5e system in a no-magic setting, can it work?

[Crucius]

I've been debating if I should post this threat at all, since I had hoped to find the solutions myself, but since it's coming down to opinions, it might be worthwhile to ask you people!

So here's the deal: I like 5e, a lot. I like bounded accuracy and what it means for ease of play. It allows you to have fun and tell cool stories in a semi-casual way, since the rules are not overly convoluted or math heavy. What I don't like, is fantasy. It just doesn't interest me as much as other settings.

Therefore I set out to create a campaign/setting using 5e rules that is of the non-fantasy variety (let's say it's semi-modern. I'm not the first to do it and I won't be the last). Thing is, the more I fleshed out the world and decided on the themes of the stories, the more I realized that magic has no place here.

WELL THAT'S A PROBLEM.

So my question is; is it still worthwhile to use 5e as a RPG-system when magic is to be omitted? Am I stripping too much of its features by doing so?

The thing I mostly run into is spells (and thus the many spellcaster classes). A lot of spells can be conformed to the new style; blasting type spells can be explosives and such, while various gadgets and chemicals cover a lot of other spells. Straight up pep-talks can be a stand in for things like heroism and healing word, but the fan-favorite polymorph is in no way possible in the no-magic setting. I haven't checked each and every spell for viability of adaptation, but I'm afraid it's not sustainable. On the one hand it could be cool for players to dive into spell lists and try to find creative ways to make it work in-setting, but on the other hand it feels like I'm making it their problem for my own stubbornness for choosing 5e as a system.

I'm not well versed in RPG systems but I did some snooping around, but I haven't found a system that looks as good as 5e (I looked at Spirit of the Century (so Fate, which is too open), Dark Heresy (too gritty), Pathfinder (too crunchy) and GURPS (too... weird?), but if anyone has a suggestion I'm open to hearing them.

[Blood of Gaea]

Trying to adapt magic into being not-magic would be waaaay more hassle than changing systems. So change systems, or just talk to your group about what race and class options will be acceptable.

[Fecar]

Can you play 5e without magic, sure you can. The game wont break down because od player class selection. Before you do any ground work though you should talk to your players first to see if its something they want to play. No point spending a lot of time at it if it will never be played.

The quick way is to just ban all magic so:
1. Barbarians are mostly fine (frenzy only maybe)
2. Bards are out
3. Clerics are out
4. Druids are out
5. Fighters are mostly fine (no EKs)
6. Monks might be ok (WotOH only?)
7. Paladins are out
8. Rangers are a maybe (Unearthed Arcana has a spell-less ranger option)
9. Rogues are mostly fine (no ATs)
10. Sorcerers are out
11. Warlocks are out
12. Wizards are out

Out of 12 classes, 4 are yes and one is a maybe. That would work for a party.


Alternatively you can do some reworking like making custom druid forms that are like power armours similar to The Falcon and Ironman from the Marvel movies. If a paladin does mostly smites that looks a lot like sneak attack. A hexblade lock can look a lot like a paladin/melee fighter depending on play style.
If you do try to do a reworking/refluffing I would get your players to do most of it. The full casters are harder to do but certainly possible. Of course higher level spells get harder and harder to reflavour as they start altering reality.

[1Pirate]

Arguably 5e is the best edition for low or no-magic campaigns. Limiting what classes can be picked would be the easiest thing to do.

However, re-fluffing spells isn't terribly difficult(and DMs often ban individual spells, just let your players know ahead of time). I think I saw a stream once where the Cleric served the deity of Innovation or something like that and her spells were all "devices".

I'll 2nd checking with the players though(and do it sooner rather than later, it sounds like you've already done some legwork so you don't want to go and build a whole world just to find out no one wants to play that kind of game).

[Galithar]

On the first page there is currently a thread that has a 5e powered Mass Effect system. So it can be done, but the best way is use another system or something like the Mass Effect overhaul that replaces spells with different abilities/tech. (Biotics could be considered magic, but I think that system would work fine even if you totally removed biotics and their corresponding classes)

[j_spencer93]

The LOTR 5th edition is actually really good. So i'd say yes as it has no magic.

[Fable Wright]

...Really? Urban fantasy does nothing for you?

The tech wizard shooting a dart of mutagen into the barbarian so he hulks out into a T-Rex?

The druid crushing a vial of super-fertilizer to cause massive Plant Growth?

Ranger taking out his cell phone and calling a cadre of tiny diva pixies to help him out on a job?

The sorcerer cashing in a huge favor to call in orbital strikes (aka Meteor Swarm)?

None of this sounds appealing? Ah well. In that case, I very much recommend avoiding 5e as your system.

[JackPhoenix]

5e as a whole? No, not really.

Using basic 5e mechanics to create your own game that does what you want? Sure... Adventurers in Middle Earth has been noted: I wouldn't exactly call it "non-magic 5e", because it throws away standard 5e classes and provides their own version, with other modifications to get the core system compatible with the setting. So it can be done, but it's much more work than just "refluff some stuff and ban 3/4 of the game" to make it actually playable.

[darknite]

D&D is not a hammer and all settings are not nails. Find another rule set.

[n00b]

I've actually played in a no-magic campaign. We just finished it up about a month ago. I would not play in another one. Just my opinion.

[Brookshw]

You may want to post this in the general rpg forum for alternative system suggestions.

There's cyberpunk or shadowrun (sans magic) if you want sci-fi (or traveller). Call of Cthulu (sp?) where characters are primarily mundane but there's supernatural stuff a foot.

Have you considered the Tri-Stat system? It's very flexible and simple.

[Man_Over_Game]

5e wouldn't survive in a non-magical setting.

This is because:

Of the 12 core classes of the game, 6 aren't full casters.

Of the 6 remaining classes, 4 are not half-casters.

Of the 4 remaining classes, 1 doesn't have a subclass that's dependent upon magic.

And even that 1 has subclasses that still USE some forms of magic for its features.

Reducing 5e to only play with 4 classes, and then scrapping out 1/2 of the subclasses would be hardly anything to play with.

Additionally, since there are very limited options of modifying an attack, the game would be very boring. Magic often affects the battlefield, often involves friendly fire, and often is used to change up tactics. Martial characters don't have many options to adapt with, which means that the game will end up becoming stale.



For what you're describing, I'd recommend looking into the Adventures of Middle Earth tabletop rules. It focuses around making a mostly non-magical experience while basing everything off of 5e rules.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Is it possible? Yes; nothing will really break break with an all-mundane party. Is it worth it? Probably not-- Man_Over_Game's breakdown covers it pretty well.

[returnToThePast]

Magic and sufficiently advanced technology are indistinguishable. However, that does get a bit tricky in an early modern setting. I think it could work if your table is okay with banning certain spells on the fly because the group just can't come up with a plausible explanation for how they'd work in the setting.

[Waazraath]

I really don't see why not. Out of the possible opponents, there is a huge number that doesn't use magic, or magic-like, abilities. I see 0 difficulties with building a campaign with giants, monstrous humanoids (orcs, goblins, etc.) or 'normal' humanoids as adversary.

I likewise see 0 difficulties of having a party with 3-5 characters without magic abilities. The (sub)classes have been mentioned, a party consisting of a Battlemaster Figher, Swashbuckler Rogue, Drunken Master monk and Berserker Barbarian is competative and fun. And there are plenty of other options. And that's without slight tweaks, where (for example) the paladin uses all spells for smites, and LoH is refluffed as a 'combat medic' ability.

Do you use the entire system? Hell no. Do the pieces that you do use work well, and fit together, and allow you to play the game as intended? Hell yeah.

[GlenSmash!]

The LOTR 5th edition is actually really good. So i'd say yes as it has no magic.

Yup Adventures in Middle-Earth runs on 5e rules, but doesn't have the spellcasting subsystem. Note there is magic, but it is far more subtle and contained in Feats, and class abilities.

There are 6 non caster classes basically Barbarian, Spell-less Bard, Fighter, Spell-less Ranger, Rogue, Spell-less Wizard/Cleric.

Enworld's Savant is also a cool spell-less smart guy class so I'd give that a look too.

[opaopajr]

:smallcool: Of course it can work! And in fact I think it is easier as Basic 5e material is freely available as .pdf. You only have to use what you want: only turn on non-magic classes, drop all spells, turn only certain backgrounds on, change equipment to what is setting relevant, etc.

That said, I would check out Adventures of Middle Earth for far less magic, but some neat other tools that may help your game. It derives from the 5e SRD chassis, but strips almost all magic from it to instead play up Lord of the Rings adventure structure. :smallsmile:

Buying an RPG never means all material is assumed turned on. Remember, your desired setting comes first. :smallcool:

[LudicSavant]

D&D is not a hammer and all settings are not nails. Find another rule set.

This. No-magic 5e is a tragedy.

Why use 5e for this when you can use a system that's actually designed for it?

[Crucius]

5e wouldn't survive in a non-magical setting.

This is because:

Of the 12 core classes of the game, 6 aren't full casters.

Of the 6 remaining classes, 4 are not half-casters.

Of the 4 remaining classes, 1 doesn't have a subclass that's dependent upon magic.

And even that 1 has subclasses that still USE some forms of magic for its features.

Reducing 5e to only play with 4 classes, and then scrapping out 1/2 of the subclasses would be hardly anything to play with.

Additionally, since there are very limited options of modifying an attack, the game would be very boring. Magic often affects the battlefield, often involves friendly fire, and often is used to change up tactics. Martial characters don't have many options to adapt with, which means that the game will end up becoming stale.


That's what I figured as well, but it's good to hear many players that are (probably) more experienced than me think it's a bad idea.

I'll check out the Middle-Earth system! Then we'll see if it's easier to convince my friends to swap systems, or to tweak the various magical aspects of D&D.

Thanks everyone!

[Beleriphon]

That's what I figured as well, but it's good to hear many players that are (probably) more experienced than me think it's a bad idea.

I'll check out the Middle-Earth system! Then we'll see if it's easier to convince my friends to swap systems, or to tweak the various magical aspects of D&D.

Thanks everyone!

Adventures in Middle-Earth is basically using the D&D 5E engine in a new chasis. It isn't even really a new game, it works exactly the same way, all it does it provide a set of different classes that don't rely on "magic" to do the same things you do with wizards and clerics.

[KOLE]

I see it's already been mentioned, but Adventures in Middle Earth gets a nod from me as a well designed system with the best parts of 5e. It's well implemented. You could even run it in a homebrew system by changing some names, so you're not tied to Middle Earth. I'm not a huge fan of low fantasy RP, but even I enjoyed the classes and options added.

[napoleon_in_rag]

It looks like the consensus this will not work by the core rules but will work by modifications like LOTR. A different system might be better though.

The Giant describes trying to convert 5e into a low magic, dark ages setting in his "New World" blog. (Look at the left of your screen under gaming). He went with modifying the "d20 Modern" rules instead of 5e.

The Right Tool for the Right Job (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/d3yU9VbXd8DxiiVgD8k.html)

[Bjarkmundur]

...Really? Urban fantasy does nothing for you?

The tech wizard shooting a dart of mutagen into the barbarian so he hulks out into a T-Rex?

The druid crushing a vial of super-fertilizer to cause massive Plant Growth?

Ranger taking out his cell phone and calling a cadre of tiny diva pixies to help him out on a job?

The sorcerer cashing in a huge favor to call in orbital strikes (aka Meteor Swarm)?

None of this sounds appealing? Ah well. In that case, I very much recommend avoiding 5e as your system.

What was it called?! The one in 4e! With the plant people and crazy colors?!

[Naanomi]

-A Banneret (serving as face, tank, and healer)
-An Open-Hand Monk
-A Scout (nature skills, ranged damage)... Swashbuckler would also be reasonable
-A Frenzy Barbarian (depending on race options, battlerager is also available but... isn’t great)

It would be a passable party for most adventures

[GreyBlack]

Yes, the 5e _system_ works in a no-magic setting.

You just have to redesign almost all of the classes and remove the magical abilities from the classes you can, and that could be... quite a bit of work.

[Lupine]

Therefore I set out to create a campaign/setting using 5e rules that is of the non-fantasy variety (let's say it's semi-modern. I'm not the first to do it and I won't be the last). Thing is, the more I fleshed out the world and decided on the themes of the stories, the more I realized that magic has no place here.

WELL THAT'S A PROBLEM.


Actually, it isn't. Or at least, not as much as you might think.
First, before I get started, I advise you look at the Dishonored world. much of their creations are higher technology than what we have today, but much of it is much more primitive as well. In the original game, early on, you gain access to magic through the "outsider's mark" (this is first hour-ish of gameplay) With it, you can gain what is effectively blind-sight on steroids, a limited range teleport, a possession magic, a time warping magic, a summoning magic, and a tempast magic, out of a limited magic pool. Just because it's semi-modern, doesn't mean magic is low/excluded.There is an active group opposing the outsider and all he stands for. They're called the abbey of the every-man.

That brings me to the world building part. Why doesn't magic work? See, we built our society on what we know, and have access to. We fantasize about magic, because it was a concept used to explain phenomena that were explainable. I forgot who, but somebody said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Well, what if magic wasn't just a useful explanatory tool, but a full fledged force in the world? It's your world. why not?

Build magic into your society. Maybe a WWI like event happened, but instead of chemical weapons and artillery, it was fought with Stinking clouds and Lighting strikes. How would that change society? I can think of hundreds of little things. Maybe warfare magic is outlawed, in the same way that the Geneva conventions outlawed chemical weapons. Maybe a major religious faction opposes the use of all magic, and will turn hostile if said magic is used around them (such as the abbey of the Everyman).

If this idea of "how would it be different?" appeals to you, I advise you to read the Darkover books by Marion Zimmer Bradley. They do a fantastic job to a "how would it change" mindset for the medieval period.

Your stories will be far more memorable if you tell them in a world not yet seen, rather than an 1867 simulator with elves.

In the end, that's what we all want from TTRPGs. Memories. So ask yourself. Why? Why bother removing magic, when you can work it in.

[Arkhios]

If you're willing and able to look past the obvious obstacles (as laid out here before), then yes, no-magic can be done with 5e.

Regarding hammer and nails, allow me present to you a few toolboxes: Dungeon Master's Guide and Xanathar's Guide to Everything. They provide an industrious DM with files, saws, and blowtorches to overcome the obstacles. There are more tools than just a hammer and nails if you're not afraid to use them. In other words, fully learn the mechanics and homebrew to your heart's content. Or, if you feel you are all thumbs, explore the internet for something that fits your setting and fills some of the holes that were left behind by 8 spellcasting classes.

For example, feel free to check out my signature for the Warlord. Fully "mundane", martial support class capable of providing aid in and out of combat, like a bard, but entirely without spells.

[NRSASD]

I will also strongly recommend checking out Adventures in Middle Earth, though I will quibble a bit. Scholar takes a fair amount of work to make functional outside of Middle Earth, and Wanderer takes substantially more because most of its perks revolve around journeying (a unique AiME mechanic).

That said, we're currently playing a heavily modified non-magic 5E campaign right now, and it's a blast!

One big trick is to have interactive environments for the players to mess around with. If you have a party of 3 fighters, it's way more satisfying to have one distract the monster while the other two drop the 20ft tall demon statue on it than just have all 3 whack at it. Traps, pits, trees, wagons, anything and everything can be fun and useful if given the opportunity.

Another thing we do is have an expanded alchemical list. The alchemical equipment is about as powerful as a 1st level spell, so it rarely secures a kill, just sets it up for the others to finish it off.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I haven't seen anyone suggest D20 Modern. So I'll suggest that and also say that you can certainly do 5e with no magic. There are a lot of ways to convert it either by changing the flavor of most magic or taking out all the magic bits. This doesn't necessarily mean you should though. I don't think it would be that hard as it actually makes the game a good deal simpler. I'd make sure your players are okay with this way ahead of time though!

[gkathellar]

The Giant describes trying to convert 5e into a low magic, dark ages setting in his "New World" blog. (Look at the left of your screen under gaming). He went with modifying the "d20 Modern" rules instead of 5e.

Those articles were written before 5E came out. IIRC they were written before 4E came out. The system he opted out of was 3.5.