Werebear

[ByOdin'sBeard]

How do I go about making a werebear character? I've only ever created them if starting at level 3, or higher; is there a way to make a 1st Level werebear character without using the template class, or monster class? Like just use the lycanthrope template on a human, and not progress him until his LA is gone?

[Venger]

How do I go about making a werebear character? I've only ever created them if starting at level 3, or higher; is there a way to make a 1st Level werebear character without using the template class, or monster class? Like just use the lycanthrope template on a human, and not progress him until his LA is gone?

First of all, don't. They suck.

If you want to anyway because you're the dm or whatever, you cannot have a werebear (with class levels) at all before level 4 if you don't use savage progression/monster class.

level adjustment adds itself onto the character's normal level. if you have a human fighter 1, he's level 1. so far so good. if he is bitten by a werebear and turns, he is level 1 + LA 3. his effective character level (ECL) is 4. he's treated as a 4th level character for things like calculating how much xp he earns from killing monsters and determining what is an appropriate threat for him.

You can't have him in a situation where the other players are supposed to be level 1, even if he doesn't gain xp til everyone else is 4.

A way around this (kind of) is buyoff. you can do this with up to 3 levels of LA. You pay chunks of xp at certain points, and take off LA, until you're at 0, and treated like a normal character with no LA.

let me know if you have any further questions

[Mr Adventurer]

First of all, don't. They suck.

If you want to anyway because you're the dm or whatever, you cannot have a werebear (with class levels) at all before level 4 if you don't use savage progression/monster class.

level adjustment adds itself onto the character's normal level. if you have a human fighter 1, he's level 1. so far so good. if he is bitten by a werebear and turns, he is level 1 + LA 3. his effective character level (ECL) is 4. he's treated as a 4th level character for things like calculating how much xp he earns from killing monsters and determining what is an appropriate threat for him.

You can't have him in a situation where the other players are supposed to be level 1, even if he doesn't gain xp til everyone else is 4.

A way around this (kind of) is buyoff. you can do this with up to 3 levels of LA. You pay chunks of xp at certain points, and take off LA, until you're at 0, and treated like a normal character with no LA.

let me know if you have any further questions

You forgot the Animal hit dice too.

[Venger]

that's what I get for trying to simplify things and hone in on how la works.

in addition to what I detailed above, you get varying numbers of useless animal hd. in the case of werebear, you get 6 additional hd of animal, so if you were a 1st level fighter, you would be 1 lvl + 6 rhd + 3 la for an ecl of 10, with only 1 actual class level, but math would treat you like you were level 10.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

First of all, don't. They suck.

If you want to anyway because you're the dm or whatever, you cannot have a werebear (with class levels) at all before level 4 if you don't use savage progression/monster class.

level adjustment adds itself onto the character's normal level. if you have a human fighter 1, he's level 1. so far so good. if he is bitten by a werebear and turns, he is level 1 + LA 3. his effective character level (ECL) is 4. he's treated as a 4th level character for things like calculating how much xp he earns from killing monsters and determining what is an appropriate threat for him.

You can't have him in a situation where the other players are supposed to be level 1, even if he doesn't gain xp til everyone else is 4.

A way around this (kind of) is buyoff. you can do this with up to 3 levels of LA. You pay chunks of xp at certain points, and take off LA, until you're at 0, and treated like a normal character with no LA.

let me know if you have any further questions

Okay, that makes perfect sense (except for this: hit die gained by the animals dont account for experience needed to level up do they?). Now what if the character is a natural werebear? You need to either decide that he is way more powerful, and not gain XP for 3 levels, or start the party at a higher ECL. Obviously the 2nd one is the choice.

Also, is a character is bit, and contracts lycanthropy at Level 12, and receives the +2 LA, can they subtract they're total level, including existing hit die, feats and whatever they gained from them as LA buy-off?

Normally, you can subtract 1LA every time your level reaches 3* your LA. So +2 LA for an afflicted character would mean he could buy off levels at Level 6, and 9. But if he is already 12, would he have to wait until level 18?

[MisterKaws]

Okay, that makes perfect sense (except for this: hit die gained by the animals dont account for experience needed to level up do they?). Now what if the character is a natural werebear? You need to either decide that he is way more powerful, and not gain XP for 3 levels, or start the party at a higher ECL. Obviously the 2nd one is the choice.

Also, is a character is bit, and contracts lycanthropy at Level 12, and receives the +2 LA, can they subtract they're total level, including existing hit die, feats and whatever they gained from them as LA buy-off?

Normally, you can subtract 1LA every time your level reaches 3* your LA. So +2 LA for an afflicted character would mean he could buy off levels at Level 6, and 9. But if he is already 12, would he have to wait until level 18?

That's for the DM to decide.

However, usually, it's a pain in the butt to give a player Lycanthropy. The bear, for example, would make your level 12 character a level 18, even with buying all the LA off.

And considering the bear's strength modifier, that level 18 fighter is probably going to hit like a truck if the first 12 levels were properly given. However... you don't get to control the change at first, so this fighter is stuck at a situation where he's at the same time overwhelmingly stronger than the party, so he can't get much XP, and also just as strong as the party, so if he doesn't learn to control the change fast(and retrain to get the Control Shape skill ranks), he'll be quickly left behind by the party, which levels while he can't level because he's a level 18, so he'll end up as a level 12 fighter in a level 15-16 party.

So usually not that great.

I found a better solution is just giving the character a slotless item of 1/day Bite of the Werebear. If you do the math it's about 65000 gp. Maybe add Enlarge Person too, for the full bear experience.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

That's for the DM to decide.

However, usually, it's a pain in the butt to give a player Lycanthropy. The bear, for example, would make your level 12 character a level 18, even with buying all the LA off.

And considering the bear's strength modifier, that level 18 fighter is probably going to hit like a truck if the first 12 levels were properly given. However... you don't get to control the change at first, so this fighter is stuck at a situation where he's at the same time overwhelmingly stronger than the party, so he can't get much XP, and also just as strong as the party, so if he doesn't learn to control the change fast(and retrain to get the Control Shape skill ranks), he'll be quickly left behind by the party, which levels while he can't level because he's a level 18, so he'll end up as a level 12 fighter in a level 15-16 party.

So usually not that great.

I found a better solution is just giving the character a slotless item of 1/day Bite of the Werebear. If you do the math it's about 65000 gp. Maybe add Enlarge Person too, for the full bear experience.

Okay, but do RHD give you any BAB? Or if he is a natural werebear, with +3LA +6RHD, with 1 level in fighter, is this ****** stuck as a ECL 10, with 1 BAB

EDIT: I have been informed that RHD do in fact provide BAB, how much is still a mystery; is it 1 BAB/RHD or am I to assume that because the RHD is d8's, that BAB scales like a ranger?

[Venger]

Okay, that makes perfect sense (except for this: hit die gained by the animals dont account for experience needed to level up do they?).
What does this mean? Could you rephrase? I don't understand what you're asking


Now what if the character is a natural werebear? You need to either decide that he is way more powerful, and not gain XP for 3 levels, or start the party at a higher ECL. Obviously the 2nd one is the choice.
The first isn't an option if the character is a pc. pcs must all be the same level.


Also, is a character is bit, and contracts lycanthropy at Level 12, and receives the +2 LA, can they subtract they're total level, including existing hit die, feats and whatever they gained from them as LA buy-off?
werebear is 3. if he is bitten at 12, he becomes 12 + 3 la + 6 rhd, or an ecl 21 character.

what does that mean?

are you asking if you can count the rhd you gain from lycanthrope as levels for the purpose of buyoff, and buy off 2 of the levels right away ? the answer is no. buyoff ignores rhd. it is only concerned about level + la.


Normally, you can subtract 1LA every time your level reaches 3* your LA. So +2 LA for an afflicted character would mean he could buy off levels at Level 6, and 9. But if he is already 12, would he have to wait until level 18?
Those levels are the only points where you can do that, so you'd have to wait til the next milestone

EDIT: BA is not a mystery. it's provided for you under type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) Animals have d8 hd and 3/4 ba.

[MisterKaws]

Okay, but do RHD give you any BAB? Or if he is a natural werebear, with +3LA +6RHD, with 1 level in fighter, is this ****** stuck as a ECL 10, with 1 BAB

They do, 3/4 like a Cleric, so 4 BAB. means they have total +5 BAB, but do note that they also get a +16 to Strength. Let's say you're a Water Orc Werebear and you rolled 16 to your Strength dice. So your Str in hybrid form is 36 (16+4 from orc + 16 from bear). Your attack bonus, then, would be +17(+5 from BAB -1 size + 13 from Str), and that's not even taking in account weapons, buffs and feats. And your damage without any other bonuses would also be 2d6+19 with a Greatsword, which isn't too shabby.

All in all, you could probably get around +25 to your Attack Bonus and +30 to your Greatsword attack. Do note that you wouldn't have a second Greatsword attack, but you'd have a Bite and a Claw(taking your hand from a weapon is a free action) to compensate.

It's not the most optimal way ever to build a level 10 character, but it isn't THAT horrible, to be honest. The biggest complaint I get is that building a character that way makes it utterly useless outside of the hybrid form, and most people who build a werewolf want it to be as edgy as possible and only transform once they're half a step onto the grave. Because Druids and Wizards get to transform into a Ten-Headed Pyrohippopotamus, but gods forbid a Fighter turns into a Bear.

[Venger]

ur priest's monstrous handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) does a good job of answering basic questions on this and related topics.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

What does this mean? Could you rephrase? I don't understand what you're asking

Do RHD apply to my ECL when determining how much XP is needed to level up?

So, a werebear that is a level 1 fighter has +3 LA, +6 RHD, resulting in a ECL 10. Do I need to wait until experience points equal level 11 to level up? Or do RHD not count, and I would only require experience points equal to level 5?

EDIT: thank you for the link to the handbook!

[MisterKaws]

Do RHD apply to my ECL when determining how much XP is needed to level up?

So, a werebear that is a level 1 fighter has +3 LA, +6 RHD, resulting in a ECL 10. Do I need to wait until experience points equal level 11 to level up? Or do RHD not count, and I would only require experience points equal to level 5?

EDIT: thank you for the link to the handbook!

Yes, you calculate XP based on your ECL. Strangely, Urpriest's handbook doesn't cover this.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Yes, you calculate XP based on your ECL. Strangely, Urpriest's handbook doesn't cover this.

That is the only question it didnt answer Haha.

So overall, if this is a melee build, the werebear isn't bad, but as a ranged build (God knows why) he will be utter trash. In melee, he werebear has a +17 to hit at level 10 assuming he rolled an 18 strength score. Assuming an 18 for Dex, he has a plus +10... RIP ranger

[Venger]

Do RHD apply to my ECL when determining how much XP is needed to level up?

So, a werebear that is a level 1 fighter has +3 LA, +6 RHD, resulting in a ECL 10. Do I need to wait until experience points equal level 11 to level up? Or do RHD not count, and I would only require experience points equal to level 5?

EDIT: thank you for the link to the handbook!
Yes, you need to get enough xp to get to 11, because you are a lvl 10 character.


That is the only question it didnt answer Haha.

So overall, if this is a melee build, the werebear isn't bad, but as a ranged build (God knows why) he will be utter trash. In melee, he werebear has a +17 to hit at level 10 assuming he rolled an 18 strength score. Assuming an 18 for Dex, he has a plus +10... RIP ranger
I mean, its to-hit is decent, but you lack stuff like class features, and you're several hd short, which weakens you pretty severely, especially as a melee brute.

[Twogunkid]

Dragon 313 had a monster class for Werebears. It is 9 levels long and only has HD for 7 of them.

The wizards website had an article series called savage progressions which also had rules for playing a werebear (I believe theirs was 3-7 levels long)

Both are not high power, but if you are in a low power campaign it should not be a problem.