Equipment and Shapechange

[Zuras]

When you shapechange or true polymorph into a creature, is there any explicit guidance about whether you get the equipment specified in the creature’s stat block?

Wondering because I just picked up Shapechange on a Tier 4 PC, and obviously turning into a Storm Giant is much worse than turning into a Beholder if they both show up naked.

When I run Dragons or Couatl that use the change shape feature, I just have the equipment appear, but now I’m wondering if there is a RAW or at least Sage advice guidance on how this should work (I looked, but google failed me).

[PhantomSoul]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/18/if-i-use-true-polymorph-can-i-gain-equipment/


No transformation spell gives you gear unless the spell's description says it does.

[Man_Over_Game]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/18/if-i-use-true-polymorph-can-i-gain-equipment/

I counter this with the fact that "The target's statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." The statistics of the creature are based on it wearing its default gear. You can't have both the creature's statistics AND be missing any gear.

You basically have to resort to 1 of 3 choices:

Reverse engineer the creature's natural stats by hypothesizing the stats of its equipment, comparing that equipment with similar creatures, and removing those stats. This is a lot of work, but the most accurate way of getting a "naked" creature.
The creature keeps all of his stats and all of his features, but is naked. Give it gear, and now you're strictly stronger than the normal creature that you are when it's supposed to be wearing gear.
You polymorph into the creature's default form, including gear.


They chose to not allow Bullet #3 to avoid item scumming (Polymorph into a Githyanki, get a magical sword), but I'm not sure which of the two remaining bullets they recommend for the players to use.

[PhantomSoul]

I counter this with the fact that "The target's statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." The statistics of the creature are based on it wearing its default gear. You can't have both the creature's statistics AND be missing any gear.

Quite agreed and maybe it's just good to have wiggle room for extreme cases (which doesn't show up before level 9 spells anyhow offhand, unless maybe some beasts actually have equipment?), but it's what popped up for Sage Advice popped up (and it does make sense as a possibility, but it's just more hassle to figure out and likely not to be worth that hassle anyway, following your option 1).

[nickl_2000]

Further confusion from shapechage/polymorph/wildshaping. Let me give you the best possible answer.

Ask your DM, and whatever the DM says is the ruling that is how it will work at your table.

[Zuras]

Yeah, how then do you square the circle of having a creature’s stats without its equipment?

Not allowing equipment does seem like the simpler abuse avoiding answer, but it also makes creatures that don’t wear pants far superior to any garmet-wearing creatures of similar CR.

Also, do we just assume metallic dragons and couatl just have clothing and equipment hanging around in hammerspace for their preferred forms? If not, the PCs should be getting an unexpected peep show every time they’re around a transforming dragon or Couatl, which is definitely not the way dragon transformations were described in Storm King’s Thunder or ToA.

[Zuras]

Further confusion from shapechage/polymorph/wildshaping. Let me give you the best possible answer.

Ask your DM, and whatever the DM says is the ruling that is how it will work at your table.

Well yeah, but in AL I’d like to be able to point to an actual rule plus coherent argument.

Given how Tier 4 AL mods play though, any form without a set of legendary resistances is usually a waste of your 9th level spell, IME.

[nickl_2000]

Well yeah, but in AL I’d like to be able to point to an actual rule plus coherent argument.

Given how Tier 4 AL mods play though, any form without a set of legendary resistances is usually a waste of your 9th level spell, IME.

I didn't see anything from AL in the original post. That does make a difference. Does AL have a league ruling on this one?

[Zuras]

I didn't see anything from AL in the original post. That does make a difference. Does AL have a league ruling on this one?

There are no AL specific rulings in the FAQ regarding True Polymorph except that it ends at the end of a session.

[darknite]

One thing to remember about True Polymorph is that you may lose your membership to a certain class necessary to attune to certain items (ie Staff of the Magi, etc) because you are now, for all intents and purposes, a dragon. Certain creatures that you can Shapechange into, like an Ancient Brass Dragon, may have similar capabilities (like poly'ing into another form) that may have similar effects.

[BloodOgre]

Shapechange specifically says that the creature you change to can retain your own equipment, but equipment does not resize and the DM determines if it is appropriate for the creature to use such equipment. Also, it can only use your equipment if it is of appropriate size for the creature you change to. It also states you must have seen the creature previously. And you transform into an average creature, one without class levels or the Spellcasting trait.

True Polymorph says you can transform a creature into another creature or a single object or an object into a creature or another object. That tells me if you true polymorph yourself, or another creature, into a storm giant, then it is a naked storm giant. And the CR of a naked storm giant is less than that of an armed storm giant, so as long long as the creature targeted by true polymorph is greater than or equal to that of a storm giant, it is certainly greater than that of a naked storm giant :smallsmile:, so no harm no foul.

Normal Polymorph and wild shape both specify that a creature can only be changed into a beast, which rules out giants, dragons, and most of MM, VGtM, & MtoF.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that according to WotC, Monster abilities can be different that PC abilities or spells of the same name. Just because some monsters have an ability that lets them shapechange into another creature with that creatures equipment does NOT mean a PC ability, feat, spell, or spell-like ability acts the same way.
Also True polymorph specifically states that you cannot change a creature into a magic object, so even if your DM were to allow you to polymorph into a giant with it's equipment, none of that equipment would be magical, and that equipment would disappear when true polymorph ended. /EDIT

[Rukelnikov]

I counter this with the fact that "The target's statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." The statistics of the creature are based on it wearing its default gear. You can't have both the creature's statistics AND be missing any gear.

I agree until here, but I'm not sure I get what comes next


You basically have to resort to 1 of 3 choices:
Reverse engineer the creature's natural stats by hypothesizing the stats of its equipment, comparing that equipment with similar creatures, and removing those stats. This is a lot of work, but the most accurate way of getting a "naked" creature.

I don't think I'm following, in the case of the Storm Giant for instance, It would lose its Scale Mail, every creature has an AC of 10 + Dex by default, if that's not the case its an exception, we don't need to guess those because they appear in the stats of the creatures.

It would also lose its greatsword, again, nothing to guess, it can't make greatsword attacks if it doesn't have a greatsword equipped. Same for rocks.

There's no reverse engeneering involved, its just removing unusable features.


The creature keeps all of his stats and all of his features, but is naked. Give it gear, and now you're strictly stronger than the normal creature that you are when it's supposed to be wearing gear.

I don't get what you mean by this, the naked Storm Giant can make greatsword attacks without a greatsword :smallconfused:??


You polymorph into the creature's default form, including gear.

They chose to not allow Bullet #3 to avoid item scumming (Polymorph into a Githyanki, get a magical sword), but I'm not sure which of the two remaining bullets they recommend for the players to use.

IMO allowing gear to appear has mechanical, setting, and (subjectively) fluff issues. Not only can you get you the items of a particular enemy, but you can combine them, since you decide whether your gear melds into your new form, falls to the ground or is equiped by your new form, you could turn into a Githyanki as you said, and then into any other medium sized creature with arms and choose for the Silver Sword to be equipped by that form, and that's even if we ban passing items arround (which I guess is what item scumming means??).

That's just the mechanical problem, the setting problem is what bothers me the most, is an elf transforms into a human, does it appear with weapons? Does the gear that appear depend on if I turn into a Guard, a Veteran, or a Champion?

By the way what's stopping me from turning into a Storm Giant Champion? And what happens if I turn into a Noble? Does it come with a pedigree scroll from a non-existant line? Does it create a line? Am I not a Noble?

Merging race and class for monsters is what makes True Polymorph an immersion breaking spell, since for humanoids there are distinctions and for most monsters there aren't.

[Man_Over_Game]

I agree until here, but I'm not sure I get what comes next



I don't think I'm following, in the case of the Storm Giant for instance, It would lose its Scale Mail, every creature has an AC of 10 + Dex by default, if that's not the case its an exception, we don't need to guess those because they appear in the stats of the creatures.

It would also lose its greatsword, again, nothing to guess, it can't make greatsword attacks if it doesn't have a greatsword equipped. Same for rocks.

There's no reverse engeneering involved, its just removing unusable features.




That might make sense for some creatures, but consider, for example, many of the Githyanki. They have generic weapons in their statblock, but they deal extra Psychic damage with them. You might assume that this was a feature of the weapons, but comparing them to other Githyanki shows that it's consistent with ALL of their weapon attacks, including those who aren't using magical weapons. Githyanki happen to deal extra psychic damage as a natural ability, but it isn't included AS a natural ability. So does a Polymorphed Githyanki get that hidden feature, or does it not?

There are exceptions to the normal MM rules of creating a creature when it comes to things like dealing damage (some demons deal extra damage with their weapon attacks, but it's generally separate from the weapons themselves, just like Githyanki) or armor calculations. This wouldn't be a problem, except that the statblock doesn't indicate what's an anomaly and what's not.

[Rukelnikov]

That might make sense for some creatures, but consider, for example, many of the Githyanki. They have generic weapons in their statblock, but they deal extra Psychic damage with them. You might assume that this was a feature of the weapons, but comparing them to other Githyanki shows that it's consistent with ALL of their weapon attacks, including those who aren't using magical weapons. Githyanki happen to deal extra psychic damage as a natural ability, but it isn't included AS a natural ability. So does a Polymorphed Githyanki get that hidden feature, or does it not?

There are exceptions to the normal MM rules of creating a creature when it comes to things like dealing damage (some demons deal extra damage with their weapon attacks, but it's generally separate from the weapons themselves, just like Githyanki) or armor calculations. This wouldn't be a problem, except that the statblock doesn't indicate what's an anomaly and what's not.

Yeah, some do list that as powers (all angels), but in the case of the Githyanki its true those don't appear in the stat block.

Even then I don't consider equipment as part of a creature, and I think there are more inconsistencies by Polymorph creating equipment than with it not.

[Zuras]

I agree until here, but I'm not sure I get what comes next



I don't think I'm following, in the case of the Storm Giant for instance, It would lose its Scale Mail, every creature has an AC of 10 + Dex by default, if that's not the case its an exception, we don't need to guess those because they appear in the stats of the creatures.

It would also lose its greatsword, again, nothing to guess, it can't make greatsword attacks if it doesn't have a greatsword equipped. Same for rocks.

There's no reverse engeneering involved, its just removing unusable features.



I don't get what you mean by this, the naked Storm Giant can make greatsword attacks without a greatsword :smallconfused:??



IMO allowing gear to appear has mechanical, setting, and (subjectively) fluff issues. Not only can you get you the items of a particular enemy, but you can combine them, since you decide whether your gear melds into your new form, falls to the ground or is equiped by your new form, you could turn into a Githyanki as you said, and then into any other medium sized creature with arms and choose for the Silver Sword to be equipped by that form, and that's even if we ban passing items arround (which I guess is what item scumming means??).

That's just the mechanical problem, the setting problem is what bothers me the most, is an elf transforms into a human, does it appear with weapons? Does the gear that appear depend on if I turn into a Guard, a Veteran, or a Champion?

By the way what's stopping me from turning into a Storm Giant Champion? And what happens if I turn into a Noble? Does it come with a pedigree scroll from a non-existant line? Does it create a line? Am I not a Noble?

Merging race and class for monsters is what makes True Polymorph an immersion breaking spell, since for humanoids there are distinctions and for most monsters there aren't.


It’s a 9th level spell. There is nothing unworkable, game-wise, with shapechanging simply calling up objects ex nihilo as appropriate. The genie in Aladdin doesn’t conjure up his sunglasses separately when doing his Jack Nicholson impression, or leave cigar butts behind as Groucho Marx. There’s no reason a 9th level spell can’t conjure up iconic gear associated with a creature.

If you go that way, obviously, any conjured gear disappears when you change shape again, as it was actually made of shadowstuff or dream matter pulled from wherever you get the extra ton of mass you need to become a Storm Giant in the first place.

The spell as written is incompatible with the Sage Advice guidance, since you immediately face the prospect of needing to invent a lot of things that aren’t on the stat block if you take away their iconic equipment.

Are Storm Giants only proficient with Swords, or can they rip up a tree and use it as a club? What about a giant-sized flail? So many things can happen I don’t blame them for just ignoring the issue and saying DM discretion, but it sounds like the Sage Advice is just enough detail to raise more issues.

It would have been better if they said “if the DM rules weapons/equipment appear as part of a shape change spell, they would go away when a new form is assumed”.

[Rukelnikov]

It’s a 9th level spell. There is nothing unworkable, game-wise, with shapechanging simply calling up objects ex nihilo as appropriate. The genie in Aladdin doesn’t conjure up his sunglasses separately when doing his Jack Nicholson impression, or leave cigar butts behind as Groucho Marx. There’s no reason a 9th level spell can’t conjure up iconic gear associated with a creature.

If you go that way, obviously, any conjured gear disappears when you change shape again, as it was actually made of shadowstuff or dream matter pulled from wherever you get the extra ton of mass you need to become a Storm Giant in the first place.

The spell as written is incompatible with the Sage Advice guidance, since you immediately face the prospect of needing to invent a lot of things that aren’t on the stat block if you take away their iconic equipment.

Are Storm Giants only proficient with Swords, or can they rip up a tree and use it as a club? What about a giant-sized flail? So many things can happen I don’t blame them for just ignoring the issue and saying DM discretion, but it sounds like the Sage Advice is just enough detail to raise more issues.

It would have been better if they said “if the DM rules weapons/equipment appear as part of a shape change spell, they would go away when a new form is assumed”.

My problem with the spell creating gear, is that gear is based on archetype for humanoids. Since I can turn into a Cultist, a Rogue, a Guard, and have appropriate stuff, can I turn into a King? Would it come with a scepter and crown? And then, can I turn into a Veteran or artisan of another race?

Most of those would be met with "No because its not in the MM", and that completely breaks immersion for me, "isn't it weird I can only turn into combat related things?", "And why so much variety for humanoid races, but everyone turns into generic Satyrs and Pixies?

Having everyone appear naked but with varying stats doesn't have this problem, since the difference between a Veteran and a Guard is the personal prowess, and that is the basis of the spell, it can only change creatures into others of comparable or lesser prowess. This would explain someone not being able to turn into a Champion Storm Giant.

[Tanarii]

My problem with the spell creating gear, is that gear is based on archetype for humanoids. Since I can turn into a Cultist, a Rogue, a Guard, and have appropriate stuff, can I turn into a King? Would it come with a scepter and crown? And then, can I turn into a Veteran or artisan of another race?NPCs aren't average members of their race.

[Zuras]

NPCs aren't average members of their race.

The spell says nothing about race, just “an average example of that creature”.

Since NPCs are creatures, no reason you can’t become an archmage. You won’t be able to cast any spells, but you would have a good arcana skill.

As to why this should work, beyond “Magic”, maybe you’re tying into Jungian archetypes or platonic ideals, rather than replicating a creature via instantaneous cloning at the cellular level.

[PhantomSoul]

The spell says nothing about race, just “an average example of that creature”.

Since NPCs are creatures, no reason you can’t become an archmage. You won’t be able to cast any spells, but you would have a good arcana skill.

As to why this should work, beyond “Magic”, maybe you’re tying into Jungian archetypes or platonic ideals, rather than replicating a creature via instantaneous cloning at the cellular level.

But if "creature" is effectively "individual", then "average example of that creature" is effectively "exactly that individual"... :)

[Chronos]

But some creatures have natural armor. They might still choose to wear manufactured armor anyway, if their natural armor isn't all that great, or their manufactured armor is really nice. Their stat blocks (for when they're wearing armor) will show the armor's AC, but you can't tell if there's some other, not-quite-as-good armor underneath that.

And sure, why not turn into a king, complete with scepter and crown? You'd probably want to add a clause to the spell (in addition to the clause about equipment disappearing when the spell ends) that it also disappears if you take it off and leave it unattended for more than a round, or some such. Also toss in that the equipment isn't magical, and you'd avoid most of the issues.

Alternately, if we're not houseruling the spell: During downtime, find some smith willing and able to make giant-sized armor (or steal some from an existing giant, or whatever). Turn into a giant, and put the armor on. Then turn back into your natural form, and let the giant equipment merge into your form. Now, the next time you turn into a giant, you can un-merge the giant equipment, and be wearing it right away.

[Tanarii]

Since NPCs are creatures,
Yes, but not average one. It doesn't say "choose a stat block, or become an average version of that stat block". And different creature != different stat block.

For example if you choose to become a Gnoll or a Drow, the DM shouldn't let you browse through MotF and become a Drow Matron Mother or Gnoll Hand of Yenaghou (or whatever they're respecively called).