Lycantropy, ultimate gish builds and the research of new ways of optimisation

[ThanatosZero]

Greetings fellow members of Giantitp,
For many years I have lurked in the forums, before I finally decided to join the forums for real.
Since there are no fellow DnD players around my place, I am far more interrested into the theorising aspect.

As such I am currently looking for 1 dip classes like Spellsword, which advance BAB and Spellcasting at the very first level.


The most recent build I posted on the 3e discord server of Giantitp, uses lycantropy to gain access to classes like Abjurant Champion and Dragonslayer.
Once Lycantropy is healed and the levels being lost, the gained Prestige Classes will qualify for themselves.


32 Point Buy, 2 Flaws (Shaky, Weak Will), 3 Bonus Feats (Combat Caster, Able Learner, Dodge)

Elf (any LA 0)

Starting Stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Wizard 2/Werebear 6/Abjurant Champion 4

Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 4 (After Healing)

Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1/Knight Phantom 10


In order to qualify for Dragonslayer we need Dodge and Iron Will. However, any feats gained during Lycantropy are lost, therefore we need to qualify for any PrC either before or after the loss of the lycantropy template class levels.

Most important is the feat Combat Casting for Abjurant Champion first.

After Healing away the lycantropy, we go to the Otyugh hole to traumatise toughen up the PC for to gain Iron Will (we lose 3000GM), so we fullfill the next prequisite.

As we gain Dragonslayer, we not only do advance the Wizard's Spell per Days and Caster Level, gain immunity to fear, we also gain all armor profiencies (light, medium, heavy), shield, tower shield and profiencies in all simple and martial weapons.
These allow us to qualify for Spellsword and Knight Phantom.

Before we go into Knight Phantom we go into Bladesinger, which require Weapon Focus (Longsword) and Combat Expertise, alongside Combat Caster and Dodge, which we took earlier. Able Learner takes care of the skill rank requirements.

With Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1
we have ECL 10, with level 10 Wizard Spellcasting and 9 BAB.

And with Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1/Knight Phantom 10
we have ECL 20, with level 19 Wizard Spellcasting and 19 BAB.


Despite with this excellent build, I wonder if there are other ways, to give non-elves the same chance.

If there is any non-evil alternative to bladesinger, it would open up humans to the same results and make the build less feat taxing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Looking at Troacctid's casting PrC list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493135-List-of-all-3-5-prestige-classes-that-progress-spellcasting), the only full-base attack full-arcane-casting PrC that could replace Bladesinger would be Fochlucan Lyrist, which is even more challenging to fit into the build.

[ThanatosZero]

Thank you ExLibrisMortis.

The Fochlucan Lyrist reminds me of what the first edition bard was.
It was also a prestige class. It required humans to dual class a minimum levels of fighter, thief and druid.
Once all the requisites were fullfilled you advanced the druid as a bard, which had IIRC all the benefits of the three classes. In addition you used after level 9 no fixed HP per level, but d6 for even more HP.

Now in regards to the Fochlucan Lyrist, we would need bardic knowledge and evade.
Evade is available for rogues and monks, and bardic knowledge only to bards.

As these are class features and not available as feats or 1st level feats, it would reduce BAB and the wizard's spell per day in the process.

Also, I noticed too late now, that Knight Phantom (Eberron) is settingwise, incompatible with Bladesinger (Forgotten Realms).

Due this we have two options.

1st) Replace Knight Phantom with Eldritch Knight

Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1/Eldritch Knight 10


2nd) Replace Knight Phantom with Sacred Exorcist

Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1/Sacred Exorcist 10

The first option still gives use 19 BAB and 19 Wizard Spellcasting, but less hit points and less class features.

The second option however will give us 16 BAB and 20th level Wizard Spellcasting, without a change in the hit points. Now the question remains if Arcane Disciple can be used for Divine Meta Magic Persist.
Also we would need atleast more wisdom to cast Divine Power, if the combination is legal this way.

[ThanatosZero]

Okay, let us go with a human wizard build this time, meaning no Bladesinger.

Human

Lvl 1 -> Lvl 20

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16 -> 21
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Point Buy: 32


1. Wizard [Flaw: Weak Will][Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Able Learner]
2. Wizard
3. Werebear [Bonus Feat: Practiced Spellcaster Wizard] [Otyugh hole: Iron Will -3000 GM]
4. Werebear [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
5. Werebear
6. Werebear [Bonus Feat]
7. Werebear
8. Werebear [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
9. Dragonslayer [Bonus Feat]
10. Abjurant Champion
11. Abjurant Champion
12. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence] [Bonus Feat]
13. Abjurant Champion
14. Abjurant Champion


Healing Lycantropy


1. Wizard [Flaw: Shaky][Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Able Learner]
2. Wizard
3. Dragonslayer [Bonus Feat] [Otyugh hole: Iron Will]
4. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
5. Abjurant Champion
6. Abjurant Champion [Bonus Feat]
7. Abjurant Champion
8. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence]


In order to avoid any rule complication with any DM/GM, we go straight to the Otyugh hole at Character Level 3, when we gain our first level as a werebear. We do not take the 2nd werebear level yet, because we would later lose Iron Will by the werebear class feature. Also if we go later into the location, as 2nd and higher level werebear, we would not gain Iron Will by RAW.

Doing it this way, we avoid losing the preqisites for Dragonslayer and Abjurant Champion after healing away our lycantropy (Dragonslayer as a one level dip gives us all profiencies we need for Abjurant Champion, Spellsword and Eldritch Knight).

We continue to advance, after losing the level related bonus feats and ability increases.


1. Wizard [Flaw: Shaky][Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Able Learner]
2. Wizard
3. Dragonslayer [Bonus Feat] [Otyugh hole: Iron Will]
4. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
5. Abjurant Champion
6. Abjurant Champion [Bonus Feat]
7. Abjurant Champion
8. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
9. Spellsword [Bonus Feat] (At this point we have CL 9, 8 BAB and still have access to full wizard spellcasting)
10. Eldritch Knight [Fighter Bonus Feat]
11. Eldritch Knight
12. Eldritch Knight [Ability Increase: Intelligence] [Bonus Feat]
13. Eldritch Knight
14. Eldritch Knight
15. Eldritch Knight [Bonus Feat]
16. Eldritch Knight [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight [Bonus Feat]
19. Eldritch Knight (At this point we have CL 19, 18 BAB and 18/20 wizard spellcasting)
20. Sacred Exorcist [Ability Increase: Intelligence]


For the final level only Bladesinger as a non-evil way is possible to grant elves 19 BAB and 19/20 wizard spellcasting.
All other non-evil prestige classes ways require class features and more feats for to qualify.
Due the limits, we take as final level Sacred Exorcist, to complete the 20 levels.

As in the other post, we could instead take 10 levels of Sacred Exorcist (plus 1 level of Wizard) to complete the build.


1. Wizard [Flaw: Shaky][Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Able Learner]
2. Wizard
3. Dragonslayer [Bonus Feat] [Otyugh hole: Iron Will]
4. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
5. Abjurant Champion
6. Abjurant Champion [Bonus Feat]
7. Abjurant Champion
8. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
9. Spellsword [Bonus Feat] (At this point we have CL 9, 8 BAB and still have access to full wizard spellcasting)
10. Sacred Exorcist
11. Sacred Exorcist
12. Sacred Exorcist [Ability Increase: Intelligence] [Bonus Feat]
13. Sacred Exorcist
14. Sacred Exorcist
15. Sacred Exorcist [Bonus Feat]
16. Sacred Exorcist [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
17. Sacred Exorcist
18. Sacred Exorcist [Bonus Feat]
19. Sacred Exorcist
20. Wizard [Ability Increase: Intelligence]


By RAW we have now 16 BAB and 20/20 Wizard Spellcasting. Using UA's Fractional BAB and Saves
we have instead 17 BAB.

There is but one question left.
Can Arcane Disciple spells, like Divine Power, be used with Divine Metamagic?

Despite that Arcane Disciple requires Wisdom to cast the Domain Spells, they are still Arcane Spells.
So no divine metamagics using Sacred Exorcist's many turn undead per day.

Also there is basically no other prestige class, which could properly replace the sacred exorcist.

The only option to make the many turning attempts useable, is to take 10 levels of rainbow servant in epic for to gain access to all cleric spells, which are cast as divine spells instead of arcane.

[Rebel7284]

Savage Bard 1/Werefleshraker 4/Ur Priest 4
Turns into Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 4
Persist Divine Power.
Win

[ThanatosZero]

Savage Bard 1/Werefleshraker 4/Ur Priest 4
Turns into Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 4
Persist Divine Power.
Win

If we follow this build, we reach

Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 10, which by a large margin is overpowered.
This is something I rather like to see used by the DM as a BBEG.

But using what we have here, we can do better than that, and instead of Savage Bard, we take the path of a evil atheistic wizard, bend on gaining as much power as possible.

32 Point Buy

Human

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 8
Int: 17
Wis: 17
Cha: 8

Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/ Ur Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 10

Instead of a werebear, we use a werewolf lord.

In the end we have 14BAB, which is not much of a hassle.
18/20 Wizard casting and 10/10 UrPriest spells per day, with a CL of either 16 or 21.

[ThanatosZero]

This may or may not be thread necromany, since I started it originally, but the new post is relevant.

Today I showcase, that it is possible to take Eldritch Knight at character level 2.

Without further redo, here the build.


Illumian (later Sun Elf) 32 Point Buy

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 16 -> 14
Int: 16 -> 23
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Wizard 1/ Eldritch Knight 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Bladesinger 1/ Dragonslayer1/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight +5 (10)/ Wizard +1 (2)


1. Wizard [Feat: Militia] [Flaws: Weak Will, Shaky]
2. Eldritch Knight [Fighter Bonus Feat: Dodge]
3. Eldritch Knight [Feat: Combat Casting] [Magic Location: Otyugh Hole: Iron Will]
4. Eldritch Knight [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
5. Eldritch Knight
6. Eldritch Knight [Feat: Combat Expertise]
7. Abjurant Champion
8. Abjurant Champion [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
9. Abjurant Champion [Feat: Weapon Focus Longsword]
10. Abjurant Champion [Retrain Feat: Improved Sigil Krau to Heighten Spell] [Ritual of Vitality: Sun Elf]
11. Abjurant Champion
12. Bladesinger [Ability Increase: Intelligence] [Feat]
13. Dragonslayer
14. Spellsword
15. Eldritch Knight [Feat]
16. Eldritch Knight [Ability Increase: Intelligence]
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight [Feat]
19. Eldritch Knight
20. Wizard [Ability Increase: Intelligence]

This build gives us 19 BAB and 19/20 of Wizard Spellcasting.

Improved Sigel Krau with Precocious Apprentice makes the 2nd level Arcane spell to a 3rd level spell, which qualifies us for Eldritch Knight as one of the important criteria. The other is the 1st level feat Militia, which grants us profiency in all Martial Weapons.

With this we advance into Eldritch Knight and take Combat Casting till we qualify for Abjurant Champion. For other prestige class qualifications later we take Combat Expertise, Dodge and Weapon Focus Longsword, along with a visit in the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will.

Once we reach Abjurant Champion 4, we start to prepare for our permanent transformation into a Sun Elf. We retrain our Improved Sigil Krau into a Metamagic feat of our choice (in my case Heighten Spell).
In addition we now qualify naturally for Eldritch Knight, as we can cast without any levels in
Eldritch Knight 3rd Level spells.

With the retraining completed, we undergo the ritual of vitality and become a Sun Elf. We
lose -2 Constitution, but gain +2 Intelligence and the racial features of the Sun Elf in return.
Least to say, we lose any racial features of being a Illumian.

Since we are now a elf, we can go now for Bladesinger, then for Dragonslayer and last but
not least Spellsword for dips to advance our spellcasting and our Base Attack Bonus.

With those taken, we fill out the remaining levels in Eldritch Knight, with one final level in Wizard.


Now to calculate the stats.

Hitpoints are the following:
2d4+10d6+1d10+5d10+1d8+1d8 +40 (due Constitution bonus)

If we only take half of the HP rolls we have
72+40 of 144+40 HP
[B]
Saves by abilities, classes, flaws and feats:

Regular:
Fortitude: +2 Con + 0 + 7 + 1 + 0 + 2 + 2 = 14
Reflex: +2 Dex + 0 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 0 + 0 = 8
Will: -1 Wis + 3 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 - 3 Weak Will + 2 Iron Will = 14

Fractional:
Fortitude: +2 Con + 0.66 + 7.00 + 1.66 + 0.33 + 2.50 + 2.50 = 16
Reflex: +2 Dex + 0.66 + 3.00 + 1.66 + 2.50 + 0.33 + 0.33 = 10
Will: -1 Wis + 3.00 + 3.00 + 4.50 + 2.50 + 2.50 + 2.50 - 3 Weak Will + 2 Iron Will = 16

Once we are able to cast Wish, we can improve our abilities. With a Headband of Intellect +6 we reach 28 INT to gain a 9th level bonus spell for more consecutive Wish castings to improve our inherent ability bonus.

At ECL 20 we can cast with atleast 28 INT Wish 4 times.
This changes the abilities as displayed below.

Str: 14 -> 18
Dex: 14 -> 18
Con: 14 -> 18
Int: 23 -> 27
Wis: 8 -> 12
Cha: 8 -> 12

Thus all saves increase by 2 and HP by additional 40 points.

Now some may ask, can we wish away our flaws?
Only the Dungeon Master of your campaign may know.

With this we have the ultimate gish build by RAW, which is only possible with flaws.

[ben-zayb]

If I were to make an ultimate gish, I wouldn't worry about BAB if persisted Divine Power (via Arcane Disciple) is on the table anyway. I'd probably go for something like

Wizard or Wu Jen 1 / Warblade 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 10 / Incantatrix 3 / Archmage 5

Wu Jen is if you want to nab Giant Size and Body Outside Body without feats, and Archmage is for giving your clones SLAs (including Giant Size, Divine Power, and Body Outside Body for even more clones)

[ThanatosZero]

If I were to make an ultimate gish, I wouldn't worry about BAB if persisted Divine Power (via Arcane Disciple) is on the table anyway. I'd probably go for something like

Wizard or Wu Jen 1 / Warblade 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 10 / Incantatrix 3 / Archmage 5

Wu Jen is if you want to nab Giant Size and Body Outside Body without feats, and Archmage is for giving your clones SLAs (including Giant Size, Divine Power, and Body Outside Body for even more clones)

My apologies for the late reply, but a quick check up revealed, that you cannot go for these 3 prestige classes at character level 2.
Your maximum skill rank is 5 at that point of time. JPM requires 9 ranks concentration, Incantatrix respectively 8 ranks in knowledge arcana and the planes. Last but not least, archmage needs 15 ranks in both knowledge arcana and spellcraft.

By RAW, this build is illegal.



There are other ways though, as I was able to find out.

Southern Magician, a feat from 3.0 allows the caster once per day per 2 spellcaster levels, to alter either a arcane spell to a divine spell or vice versa with all benefits and disadvantages the alteration entails. This requires the character to be a mulan human and to be able to cast 2nd level spells.

Also mulan humans can grow up in Turmish, which qualifies them for the regional 1st level feat Militia.

Using the above build, a Illumian born of mulan humans (which means there was a Illumian in the family line) could cast divine spells in co-junction with arcane disciple.

I will later make a build of it, using the above with either Incantatrix or Sacred Exorcist with Divine metamagic.

[Anthrowhale]

By RAW, this build is illegal.

I don't believe skill points are lost if you lose access to class features. Hence, skill points, like BAB, are strongly self-qualifying.

There's a slightly more manipulable method than lycanthropy discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588329-Temporary-Tainted-Spellcaster) to the same effect.

[ThanatosZero]

I don't believe skill points are lost if you lose access to class features. Hence, skill points, like BAB, are strongly self-qualifying.

There's a slightly more manipulable method than lycanthropy discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588329-Temporary-Tainted-Spellcaster) to the same effect.

This is a interresting way on how to attain that one level build one has in mind.
Still... There is a Sublime Chord build I published on the giantitp's 3.5 discord server, which has 19 BAB and 10/10 Sublime Chord casting, which is almost like 19/20 sorcerer spellcasting (they know 2 level 9 spells, but cannot cast them as often as a sorcerer could).

Also... My build for the wizard above, can easly swapped with that of an sorcerer, but it would require me to lower dexterity to raise intelligence.

I am going to check later the specifics for skill ranks per level with the reduced intelligence.