemist 2
-- Ability to Bind Totems

Binder 1
-- Heal Ability Damage

Drow Fighter 1
-- +2 initiative and Dex to Damage vs. Flat footed.

Forsaker 3
--Constitution to AC
-- +3 divided among stats
-- SR +13
-- Natural Weapons function as +1; Weapons treated as natural
-- Good BAB, Good Fort + Will

Fist of the Forest 1
-- Constitution to AC
-- Good BAB, Good Fort and Ref
-- Fast Movement

City Brawler Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1
-- Pounce
-- Improved Unarmed Strike
-- Good BAB, Good Fort
-- Extra Attack

Hexblade 3
-- Charisma Bonus to Saves vs. Spells
-- Mettle

Golden Lion Paladin 2
-- Cha to Saves
-- Detect Magic at Will

Anointed Knight 1
-- 1/day 3 extra attacks.

Feats:
Mage Slayer line
--Ignore Magical Concealment

Witch Hunter 5
-- Momentary Disjunction
-- Mettle
-- Req: Know (Religion) 4, Sense Motive 4

Swordsage 1
-- Taken at level 9, provides +2d6 Sneak Attack

Avenger
-- Provides +1d6 Sneak Attack


Salvaged the list from an old brainstorming doc, so sources aren't listed, but google can help you there.

[heavyfuel]

They're great if you only have 2 players. 3 players is still OK. 4 gestalt PCs and the party will only ever be threatened by epic fights and combat will take forever

Disclaimer: I already dislike having more than 3 players in my games, so having 4 and gestalt is a nightmare

[FaerieGodfather]

They're great if you only have 2 players. 3 players is still OK. 4 gestalt PCs and the party will only ever be threatened by epic fights and combat will take forever

Disclaimer: I already dislike having more than 3 players in my games, so having 4 and gestalt is a nightmare

My sweet spot is six players, and I really dislike running fewer. I have not run a non-Gestalt D&D/PF game since I bought Unearthed Arcana.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Thanks for all the input guys! I'm definitely wanting to run a gestalt campaign very soon; I didnt think they would be all that much stronger, but more versatile definitely.

[Zancloufer]

I've run a few Gestalt games and generally PC are not more powerful. Yes they can do more things and they generally have more durability and sustain but they won't actually peak higher. Something that can challenge a full party of non-gestalt characters (without abusing a hole in their capabilities) will still challenge a Gestalts party fine. They will last longer and be harder to put off balance with a cheap shot but they don't spike higher 95% of the time.

[BlueWitch]

It's the ONLY way to play!

Once you play Gestalt, playing normal will be boring af!

Gestalt is like drugs! The withdrawal is AGONIZING! xD

Tristalt is like Meth. Too much and too far.

[Twogunkid]

It's the ONLY way to play!

Tristalt is like Meth. Too much and too far.

You want to add to the chaos, everyone is a Dvati Tristalt.

[MisterKaws]

You want to add to the chaos, everyone is a Dvati Tristalt.

With free Leadership at level 1.

[skunk3]

I'll just echo what others have said already -

Gestalt games are a lot of fun and it gives players the opportunity to make really interesting and flavorful characters. However, it can also lead to insanely powerful PCs, especially if the player(s) in question are setting out to do just that and they know the material inside and out. It can make some PCs vastly more 'powerful' than others and lead to a hogging of the spotlight. If I were you I'd make it explicitly clear that you'd prefer to keep one side of the gestalt at X tier and the other side at X(-1, -2?) tier and also they should run any LA stuff and prestige classes by you first for approval so you know what they're making. Also, make sure that people aren't taking levels in more than one PrC at a time and I'd also rule that if you take levels in a PrC you gotta finish the PrC… meaning no 'dipping' of prestige classes, otherwise builds get super complicated and OP.

In short, gestalt games are a blast but if your players have a decent level of system mastery they can easily come up with characters that are ridiculous.