So I finally get to play a Spell To Power Erudite! .... And I need some Powers help!

[Gavinfoxx]

So my GM said I can play any OP class I want, but there's going to be a weird restriction. Basically, I can jump through all the hoops I want (as long as they're RAW legal) to get any power or spell I want, as a high level character, BUT, I have to specifically research each spell or power in game. IE, the character essentially had the manifesting power of a high level StP Erudite dropped on them, but no powers known. Sooo... I need to figure out what very small list of powers and spells-as-powers will get me the most bang for the buck, the quickest, to learn, with the restriction of the 'no power that gets you a bunch of powers with that one'. I can get each specific benefit of Reality Revision/Wish/Miracle as it's own thing; they're all possible, but each use of these high-tier multi use powers needs to be independently researched (and at that point, I may as well just research the lower level powers themselves).

So... with essentially all of D&D manifesting and spellcasting open to my fingertips... what the hell powers do I research, in what order??

[MisterKaws]

Glitterdust, Celerity, (Greater)Arcane Fusion, all the stuff you see in wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid lists as a must-have.

[Gavinfoxx]

What about the high level stuff for ruining some big bad 'I have huge numbers lol'-type enemy's day?

[StevenC21]

Forcecage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Grab the spells that allow you to get the most versatility possible.

Shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, miracle, (lesser/greater) planar ally, (greater) arcane fusion, etc. Also various illusions. Perhaps silent image with shadowcraft mage?

Get yourself a wizard 1/psion 3/cerebremancer minion (with Precocious Apprentice and the makings of an easybake wizard on the wizard side) with a psychoactive skin of proteus, have him turn into a necklace or something, wear him, and then proceed to manifest from his powers known as though you're manifesting from a power stone. That way you're not eating up so many valuable UPPD on every little thing.

[MisterKaws]

What about the high level stuff for ruining some big bad 'I have huge numbers lol'-type enemy's day?

Other than chain-gating Solars? Do you mean huge stats or huge numbers of goons? If you want to make goons useless you'll probably want Black Labyrinth from the Shadowcaster list. For bosses with strong stats, you'll usually want to try targeting their weakness. That requires some divinations to know said weaknesses, and then spells that can get you various effects at once, like Shapechange, Gate, Planar Ally/Binding, and others. You can spam quite a lot of spells by merging Arcane Fusion and Twin Synchronicity plus normal Synchronicity, potentially branching into more Synchronicities if you have ways to quickly recover Psionic Focus. You could get a bunch of actions and just nuke them with ten level 9 spells in a round. There's always a spell to kill any bbeg, unless the DM just doesn't want it to die.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem with shadow conjuration is due to the houserules I'm going to be operating under don't let me use lots of other spells -- each effect has to be individually researched, as I said in my original post.

And the big bad is some sort of weird very magical magic kaiju construct-ish monster. What's the best divination for figuring out particulars?

[MisterKaws]

The problem with shadow conjuration is due to the houserules I'm going to be operating under don't let me use lots of other spells -- each effect has to be individually researched, as I said in my original post.

And the big bad is some sort of weird very magical magic kaiju construct-ish monster. What's the best divination for figuring out particulars?

I'm not the best person to tell you that, so have a guide: This was freaking impossible to find. (https://web.archive.org/web/20130808082139/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871402/Tsuyoshis_Guide_to_Divination_Spells:_G-ds_Eyes)

There's also another trick of note: stack bonuses to Knowledge(whatever) and roll knowledge against a creature. You get to know more info against it the higher your check goes, though it's up to your DM.

But well, if you roll a 100 on your knowledge you could argue that it's enough to let you see the entire thing's monster block.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Get a thot thought bottle to mitigate XP costs. Then have your wizard/psion/cerebremancer/mind mage use it to teach you all of his spells and powers via psychic chirurgery. Then have him psychic reformation himself to get more powers. When he runs out of XP, use the thot thought bottle to refill. Even better if you use nested thot thought bottles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes).

[Anthrowhale]

And the big bad is some sort of weird very magical magic kaiju construct-ish monster. What's the best divination for figuring out particulars?

Maybe you want Time Stop, Metafaculty, Greater Plane Shift, Disjunction, Surge of Fortune, Sense weakness, Antimagic Aura, and Orb of Force? Maybe add in Slime Hurl for an extra attack vector.

[MisterKaws]

Maybe you want Time Stop, Metafaculty, Greater Plane Shift, Disjunction, Surge of Fortune, Sense weakness, Antimagic Aura, and Orb of Force? Maybe add in Slime Hurl for an extra attack vector.

Don't forget Hypercognition. It's basically a "Free DM Tip" spell.

[Gavinfoxx]

What's a good 'Save or Die' to use on a big mean 'big numbers' living-construct-ish kaiju?

"I wish this monster was sent to the negative energy plane"?

[MisterKaws]

What's a good 'Save or Die' to use on a big mean 'big numbers' living-construct-ish kaiju?

"I wish this monster was sent to the negative energy plane"?

He prolly has tons of immunities and high saves, so you should instead look for no-save spells. Heck, maybe even load up on Meta-psi kineticist energy attacks and mailman him to death.

Another good trick might be getting Glyph of Warding, making ten thousand thin sheets of metal warded with some no-save sonic spell, bundle them all together, then drop them on him. It's immediate death.

[StevenC21]

Figure out if he's immune to ability damage.

If not, use my favorite poorly balanced spell: Lahms Finger Darts! Preferably Arcane Thesis'd, Empowered, and Maximized.

[MisterKaws]

Figure out if he's immune to ability damage.

If not, use my favorite poorly balanced spell: Lahms Finger Darts! Preferably Arcane Thesis'd, Empowered, and Maximized.

Well, you lose your fingers so it can hardly be called poorly balanced.

Though yes, it's indeed a ridiculous spell if you maximize it. But there's just a tiny problem: constructs are immune to ability damage.

[StevenC21]

Isn't he a living construct though? My understanding is that living constructs take ability damage as normal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Does it have ranks in Balance, burrowing, or flight? Is it ethereal or incorporeal? Can it teleport at will? If not, grease (or the psionic version thereof) will screw it up no matter its Reflex save.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think it might have very high spell resistance and power resistance, but not immunity.

[MisterKaws]

Isn't he a living construct though? My understanding is that living constructs take ability damage as normal.

Depends. Is it a Half-Golem with a failed save or a construct given sentience?

[Endarire]

Shapechange (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517934-The-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook).

[ThanatosZero]

If your DM allows Dragon Magazines and some reasonable fluff,
start your character as a human wizard and take Eidetic Spellcaster (Dragon Magazine #357) and Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane) as your first two feats.
Eidetic Spellcaster allows you to use your brain as your spellbook and Precocious Apprentice grants you one 2nd Level Spellslot with one 2nd level spell of your choice.

From there you move on to the Spell To Power Erudite and gain levels, till you qualify for Cerebremancer and take four levels of it so you can qualifiy for the Mind Mage prestige class (Dragon Magazine #313). You take all ten of them and then fill the rest with Cerebremancer.


Wizard 1/Erudite StP 3/Cerebremancer 4/Mindmage 10/Cerebremancer +2 (6)

This build gives you 15/20 Wizard Spellcasting and 17/20 Manifesting Powers, which CL and ML can be raised to 20 via Twin Wells Same Source (Ex), whenever you cast or manifest as a fullround action (it still invokes attacks of opportunity)

Even though there is nothing in RAW, in which Eidetic Spellcaster would make any learned spell in your head to a known power as well, it sounds reasonable that a StP Erudite would be able to comprehend the learned spells within his head in order to use them also as powers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If your DM allows Dragon Magazines and some reasonable fluff,
start your character as a human wizard and take Eidetic Spellcaster (Dragon Magazine #357) and Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane) as your first two feats.
Eidetic Spellcaster allows you to use your brain as your spellbook and Precocious Apprentice grants you one 2nd Level Spellslot with one 2nd level spell of your choice.

From there you move on to the Spell To Power Erudite and gain levels, till you qualify for Cerebremancer and take four levels of it so you can qualifiy for the Mind Mage prestige class (Dragon Magazine #313). You take all ten of them and then fill the rest with Cerebremancer.


Wizard 1/Erudite StP 3/Cerebremancer 4/Mindmage 10/Cerebremancer +2 (6)

This build gives you 15/20 Wizard Spellcasting and 17/20 Manifesting Powers, which CL and ML can be raised to 20 via Twin Wells Same Source (Ex), whenever you cast or manifest as a fullround action (it still invokes attacks of opportunity)

Even though there is nothing in RAW, in which Eidetic Spellcaster would make any learned spell in your head to a known power as well, it sounds reasonable that a StP Erudite would be able to comprehend the learned spells within his head in order to use them also as powers.A 1 level dip into the psionic version of spellthief and take the Master (Psi)thief feat to stack your CLs and MLs again. Totally worth the dip and feat.

Even without psionics/magic transparency, but only if you've got the Magic mantle. (Luckily, erudites get an ACF for that in the same place StP erudite comes from.)

Furthermore, take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to boost your ML to your HD before additional boosts. It'll also nix AoOs for manifesting, needing to overcome PR (ever), dispelling, disjunctions, and those pesky Concentration checks, too. Unlike Practiced Manifester (?), it should give you a boost to your pp pool, as well.

[PraxisVetli]

A 1 level dip into the psionic version of spellthief and take the Master (Psi)thief feat to stack your CLs and MLs again. Totally worth the dip and feat.

Even without psionics/magic transparency, but only if you've got the Magic mantle. (Luckily, erudites get an ACF for that in the same place StP erudite comes from.)

Furthermore, take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to boost your ML to your HD before additional boosts. It'll also nix AoOs for manifesting, needing to overcome PR (ever), dispelling, disjunctions, and those pesky Concentration checks, too. Unlike Practiced Manifester (?), it should give you a boost to your pp pool, as well.

So then, to clarify, could a Psion with Supernatural Transformation, the Magic Mantle, and Psithief achieve a ML of 3•HD?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So then, to clarify, could a Psion with Supernatural Transformation, the Magic Mantle, and Psithief achieve a ML of 3•HD?x2, I think. x1 for psion + x1 for psithief.

Add some mind mage to boost the multiplier to x3.

[PraxisVetli]

x2, I think. x1 for psion + x1 for psithief.

Add some mind mage to boost the multiplier to x3.

Not another +•1 for Ardent?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not another +•1 for Ardent?If you took a level in ardent, yes. But I never mentioned ardent. Remember, StP erudites get access to a mantle through an ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

But yes, for every dip in a manifesting class, you gain an additional +HD to your ML (plus whatever other bonuses you've got, such as from an orange ioun stone).

[PraxisVetli]

If you took a level in ardent, yes. But I never mentioned ardent. Remember, StP erudites get access to a mantle through an ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

But yes, for every dip in a manifesting class, you gain an additional +HD to your ML (plus whatever other bonuses you've got, such as from an orange ioun stone).

That's on me, I said Mantle, but didn't specify the class, not the ACF.
Thank you!
Edit:
One more question, JUST TO BE SURE.
This would then allow me to spend 3•HD on powers, correct?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's on me, I said Mantle, but didn't specify the class, not the ACF.
Thank you!
Edit:
One more question, JUST TO BE SURE.
This would then allow me to spend 3•HD on powers, correct?Yes, since your pp expenditures are capped by your ML, not your HD, although you'll largely be stuck with lower level powers if you keep adding on 1 level dips. To keep your power levels up, you'd have to focus on your ardent manifesting, since your max power level known is based on your ML, not your class level. You'd get most of your power points from your ability scores (multiplied by your ML), so you'd have to keep them as high as you can to keep up with the number you'd be spending, unless you only dip a couple of times.

If so, I'd suggest spending most of your WBL on ability score boosts, as well as buying manifestations of psychic chirurgery to add higher level powers known to your ardent list. This makes your erudite learning mechanic pretty useless, since that's based on class level.

Unless you have an accommodating DM, this is more of an interesting trick than anything else. Super-high ML but it only works with low level powers.

[edit] Of course, I guess you could dip 3 levels in illithid savant to add the StP erudite learning to ardent, or graft the ardent learning mechanic to the rest of your classes. That'd fix that particular issue.

[edit 2] Added this trick to the list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=24022907&viewfull=1#post24022907).

[PraxisVetli]

Yes, since your pp expenditures are capped by your ML, not your HD, although you'll largely be stuck with lower level powers if you keep adding on 1 level dips. To keep your power levels up, you'd have to focus on your ardent manifesting, since your max power level known is based on your ML, not your class level. You'd get most of your power points from your ability scores (multiplied by your ML), so you'd have to keep them as high as you can to keep up with the number you'd be spending, unless you only dip a couple of times.

If so, I'd suggest spending most of your WBL on ability score boosts, as well as buying manifestations of psychic chirurgery to add higher level powers known to your ardent list. This makes your erudite learning mechanic pretty useless, since that's based on class level.

Unless you have an accommodating DM, this is more of an interesting trick than anything else. Super-high ML but it only works with low level powers.

[edit] Of course, I guess you could dip 3 levels in illithid savant to add the StP erudite learning to ardent, or graft the ardent learning mechanic to the rest of your classes. That'd fix that particular issue.

[edit 2] Added this trick to the list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=24022907&viewfull=1#post24022907).

Well in this particular instance, I'm an StP Erudite//Warblade, and I think I'll dip Psithief and Ardent (too late for StP's ACF) on the Warblade side.
That should let me just keep cruisin StP with my newfangled ridonk ML.
Right?
And ideally, with Substitute Powers, I can customize my Mantles to grab 1 or 2 of the Discipline specific powers instead of having to burn my Unique powers on them.
That's the goal, anyway..

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well in this particular instance, I'm an StP Erudite//Warblade, and I think I'll dip Psithief and Ardent (too late for StP's ACF) on the Warblade side.
That should let me just keep cruisin StP with my newfangled ridonk ML.
Right?
And ideally, with Substitute Powers, I can customize my Mantles to grab 1 or 2 of the Discipline specific powers instead of having to burn my Unique powers on them.
That's the goal, anyway..Might wanna talk to your DM about it, first.

[PraxisVetli]

might wanna talk to your dm about it, first.

I've been approvedddddd!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You've been approvedududududud?

What kind of campaign is s/he running?!

[PraxisVetli]

You've been approvedududududud?

What kind of campaign is s/he running?!

The kind where, just this once, this sort of madness is allowed.
I'm going to enjoy this, it'll just go lovely with my Enhanced Elan Resilience, don't you think?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The kind where, just this once, this sort of madness is allowed.
I'm going to enjoy this, it'll just go lovely with my Enhanced Elan Resilience, don't you think?In that case, instead of spending a ton of moneyage on psychic reformation, get a friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23801600&viewfull=1#post23801600).

Also, take Ancestral Relic and Landlord and make your body a temple to use them with (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432).