NE paladin alternatives

[AthasianWarlock]

Is there any resources out there for netural evil paladin that isn't dragon mag?

If not I'm looking for a full BAB class or Prc.
The LE paladin fits the bill but My character isn't particularly lawful. He lies a lot and is currently a covert spy within the group he is in. He has become the face of the group somewhat. He is willing to kill anyone who steps out of line.

[liquidformat]

Bone Knight(5N) and Blackguard(DMG) are your best bets.

Bone Knight is pretty easy entry from cleric or paladin, and is a little more goofy to enter but not bad. I often like to enter Blackguard from ranger or melee rogue

[MisterKaws]

Crusader? Or just a Cleric I guess.

[AnimeTheCat]

You could try discussing with your DM that Paladins must match their deity's alignment and that their code of concuct is generated based off of the deity's portfolio and morals. I think this is more immersive, more fun, and lets the paladins be more than cookie cutters of each other, really sinking in to the role of holy/unholy warrior for ABC deity.

For Neutral deities, check what their clerics do or what they trend to for things like turn/rebuke undead to determine whether you detect good or evil, turn or rebuke undead, etc and see where they trend on the chaos-law axis for determining whether they have the lawful or chaotic paladin aura. In this way, you're not recreating any classes, just putting the existing abilities together in the most suitable form. For example, a Paladin of Fharlanghn would Turn Undead, Lay on Hands, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, and would have an Aura of Resolve like a Paladin of Freedom. Similarly, a Paladin of Wee Jas would likely have the same abilities as a Paladin of Tyranny since Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral but rebukes undead as if she were an evil cleric. The Paladin of Fharlanghn would have to remain Neutral and might have a code of conduct that perscribes that he not remain in any one place for too long, that he encourage others to strike out into the world, that he remove that which binds people to where they are, and that he never deny shelter or protection to those who travel. Meanwhile the Paladin of Wee Jas might be required to promote the use and proliferation of magic, magical items, and magical abilities into all facets of life, punish those who shun or abstain (or flee from) magic, respect and try to peacefully resolve conflicts with those who came before (aka, try not to kill undead too often), and to always record as much knowledge as possible and protect those centers of knowledge with their last breath.

It's always more fun to come up with specific and unique codes of conduct for your characters, and the best part is that these should apply to both Paladins and Clerics alike (and druids if your druids patronize a deity).

[Kish]

You could try discussing with your DM that Paladins must match their deity's alignment and that their code of concuct is generated based off of the deity's portfolio and morals.
Thus making a paladin a variant cleric. What would be a cleric archetype, if we were discussing 3.P rather than 3.x.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thus making a paladin a variant cleric. What would be a cleric archetype, if we were discussing 3.P rather than 3.x.

Uhm... I don't think i called it a cleric variant, and more so it doesn't look or feel like a cleric. Still delayed spellcasting, still delayed turn undead, still has a special amount, still has lsy on hands, still has at will detect x... how is this a variant cleric? It's a deity specific play one the 4 variants of paladin that exist in the 3.5 phb and unearthed arcana. Last I checked, clerics didn't even have codes of conduct so I really don't see where you're coming from with your comment.

[Kish]

Might help if you checked again.


Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).
Beyond that, yes, you've described a number of mechanical differences, between a divine spellcaster/warrior hybrid servant of a god tilted toward combat and one tilted toward spellcasting. As I said, comparable to a Pathfinder class archetype.

Just out of curiosity, how does "at will detect X" fit a (say) "paladin of" Fharlanghn (and what's X in that case)? If you're not changing that class feature for your god-servant paladins...why not, exactly?

[Mike Miller]

Crusader? Or just a Cleric I guess.

Crusaders can't be neutral, though.

[MisterKaws]

Crusaders can't be neutral, though.

I thought that only applied to TN?

[Mike Miller]

The language of the alignment section for crusaders sounds like no neutral to me. I just re-read it.

[AnimeTheCat]

Might help if you checked again.


Beyond that, yes, you've described a number of mechanical differences, between a divine spellcaster/warrior hybrid servant of a god tilted toward combat and one tilted toward spellcasting. As I said, comparable to a Pathfinder class archetype.

Just out of curiosity, how does "at will detect X" fit a (say) "paladin of" Fharlanghn (and what's X in that case)? If you're not changing that class feature for your god-servant paladins...why not, exactly?

Might help if you check my post again! Did you even read past the first paragraph of what you quoted? I went in to pretty thorough detail about how you could determine what a paladin of a neutral deity would detect, whether they would turn or rebuke, and what other class abilities they would have based on their deity. In fact I SPECIFICALLY used Fharlanghn in my example due to him being a true neutral deity. I used his entry in Deities and Demigods to determine whether he turns or rebukes undead (he turns) so his paladins would detect evil, turn undead, and lay on hands. Then I looked to his dogma about encouraging people not to stick around for too long and decided he would ere on the side of chaotic and would thusly have the paladin of freedom as his paladin's template. Last, I created a simple code of conduct that would guide players to action. How exactly didn't I address your questions before you even asked them? Don't worry, I'll wait while you go read my first post again. I really shouldn't have had to repeat myself when I already explained that the first time and you chose to ignore it.

Furthermore, mechanical differences are the only differences between clerics and paladins. You could call the paladin base class in 3.5 and pathfinder comparable to a cleric archetype already. What is the difference between a cleric and a paladin in 3.5. Both are holy warriors, clergymen, and spell casters. One leans more towards combat, the other towards spellcasting. They're already exactly as you describe.

[AthasianWarlock]

Cleric doesn't get full BAB. I think what I'll probably do is take paladin of tyranny. Devil's lie and bealzebub is the Lord of lies so I don't think lying is nessesarily chaotic.

[Psyren]

The Pathfinder Antipaladin has the "Insinuator" archetype that can be CE, NE, and LE.

[ThanatosZero]

The best thing about a Paladin of Tyranny is, that they can twist the meaning of their own words, without even lying.
Imagine you speak like a lawyer using the Black's Law Dictionary.

IIRC, when policemen ask in certain US states "Do you understand?", they do not ask if you can comprehend their words, but rather under their dictionary, if you stand under their authority.

Also when you speak, you only reveal a minimum of truth, so you can better manipulate.


Another option is to start as a Paladin of Tyranny and become a NE Blackguard afterwards.

[Dalmosh]

If you compare the Crusader alignment text to that of the Soulborn; which is explictly allowed no neutral component to its alignment, the inference is that you can indeed be a neutral evil Crusader.

"Alignment: Soulborns are polarized in their alignments, hewing to strong convictions of morality and ethics. As such,they can only be lawful good, chaotic good, lawful evil, or chaotic evil."

vs.

"A crusader can choose any alignment except neutral - she must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, , good, evil, law, or a combination of principles."

It's pretty clear cut.

If you are masochistic enough to be a Divine Mind, then that much-maligned Paladin variant can be any alignment, even True Neutral.

[Particle_Man]

Incarnate can be an odd choice but with the right soul melds it could duplicate a paladin that is evil. You could even go for the necrocarnate soulmelds or the prestige class that basically uses them and gains soul points from the recently dead to fuel them.

Otherwise, Blackguard is the simplest answer. Crusader also works. I think you could event be that ruby knight vindicator, assuming that Wee Jas doesn’t have a “no ne “ rule on her worshippers.

With Pathfinder the Order of the Cockatrice version of the Cavalier comes close. You don’t get the magical goodies but you get the mounted knight fighting for a cause (in this case the cause is serving your own interests above everyone else’s).

[hamishspence]

Incarnate can be an odd choice but with the right soul melds it could duplicate a paladin that is evil. You could even go for the necrocarnate soulmelds or the prestige class that basically uses them and gains soul points from the recently dead to fuel them.

Otherwise, Blackguard is the simplest answer. Crusader also works. I think you could event be that ruby knight vindicator, assuming that Wee Jas doesn’t have a “no ne “ rule on her worshippers.


As a LN deity, NE is two steps away - so you couldn't be a Cleric of Wee Jas and NE.

[Particle_Man]

Ah good catch. I was thinking she was le for some reason.

[AnimeTheCat]

Ah good catch. I was thinking she was le for some reason.

I mean, she does rebuke undead which would mean her clerics rebuke and channel negative energy, so it's not surprising that you would think she was LE. Also, I think some books/stories paint her in a very evil light. Her faith certainly doesn't shy away from using undead, but it's not a major tennet of her faith. I think the only reason she's Neutral as opposed to evil is that her religion focuses on the use, research, and history of magic as opposed to something more nefarious, meaning that she's as likely to save lives as she is to take them in the grand scheme. It all depends on the reason behind taking or saving those lives, and that reason would be purely for furthering magic and magical aptitude through the world.

[The_Snark]

The language of the alignment section for crusaders sounds like no neutral to me. I just re-read it.

Really? The text says, "she must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, evil, good, or law, or a combination of those principles..." I feel like it wouldn't make any sense to phrase it that way if it's supposed to mean they can't have any neutral component in their alignment, it strongly implies they can stand for just chaos/law/etc rather than being required to pick a combination.

In addition, the example crusader is NE, and they have a crusader-only prestige class dedicated to a LN deity.

[Kish]

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty clearly "you cannot be True Neutral," not "you cannot have the word Neutral in your alignment."

[Dunsparce]

Issues 310 and 311 of Dragon Magazine created Paladin variants for the 8 non-LG alignments. The CG, LE, and CE ones are different from the Paladins of Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter from Unearthed Arcana

The Neutral Evil one was known as the Corruptor, and specialized, as the name implies, in pretending to be non-evil to corrupts others, gaining many class abilities to help prevent being found out.