[Psionics] Manifest an Unknown Power from Another's Powers Known... on Yourself?

[ApologyFestival]

From the SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook:


Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known

A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15 + the highest level power in the power stone or repertoire). A psionic character can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Characters who can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters. Mental contact requires 1 full round of physical contact, which can provoke attacks of opportunity. Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.

Next, the psionic character must choose one of the powers and make a second Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level) to see if he understands it. If the power is not on his class list, he automatically fails this check.

Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.

This little-known psionics rule, found in both D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder, allows a psionic character to manifest a power from another psionic character's powers known.

Do you think that this rule can be used by a psionic character to... manifest from their own powers known, as if they were another psionic character?

There is some precedence for reading like this. For example, it's taken as a given that unless stated otherwise "You" count as an ally, a creature, a willing creature (and so on) for the purposes of adjudicating your own spells and special abilities. Is it fair to say that "You" also count as "a willing psionic character"? And, so, can apply this rule to yourself?

You may be wondering, "Why?" This could be beneficial to multiclassed manifesters, such as an ardent who dipped a level in psion for a bonus feat or alternate class feature. I am thinking that, if the ardent has the powers on their class list, they can treat themselves as another manifester in physical contact with themselves and thus, with a psicraft check, manifest their psion powers known using their ardent manifester level.

Anyone else think so?

[MisterKaws]

Takes, what, two rounds? Sure, go ahead, but you're spending quite a bit of time on that.

[ApologyFestival]

Takes, what, two rounds? Sure, go ahead, but you're spending quite a bit of time on that.
That's my reading too, but it's potentially a big power bump if the additional powers known are long-lasting buffs, or social/intrigue powers.

[InvisibleBison]

I don't think this would work. There's no way that your known powers could count as "a source other than [your] own knowledge".

[Segev]

I'd probably allow it, but only because I don't want to encourage the far more efficient Leadership or Thrallherd option wherein you get a bunch of low-level psions with the powers you want to follow you around and let you manifest out of their heads.

[Psyren]

I don't think this would work. There's no way that your known powers could count as "a source other than [your] own knowledge".

^ That.


I'd probably allow it, but only because I don't want to encourage the far more efficient Leadership or Thrallherd option wherein you get a bunch of low-level psions with the powers you want to follow you around and let you manifest out of their heads.

Or just, y'know, buy a stone/dorje?

"I wish I knew this power, better start a cult!" seems like overkill :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Or just, y'know, buy a stone/dorje?

"I wish I knew this power, better start a cult!" seems like overkill :smalltongue:

My minionmancy tendencies might be showing a little. :smallredface:

Edit: Wait, no. Power stones and djores are drained or lose a charge when you use them that way. Having minions with the power lets you manifest the power with your own PP and without draining the power from the person.

[AnimeTheCat]

My minionmancy tendencies might be showing a little. :smallredface:

Edit: Wait, no. Power stones and djores are drained or lose a charge when you use them that way. Having minions with the power lets you manifest the power with your own PP and without draining the power from the person.

It would be nice if there was an item like knowstone for psionics. Is there? I'm less familiar with specifically psionic stuff and I just allow knowstones to apply to psionic stuff as well since I treat psionics and spells the same for spell resistance, spell focus, etc.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It would be nice if there was an item like knowstone for psionics. Is there? I'm less familiar with specifically psionic stuff and I just allow knowstones to apply to psionic stuff as well since I treat psionics and spells the same for spell resistance, spell focus, etc.A fellow manifester using metamorphosis to become a bracelet or necklace or something so you can wear him (or her) and manifest from his (or her) powers known?

[Llyarden]

While I think you'd count as 'a willing psionic character,' I don't think you are 'another willing psionic character.' Granted it probably isn't stated anywhere that 'another' doesn't include you, but that's how the word works in normal English (and goodness knows a number of other important definitions are never mentioned anywhere.)

I guess you'd be able to make mental contact with yourself, since that only says 'a' and not 'another,' but I'm not sure that's very useful.

[Calthropstu]

I could see this being quite useful in some cases. Energy ray or Astral Construct both get nice boosts this way.

[Meditation]

It would be nice if there was an item like knowstone for psionics. Is there?

Mind Stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items/#TOC-Mind-Stone), Psionics Unleashed Revised, p. 195, Ultimate Psionics, p. 417.
Greater Mind Stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items/#TOC-Mind-Stone-Greater), Psionics Unleashed Revised, p. 196, Ultimate Psionics, p. 418.

Pathfinder only.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It would be nice if there was an item like knowstone for psionics. Is there? I'm less familiar with specifically psionic stuff and I just allow knowstones to apply to psionic stuff as well since I treat psionics and spells the same for spell resistance, spell focus, etc.Just make a psionic version. The MIC allows it explicitly. Just make sure you have some rough psionic equivalents of the prereqs, and you're good.

[SLOTHRPG95]

While I think you'd count as 'a willing psionic character,' I don't think you are 'another willing psionic character.' Granted it probably isn't stated anywhere that 'another' doesn't include you, but that's how the word works in normal English (and goodness knows a number of other important definitions are never mentioned anywhere.)

I guess you'd be able to make mental contact with yourself, since that only says 'a' and not 'another,' but I'm not sure that's very useful.

There's no need to state that "another" doesn't include you. As you mentioned, that's how the word works in normal English, and unless a word has a different definition/usage laid out (such as a technical definition) we operate under the assumption that it uses its common meaning.

[Crichton]

Just make a psionic version. The MIC allows it explicitly. Just make sure you have some rough psionic equivalents of the prereqs, and you're good.

Isn't this where the counterargument is that MIC allows psionic crafting of magic items, yes, but they replicate exactly the magic item's effect, so a psionically crafted knowstone would still bestow knowledge of a spell, not a power? I'm hardly an expert, but I've seen your claim rebutted thusly here, several times, and don't remember a counter-rebuttal...


The 'Psionics and Crafting Magic Items' sidebar on MIC pg 232 certainly doesn't seem to say that you can make a psionic item that has the psionics-equivalent effect of a magic item, but rather that you can use psionic powers that have the same effect as spell prerequisites, to make an item that has the same effect as the magic item (they use the example of teleportation, or energy burst in place of a necklace of fireballs; not sure that would extend to a psionic item that grants psionic benefits to psionics users that are psionic equivalents to the magical benefits for a magic user of a printed magic item)

[Meditation]

"I wish I knew this power, better start a cult!" seems like overkill :smalltongue:

N.B.: IRL, the promise of esoteric knowledge is a traditional reason for the formation of both secret societies and cults. How much more compelling would they be if their knowledge was of immediate, practical use with effects that trumped modern technology? Further, in the universes that 3x/Pathfinder would create, getting together to pool super-powers at mid- to low-levels makes so much obvious sense that it's the singletons that are bizarre. If psions and their ilk are not ultra-rare, a lone psion PC would be harder to justify than one that is part of a trope. Raw numbers (of individuals) eliminate nearly all of the action economy, ability access limitations, and daily use limitations of the laws of physics (as posited by 3x). Leadership isn't banned because it fails, it's banned because it works.

3x/PF taken at face value, vis-a-vis mechanics, is less medieval Europe and more post-singularity cyberpunk with politics dominated by metahuman communities, which is one of the thematic reasons things like E6 exist (to help prevent that). But even if you cut out higher-level effects, people are still going to actively create community networks that makes that whole "powers known" and "spells known" thing a triviality. And that's assuming Psychic Reformation isn't on the table.


Just make a psionic version. The MIC allows it explicitly. Just make sure you have some rough psionic equivalents of the prereqs, and you're good.


Isn't this where the counterargument is that MIC allows psionic crafting of magic items, yes, but they replicate exactly the magic item's effect, so a psionically crafted knowstone would still bestow knowledge of a spell, not a power? I'm hardly an expert, but I've seen your claim rebutted thusly here, several times, and don't remember a counter-rebuttal...


Not to dismiss the digression entirely, but, again, as a practical issue, it already exists in PF. Porting it to 3x would be so trivial that players or the DM may not even notice it that wasn't there in the first place.

[Psyren]

Isn't this where the counterargument is that MIC allows psionic crafting of magic items, yes, but they replicate exactly the magic item's effect, so a psionically crafted knowstone would still bestow knowledge of a spell, not a power? I'm hardly an expert, but I've seen your claim rebutted thusly here, several times, and don't remember a counter-rebuttal...


The 'Psionics and Crafting Magic Items' sidebar on MIC pg 232 certainly doesn't seem to say that you can make a psionic item that has the psionics-equivalent effect of a magic item, but rather that you can use psionic powers that have the same effect as spell prerequisites, to make an item that has the same effect as the magic item (they use the example of teleportation, or energy burst in place of a necklace of fireballs; not sure that would extend to a psionic item that grants psionic benefits to psionics users that are psionic equivalents to the magical benefits for a magic user of a printed magic item)

This is more or less the argument I've seen. Useful for making, say, Gloves of Dexterity with animal affinity instead of cat's grace, but not useful for making a psionic version of a spellcasting-focused item like a psionic pearl of power or a psionic knowstone.


N.B.: IRL, the promise of esoteric knowledge is a traditional reason for the formation of both secret societies and cults. How much more compelling would they be if their knowledge was of immediate, practical use with effects that trumped modern technology? Further, in the universes that 3x/Pathfinder would create, getting together to pool super-powers at mid- to low-levels makes so much obvious sense that it's the singletons that are bizarre. If psions and their ilk are not ultra-rare, a lone psion PC would be harder to justify than one that is part of a trope. Raw numbers (of individuals) eliminate nearly all of the action economy, ability access limitations, and daily use limitations of the laws of physics (as posited by 3x). Leadership isn't banned because it fails, it's banned because it works.

3x/PF taken at face value, vis-a-vis mechanics, is less medieval Europe and more post-singularity cyberpunk with politics dominated by metahuman communities, which is one of the thematic reasons things like E6 exist (to help prevent that). But even if you cut out higher-level effects, people are still going to actively create community networks that makes that whole "powers known" and "spells known" thing a triviality. And that's assuming Psychic Reformation isn't on the table.

The problem I have with this logic is that it's based on an incomplete premise. Yes, purely looking at the mechanics of 3.5 D&D we should quickly arrive at a post-scarcity Tippyverse in most settings. But those settings also have various agents and powers that are invested in the status quo (or at least resistant to the large-scale post-industry change that a Tippyverse would require), most notably deities. I can understand why some folks would find such a setting fun to play in, but I'm also glad that not every setting with high-level 3.5 casters can just be assumed to end up there, because the more traditional/incongruous quasi-medieval approach is fun too.

[Meditation]

The problem I have with this logic is that it's based on an incomplete premise. Yes, purely looking at the mechanics of 3.5 D&D we should quickly arrive at a post-scarcity Tippyverse in most settings. But those settings also have various agents and powers that are invested in the status quo (or at least resistant to the large-scale post-industry change that a Tippyverse would require), most notably deities. I can understand why some folks would find such a setting fun to play in, but I'm also glad that not every setting with high-level 3.5 casters can just be assumed to end up there, because the more traditional/incongruous quasi-medieval approach is fun too.

And yet, there are deities and lesser powers that want to aggressively alter the status quo, some even in the favor of the common person, so that is not a thematic certainty.

And, more importantly, the above quotation makes an unfounded assumption: that pseudomedieval Europe is the status quo. The default assumption in most D&Distic universes is a) the present setting is post-apocalypse (per explicit worldbuilding texts), b) there were totes super-duper metahuman abilities flipping about in the past (per explicit worldbuilding texts), and c) the metahuman abilities of the present day are pieces of the laws of physics and thus generally omnipresent (implicit in the mechanics since only a few abilities are noted as race-only, culture-only, faction-only, or otherwise obscure). I freely admit that I'm generalizing about D&D worlds from FR to Eberron, but the mechanics are fairly consistent. With D&D physics, you end up with a nonstandard fantasy setting where craftsmen and specialists are the technology in short order. You don't have to hit the "Tippiverse" to get there: the metahuman ability to create food or water given to, say, the persons crosing the Artic land bridge 15,000 years ago would make our entire timeline utterly impossible. Just those powers and no others and you'd never get to medieval Europe. The "Tippiverse" need not apply.

The issue isn't "do these powers cause you to leave Ye Old Tavern Times"? The issue is can you even get to Camelot et. al. when you have a bunch of guys that basically act as mobile aquifers and cell phone towers before we've invented the compass?

That said, I appreciate that people want traditional pseudomedieval tech in a lot of fantasy, which is why I endorse extensive houseruling (or a systems change) if that's you're jam. But you can only houserule effectively if you can identify the problem.

[Psyren]

Calling the default state of each setting a "houserule" seems odd to say the least.

I get your point that a great deal would change if magic was taken to its logical extreme. My point is merely that these worlds aren't all that logical at all.

As far as other gods wanting to change the status quo, the problem is that they're outnumbered - the ones who want status quo are more or less unified, while the ones who want to change all want things to change in different ways.

[Kris Moonhand]

Eberron feels a lot like a world where all the mages said "what if we participated in things instead of just hanging out in towers" and is a good middle ground between medieval stasis and full on Tippyverse. You got blimps, trains, robots, nations engaging in magical arms races...