Energy Drain/Negative levels for RHD

[ByOdin'sBeard]

1 question, can I (assuming the campaign leads to such a junction) have my Racial Hit Dice drained through any of energy drain/enervation?

Say I'm a level 1 fighter, with 2 LA, and 6 RHD; My ECL would be 9, but could I drain (this permanently lose) those 6 RHD through either of those means?

[PhantasyPen]

Yes, but you need to remember that level drain removes the most recent levels first, so you need to lose at least 2 levels before it starts draining RHD.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Yes, but you need to remember that level drain removes the most recent levels first, so you need to lose at least 2 levels before it starts draining RHD.

Okay, so assuming this is an acquired template the RHD would go first correct?

Regardless of that, if I later gain enough experience to level up again, am I able to take class levels regularly, or would it simply add my RHD back again?

[MisterKaws]

It is... questionable. I know you're the DM on your table, so I recommend you to reconsider that. We had a similar discussion with another DM recently, and you might want to check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591219-Gloura-as-a-pc&p=23997295&viewfull=1#post23997295) to understand why it's such a bad idea. If you want to give your players certain abilities without restricting them too much, you could either look into making custom grafts or just homebrew a race yourself.

Now, onto the custom grafts thing: the rules for 3.5 grafts are wonky, but the rules for 3.0 grafts were pretty clear: they were just normal items with the 'no body slot' modifier added in, for a 2x price. You can easily give players shapeshifting, buffing or natural weapons via X/day spells granted by a custom graft, and since you're the DM, you can change their price a bit if you think they're too weak or too strong.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Seconding to check with your DM. Replacing drained RHD with class levels is something that is very abusable, and RAW is 100% one way or the other...

I am the DM at the table, there isn't a situation that this has become a problem yet, I'm just wondering ahead of time, and a player asked if this method would work for RHD. I only want to know if it works by RAW, and i havent found anything as of yet?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

It is... questionable. I know you're the DM on your table, so I recommend you to reconsider that. We had a similar discussion with another DM recently, and you might want to check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591219-Gloura-as-a-pc&p=23997295&viewfull=1#post23997295) to understand why it's such a bad idea. If you want to give your players certain abilities without restricting them too much, you could either look into making custom grafts or just homebrew a race yourself.

Now, onto the custom grafts thing: the rules for 3.5 grafts are wonky, but the rules for 3.0 grafts were pretty clear: they were just normal items with the 'no body slot' modifier added in, for a 2x price. You can easily give players shapeshifting, buffing or natural weapons via X/day spells granted by a custom graft, and since you're the DM, you can change their price a bit if you think they're too weak or too strong.

I love implementing grafts, but have always used 3.0 rules, I hated 3.5s limitations with them.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Just to be clear, I am definitely not allowing the elimination of rhd, just wanting to know if there's no applicable by raw standards.

[Venger]

Yes. This is a well-known optimization trick known as doing the wight thing (usually the easiest way of losing a bunch of hd quickly) and will definitely let you play your werebear more quickly. There's no question of this working by raw, but as said upthread, it's generally inadvisable in actual play.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Yes. This is a well-known optimization trick known as doing the wight thing (usually the easiest way of losing a bunch of hd quickly) and will definitely let you play your werebear more quickly. There's no question of this working by raw, but as said upthread, it's generally inadvisable in actual play.

This was in the interest of a Troll, actually. A player was wondering if it's possible to shred down RHD so he could progress him into class levels waaaaay earlier.

[MisterKaws]

This was in the interest of a Troll, actually. A player was wondering if it's possible to shred down RHD so he could progress him into class levels waaaaay earlier.

It's more advisable to cut down his Level Adjustment, because creatures with high Strength and regeneration are always underpowered for the presented LA.

They used to think melee is the strongest thing ever, and infinite hp breaks the game. Except magic is better at doing melee and having infinite hp than the brute races.

[ShurikVch]

1 question, can I (assuming the campaign leads to such a junction) have my Racial Hit Dice drained through any of energy drain/enervation?

Say I'm a level 1 fighter, with 2 LA, and 6 RHD; My ECL would be 9, but could I drain (this permanently lose) those 6 RHD through either of those means?AFAIK: yes, you can lose racial HD that way.
But, when you get enough XP to level up, you will get your racial HD back:
A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class.

The only way to get rid of racial HD once and for all - is to die; then, either Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) (but repeated usage pose a threat of sudden Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut) appearance), or application of Petitioner (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#petitioners) template (2 Outsider HD is way better than 6 Giant HD)

[ByOdin'sBeard]

AFAIK: yes, you can lose racial HD that way.
But, when you get enough XP to level up, you will get your racial HD back:

The only way to get rid of racial HD once and for all - is to die; then, either Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) (but repeated usage pose a threat of sudden Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut) appearance), or application of Petitioner (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#petitioners) template (2 Outsider HD is way better than 6 Giant HD)

This will work! As long as I know that he isn't able to strip the RHD, and take class levels as normal, that's awesome. If he truly wants a Troll (why?) He can wait for another campaign, or if he really wants, at least level 12

[Remuko]

This will work! As long as I know that he isn't able to strip the RHD, and take class levels as normal, that's awesome. If he truly wants a Troll (why?) He can wait for another campaign, or if he really wants, at least level 12

This reply looks like you already had the answer you wanted to hear in mind before coming in here. Multiple people told you one thing and the second a single person said something else you celebrated. Looks like you just wanted justification, not actual RAW. Also afaik what that person quoted is about taking the savage progression monster classes, and there's no RAW reason it would apply in any case outside of that very specific one.

[ShurikVch]

This reply looks like you already had the answer you wanted to hear in mind before coming in here. Multiple people told you one thing and the second a single person said something else you celebrated. Looks like you just wanted justification, not actual RAW. Also afaik what that person quoted is about taking the savage progression monster classes, and there's no RAW reason it would apply in any case outside of that very specific one.Yes, it's from the Savage Species; but Savage Species is primary source for playing monstrous characters (even have Troll class); and Libris Mortis have very similar RAW for its own monstrous classes - so 3.5 rules shift didn't affected it

And about the "Multiple people" - actually, there were just two of them (and neither one cited any RAW)

[ByOdin'sBeard]

This reply looks like you already had the answer you wanted to hear in mind before coming in here. Multiple people told you one thing and the second a single person said something else you celebrated. Looks like you just wanted justification, not actual RAW. Also afaik what that person quoted is about taking the savage progression monster classes, and there's no RAW reason it would apply in any case outside of that very specific one.

What are you on about? He said it's possible, just like the 2 previous answers did, which I acknowledged, as those 2 have been following my series of posts about RHD on monster classes for the past 3 days; and he answered the 2nd question that I asked, which is "when they gain enough experience to level up, do they gain RHD again?".

They answered exactly what I needed to know, as per the savage progression table. I'm confused on what your argument is?

The only thing the second guy that I "celebrated" added was the answer to my second question, which had yet to be answered.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

As far as I know, there isn't any RAW on having to retake drained levels, but I'm definitely not allowing him to shred 6 RHD, and progress into player classes after.

This ain't France, and that much cheese at the table isnt allowed, he just gave me the best solution for that particular problem. Thanks for the input though?

[MisterKaws]

As far as I know, there isn't any RAW on having to retake drained levels, but I'm definitely not allowing him to shred 6 RHD, and progress into player classes after.

This ain't France, and that much cheese at the table isnt allowed, he just gave me the best solution for that particular problem. Thanks for the input though?

As I said now, you could shred his LA instead and let him play. The LA-assignment thread put Troll as a +1 LA race instead of +5. As long as you respect RHD, a Troll is, indeed, a very balanced class at a starting ECL of 7.

You don't necessarily have to veto everything. As long as you balance it out it won't make the game any less fun.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

As I said now, you could shred his LA instead and let him play. The LA-assignment thread put Troll as a +1 LA race instead of +5. As long as you respect RHD, a Troll is, indeed, a very balanced class at a starting ECL of 7.

You don't necessarily have to veto everything. As long as you balance it out it won't make the game any less fun.

I had read that yes, and that works completely; I just don't want him trying to do a work-around with the RHD mid-campaign, and I'm stuck trying to figure out a way to say no without throwing books. We discussed the ECL 7 version, and he is very much okay with waiting until level 8 to play his Troll!

Also, thanks for all the input on all of the threads I've put up, you've given me the most sound conclusions for like 3 consecutive days here.

[ShurikVch]

Question: what, exactly, he want to get from playing a Troll?
Earlier access to Regeneration? Tree Troll (Dragon #299) is 2 HD and LA +3 (but Small-sized).
Playing a Large Giant? "Standard" Half-Ogre is LA +2 (or even +1) and have no racial HD.
Just playing "a Troll"? Warcraft the RPG have 4 different kinds of Trolls ranging from 1 HD and LA +1 (but this one is Medium-sized) to 4 HD and LA +4; Trolls in Warcraft have no Regeneration - just Fast Healing (also, if Large/4/+4 is OK, then it's also numbers for Moss Troll from Kingdoms of Kalamar and Cave Troll from the Tome of Horrors; Ice Troll from ToH is 2 HD and LA +4, but not too strong, and got Vulnerability to Slashing Weapons - losing limbs on critical hits)
All together at once?

[MisterKaws]

I had read that yes, and that works completely; I just don't want him trying to do a work-around with the RHD mid-campaign, and I'm stuck trying to figure out a way to say no without throwing books. We discussed the ECL 7 version, and he is very much okay with waiting until level 8 to play his Troll!

Also, thanks for all the input on all of the threads I've put up, you've given me the most sound conclusions for like 3 consecutive days here.

You're the DM. Just you letting him play Troll is already pretty liberal as far as DMs go. If he says "hey I'm gonna level drain myself", you say "no, shut up". And if he does get level drained by accident, just house-rule that you need to regain lost RHD before proceeding to level classes.

Also if the class is RHD 6 LA +1 you can play classless at level 7.

[Anthrowhale]

Related, there are the savage progressions (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) template classes which explicitly allow you to advance in other classes before completing the template.