Is Belkar really low on Int and Wis... or he underestimates himself?

[Conradine]

I was re-reading this strip.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html

Excellent tactics, tricks, ambushes, adaptation to an environment he didn't know in advance, mental tricks, psychological warfare...

and that self control and smooth talking.


So, I have a theory:

mabye Belkar just choose to act foolishly most of the time, but he's no fool.
Mabye if and when he want to, he can muster a good brain.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He probably has a decent-ish INT, but he fails Will saves and WIS-based skill checks too often to not suck there.

[RatElemental]

He probably has a decent-ish INT, but he fails Will saves and WIS-based skill checks too often to not suck there.

The fact that he's incapable of spellcasting means he's got 10 wisdom at most.

[Fyraltari]

I think his low Int manifests as a lack of focus. If he tries to think about something long enough to actually come up with something clever, he'll get bored halfway through and will do something stupid. Unless he is motivated enough, like when fighting Miko.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Determination and will are tied to Wisdom, not Intelligence.

[Reathin]

The fact that he's incapable of spellcasting means he's got 10 wisdom at most.

In addition, we know that way back when Belkar and Haley were out retrieving Roy's body, Belkar made mention to the fact that he's got an ability penalty in his Profession score, which is keyed off Wisdom, so he's at best 9.

[Darth Paul]

The "smooth talking" mentioned above would be Charisma based, not INT or WIS, so it doesn't really provide a clue either way. He clearly has a fair charisma based on the reactions of several female characters, while being a jerk to others (and a jerk to males generally). Maybe he has the "All Women Want Bad Boys" trope going for him when he wants to invoke it?

(Although the Giant doesn't write things because of tropes, and has been quoted as such, he's clearly aware of the principle as anybody would be.)

[HorizonWalker]

Belkar's a Ranger. He's not a very good Ranger, but he is still, fundamentally, a Ranger. And Rangers are, among other things, hunters. And, well, when a hunter wants to bag an animal too dangerous to just run up and shoot with a bow, they set a few traps with lures and calls, and they wait.

And, well. That's what Belkar did there. Roy can make jokes all he wants about how Belkar only started acting like a Ranger once he met dinosaurs, but Belkar's been doing it the whole time.

[Lombard]

I was re-reading this strip.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html

Excellent tactics, tricks, ambushes, adaptation to an environment he didn't know in advance, mental tricks, psychological warfare...

and that self control and smooth talking.


So, I have a theory:

mabye Belkar just choose to act foolishly most of the time, but he's no fool.
Mabye if and when he want to, he can muster a good brain.

My own theory is that Miko had some kind of distortion field around her that caused a lot of especially "shrug your shoulders and call it plot" things to happen.

[Worldsong]

My own theory is that Miko had some kind of distortion field around her that caused a lot of especially "shrug your shoulders and call it plot" things to happen.

But don't you see? Blaming everything on Miko is evil

[Honest Tiefling]

Belkar's a Ranger. He's not a very good Ranger, but he is still, fundamentally, a Ranger.

A ranger who can't track, cast spells, and mutliclassed into Barbarian. I'm not sure I would consider him to be a Ranger Extraordinaire...

[Worldsong]

A ranger who can't track, cast spells, and mutliclassed into Barbarian. I'm not sure I would consider him to be a Ranger Extraordinaire...
I believe the term is Sexy Shoeless God of War.

[woweedd]

In terms of Wisdom, Ha-Ha...No. Dude has terminally-low Wisdom. Not once in his life has he demonstrated willpower, common sense, perception, or intuition. Intelligence, sure. He's actually a lot like Xykon, who I also believe to be a High-Int, Low Wis character. He can be deviously cunning when he wants to be, and improvise like a master, but, when it comes to forethought, weighing his options and planning ahead...Yeah, no. He also has below-average Charisma, in all likelihood, given, ya know, being...him. Sure, some people go for him, but, strictly in-universe, he's rude, boorish, and un-empathic, all of which suggest low Charisma.

[HorizonWalker]

A ranger who can't track, cast spells, and mutliclassed into Barbarian. I'm not sure I would consider him to be a Ranger Extraordinaire...

Like I said: he's not a very good Ranger. But he is still a Ranger; he dual-wields melee weapons, he has an animal companion, and he has favored enemies. And, as shown in the comic, he understands the principles of hunting.

[MultitudeMan]

The Class and Level Geekery thread (one of my favourite online discussions EVER!) has Belkar as Wisdom 8-9, due to both the ability score penalty for his Profession: Gourmet Chef, and the scroll he cast on Elan in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html , though I think that actually pins him down to Wisdom of exactly 9, YMMV. This would accord nicely with his frequent failed Will saves, and his low impulse control.

It has his Charisma as less than 10, due to V's comment in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html , which clearly implies that the party members with positive Charisma modifiers are elsewhere, though I suppose you could stretch this to saying his Charisma is less than 12. This would accord nicely with so many people finding him obnoxious!

Apparently, there's evidence in On the Origin of PCs that his Intellligence is less than 10 as well, but I don't have that book yet, so can't confirm details. He may be pretty low on skill points to have never put one in Survival, or just pretty dumb to never have considered it would be useful to him as a Ranger.

I like HorizonWalker point that Belkar's 14 or so Ranger levels have shaped his outlook, so it wouldn't require high mental abilities for him to do Ranger-y things like ambushes, just as even a low Strength character can fight acceptably with enough BAB.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Where does it imply Belkar's low INT?

[woweedd]

The Class and Level Geekery thread (one of my favourite online discussions EVER!) has Belkar as Wisdom 8-9, due to both the ability score penalty for his Profession: Gourmet Chef, and the scroll he cast on Elan in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html , though I think that actually pins him down to Wisdom of exactly 9, YMMV. This would accord nicely with his frequent failed Will saves, and his low impulse control.

It has his Charisma as less than 10, due to V's comment in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html , which clearly implies that the party members with positive Charisma modifiers are elsewhere, though I suppose you could stretch this to saying his Charisma is less than 12. This would accord nicely with so many people finding him obnoxious!

Apparently, there's evidence in On the Origin of PCs that his Intellligence is less than 10 as well, but I don't have that book yet, so can't confirm details. He may be pretty low on skill points to have never put one in Survival, or just pretty dumb to never have considered it would be useful to him as a Ranger.

I like HorizonWalker point that Belkar's 14 or so Ranger levels have shaped his outlook, so it wouldn't require high mental abilities for him to do Ranger-y things like ambushes, just as even a low Strength character can fight acceptably with enough BAB.
Casting the spells he did, and subtracting Owl's Wisdom, would place his Wisdom at exactly 9, but i'd sooner buy that Rich fudged the rules a little for the sake of a joke then believe that BELKAR has a Wisdom score only one point below average. Also, while I get Belkar having low Charisma, he seems to have above-average INT to me: As the OP mentions, he can be shockingly effective, when he bothers to plan ahead. Which isn't often, see low Wisdom.

[factotum]

Where does it imply Belkar's low INT?

V certainly thought Belkar was a bit dim for going to the lengths he did to try and get Miko to kill him, and thus Fall, without first checking that the Order had the resources available to resurrect him if he succeeded.

[woweedd]

V certainly thought Belkar was a bit dim for going to the lengths he did to try and get Miko to kill him, and thus Fall, without first checking that the Order had the resources available to resurrect him if he succeeded.
True, but a lack of forethought like that seems like more like low Wisdom then low Intelligence: Intelligence is used to learn things, problem-solve and follow complex situations, but Wisdom governs forethought, patience, and decision-making. At least, to me. Belkar can solve problems and make rather good strategies, but he's terminally incapable of planning ahead or weighing his options. Seems pretty textbook to me.

[georgie_leech]

True, but a lack of forethought like that seems like more like low Wisdom then low Intelligence: Intelligence is used to learn things, problem-solve and follow complex situations, but Wisdom governs forethought, patience, and decision-making. At least, to me. Belkar can solve problems and make rather good strategies, but he's terminally incapable of planning ahead or weighing his options. Seems pretty textbook to me.

INT affects the cleverness of a plan; WIS affects how practical an idea it is. See also: Nale's convoluted messes

[woweedd]

INT affects the cleverness of a plan; WIS affects how practical an idea it is. See also: Nale's convoluted messes
Yep. I'd use Nale as a classic example of a high-INT, low-WIS character. Another way to think about it is that a High-WIS, Low-INT character would be incapable of coming up with a plan themselves...But, if you gave them a pre-existing plan, they'd be able to spot flaws in it that someone like Nale wouldn't.

[Themrys]

The "smooth talking" mentioned above would be Charisma based, not INT or WIS, so it doesn't really provide a clue either way. He clearly has a fair charisma based on the reactions of several female characters, while being a jerk to others (and a jerk to males generally). Maybe he has the "All Women Want Bad Boys" trope going for him when he wants to invoke it?

(Although the Giant doesn't write things because of tropes, and has been quoted as such, he's clearly aware of the principle as anybody would be.)

Either it's that trope or willing women just appear because he is the kind of man who'd sleep around with women he's just met, and the Giant wants to show that his personality is like this. Not saying it is completely unrealistic (I have met men in real life who had the reputation of being with a different woman every night, who had neither wisdom nor charisma and rather unappealing personalities), but I rather doubt the average NPC perceives him as more attractive than any other member of the party.

Vaarsuvius seems to never be hit on (I don't count Belkar's sexual assault as such), despite being an androgynous looking elf, and, as such, pretty much guaranteed to be extremely beautiful, and while V's personality leaves something to be desired, it is much more tolerable than Belkar's. Now, perhaps V just looks too aloof and unapproachable, but (since people like Belkar exist who don't care if someone doesn't seem interested) I would rather assume it is because V's personality. V is first happily married and then unhappily divorced and would not be interested in sleeping around, therefore attempts to flirt with V are unimportant to the plot (not that V would notice them) and thus we are not shown them.



Belkar is certainly low on Wis.

However, the mindflayer episode indicated that he's intelligent enough to be interesting. (Though he was portrayed as a rather low-caloric food if memory serves, so he's less intelligent than Roy and Vaarsuvius and probably Haley.)

[factotum]

However, the mindflayer episode indicated that he's intelligent enough to be interesting. (Though he was portrayed as a rather low-caloric food if memory serves, so he's less intelligent than Roy and Vaarsuvius and probably Haley.)

He was shown as being some sort of spicy taco, and the Mind Flayer rejected him because he'd get "heartburn", not because the meal wasn't substantial enough. Also, mind flayers take *all* the mental stats into account, which is why he went for the high-Int high-Wis Roy rather than the super-high-Int V.

[Peelee]

Vaarsuvius seems to never be hit on (I don't count Belkar's sexual assault as such), despite being an androgynous looking elf, and, as such, pretty much guaranteed to be extremely beautiful

https://resizing.flixster.com/bdaJIJ8dwcBAxCmstaJ2d9RpkZE=/300x300/v1.bjs2OTM1MDA7ajsxODA5ODsxMjAwOzE4MDg7MTgwOA

[Resileaf]

Belkar doesn't strike me as being stupid, and as Roy said to the archon, he's smart in his own brain-damaged way to beat any defense in his way, but he lacks the drive and will to use that intelligence for any long-term plan. Furthermore, should there not be an authority figure around to keep him in check, his impulsiveness will cause him to act on any dumb idea he gets with no thought of consequences (Like burning the bandit camp or killing the Oracle).

[Kelenius]

People swoon over and fall in love with known serial killers IRL, you know.

[Kish]

Count me on the side of "it's news to me that anyone thinks it's terribly likely, much less guaranteed, that Vaarsuvius is particularly attractive."

[Vinyadan]

:vaarsuvius: But my charisma score is-- :smallfrown:
:haley: --not my problem. Go! :smallmad:

[woweedd]

Count me on the side of "it's news to me that anyone thinks it's terribly likely, much less guaranteed, that Vaarsuvius is particularly attractive."
Elven stereotypes, I think. Feh.

[Doug Lampert]

I like HorizonWalker point that Belkar's 14 or so Ranger levels have shaped his outlook, so it wouldn't require high mental abilities for him to do Ranger-y things like ambushes, just as even a low Strength character can fight acceptably with enough BAB.

My general comment on claims that using "tactics" means someone is intelligent, is that real life wolves show vastly better group coordination and tactics than most D&D PCs.

They'll coordinate with one or more distracting while others attack from behind, they'll work together over long distances to run a prey animal into an ambush with some chasing and others ambushing, they're relay to run prey to exhaustion, they'll surrender, they'll trip, they'll maneuver for flanks and rear while working as a coordinated group.

That's all Int 2 level tactics. If your character has Int 3, he's smarter than that, and can do better than that.

[CriticalFailure]

I don’t get the impression either Belgae or Xykon are high int relatively speaking. Belkar strikes me as average int (0 modifier probably 10). Cylinder has gained int due to probably being venerable and becoming a lich. When he was younger I’d guess he had a negative int modifier, and I believe the scenes of teenage and young adult Xykon in Start of Darkness support that.

[Peelee]

I don’t get the impression either Belgae or Xykon are high int relatively speaking. Belkar strikes me as average int (0 modifier probably 10). Cylinder has gained int due to probably being venerable and becoming a lich. When he was younger I’d guess he had a negative int modifier, and I believe the scenes of teenage and young adult Xykon in Start of Darkness support that.

Belgae and Cylinder are my two favorite characters.:smalltongue:

[woweedd]

My general comment on claims that using "tactics" means someone is intelligent, is that real life wolves show vastly better group coordination and tactics than most D&D PCs.

They'll coordinate with one or more distracting while others attack from behind, they'll work together over long distances to run a prey animal into an ambush with some chasing and others ambushing, they're relay to run prey to exhaustion, they'll surrender, they'll trip, they'll maneuver for flanks and rear while working as a coordinated group.

That's all Int 2 level tactics. If your character has Int 3, he's smarter than that, and can do better than that.

Wolves also have considerably more Wisdom then Belkar, a feat they share with humans, sheep, most varieties of moss, and some rocks.

[Darth Paul]

Vaarsuvius seems to never be hit on (I don't count Belkar's sexual assault as such), despite being an androgynous looking elf, and, as such, pretty much guaranteed to be extremely beautiful...

I never found Boy George or Michael Jackson particularly beautiful, although both were androgynous enough.

And I've just mentally cast a perfect actor for V in the event of a live adaptation.... https://i.ytimg.com/vi/c9MdW8RISCI/hqdefault.jpg

[Squire Doodad]

wolves also have considerably more wisdom then belkar, a feat they share with humans, sheep, most varieties of moss, and some rocks.

"IOSO THE ERODED would like to speak on this matter. IOSO THE ERODED feels that while many rocks are in fact unintelligent and effectively nonsentient, there are those such as IOSO THE ERODED which are remarkably wise and who possess a solid cunning. IOSO THE ERODED, for one, enjoys a pleasant day pondering the meaning of existence in the humble confines of a pleasant cavern."

[zimmerwald1915]

Elven stereotypes, I think. Feh.
To be fair, the character doesn't exactly buck, or go beyond, elven stereotypes.

[Squire Doodad]

To be fair, the character doesn't exactly buck, or go beyond, elven stereotypes.

Then they got the highest kill/deaths score in the entire world's history.

[MultitudeMan]

My general comment on claims that using "tactics" means someone is intelligent, is that real life wolves show vastly better group coordination and tactics than most D&D PCs.

They'll coordinate with one or more distracting while others attack from behind, they'll work together over long distances to run a prey animal into an ambush with some chasing and others ambushing, they're relay to run prey to exhaustion, they'll surrender, they'll trip, they'll maneuver for flanks and rear while working as a coordinated group.

That's all Int 2 level tactics. If your character has Int 3, he's smarter than that, and can do better than that.

This is an excellent point! Now, without breaking forum protocol in any way, can anyone reading who owns OOPC confirm that it mentions something directly related to Belkar's Int score?

[zimmerwald1915]

Then they got the highest kill/deaths score in the entire world's history.
This is your daily reminder that being Just the Worst is a stereotypical elven trait.

[woweedd]

"IOSO THE ERODED would like to speak on this matter. IOSO THE ERODED feels that while many rocks are in fact unintelligent and effectively nonsentient, there are those such as IOSO THE ERODED which are remarkably wise and who possess a solid cunning. IOSO THE ERODED, for one, enjoys a pleasant day pondering the meaning of existence in the humble confines of a pleasant cavern."
I said SOME rocks are smart...

This is your daily reminder that being Just the Worst is a stereotypical elven trait.
Is it time for that thing where you express genocidal racism towards Elves on the basis of V's actions, and fail to see the irony?

[HorizonWalker]

Is it time for that thing where you express genocidal racism towards Elves on the basis of V's actions, and fail to see the irony?

To be fair to Zim(disclaimer: I don't share Zim's distaste for V), "Stereotypical elves in fantasy typically have this negative trait" is very, very different from "I hate all elves in fantasy and entertain fantasies of killing them all."

[Hardcore]

Belkars wisdom and charisma scores are decent. It is just that there are modifiers to all test based on that because of his sociopathy and possible other mental problems.

[noob]

Belkars wisdom and charisma scores are decent. It is just that there are modifiers to all test based on that because of his sociopathy and possible other mental problems.

at some point Belkar can not read a healing scroll and V cast owl wisdom on Belkar which then afterwards becomes a nicer person and can read the healing scroll.(that is until owl wisdom is dispelled)

[woweedd]

To be fair to Zim(disclaimer: I don't share Zim's distaste for V), "Stereotypical elves in fantasy typically have this negative trait" is very, very different from "I hate all elves in fantasy and entertain fantasies of killing them all."
I've talked to Zim before: My charity towards them was long-since exhausted.

[Wizard_Lizard]

This is your daily reminder that being Just the Worst is a stereotypical elven trait.

Legolas defies that. Legolas is just the best.
(Although I still like Elrond the most.)

[Jannoire]

Legolas defies that. Legolas is just the best.
(Although I still like Elrond the most.)

Despite the fact that he is literally named Greenleave Greenleave

[Wizard_Lizard]

Despite the fact that he is literally named Greenleave Greenleave

*Greenleaf
Also Elrond is the best, High elf squad!

[Worldsong]

Legolas defies that. Legolas is just the best.
(Although I still like Elrond the most.)

Kind of got tired of Legolas when it felt like he was shoehorned into The Hobbit just so he could have some more of those over the top fight scenes.

That freaking giant bat scene for example.

[Peelee]

Kind of got tired of Legolas when it felt like he was shoehorned into The Hobbit just so he could have some more of those over the top fight scenes.

That freaking giant bat scene for example.

"Felt like"?:smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

Despite the fact that he is literally named Greenleave Greenleave

He is not. Elves don’t use family surnames in this universe. When people introduce him as ‘Legolas Greenleaf’ they are just translating his name just like with ‘Cirdan Shipwright’, ‘Celeborn Sivertree’ or ‘Nom the Wise/Felagund Cave-Hewer’.

[CriticalFailure]

I feel like the elvish stereotype is "snobbish and mildly xenophobic good," not "impulsively genocidal neutral."

[Rogar Demonblud]

Never read the Complete Book of the Master Race then? I have, and I've dealt with the elf fanbois, and I'm with Zim that elves in general are THE WORST.

[Emanick]

Never read the Complete Book of the Master Race then? I have, and I've dealt with the elf fanbois, and I'm with Zim that elves in general are THE WORST.

I prefer dwarves to elves, but I feel like that's probably a bit too niche to really affect the stereotype. "Elves are the worst" might not be wrong, but it's more of an opinion than it is the Standard Accepted Stereotype.

[Kish]

I didn't know they made a Complete Book of Humans.

...I think there's probably a reason they didn't. Can't put my finger on it. Even though I'm certain it's entirely related to why I roll my eyes at anyone talking about elven arrogance in D&D*.

I do share Zimmer's distaste for Vaarsuvius, and I totally agree with woweedd here.

I ride the bus Zimmer is driving from the stop "Vaarsuvius committed mass murder based on sadism and justified by racism" to the stop "Vaarsuvius is vile." Then I jump off before the bus can leave for "and so are elves" or "and so are wizards."

*For the benefit of anyone who's having trouble with what's behind the sarcasm here: "We are the default and all others are variants of us" is arrogance far beyond anything ever imparted to D&D elves...even when the author was actively trying.

[Darth Paul]

"Felt like"?:smallamused:

"Was egregiously"

Along with Kate from LOST, for some friggin reason... in the romantic tumor subplot from Hell. :smallconfused:

[woweedd]

I didn't know they made a Complete Book of Humans.

...I think there's probably a reason they didn't. Can't put my finger on it. Even though I'm certain it's entirely related to why I roll my eyes at anyone talking about elven arrogance in D&D*.

I do share Zimmer's distaste for Vaarsuvius, and I totally agree with woweedd here.

I ride the bus Zimmer is driving from the stop "Vaarsuvius committed mass murder based on sadism and justified by racism" to the stop "Vaarsuvius is vile." Then I jump off before the bus can leave for "and so are elves" or "and so are wizards."

*For the benefit of anyone who's having trouble with what's behind the sarcasm here: "We are the default and all others are variants of us" is arrogance far beyond anything ever imparted to D&D elves...even when the author was actively trying.

See, I agree with the first premise, a tentative disagreement with the second, and jump off way before the third stop. I'm not a member of the V Hatedom, but I have my sympathies. Also, in fairness to humans, making a lifeform that thinks COMPLETELY differently from humans is pretty damn hard: Hell, it's hard to get into the heads of others of our OWN species lots of the time: Just look at any attempt to write a smart person by a not-smart person, if you don't catch me. That said, yeah, I do recognize that the only thing differentiating "i'm better because i'm human" from "i'm better because i'm Christian" or "i'm better because i'm German" is the lack of other self-aware beings for it to be bigoted towards.

[Kish]

To be clear, I'm not talking about the real world, but about D&D. Where there are numerous sapient species, and "elves think they're superior" is often written in sourcebooks, but "humans know they're superior and this is why they're right" is written into the very bedrock of the game.

[woweedd]

To be clear, I'm not talking about the real world, but about D&D. Where there are numerous sapient species, and "elves think they're superior" is often written in sourcebooks, but "humans know they're superior and this is why they're right" is written into the very bedrock of the game.
Again, I think that's just our own bias given the only viewpoint we have to work from.

[zimmerwald1915]

Again, I think that's just our own bias given the only viewpoint we have to work from.
So you in fact share Kish's position, and just think the arrogant presumption is excusable because of mitigating factors?

[woweedd]

So you in fact share Kish's position, and just think the arrogant presumption is excusable because of mitigating factors?
...Kinda? I'm not sure what you mean.

[Vinyadan]

I didn't know they made a Complete Book of Humans.

There's Races of Destiny, which is quite close in concept. All the humans and half-humans, and a few ex-humans and related creatures.

[Fyraltari]

I didn't know they made a Complete Book of Humans.

I am told the rulebook for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has as its section on humans "You should already be familiar with these."

I get your point though. What was it that Roy called V and Durkon back in the days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html)? "Demihumans."

[Darth Paul]

So you in fact share Kish's position, and just think the arrogant presumption is excusable because of mitigating factors?

I'm not sure it's "arrogant presumption" as such where humans are concerned.

It's hard to write humans as less intelligent, strong, charismatic, whatever, than other species, when your target audience is, after all, humans. It's easier to make humans the baseline and then give bonuses or penalties to everyone else. So, humans come out as the jack (or jills) of all trades, just because they don't have to be penalized in any areas for the sake of game balance. All the rest have to take some sort of penalties or else they'd run rampant one way or the other.

Now, when V asks (in OOPCs) :vaarsuvius: "What exactly would the problem with that be?" they speak for all those players who think humans trample over all the other races when those races should, given the way the lore is written, be ruling the world by now.

[Kelenius]

I always thought the human shtick in 3.5 was "versatile", not "average".

[HorizonWalker]

If I were writing D&D's rules, I'd replace the Human's Bonus Feat with a +2 Constitution bonus, and their extra skill point per level with something that makes them heal faster, to reflect the fact that real-life humans are crazy durable and fast-healing, compared to every other animal bigger than a loaf of bread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If I were writing D&D's rules, I'd replace the Human's Bonus Feat with a +2 Constitution bonus, and their extra skill point per level with something that makes them heal faster, to reflect the fact that real-life humans are crazy durable and fast-healing, compared to every other animal bigger than a loaf of bread.

That's a long winded way of calling every human a troll.

:smalltongue:

Grey Wolf

[Kelenius]

Bonus to throwing and long-distance running.

[pearl jam]

The Hobbit movies had any number of issues, but having Legolas appear in them is one of the more defensible ones, in my opinion, given that it he probably was present and involved in some of the events of that story, just off camera, so to speak, in the original text.

[Peelee]

The Hobbit movies had any number of issues, but having Legolas appear in them is one of the more defensible ones, in my opinion, given that it he probably was present and involved in some of the events of that story, just off camera, so to speak, in the original text.

To be fair here, the entire battle of the five armies was involved in the events of that story but just off-camera, so to speak, and it gut an entire movie dedicated to it.

[Worldsong]

Oh boy is it time to talk about humans being treated as the baseline again?

Wait for me guys!

So yeah, I'm in agreement that it's a bit silly to complain about elves being arrogant when apparently we're incapable of writing humans as being as distinctly unique as all the other intelligent creatures wandering around in fantasy. In DnD and pretty much every other game I've come across where you could choose a race what do humans get? "Humans are versatile and vary wildly from group to group" and what comes down to jack-of-all-trades. Leaving aside the fact that this means we're essentially stereotyping all the other races by not giving them the same spread even when clearly we're capable of imagining that a race might have more than one culture this means that apparently we have trouble even imagining that humans possess traits which could be considered unusual. Immense stamina? Ridiculous good eyesight? Throwing ability? Nope, bugger all that, we're humans so apparently writing down humans as being as defined as other races is outside of reasonable expectations.

Dear lord I detest how much humans are the default. It's so bad that whenever I'm in control of a setting I pretty much ban humans so I don't have to deal with the issue and I've been trying to come up with an alternative for the term humanoid for years because the term annoys me to hell and back.

Elves are arrogant? Well sure but so are we but when it's the elves somehow it's intolerable.

[Fyraltari]

That's a long winded way of calling every human a troll.

:smalltongue:

Grey Wolf
I would disagree that, but then I remembered the internet. :smallfrown:

[factotum]

The Hobbit movies had any number of issues, but having Legolas appear in them is one of the more defensible ones, in my opinion, given that it he probably was present and involved in some of the events of that story, just off camera, so to speak, in the original text.

Him being present is defensible. Him having exactly the same character arc (going from dwarves = bad to dwarves = good) in The Hobbit as he did in LOTR was a bit silly, though...guess something really bad happened in the 60 years between the stories to make him distrust dwarves again.

[woweedd]

Oh boy is it time to talk about humans being treated as the baseline again?

Wait for me guys!

So yeah, I'm in agreement that it's a bit silly to complain about elves being arrogant when apparently we're incapable of writing humans as being as distinctly unique as all the other intelligent creatures wandering around in fantasy. In DnD and pretty much every other game I've come across where you could choose a race what do humans get? "Humans are versatile and vary wildly from group to group" and what comes down to jack-of-all-trades. Leaving aside the fact that this means we're essentially stereotyping all the other races by not giving them the same spread even when clearly we're capable of imagining that a race might have more than one culture this means that apparently we have trouble even imagining that humans possess traits which could be considered unusual. Immense stamina? Ridiculous good eyesight? Throwing ability? Nope, bugger all that, we're humans so apparently writing down humans as being as defined as other races is outside of reasonable expectations.

Dear lord I detest how much humans are the default. It's so bad that whenever I'm in control of a setting I pretty much ban humans so I don't have to deal with the issue and I've been trying to come up with an alternative for the term humanoid for years because the term annoys me to hell and back.

Elves are arrogant? Well sure but so are we but when it's the elves somehow it's intolerable.
Ironically, i'd argue this hampers humans. I know lots of players, mostly on the more roleplay-heavy end of the spectrum, who refuse to play humans specifically BECAUSE they're seen as boring and overplayed. Human Fighter is, statistically, the basic D&D character, which gives lots of hipster types reasons to avoid it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The best thing I ever saw describing humans in the game is that they were best at building a variety of styles of government that were stable enough to keep stumbling on, but nobody could figure out how, because as soon as we got theoretical about it they fell apart. The Centipede's Legs problem, in short.

Humans as some sort of idiot savant was a refreshingly new take. Heck, probably still is.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Ironically, i'd argue this hampers humans. I know lots of players, mostly on the more roleplay-heavy end of the spectrum, who refuse to play humans specifically BECAUSE they're seen as boring and overplayed. Human Fighter is, statistically, the basic D&D character, which gives lots of hipster types reasons to avoid it.

I never play humans for this reason.
also I find it so hard to relate to them. I mean, how am I meant to know what a human would do in this situation?

[brian 333]

What appears to be overlooked in this discussion is that forty years ago nobody knew how to roleplay anything but a human. The rules were written with this in mind.

Sure, elves are humans with a few exaggerated traits, but that made them accessible to players who only knew Legolas. In 1979 we had very few other examples.

Now fantasy is a respectable genra, with lots of upright, bipedal species having a multitude of cultures, so mix and match your favorites and enjoy.

But ease off on the criticism of legacy character descriptions. Back in the day that was all we had to go by.

[Kelenius]

What appears to be overlooked in this discussion is that forty years ago nobody knew how to roleplay anything but a human. The rules were written with this in mind.

Sure, elves are humans with a few exaggerated traits, but that made them accessible to players who only knew Legolas. In 1979 we had very few other examples.

Now fantasy is a respectable genra, with lots of upright, bipedal species having a multitude of cultures, so mix and match your favorites and enjoy.

But ease off on the criticism of legacy character descriptions. Back in the day that was all we had to go by.

In the first editions of D&D, humans were the strongest race because Gygax thought that if they weren't, nobody would play them, and... that would be bad I guess.

[Fyraltari]

In the first editions of D&D, humans were the strongest race because Gygax thought that if they weren't, nobody would play them, and... that would be bad I guess.

I mean if you have a race nobody wants to play in your rulebook then you are just wasting a whole section of your rulebook.

[woweedd]

I mean if you have a race nobody wants to play in your rulebook then you are just wasting a whole section of your rulebook.
That's an argument for humans being useful, but not really an argument for them being THE BEST. The problem is, design-wise, humans are supposed to be The Mario, the balanced all-rounders, the Bard of races: Good at just about everything, great at nothing. And Bards are a Tier 3, commonly considered among the most balanced classes, so clearly it is possible to balance such a niche. The problem is, instead of being a Jack-Of-All-Trades, Master Of None like the Bard, Humans end up as a Master Of All: Something like a "Tier 1" race if you will. Like the race version of a Wizard, they can do just about anything, and, often, do it better then the people who are supposed to specialize in that thing. They're OP, in other words.

[brian 333]

In the first editions of D&D, humans were the strongest race because Gygax thought that if they weren't, nobody would play them, and... that would be bad I guess.

Ah, the good old days when your race was your class unless you were human, and level 10 was all but unobtainable.

But this supports my point. All halflings were thieves because we only had Tolkien to go by. They carry Bilbo with them to this day. But as in Dragonlance, you are free to redefine them if you like.

[woweedd]

Ah, the good old days when your race was your class unless you were human, and level 10 was all but unobtainable.

But this supports my point. All halflings were thieves because we only had Tolkien to go by. They carry Bilbo with them to this day. But as in Dragonlance, you are free to redefine them if you like.
In fairness, while the races and most of the bestiary were Tolkien lifts, old-school D&D really bears far more remblance to swords-and-sorcery books, like the works of Micheal Morcock, Jack Vance, or, of course, Robert E. Howard. AD&D's progression from "dungeon delver to "leader of men" matches Conan's quite well.

[brian 333]

I dont disagree, but the average gamer of the 1970s was not so well read in the genera.

And we can thank Mr.Vance for the most hated and house-overuled feature of D and D: spell preparation.

[CriticalFailure]

Spell preparation gets house overruled? Isn't that ridiculously game breaking???

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes, which is yet another reason for the caster power creep. I've often wondered what a game would be like with true Vancian casting: very few spells known, and it takes up to half a day to prep one. But that one can wreck a small city by itself.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, which is yet another reason for the caster power creep. I've often wondered what a game would be like with true Vancian casting: very few spells known, and it takes up to half a day to prep one. But that one can wreck a small city by itself.

Sounds like the ultimate glass cannon.

[HorizonWalker]

Sounds like something you wouldn't let someone base their class around, because it's inappropriate for a dungeon crawl and would result in whoever's playing it being bored the whole time.

[Kish]

I mean if you have a race nobody wants to play in your rulebook then you are just wasting a whole section of your rulebook.
And yet Gygax's approach--level limits--ensured that everyone played humans if they expected the game to reach a certain level (making all the other races races no one wanted to play)...and no one did if they didn't.

[brian 333]

And yet Gygax's approach--level limits--ensured that everyone played humans if they expected the game to reach a certain level (making all the other races races no one wanted to play)...and no one did if they didn't.

My groups always had a variety of races. The multiclassing rules for AD&D made the demihumans the jacks of all trades and the single classed humans the specialists. Plus, the exp progression made getting levels beyond 10 very difficult. There was a sweet spot between levels 5-9 where most of our adventures took place.

[woweedd]

And yet Gygax's approach--level limits--ensured that everyone played humans if they expected the game to reach a certain level (making all the other races races no one wanted to play)...and no one did if they didn't.
In fairness, back then, races weren't separate from classes unless you were human. Which is more blatant anthropocentrism, but eh. While we're on the subject, i'd kinda like to see a game that flip the script: have "Fighter" and "Mage" as in-born species and "Dwarf" and "Elf" as professions. Amusingly, this would probably make "Human" the equivalent of "Commoner".:smallbiggrin:

[Lexible]

He probably has a decent-ish INT, but he fails Will saves and WIS-based skill checks too often to not suck there.

This.

Belkar is obviously low Wisdom (spells, consequences of his actions, etc.), and probably below average Charisma (excels at not being a leader, irritating and appalling others, etc.), but frequently is the first to bring insights to others 'attention. I think he's probably above average Intelligence.

[Doug Lampert]

If I were writing D&D's rules, I'd replace the Human's Bonus Feat with a +2 Constitution bonus, and their extra skill point per level with something that makes them heal faster, to reflect the fact that real-life humans are crazy durable and fast-healing, compared to every other animal bigger than a loaf of bread.


Bonus to throwing and long-distance running.

Yep, there are things that humans are plainly better at than other large animals, it's easy to make those the human bonuses.


Ah, the good old days when your race was your class unless you were human, and level 10 was all but unobtainable.

But this supports my point. All halflings were thieves because we only had Tolkien to go by. They carry Bilbo with them to this day. But as in Dragonlance, you are free to redefine them if you like.


In fairness, back then, races weren't separate from classes unless you were human. Which is more blatant anthropocentrism, but eh. While we're on the subject, i'd kinda like to see a game that flip the script: have "Fighter" and "Mage" as in-born species and "Dwarf" and "Elf" as professions. Amusingly, this would probably make "Human" the equivalent of "Commoner".:smallbiggrin:

Races were NOT classes in original D&D, you could have a class as a member of any playable race. There has ALWAYS been an edition in print that allowed a hobbit or halfling thief or rogue; or a dwarf fighter or fighting man; or an elf magic user or wizard since the day the original Greyhawk supplement came out in 1974 and introduced the thief as a class.

Just because Basic did it that way, does not mean that's how it's always been, the race as class thing was introduced in Basic years after the game was first produced.

[Jay R]

In fairness, back then, races weren't separate from classes unless you were human. Which is more blatant anthropocentrism, but eh. While we're on the subject, i'd kinda like to see a game that flip the script: have "Fighter" and "Mage" as in-born species and "Dwarf" and "Elf" as professions. Amusingly, this would probably make "Human" the equivalent of "Commoner".:smallbiggrin:

In fairness, originally races were separate from classes. In 1974, in original D&D, elves could be Fighting Men1 or Magic-Users. They could also be both, but only use one in a given game. Dwarves and Hobbits could only be Fighting Men. Only Men2 could choose any class - Fighting Men, Magic Users, or Clerics.

When the first supplement came out in 1975, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, and Half-Elves could also be Thieves, and some multi-class combinations.

The first race/class was an optional rule from The Dragon #3, which had a "Dwarves as Fighting Men" class. They could still be Thieves, and could now also be Clerics.

In 1977, when they split out into Basic D&D and Advanced D&D, they went in two different directions. In Basic D&D, Elves and Dwarves were race and class in one. But in Advanced D&D, each race (dwarves, elves, gnomes, half-elves, halflings3, and half-orcs) had a list of available classes.

So while Basic D&D had non-human races as classes, there was never a time when all D&D was played that way.

1Yup. That was the name of the class.
2Yes, that was the name of the race.
3By this time, the Tolkien estate had noticed them.

[KorvinStarmast]

My own theory is that Miko had some kind of distortion field around her that caused a lot of especially "shrug your shoulders and call it plot" things to happen. Miko hate is misplaced. She fulfilled her narrative role.
But don't you see? Blaming everything on Miko is evil Who blames everything on Miko?

I believe the term is Sexy Shoeless God of War. Your belief is born out by the in comic evidence.
Count me on the side of "it's news to me that anyone thinks it's terribly likely, much less guaranteed, that Vaarsuvius is particularly attractive." "Androgynous good looks" are, like any other class of good looks, matters of taste.
I've talked to Zim before: My charity towards them was long-since exhausted. Likewise, and I worry about a self inflicted wound. :smalleek:
To be clear, I'm not talking about the real world, but about D&D. Where there are numerous sapient species, and "elves think they're superior" is often written in source books, but "humans know they're superior and this is why they're right" is written into the very bedrock of the game. Uh, not quite the way you said it. Why you chose to write it that way says a lot about you.
In fairness, originally races were separate from classes. In 1974, in original D&D, elves could be Fighting Men1 or Magic-Users. They could also be both, but only use one in a given game. Dwarves and Hobbits could only be Fighting Men. Only Men2 could choose any class - Fighting Men, Magic Users, or Clerics.

When the first supplement came out in 1975, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, and Half-Elves could also be Thieves, and some multi-class combinations.

The first race/class was an optional rule from The Dragon #3, which had a "Dwarves as Fighting Men" class. They could still be Thieves, and could now also be Clerics.

In 1977, when they split out into Basic D&D and Advanced D&D, they went in two different directions. In Basic D&D, Elves and Dwarves were race and class in one. But in Advanced D&D, each race (dwarves, elves, gnomes, half-elves, halflings3, and half-orcs) had a list of available classes.

So while Basic D&D had non-human races as classes, there was never a time when all D&D was played that way.

1Yup. That was the name of the class.
2Yes, that was the name of the race.
3By this time, the Tolkien estate had noticed them.
Correct.

Some people in this thread need to go and actually read what EGG wrote about AD&D (1e) being based in a humanocentric world/reality.

Stop making stuff up about it, and go read it. You can agree, or disagree, on an esoteric level, but at least know what it is that you are talking about. A lot of you don't. And once you have read EGG's (awkward) prose on that topic, go and read JRR Tolkien's essay on Fairie Stories, and in particular the bit about the primary and secondary worlds. SF writers also have to wrestle with that. In order to invite the suspension of disbelief, the writer has to ground their work in enough of the familiar such that the unfamiliar, or the fantastic, or the techfictionsuperSFcool thing, can fit into the story.

If they don't do that, the story won't work.

Gibson's Neuromancer is a great illustration in how to do that well.

PS: A hint for all of you who have never read the AD&D 1e DMG. EGG recognized that the players are all human.