What's the Littlest Dragon?

[Palanan]

I know that the wyrmling is the smallest size category of true dragons, but I’m looking for the smallest species in the broader family of dragon-related creatures.

The smallest I can think of is the pyrausta (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/pyrausta/), which is listed as Diminutive, so about a foot long. Is there anything smaller? I recall an old Dragon magazine cover showing a dragon with butterfly wings, apparently pollinating a flower, but I don’t know if this was ever updated to 3.5 or Pathfinder.

[MisterKaws]

Half-Dragon Mosquito.

Seriously, as long as you list Half-Dragons, you have a ton of options at Fine size.

[Maat Mons]

The "dragon with butterfly wings" would almost certainly be a faerie dragon. It's a classic D&D creature.

[Ravens_cry]

I know that the wyrmling is the smallest size category of true dragons, but I’m looking for the smallest species in the broader family of dragon-related creatures.

The smallest I can think of is the pyrausta (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/pyrausta/), which is listed as Diminutive, so about a foot long. Is there anything smaller? I recall an old Dragon magazine cover showing a dragon with butterfly wings, apparently pollinating a flower, but I don’t know if this was ever updated to 3.5 or Pathfinder.
It was (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-faerie/), but they're Tiny, the size of a Pseudodragon.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
The "dragon with butterfly wings" would almost certainly be a faerie dragon. It's a classic D&D creature.

Aha, thanks. Looks like Pathfinder has a version, although it’s Tiny, so even larger than the pyrausta.


Originally Posted by MisterKaws
…as long as you list Half-Dragons….

No half-anythings.

[Squire Doodad]

A shirt dragon that's been through the wash too many times!

[Palanan]

Folks, please don't turn this into a joke thread. I'm looking for the smallest kinds of dragons out there.

Right now the pyrausta is the smallest I can find, at Diminutive. Does anyone know of anything smaller? I'm open to all official content from Wizards and Pathfinder, and it only seems right and proper that I allow Dragon magazine as well.


.

[StevenC21]

What do you have against Half dragons?

They have the dragon type.

[HouseRules]

What do you have against Half dragons?

They have the dragon type.

Then the thread becomes a list of all Fine Sized Creatures.

[Particle_Man]

Slap the young template on the Pyrausta and you can knock it down to fine. Find a way to stop it aging (lots of Druid levels, perhaps?) and it will stay fine. Since fine is the smallest category, is that enough?

[Zaq]

Half-Dragon Mosquito.

Seriously, as long as you list Half-Dragons, you have a ton of options at Fine size.

Any living corporeal creature...

God, will that ever stop being comedy gold?

No.

[Segev]

There is a dragon in pathfinder that turns into a pen. I don’t think it’s as small as the one the OP has found, but it’s the smallest I have independently found, so at least it’s another very little dragon. Lexograph wyem or something like that, I think.



If you add half dragon to a swarm, does the whole swarm exhaust it’s breath weapon at once, or does each member get to use it once each day? (I believe the RAW answer is that the whole swarm gets one per day, not one each.)

[ShurikVch]

The smallest Dragons I'm aware of are:
Feeder from the Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised - that Diminutive Dragon masquerading as a dagger or knife; 6" to 10" long and less than 1 lbs.
Draconic Fingerling (The Shackled City Adventure Path) - it's a kuo-toa youngling half-black dragon; Diminutive Dragon (aquatic, swarm), looks like this (https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/fd4c70b8-8dd9-4058-996f-e9c0dfd1ef77/dq50rn-74723ddf-d99b-4260-8542-a231489a6111.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQz NzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZT BkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6 W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ZkNGM3MGI4LThkZDktNDA1OC05OT ZmLWU5YzBkZmQxZWY3N1wvZHE1MHJuLTc0NzIzZGRmLWQ5OWIt NDI2MC04NTQyLWEyMzE0ODlhNjExMS5qcGcifV1dLCJhdWQiOl sidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.FPGy6m18N No8ibAaE76q6Ps4zvJHEv8aOaabp9jU-eI). (I know, you said to avoid "halves", but it looks more like unique monster than simple "creature with a template")

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Segev
There is a dragon in pathfinder that turns into a pen.

Excellent catch, thanks. This is the calligraphy wyrm (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/wyrm-calligraphy/), which is Diminutive.


Originally Posted by ShurikVch
Feeder from the Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised - that Diminutive Dragon masquerading as a dagger or knife; 6" to 10" long and less than 1 lbs.

Also interesting, thanks. Not a source I have access to right now, but good to know about.

These are both really helpful, and much appreciated.

[Falontani]

Smallest I knew of was Spiretop Dragons from Towers of Sharn.

[DEMON]

Smallest I knew of was Spiretop Dragons from Towers of Sharn.

Wow, I never noticed Pseudodragon had a CG cousin in Sharn.

[MisterKaws]

Wow, I never noticed Pseudodragon had a CG cousin in Sharn.

Now look at the previous page.

[DEMON]

Now look at the previous page.

Are you pointing me to the disgusting abomination that by the name of Roach Thrall? Playable at LA+2, I might add...

[MisterKaws]

Are you pointing me to the disgusting abomination that by the name of Roach Thrall? Playable at LA+2, I might add...

Yes, that beautiful thing. Looks even cuter when BURNING IN THE DEEPEST PITS OF HELL.

[Efrate]

Didn't dragon or dungeon magazine do a series with hatchling dragons that had less HD than wyrmlings? Did they reduce size as well? That would be diminutive at best still I think.

[Thurbane]

Are you pointing me to the disgusting abomination that by the name of Roach Thrall? Playable at LA+2, I might add...

Roach Thrall (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/sharn_gallery/84601.jpg), Ripper (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/Cityscape_Gallery/101108.jpg)...who wore it better?

https://horrornews.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Mimic-poster.jpg

[MisterKaws]

Didn't dragon or dungeon magazine do a series with hatchling dragons that had less HD than wyrmlings? Did they reduce size as well? That would be diminutive at best still I think.

They did? I'm curious.

[Endarire]

Add compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) to stuff.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Efrate
Didn't dragon or dungeon magazine do a series with hatchling dragons that had less HD than wyrmlings? Did they reduce size as well? That would be diminutive at best still I think.

This would be great, but I can’t find them in the Dragondex (https://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/monsters.html). Not as familiar with Dungeon content, and I’d think Dragon would be the more likely source for something like this.

[ShurikVch]

Didn't dragon or dungeon magazine do a series with hatchling dragons that had less HD than wyrmlings? Did they reduce size as well? That would be diminutive at best still I think.Which edition?
Because, by the 3.5 Draconomicon, "hatchlings" are just a Wyrmlings in the first hour of their life out-of-the-eggshell

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ShurikVch
Because, by the 3.5 Draconomicon, "hatchlings" are just a Wyrmlings in the first hour of their life out-of-the-eggshell….

Good catch on that. If dragon hatchlings did occur in previous editions, they may have been a synonym for what became wyrmlings. Pathfinder doesn’t seem to use the hatchling terminology either.

So, is there any inherent reason why a dragonlike creature couldn’t be smaller than Diminutive? I am NOT talking about templates, psi-tricks or anything like that, and I am NOT interested in arguing those points. Just wondering if there is any rules-based reason why a dragonlike species couldn’t be smaller than Diminutive, say hummingbird-sized or thereabouts.

[ShurikVch]

Just wondering if there is any rules-based reason why a dragonlike species couldn’t be smaller than Diminutive, say hummingbird-sized or thereabouts.FWIW, in D&D 3.5, Hummingbird is Diminutive

[Palanan]

:smallsigh:

So is there any reason a dragonlike creature couldn't be Fine?

[MisterKaws]

Good catch on that. If dragon hatchlings did occur in previous editions, they may have been a synonym for what became wyrmlings. Pathfinder doesn’t seem to use the hatchling terminology either.

So, is there any inherent reason why a dragonlike creature couldn’t be smaller than Diminutive? I am NOT talking about templates, psi-tricks or anything like that, and I am NOT interested in arguing those points. Just wondering if there is any rules-based reason why a dragonlike species couldn’t be smaller than Diminutive, say hummingbird-sized or thereabouts.

Considering the size of a Pseudodragon, their hatchlings would most likely be Diminutive, but fine is mostly reserved for common insects or base-level lifeforms like the Shimmerlings.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MisterKaws
…but fine is mostly reserved for common insects or base-level lifeforms like the Shimmerlings.

Is this an explicit design rule, or simply a function of Fine creatures not usually posing a threat to most Medium creatures, except as swarms?

In other words, if fey can be Fine, is there any reason why a dragonkin couldn’t?

[ShurikVch]

The thing there is: Fine-sized creature are very very rare outside of Vermin, Construct, and Aberration types.
For example, there are none at all of Fine-sized Dragons, Giants, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, or Plants.
And just a single example of:
Animal (Mouse)
Elemental (Cinder Swarm)
Fey (Shimmerling Swarm)
Outsider (Soul Tick)
Undead (Bloodmote Cloud)

[Particle_Man]

Great, now I have the theme song from “The Littlest Hobo” running through my head. :smallwink:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ShurikVch
And just a single example of:
• Animal (Mouse)

This is a perfect example of the size range I was trying to express, thanks.


Originally Posted by ShurikVch
The thing there is: Fine-sized creature are very very rare outside of Vermin, Construct, and Aberration types.
For example, there are none at all of Fine-sized Dragons, Giants, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, or Plants.

Okay, that’s the question I’m wondering about: is there any reason laid out in the rules that there can’t be a Fine-sized plant, ooze or dragon? Or is this just a design space that hasn’t been touched on much?

[MisterKaws]

This is a perfect example of the size range I was trying to express, thanks.



Okay, that’s the question I’m wondering about: is there any reason laid out in the rules that there can’t be a Fine-sized plant, ooze or dragon? Or is this just a design space that hasn’t been touched on much?

They just didn't have a reason for it. Plants should have been given a few, though, to represent magic spores. Don't know why they never thought of doing that.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ShurikVch
And just a single example of:

Animal (Mouse)

Where did you find this one? I can't find stats for a mouse in either 3.5 or Pathfinder. Was this in Dragon magazine?

[MisterKaws]

Is this an explicit design rule, or simply a function of Fine creatures not usually posing a threat to most Medium creatures, except as swarms?

In other words, if fey can be Fine, is there any reason why a dragonkin couldn’t?

Option B. Dragons just aren't envisioned as songbird-sized creatures.

Which brings up another thing I hate. Why is the smallest size still so big, and why is the biggest size so small? You can't properly stat a normal real-size scorpion if you wanted to for whatever reason, because the smallest possible size category is that of a standard rat. Likewise, if, for whatever reason, you want a Godzilla? Well, that sucker's gotta be thinner than 60 feet. And gods forbid it be able to destroy a reinforced castle wall in a hit - that damn thing has 1500 hp. Takes a Hecatoncheires to break it in one round.


Where did you find this one? I can't find stats for a mouse in either 3.5 or Pathfinder. Was this in Dragon magazine?

Extrapolating from DMG p203:



Mouse
Fine Animal
HD: 1/4 d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft., climb 10 ft.
AC: 18, touch 18, flatfooted 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–21
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Abilities: —
Special Qualities: improved evasion, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 1,
Wis 12, Cha 2.
Skills: Balance +8, Climb +10, Hide +20, Move Silently +12.
Feats: — (none given)
Alignment: Always Neutral
CR: —


The only issue is the odd lack of a feat. I'd give it Alertness and call it a day.

[ShurikVch]

Okay, that’s the question I’m wondering about: is there any reason laid out in the rules that there can’t be a Fine-sized plant, ooze or dragon?
They just didn't have a reason for it. Plants should have been given a few, though, to represent magic spores. Don't know why they never thought of doing that.It looks like Oozes and Plants, when get small enough while staying dangerous, are transiting from the "Monsters" to "Hazards"



Option B. Dragons just aren't envisioned as songbird-sized creatures.FWIW, Spellsong Nightingale (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a) is Diminutive


Extrapolating from DMG p203:

The only issue is the odd lack of a feat.It's holdover of 3.0, where many Animals are have no feats at all - Feat/HD interaction wasn't ironed out back then; original statistics for Mouse was printed in Dragon #280


Which brings up another thing I hate. Why is the smallest size still so big, and why is the biggest size so small?Note: unlike the all other size categories, Colossal and Fine are uncapped:
Mouse is Fine; but grain of sand - Fine too; neutron? Still Fine!
Tarrasque is Colossal; icebergs are Colossal too; Moon - still Colossal; Sun? Yes!


You can't properly stat a normal real-size scorpion if you wanted to for whatever reason, because the smallest possible size category is that of a standard rat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zdXceiJXNM


Likewise, if, for whatever reason, you want a Godzilla? Well, that sucker's gotta be thinner than 60 feet.Ugudenk, the Squirming King:

https://i.ibb.co/MhKJFX2/ugudenk-by-njoo-2.jpg
So large nobody ever seen whole of the body
Still Colossal


And gods forbid it be able to destroy a reinforced castle wall in a hit - that damn thing has 1500 hp. Takes a Hecatoncheires to break it in one round.Where the heck you getting that "1500 hp"? :smallconfused: "Stone, hewn" is 1080 hp, and it's (AFAIK) maximum
Also, when we using super-strong monsters, it may be more prudent to use the Break DC rather than hp damage.

[MisterKaws]

FWIW, Spellsong Nightingale (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a) is Diminutive

There's a lot of birds smaller than a mouse, though.


It's holdover of 3.0, where many Animals are have no feats at all - Feat/HD interaction wasn't ironed out back then; original statistics for Mouse was printed in Dragon #280

Good catch!


Note: unlike the all other size categories, Colossal and Fine are uncapped:
Mouse is Fine; but grain of sand - Fine too; neutron? Still Fine!
Tarrasque is Colossal; icebergs are Colossal too; Moon - still Colossal; Sun? Yes!

And there shall be no more than a hundred grains of sand on a 5-foot square unless they lay down on the ground. In which case another hundred grains of sand can stand over them. Likewise, the Sun occupies a 30-foot square.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zdXceiJXNM

:O


Ugudenk, the Squirming King:

https://i.ibb.co/MhKJFX2/ugudenk-by-njoo-2.jpg
So large nobody ever seen whole of the body
Still Colossal

He can crush cities with his body? Still occupies 30ft.


Where the heck you getting that "1500 hp"? :smallconfused: "Stone, hewn" is 1080 hp, and it's (AFAIK) maximum
Also, when we using super-strong monsters, it may be more prudent to use the Break DC rather than hp damage.

That was an estimation based on my laziness. Break DC is 30, which means you need 70 Str to auto-succeed.

[ShurikVch]

the Sun occupies a 30-foot square.Note: it's not a standard rule, but in official Spelljammer material for 3.5 - Shadow of the Spider Moon - they introduced new size category - "Awesome": AC -16, Size "more than 128 ft."

[MisterKaws]

Note: it's not a standard rule, but in official Spelljammer material for 3.5 - Shadow of the Spider Moon - they introduced new size category - "Awesome": AC -16, Size "more than 128 ft."

That would be nice to have.

[Segev]

Once they get to Colossal+ or bigger, they stop counting as "monsters" and start counting as "terrain."

[HouseRules]

Once they get to Colossal+ or bigger, they stop counting as "monsters" and start counting as "terrain."

I believe the term is TerrorRain.

[ShurikVch]

Once they get to Colossal+ or bigger, they stop counting as "monsters" and start counting as "terrain."In The Story of Voyages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Voyages)is one moment when protagonist(s) got on a living sleeping Dragon.
The Dragon slept there for a very very long time, was covered in soil, and trees grew on it.
Heroes, who came with the intention to kill the Dragon, put their heroism aside, built houses (on the Dragon!), and stated farming.
But once, they got the "bright" idea: to "mine" the Dragon for its fire.
Well, good news - they achieved it.
But bad news - Dragon awakened, and promptly scoured its body from everything foreign. With fire!

[DEMON]

In The Story of Voyages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Voyages)

How on earth have I never heard of this movie? They never show it on TV here. Which is strange, considering my country was one of the 3 co-producing countries.

[Mr Adventurer]

. Break DC is 30, which means you need 70 Str to auto-succeed.

You add your size modifier to Str checks to break objects.

[MisterKaws]

You add your size modifier to Str checks to break objects.

Good catch. That works then.