Monk's don't get Uncanny Dodge? That's kinda weird

[BlueWitch]

Just realized this too.

Aren't Monk's supposed to be the badass, kung-fu action star?

The "Surrounded by mooks, but still beat them all" trope is a classic! (We've seen Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Donnie Yen do it! And even Western martial arts action stars!)

So what the heck were they thinking not giving Monk Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge?

You don't think that's a little odd? I really think they should have it.

If I were to re-write the class they could at least spend Ki Pool for it.
(and level 20 should have the Critical Multiplier increased to x3)

[DEMON]

Dang it, Uncanny Dodge is exactly the thing Monks are lacking to become the ultimate superstar.

In all fairness, I think the devs genuinely believed they gave Monk's more than enough special abilities and didn't want to give another one(s), in fear of making it too OP... and that's all there is to it.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, I had never thought about it. I'd definitely let a player grab it at level 4 like a Rogue.


In all fairness, I think the devs genuinely believed they gave Monk's more than enough special abilities and didn't want to give another one(s), in fear of making it too OP... and that's all there is to it.

I wouldn't doubt it. Even after years of play, there are still players who insist Monks are OP even though though they so clearly aren't. Back when 3.0 was new, a lot of DMs had a hard ban on Monks because they got something new every level, which is - of course - ludicrous.

[Psyren]

VMC Barb if you really want it (interestingly, has no alignment requirement.) VMC Rogue gets both UD and IUD but they come really late.

Blind-Fight gets you most of the way there and can be grabbed as a ki power.

[Biggus]

Yeah, it always seemed weird to me that Barbarians get it but Monks don't, in fact it took me a while to get it to stick in my head that they don't, my brain just sort of assumed that they did.

It certainly wouildn't be overpowered to give it to them, or maybe let them trade it for one of their less useful class features.

[ngilop]

Yes, it is weird. just like how Fighter's not getting it is strange and how the fighter got the big shaft because I guess full base attack and heavy armor was too powerful to give a single class feature to, for fear of breaking the class.

[RNightstalker]

Yes, it is weird. just like how Fighter's not getting it is strange and how the fighter got the big shaft because I guess full base attack and heavy armor was too powerful to give a single class feature to, for fear of breaking the class.

Interesting point that you make, never noticed that before until now.

[Karl Aegis]

In the strange and hostile wilderness of a gated community, danger can strike at any moment.

[Kurald Galain]

Monk's don't get Uncanny Dodge? That's kinda... uncanny. Yeaaaah! :smallcool:

[Rynjin]

It makes sense from a thematic perspective for them not to get it.

Uncanny Dodge is given to classes that operate off instinct: Barbarian, Rogue, and Ranger. It is reacting to being ambushed to lessen the effects, dodging at the last second, etc.

Monks are all about enlightenment and analysis, not instinct. They don't mitigate the effects of ambushes, they just don't get ambushed at all (high Wis, high Perception).

[Remuko]

It makes sense from a thematic perspective for them not to get it.

Uncanny Dodge is given to classes that operate off instinct: Barbarian, Rogue, and Ranger. It is reacting to being ambushed to lessen the effects, dodging at the last second, etc.

Monks are all about enlightenment and analysis, not instinct. They don't mitigate the effects of ambushes, they just don't get ambushed at all (high Wis, high Perception).

Tell that to Goku in Dragon Ball Super :yuk: But no, seriously, empty mind, aka fighting on instinct is a real martial arts thing, so its 100% on flavor for monks.

[Rynjin]

Tell that to Goku in Dragon Ball Super :yuk: But no, seriously, empty mind, aka fighting on instinct is a real martial arts thing, so its 100% on flavor for monks.

Not really the same thing, since what that really amounts to is muscle memory.

[heavyfuel]

Uncanny Dodge is given to classes that operate off instinct: Barbarian, Rogue, and Ranger.

Uhhh, Rangers don't get Uncanny Dodge...

[Rynjin]

I'm sure there's some archetype or another that does.

[emeraldstreak]

It's even simpler. Uncanny dodge is given to the heir of the Thief class, and to Conan(who is part thief)'s class.

[Celestia]

Tell that to Goku in Dragon Ball Super :yuk: But no, seriously, empty mind, aka fighting on instinct is a real martial arts thing, so its 100% on flavor for monks.
Martial artists, yes, but not monks. D&D has a very particular image for what a "monk" is, which leads to numerous arbitrary decisions. It's the same reason why monks are bizarrely restricted to lawful alignments. As such, uncanny dodge does not fit the monk flavor that they created. Is this dumb? Absolutely. But this is a discussion of what monks are, not what they ought to be.

[Morty_Jhones]

Monks don't get uncanny dodge because quite simply they don't need it.

uncanny dodge only really helps you if you have a love wis/perception and so are ambushed or have been attacked by an invisible attacker

1.

Monks run of WIS and have mostly awareness and movement skill sets so you will probably not be ambushed and if you do then you have the tumble and jump skills to get out of the way.

2
Take Blind Fight like everyone else.
Take one of the nonstandard fighting stiles from UA



moving and striking is the monks game.. think the turtle not the panda form the KFP films.

[MisterKaws]

I'm sure there's some archetype or another that does.

Literally none in 3.5.

[ayvango]

Just take the Planar Touchstone feat. Fate domain is your choice.

[BlueWitch]

Literally none in 3.5.

Wow, that's honestly ridiculous. I guess the game developers just thought the Monk already had too much, but left out something important.

It kinda reminds me of that clip from Spongebob, where Squidward wants a Krabby Patty so badly, he eats from the garbage.
Then he proceeds to eat everything BUT the patty. (xD)

Fast forward to Pathfinder. They gave the Monk all these bells and whistles. But keeping his Dex when flanked? Naaaaaaah. lol

[liquidformat]

Just realized this too.

Aren't Monk's supposed to be the badass, kung-fu action star?

The "Surrounded by mooks, but still beat them all" trope is a classic! (We've seen Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Donnie Yen do it! And even Western martial arts action stars!)

So what the heck were they thinking not giving Monk Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge?

You don't think that's a little odd? I really think they should have it.

If I were to re-write the class they could at least spend Ki Pool for it.
(and level 20 should have the Critical Multiplier increased to x3)

Why are you hating on Bruce Lee, the godfather of the whole genre?!?


It makes sense from a thematic perspective for them not to get it.

Uncanny Dodge is given to classes that operate off instinct: Barbarian, Rogue, and Ranger. It is reacting to being ambushed to lessen the effects, dodging at the last second, etc.

Monks are all about enlightenment and analysis, not instinct. They don't mitigate the effects of ambushes, they just don't get ambushed at all (high Wis, high Perception).

Seriously? the whole idea behind martial arts, any martial arts, is you are trained to instinctually react, you are literally supposed to perform a move thousands of times until it becomes instinct... Uncanny Dodge actually makes more sense for monks than it does rogues or barbarians. If anything it doesn't make sense that Rogues have the ability.


Monks don't get uncanny dodge because quite simply they don't need it.

uncanny dodge only really helps you if you have a love wis/perception and so are ambushed or have been attacked by an invisible attacker

1.

Monks run of WIS and have mostly awareness and movement skill sets so you will probably not be ambushed and if you do then you have the tumble and jump skills to get out of the way.

2
Take Blind Fight like everyone else.
Take one of the nonstandard fighting stiles from UA



moving and striking is the monks game.. think the turtle not the panda form the KFP films.

Maybe you should actually read uncanny dodge before commenting, nothing you said has anything to do with uncanny dodge or how it functions for that matter you should read the skills, feats, and ACFs too. Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge have to do with not becoming flat footed or SA from flanking. Jumping or tumbling in no way help you avoid being flanked nor sneak attacked; blind fighting does help against invisible enemies but does nothing if they are still flanking you so your half right there...

[Requiem_Jeer]

Notably, they don't lose their wisdom bonus to AC when surprised. This is probably supposed to represent the thematic space that uncanny Dodge usually occupies. Sure they lose some AC when surprised, but not all of it.

That isn't to say that I endorse the Monk's design but I hope it provides a reasonable explanation as to why they didn't put uncanny Dodge in there.

[Rynjin]

Seriously? the whole idea behind martial arts, any martial arts, is you are trained to instinctually react, you are literally supposed to perform a move thousands of times until it becomes instinct... Uncanny Dodge actually makes more sense for monks than it does rogues or barbarians. If anything it doesn't make sense that Rogues have the ability.

Seriously.

"Instinct" is something semi-mystical in pop culture, and not the Monk kind of mystical. It's basically a nebulously defined Spider Sense in a lot of media, and not thematically appropriate for D&D's Monks.

[tiercel]

Seriously.

"Instinct" is something semi-mystical in pop culture, and not the Monk kind of mystical. It's basically a nebulously defined Spider Sense in a lot of media, and not thematically appropriate for D&D's Monks.

I don’t know; given that D&D’s monk roots seem pretty clear
https://i1.wp.com/beahealthygeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/patience_grasshopper.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uq0glR1pPUw/VqEUKKBA-eI/AAAAAAAASCw/r2tQOAZBsgY/s1600/droids.gif

In either case, “being one with everything” seems like a pretty good excuse for Spider Sense.

[Karl Aegis]

To be fair, I have never seen Obi Wan go to the Astral Plane and pop out somewhere else.

[Doctor Awkward]

It's when you thoroughly read the first line of the ability description-- "Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so"-- that you begin to realize Uncanny Dodge is the ability to see the future.

[liquidformat]

Seriously.

"Instinct" is something semi-mystical in pop culture, and not the Monk kind of mystical. It's basically a nebulously defined Spider Sense in a lot of media, and not thematically appropriate for D&D's Monks.

From reading of monks in phb I have always thought they were supposed to be representative of shaolin monks or the Buddhist monk order that sits in the snow in the Himalayas without freezing. In either case Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge seem like pretty straight forward abilities for them...

[Psyren]

Fast forward to Pathfinder. They gave the Monk all these bells and whistles. But keeping his Dex when flanked? Naaaaaaah. lol

Uh , you do keep your Dex to AC when flanked. All that actually happens is the attackers get a small (+2) bonus, and you're distracted enough to be sneak-attacked. They still have to hit you for the latter - and if a +2 was really going to make all the difference in you surviving, you probably shouldn't be in melee anyway.

[SirNibbles]

Dragon Magazine #310, page 45 has the Vigilant Monk ACF which takes away Still Mind and your 2nd and 6th level bonus feats and gives you Detect Chaos (as Paladin's Detect Evil), Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge (both as Barbarian).

Barbarian gets Uncanny at 2nd, and there are very few reasons to take more than 2 levels of Monk, so you're basically trading your 2nd level bonus feat for Uncanny Dodge.

__

Honestly I don't see why they couldn't get it instead of Still Mind at 3rd, since Still Mind is kinda trash.