Best Class / Build for Our Group

[blinker_fluid]

Hello fellow D&Ders!

Our group is starting at level 1. The first campaign will start with the Lost Mine of Phandelver and then probably homebrew until level ?.

Current Party:

Paladin: Oath of the Ancients - S&B
Fighter: Eldritch Knight - 2 Hander
Cleric: Life - S&B
Druid: Moon
Bard
Me

All players are new to newish.

No restrictions to multiclassing, races, books, etc.

Looking for a character with superior damage and versatility.

I'm leaning towards sorcadin (2 pal / 18 sorc) or sorlock for the high damage, decent survivability, and spells to damage / get out of tough spots.

I rolled 18-16-15-15-12-10. I'm into min-maxing - that's just part of what I enjoy.

Our group will probably only play 6-8 hours total a month, so we may be at lower levels for a while.

What would you play / recommend for our group?

Thanks in advance!

[Man_Over_Game]

Fewer hours in a month means you'll have fewer encounters. Fewer encounters means you want to avoid being a Short Rest dependent class, like a Warlock or a Fighter (They get better the more fights they can do in a day). I'd recommend focusing on a class that utilizes Long Rest resources (which are basically any full caster and Paladins).

Additionally, most of your class consists of fairly tanky characters. The squishiest person in the party happens to be a Bard with Light Armor and a 1d8 Hit Die. Your team also has 1-3 healers. Your team also is pretty low on damage, considering your highest damage dealers are using subclasses known for survivability over damage (Eldritch Knight and Ancients).

So I'd say go for the squishiest, most range-dependent character you can be. I'd also say diversify from what the party already has.

2 party members use Wisdom. 2 members use Charisma. 3 members use Strength. 1 member uses Dexterity. 1 member slightly uses Intelligence (not much).

So I'd say go for Wizard. If you want less magic, a Rogue (into Arcane Trickster) is my second suggestion. These fill in the largest gap in the party (intelligence/dexterity, damage dealing), which also makes you stand out that much more.

As for what kind of Wizard, Evocation or Conjuration are my suggestions, due to how durable your team is and how well those subclasses synergize with melee allies. Really, most kinds of Wizards would work, I just wouldn't recommend Divination, Abjuration or Enchantment (the team is already durable enough).

[Waazraath]

To be honest, in a party with mostly new folks, I wouldn't optimize the hell out of your character and aim for superior damage (let alone superior damage AND utility) with something like Sorcadin.

If I look at the party, unless the EK focusses on Int (which would be a weird choice, mostly, with a heavy weapon), you're only missing an int based character. So I'd pick wizard, and play it as a support caster, buff, battle field control, etc. Fun and versatile, complementary to the rest and you won't overshadow others if you fully optimize.

For a race, I'd pick hobgoblin, or Mountain Dwarf you can afford it with these stats not to start with 20 in your main stat.

Man_Over_Game: bard has light armor, unless Valor and that only at 3.

[nickl_2000]

Combine you idea with the ones on here.

Wizardin (Wizard/Paladin).

2 level Paladin and X levels Wizard.

Githyanki
18+2 Strength
10 Dex
16 Con
12 Wis
15+1 Int
15 Cha

You get all the goodies of rituals and versatility of Wizard (and BB/GFB), the armor of a Paladin, and smiting goodness. It's something a little different that you can easily do with your stats,.

[Man_Over_Game]

Combine you idea with the ones on here.

Wizardin (Wizard/Paladin).

2 level Paladin and X levels Wizard.

Githyanki
18+2 Strength
10 Dex
16 Con
12 Wis
15+1 Int
15 Cha

You get all the goodies of rituals and versatility of Wizard (and BB/GFB), the armor of a Paladin, and smiting goodness. It's something a little different that you can easily do with your stats,.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the benefit of the Paladin is. With a wall of meat like that (3 Heavy Armor users and a Moon Druid) in a team of 6, there's not much that's going to really be targeting the Wizard, and there won't be many chances for the Wizard to contribute effectively on the front lines (when he could be doing something like casting Hypnotic Pattern on the enemy team).

I mean, I understand the value of it as part of a concept, I just don't think it'll add anything for the team, and I don't expect the Divine Smite to be relevant past character level 5.

[Wildarm]

Current Party:

Paladin: Oath of the Ancients - S&B
Fighter: Eldritch Knight - 2 Hander
Cleric: Life - S&B
Druid: Moon
Bard
Me

I rolled 18-16-15-15-12-10. I'm into min-maxing - that's just part of what I enjoy.

Our group will probably only play 6-8 hours total a month, so we may be at lower levels for a while.

What would you play / recommend for our group?

Thanks in advance!

With those stats, go for a ranged DPS type character. If revised ranger is available, Kobold or Elf RR6/RogueX would be my recommendation. Starting with 20 in Dex lets you pickup sharpshooter at level 4. Archery fighting style and advantage from pact tactics will mean you still hit ALOT. Grab crossbow expert at level 10 and go to town with your gattling hand crossbow.

Other strong ranged options:

Battlesmith or Artillerist Artificer X
Battlemaster Fighter X (If no UA allowed) - Grab SS at level 4 and CBX at Level 6, Res(Wis) at level 8

Honestly though, you rolled really well. Maybe try some MAD multiclass like a tanky Barbarian/Rogue or a Strength based Barb/Monk. You have a lot of melee types who would love it when foes have been grappled and knocked prone.

[blinker_fluid]

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the benefit of the Paladin is. With a wall of meat like that (3 Heavy Armor users and a Moon Druid) in a team of 6, there's not much that's going to really be targeting the Wizard, and there won't be many chances for the Wizard to contribute effectively on the front lines (when he could be doing something like casting Hypnotic Pattern on the enemy team).

I mean, I understand the value of it as part of a concept, I just don't think it'll add anything for the team, and I don't expect the Divine Smite to be relevant past character level 5.

Thanks all! Still open to suggestions.

I was thinking back line damage as well with 4 melee. We're good on healing.

I'm concerned our group won't optimize for damage, so we'll need more DPR (single target & AoE). I'd also like spells for problem solving. Wizard versatility is great but lacks damage (vs. sorc / sorcadin / sorlock) from what I've read.

[RulesJD]

Thanks all! Still open to suggestions.

I was thinking back line damage as well with 4 melee. We're good on healing.

I'm concerned our group won't optimize for damage, so we'll need more DPR (single target & AoE). I'd also like spells for problem solving. Wizard versatility is great but lacks damage (vs. sorc / sorcadin / sorlock) from what I've read.

Your group has almost 0 AoE damage but plenty of single target damage.

Evocation Wizard is the best 'damage' class in the game due to Spell Sculpting. Level 3 get Shatter and Flaming Sphere (not an evocation spell but it's amazing). Drop Shatters where ever you want while ramming the sphere as a bonus action. At level 3, upgrade to Fireball. Done. You'll be doing the most damage by a mile.

I would absolutely love a group full of healing + tanky/single target DPR. Means my Wizard gets to absolutely roll face. Plus, spoiler alert, there is a great Wizard item fairly early in the campaign which will help you just go straight damage 24/7.

[nickl_2000]

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the benefit of the Paladin is. With a wall of meat like that (3 Heavy Armor users and a Moon Druid) in a team of 6, there's not much that's going to really be targeting the Wizard, and there won't be many chances for the Wizard to contribute effectively on the front lines (when he could be doing something like casting Hypnotic Pattern on the enemy team).

I mean, I understand the value of it as part of a concept, I just don't think it'll add anything for the team, and I don't expect the Divine Smite to be relevant past character level 5.

Because the OP said they were thinking sorciden. It certainly isn't needed with the wall of meat that is out there. However it gives the party something they need (wizard spells and int), while still being similar to the OP initial though, and it is something different

[Man_Over_Game]

Thanks all! Still open to suggestions.

I was thinking back line damage as well with 4 melee. We're good on healing.

I'm concerned our group won't optimize for damage, so we'll need more DPR (single target & AoE). I'd also like spells for problem solving. Wizard versatility is great but lacks damage (vs. sorc / sorcadin / sorlock) from what I've read.

Not sure who told you Wizards lack damage. They aren't limited in terms of spell selection like Sorcerers are, and they have all the same damage spells at their disposal. The main reason you'd want to be a Sorcerer is for Metamagic gimmicks, which usually revolves around Concentration/Support spells to make the most of it.

I mean, Fireball is one of the most efficient damage effects in the game, and it's a Wizard staple.

[Aaron Underhand]

Pure Wizard - Hobgoblin WarMage. Start with Dex and Con at 18 and Int at 16. You wont overshadow, but you'll be great. Know longbow and rapier and use them up to level 4.

[Spore]

Personally I would go for Diviner to

a) give the DM RP hooks for the other players and yourself.

b) I love that "no you didn't fail the save/actually you did hit" :smallamused:, now go RP how you resist the magic/finish the enemy off" moments

c) I'd go Urchin and take care of traps and locks as well if no one else does this. In fact I already did and the RP is phenomenal.

You basically get the people where they need to be, in and out of dungeons and dangerous situations, you're basically the mastermind. But they are the heroes and they have fun too.

[Tallytrev813]

I mean, you could play Barbarian with PAM/GWM, like a Zealot build. Just go full hammer smashed face.

Another idea for high damage is a Gloomstalker Ranger.

I prefer straight builds though, not multi classing.

[CharacterIV]

Personally I would go for Diviner to

a) give the DM RP hooks for the other players and yourself.

b) I love that "no you didn't fail the save/actually you did hit" :smallamused:, now go RP how you resist the magic/finish the enemy off" moments

c) I'd go Urchin and take care of traps and locks as well if no one else does this. In fact I already did and the RP is phenomenal.

You basically get the people where they need to be, in and out of dungeons and dangerous situations, you're basically the mastermind. But they are the heroes and they have fun too.

I'm with this. A dedicated problem-solver Wizard is what the group needs structurally, and it seems like you're the most experienced player, so playing that sagacious role would be useful both in combat and RP. Let the beaters do the beating.

[LudicSavant]

Wizard versatility is great but lacks damage (vs. sorc / sorcadin / sorlock) from what I've read.


Not sure who told you Wizards lack damage.

To make MOG's point much more emphatically:

Evokers don't lack damage. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567072-Evoker-Wizard-is-probably-the-best-low-level-and-high-level-blaster)

Here's a demonstration. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170)

Wizards can lack damage, but it's an overgeneralization to say that they do in general. It depends a great deal on how they're built and played. It's entirely possible to make a Wizard that deals damage competitive with Sorlocks and the like.

The key is that they get access to some very potent subclass abilities, as well as a superior spell list that boasts a lot of action economy tools that Sorcerers don't have. Things like Contingency, Find Familiar, Simulacrum, and Freezing Sphere simply aren't on the Sorcerer list.

[blinker_fluid]

Thanks folks for the replies!

I didn't know wizards were on par DPR with sorc / sorlock.

I was referencing these:
www-dndbeyond-com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/7108-5e-class-tier-list-a-bit-more-in-depth
www-reddit-com/r/DnD/comments/8zlrfe/how_much_damage_per_round_in_5e_by_class_per

Wizards are sounding better and better. Sounds like Wizard AoE damage is better but single target damage is a bit lower than sorc / sorlock. I'm concerned about the wizard's lower defense but I know a glass cannon is a glass cannon.

I considered the ranged melee (crossbow expert) but would rather have spells for additional problem solving and creative ways to help (CC, teleport, etc.).

Any other input is welcome. Great community here!

P.S. - Don't chainlock and tomelock get Find Familiar at level 3? Maybe I'm wrong which is often.

[LudicSavant]

Thanks folks for the replies!

I didn't know wizards were on par DPR with sorc / sorlock.

I was referencing these:
www-dndbeyond-com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/7108-5e-class-tier-list-a-bit-more-in-depth
www-reddit-com/r/DnD/comments/8zlrfe/how_much_damage_per_round_in_5e_by_class_per

Wizards are sounding better and better. Sounds like Wizard AoE damage is better but single target damage is a bit lower than sorc / sorlock. I'm concerned about the wizard's lower defense but I know a glass cannon is a glass cannon.

I considered the ranged melee (crossbow expert) but would rather have spells for additional problem solving and creative ways to help (CC, teleport, etc.).

Any other input is welcome. Great community here!

P.S. - Don't chainlock and tomelock get Find Familiar at level 3? Maybe I'm wrong which is often.

NP!

In the future I would advise being wary of drawing conclusions from threads that... how do I put this... try to treat an entire class like a single character?

Basically: two characters of the same class can be very different from each other.

[Keravath]

I'd be tempted by something like a hexblade warlock 1-3/evoker wizard X which gives you armor/shield/weapons additional spells and spell slots. Take hexblade to level 2 for agonizing blast, a second short rest spell slot and another invocation. A bit MAD but you have the stats for it. Not quite as much single target DPS as the sorlock but has more spell flexibility and better defense.

Probably warlock 1 -> Wizard 2-6 then decide if you want more hexblade. A single level hexblade dip is similar to the single level cleric dip that a lot of wizards take.

Another option would be variant human gloomstalker ranger 5/ rogue X for a ranged damage option that is good in the dark.

[bid]

Probably warlock 1 -> Wizard 2-6 then decide if you want more hexblade. A single level hexblade dip is similar to the single level cleric dip that a lot of wizards take.
Pretty much

Half-elf Str10 Dex16 Con16 Int18 Wis12 Cha18, but I would delay hexlock for RP reasons. If all players are newish, you have to show them the roleplay side too. Starting wizard and getting a blade patron makes a better story.

[LudicSavant]

Eldritch Blast isn't all that great for a Hexvoker. It won't be Int-based (since spells you learn are tied to one of your classes), won't benefit from Potent Cantrip (since it's not save-based) or Empowered Evocation (since it's not a Wizard spell), and it'll delay your precious casting progression to get Invocations for it.

Then again I guess you have stellar rolls, so maybe you can make it work. *Shrug*

[FabulousFizban]

straight controller wizard

[Socratov]

Ok, first a disclaimer of sorts: nobody can force you to play 'X' or fill a certain spot on the team, this is not Shadowrun, all classes can, up to a certain point do or complement roles fine.

However, you asked and I will deliver. While Wizard will solve most situations I notice a certain deficiency of solutions for traps, locks and ranged power. I'd suggest you take a rogue, preferably thief, arcane trickster or mastermind. max dex, get int next and third con/cha. With the overwhelming frontliners in the party and your ability to hide you should be fine in terms of survivability. Als you and he bard might get ALL the knowledges and skills so you have that covered. next go for an archery build and snipe away. More than enough guides detail how to snipe effectively with nice damage.

Now for the archetypes, thief has the option of better acrobatics, more uses for actions, etc. Just a great archetype overall in terms of action economy (the economy that actually matters, mind you), maybe get a bit of warlock in there for the pact, the boon and Eldritch Blast. Second option is Arcane trickster because if you can't find ways to entertain yourself with Mage Hand with all the boosts you are being given you are not even trying, this will, with potions, also make sure the front line stays where it is and upright. Third is mastermind. Now this is not a very powerful archetype in terms of damage, but being able to move your party around makes you, the bard and the cleric the ultimate puppet master team of tactical warfare. Also, making sure your wall of heavily armoured meat is right between whatever is trying to do your head in and you is generally a good idea.

So, in short, go rogue (heh) and join the party

[Man_Over_Game]

I wouldn't worry too much about single target damage, to be honest. Paladins and Fighters, even when not explicitly aiming for damage, still do a ridiculous amount without having to try hard.

What your team lacks, more than anything, is Area of Effect damage. Right now, there's only a few sources I could realistically see with this team:


Life Cleric: Spirit Guardian.
Bard: Shatter
Ancient Paladin: His bonus spell list (which puts put a lot of competition for his limited spell slots)


If you like the idea of a Warlock/Sorcerer for the damage emphasis, consider something like Draconic Sorcerer. I'd still suggest Wizard for the Intelligence focus (as it's what your team lacks most), but you seem pretty passionate about including Sorcerer and Warlock levels, and the Draconic Sorcerer/Fiend Warlock are both Area of Effect specialists (as is the Evocation Wizard).

[Fable Wright]

So you want versatility and raw offense, and your group doesn't have a Wizard.

Sleep is insane "damage", and going evoker is super solid.
Rituals are incredibly versatile, especially Find Familiar.
Forest Gnome gets you 20 int at level 1 and the insane utility of speaking with bats, rats, and spiders.

[blinker_fluid]

Just wanted to give an update and say thanks to everyone.

We've played two sessions so far and are still level 1. The druid (my wife) went Urchin and has high dex; she'll take care of the traps and locks.

I went Forest Gnome wizard due to the recommendations. Choosing skills was hard. I'm sitting at 20 Int at level 1 which is nice.

Being stuck with 2 spell slots is annoying but I know will improve over time. My owl familiar (Dr. Who) has been very useful for scouting. However, 10 gp was all the money I had.

Evocation as my arcane tradition is sensible. With four front liners, chances are they'll engage before me and I'd rather not melt them.

Evoker also seems fun but diviner is compelling as well.

Side note: Due to my backstory, I was transformed into a gnome and had my memory wiped. Around level 5, I'll probably switch (revert) to another race and have my memory (class) restored. I may consider multi-classing or even switching classes if I'm not enjoying wizard.

Thank you all again for the expert advice and have an excellent weekend!