Animate Objects, Dissonate Whispers & Opportunity Attacks

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I want to check on the legality of something my Level 9 Bard did.

Round 1 of Combat I cast Animate objects and had them attack the giants we were engaged with one at a time.

Round 2, the giant they objects attacked was dead so they moved onto the nxxt. They attacked giant 2. I cast Dissonant Whispers. Giant 2 failed the save. The animated objects and EVERYONE in melee with giant 2 got an opportunity attack as giant 2 used its reaction to flee.

This caused something like 100 points of damage by the time the 10 Objects all attacked twice for 32 on their action and then 43 points for their opportunity attack, Dissonate Whispers did its 10, plus the opportunity attacks from our Rogue and Fighter.

Am I missing something or is Animate Objects & Dissonate Whispers just that good of a combo?

[sulimo0310]

You are missing nothing. Dissonant Whispers is a fantastic spell that is better the more allies you have in melee. And everyone knows how good animate objects is. They play very nicely together.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You are missing nothing. Dissonant Whispers is a fantastic spell that is better the more allies you have in melee. And everyone knows how good animate objects is. They play very nicely together.

Tanks for the confirmation and putting up with my 0200 typo's!

I'm wondering about something like Entangle and Animate Objects now. I think the objects would have advantage on a restrained enemy. Assuming you used flying objects...

Any other 1-2 punches I should be thinking about?

[Degwerks]

Blindness/Deafness spell is no concentration, so your objects could get advantage that way too.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Blindness/Deafness spell is no concentration, so your objects could get advantage that way too.

Very true...I don't have that one right now. I wonder if its in our Wizard's book....He's never used it. His Wizard subtype may as well be "Fire" lol.

Speaking of him, he has Conjured Minor Elementals before. My lord, the opportunity attacks we could get on Giants! I guess the DM will allow us to really stack em squares as long as I Animate Objects which will get a fly speed lol.

[RulesJD]

Animated Objects (Tiny) is brokenly OP. It's banned in any campaign I run for a reason as it completely breaks every encounter that doesn't have immunity to non-magical damage.

[stoutstien]

Animated Objects (Tiny) is brokenly OP. It's banned in any campaign I run for a reason as it completely breaks every encounter that doesn't have immunity to non-magical damage.

Hard to say that. 5th spell in general are as big as a jump for player power as when then get 3rd or 9th.
Of the top of my head I'd say
Contagion
Circle of power
Awaken
Bigbys hand
Transmute rock
Wall of force/stone
Are all equally powerful in their own right.

[RulesJD]

Hard to say that. 5th spell in general are as big as a jump for player power as when then get 3rd or 9th.
Of the top of my head I'd say
Contagion
Circle of power
Awaken
Bigbys hand
Transmute rock
Wall of force/stone
Are all equally powerful in their own right.

Agreed, and I use most all of them. Wall of Force in particular.

But Animated Objects (Tiny) is in a class all of its own. It can, with the barest modicum of effort, solo every encounter that doesn't have:
1. A strong AoE that can one-shot the tiny forms, likely meaning Con save. The AoE has to emit from the target, as the forms can surround a creature on all sides.
2. An anti-magic field present
3. Immunity to non-magical weapons

That's it. Unless that encounter has one of those three, that single spell can solo it. Sure, WoF is strong AF as well, but it's avoid an encounter or overcomes and obstacle in still limited ways.

AO (tiny) just tanks and spanks everything. Nothing else comes close to it on the damage scale for the use of just a Bonus Action.

[Degwerks]

I'm away from the books right now but can't tiny creatures occupy the same square as a large creature?

[Frozenstep]

Agreed, and I use most all of them. Wall of Force in particular.

But Animated Objects (Tiny) is in a class all of its own. It can, with the barest modicum of effort, solo every encounter that doesn't have:
1. A strong AoE that can one-shot the tiny forms, likely meaning Con save. The AoE has to emit from the target, as the forms can surround a creature on all sides.
2. An anti-magic field present
3. Immunity to non-magical weapons

That's it. Unless that encounter has one of those three, that single spell can solo it. Sure, WoF is strong AF as well, but it's avoid an encounter or overcomes and obstacle in still limited ways.

AO (tiny) just tanks and spanks everything. Nothing else comes close to it on the damage scale for the use of just a Bonus Action.

There's also resistance to non-magical weapons, which shows up a lot. Making the caster lose concentration is also an effective strategy, and even if the caster boosts their concentration saves, they might still be vulnerable to a save-or-be-incapacitated which will make concentration drop anyway. Dex saves are common, and tiny objects only have +4, to them, and even if they succeed half the damage of one might be enough to wipe them out anyway. There's also the potential for a creature to be too fast, or a number of enemies too far apart, leading to wasted turns of the animate objects trying to keep up.

It's still one of the best spells in the book, but there are some weaknesses, and it shouldn't be breaking every encounter.

[InspectorG]

Agreed, and I use most all of them. Wall of Force in particular.

But Animated Objects (Tiny) is in a class all of its own. It can, with the barest modicum of effort, solo every encounter that doesn't have:
1. A strong AoE that can one-shot the tiny forms, likely meaning Con save. The AoE has to emit from the target, as the forms can surround a creature on all sides.
2. An anti-magic field present
3. Immunity to non-magical weapons

That's it. Unless that encounter has one of those three, that single spell can solo it. Sure, WoF is strong AF as well, but it's avoid an encounter or overcomes and obstacle in still limited ways.

AO (tiny) just tanks and spanks everything. Nothing else comes close to it on the damage scale for the use of just a Bonus Action.

A bit RAW, but, i dont see the Objects having any text exempting them from Mental Effects.

May not be thematic but:

Hypnotic Pattern
Fear
Sleep
...etc.

Plus with terrible STR, stuff like Web(if it lands well) and Gust of Wind(who chooses this spell?) could mitigate the spell.

Control Winds(Down draft) seems like it would lock down all those Tiny objects.

IMO, a single Dispel Magic would effect all objects, the reasoning is they are animated by one spell that has a Concentration cost, similar to breaking that concentration.

I think i would still forbid Tiny objects, or reduce their HP to 4-ish. They are a bit strong.

[Nagog]

Agreed, and I use most all of them. Wall of Force in particular.

But Animated Objects (Tiny) is in a class all of its own. It can, with the barest modicum of effort, solo every encounter that doesn't have:
1. A strong AoE that can one-shot the tiny forms, likely meaning Con save. The AoE has to emit from the target, as the forms can surround a creature on all sides.
2. An anti-magic field present
3. Immunity to non-magical weapons

That's it. Unless that encounter has one of those three, that single spell can solo it. Sure, WoF is strong AF as well, but it's avoid an encounter or overcomes and obstacle in still limited ways.

AO (tiny) just tanks and spanks everything. Nothing else comes close to it on the damage scale for the use of just a Bonus Action.

There are quite a few ways to get around these strengths. For example, having the party fight 10 CR 1/2 enemies can be quite a bit more difficult than a single CR 5 enemy, due to action economy, in the same way this spell is powerful. This spell is limited because the actions the objects can take is extremely limited. As has been stated, AoE attacks are quite effective, especially those with saves for half damage, as well as good ol' Counterspell. Also, Spike Growth could easily take them out, flying or not. All in all, this spell is powerful because it grants you 10 extra attack actions, with a minimum of 5 damage each if they all hit. While a powerful spell in it's own right, it definitely shines in some situations more than others.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Animate Objects rocks, half pun intended.

I'll try to track its damage vs some Rogue and Paladin abilities to see if its overpowered. Its nice though to be able to spend my ONE 5th level slot carefully when I think I can maintain concentration on something with great damage output.

Am I correct in assuming Dispel Magic shuts it down?

[RulesJD]

There are quite a few ways to get around these strengths. For example, having the party fight 10 CR 1/2 enemies can be quite a bit more difficult than a single CR 5 enemy, due to action economy, in the same way this spell is powerful. This spell is limited because the actions the objects can take is extremely limited. As has been stated, AoE attacks are quite effective, especially those with saves for half damage, as well as good ol' Counterspell. Also, Spike Growth could easily take them out, flying or not. All in all, this spell is powerful because it grants you 10 extra attack actions, with a minimum of 5 damage each if they all hit. While a powerful spell in it's own right, it definitely shines in some situations more than others.

Show me a DM that prefers to run 10 CR 1/2 over one CR 5 and I'll show you an exception DM. It's 10x easier to run the CR 5, so that's what typically happens.

The actions they can take are not limited, where do you get that from?

The problem with AoE attacks from a DM perspective is both that you may be forced to hit players you would prefer not to, and more importantly, you are likely to end up nuking several of the other enemies. This is especially true given that the objects can share a space with most any creature you're actually going to be using, unless that creature moves away and eats the OP attacks.
Spike Growth does almost nothing. They float up 5 feet, take 2d4 damage which with 20hp they survive automatically, and then hover above it.

Here's how AO (Tiny) actually works in game play.

1. PC takes out ten silver coins and throws them out, animating them as an Action. Uses Bonus Action to move them into the enemies space, where they make their attacks. Even with a high AC enemy (18 AC) they hit about half the time for around 32.5 damage.

2. Monster's best case scenario is moving away and AoEing them to death. As it moves away, it eats Opp attacks. Another 32.5 damage.

At this point, the monster has eaten 65 damage, which is near as makes no difference, nearly the equivalent of a Disintegrate. Except the objects are still alive and might survive the AoE, resulting in even more damage. Show me any other 5th level or lower spell with that sort of minimum damage potential that doesn't involve any saves. Through in even the most basic ways to generate advantage and that spike shoots up.

The only, only scenario where AO truly doesn't shine is when there are lots of smaller enemies. Given the restraints and difficulty to DM many enemies at once, DMs always tend towards a smaller number of stronger enemies.

AO isn't a broken spell. AO (Tiny) is broken.

[stoutstien]

Running one single Target will always be a fail in 5th edition. I found three to five is The Sweet spot. Not counting minions.
Or

Just give your big baddie DR - 10......

[PhoenixPhyre]

Running a single monster of any CR[1] as your default encounter is broken and is the root of the problem. 5e does not do well with that, and DMs who choose to do so are setting themselves up for hurt.

The game works best (balance wise) when there are 1.x enemies per PC, where 0 < x < 9. An occasional solo (with proper legendary actions/resistances) can work as a garnish, but those will never be the hard encounters unless the CR is such that you're one poor roll away from a TPK. They're a catharsis, designed for fun setpiece battles with lots of other things going on, not a regular staple.

Heck, even 6 CR 1 creatures makes Animate Objects much less powerful. And that should be a normal encounter (Medium for 4 level 5 characters), of which you can do 6 or so per long rest. A solo CR 5 is trivial, by the way. Yes, technically it's a Medium encounter (by the books), but in reality it's a speedbump.

[Frozenstep]

Show me a DM that prefers to run 10 CR 1/2 over one CR 5 and I'll show you an exception DM. It's 10x easier to run the CR 5, so that's what typically happens.

The actions they can take are not limited, where do you get that from?

The problem with AoE attacks from a DM perspective is both that you may be forced to hit players you would prefer not to, and more importantly, you are likely to end up nuking several of the other enemies. This is especially true given that the objects can share a space with most any creature you're actually going to be using, unless that creature moves away and eats the OP attacks.
Spike Growth does almost nothing. They float up 5 feet, take 2d4 damage which with 20hp they survive automatically, and then hover above it.

Here's how AO (Tiny) actually works in game play.

1. PC takes out ten silver coins and throws them out, animating them as an Action. Uses Bonus Action to move them into the enemies space, where they make their attacks. Even with a high AC enemy (18 AC) they hit about half the time for around 32.5 damage.

2. Monster's best case scenario is moving away and AoEing them to death. As it moves away, it eats Opp attacks. Another 32.5 damage.

At this point, the monster has eaten 65 damage, which is near as makes no difference, nearly the equivalent of a Disintegrate. Except the objects are still alive and might survive the AoE, resulting in even more damage. Show me any other 5th level or lower spell with that sort of minimum damage potential that doesn't involve any saves. Through in even the most basic ways to generate advantage and that spike shoots up.

The only, only scenario where AO truly doesn't shine is when there are lots of smaller enemies. Given the restraints and difficulty to DM many enemies at once, DMs always tend towards a smaller number of stronger enemies.

AO isn't a broken spell. AO (Tiny) is broken.

Wow, there's a lot to unpack here.

First off, why wouldn't a monster want to hit players with AoE attacks? Second, it's not that hard to avoid tagging allies with AoE if you aren't crowding your enemies shoulder to shoulder (aka the basic DM doesn't want the encounter to die to one fireball strat).

You only trigger AoO attacks when you leave their reach. If the objects are on top of you, you can move 5 feet in any direction and you don't trigger an AoO because you're still in their reach. This makes it even easier to place an AoE that doesn't hit allies and likely hits players.

Also, a DM who runs a single monster against a party is probably just trying to eat up some party resources. I haven't run an encounter with less than 4 monsters ever. It's too easy for one failed saving throw to end the fight if you do that (and I don't like using legendary saving throws as a mechanic).

[sithlordnergal]

You're using it perfectly, and I really like the Dissonant Whispers combo. I hadn't thought of that.

As for DMs who have trouble dealing with the Tiny objects, I'm guessing you also have trouble with spells like Conjure Animals, Necromancers who bring a bunch of undead, and similar summoning spells?

My suggestion is to not run single enemy encounters. Mooks are there for a reason.

[Rukelnikov]

Show me any other 5th level or lower spell with that sort of minimum damage potential that doesn't involve any saves. Through in even the most basic ways to generate advantage and that spike shoots up.

The only, only scenario where AO truly doesn't shine is when there are lots of smaller enemies. Given the restraints and difficulty to DM many enemies at once, DMs always tend towards a smaller number of stronger enemies.

AO isn't a broken spell. AO (Tiny) is broken.

Conjure Animals 3rd lvl spell, using a 5th lvl slot, vs AC 18 your DPR can be...

16 wolves: ~72.5 DPR
16 Cows(and most cowlikes): ~85 DPR (assuming only half of them get the charge bonus, otherwise its past 100 DPR)
16 Giant Poisonous Snakes: ~72 DPR (assuming all enemies make their saves)

Also, CA lasts 1 hour, and can start being used 4 lvls earlier.

[sithlordnergal]

Conjure Animals 3rd lvl spell, using a 5th lvl slot, vs AC 18 your DPR can be...

16 wolves: ~72.5 DPR
16 Cows(and most cowlikes): ~85 DPR (assuming only half of them get the charge bonus, otherwise its past 100 DPR)
16 Giant Poisonous Snakes: ~72 DPR (assuming all enemies make their saves)

Also, CA lasts 1 hour, and can start being used 4 lvls earlier.

You forgot the best option though, Velociraptors. Pack tactics, small so 2 can fit in a square without getting in each other's way, and a multiattack that does 1d6+2 and 1d4+2.

Assuming all attacks hit thanks to the advantage, and ignoring crits, its an average of around 160 dpr

[RulesJD]

Conjure Animals 3rd lvl spell, using a 5th lvl slot, vs AC 18 your DPR can be...

16 wolves: ~72.5 DPR
16 Cows(and most cowlikes): ~85 DPR (assuming only half of them get the charge bonus, otherwise its past 100 DPR)
16 Giant Poisonous Snakes: ~72 DPR (assuming all enemies make their saves)

Also, CA lasts 1 hour, and can start being used 4 lvls earlier.

*sigh*

Yes, Conjure Animals is also strong, anyone that knows anything about 5e knows this.

1. Conjure Animals is subject to significant DM disagreement with respect to what animal actually shows up. This alone has spawn numerous threads and debates, indicating it's only as powerful as the DM lets it be. AO does not have this problem.

2. Conjure Animals are Medium size at least, significantly inhibiting allies. AO (Tiny) has no impact on allies.

3. Conjure Animals are Medium size at least, meaning they need Huge or larger to occupy the space of an enemy and, more importantly, can't occupy the same 5-foot square (see #2).

4. The animals you listed all have 1/2 the health and lower to-hit (Pact Tactics being one of the exceptions), and significantly worse AC.

5. The animals you listed don't have Fly/Hover.

6. Your DPR calculations are laughable at best because they require multiple targets to be able to pull off, given as mentioned, the size differences. Any sort of battlefield besides a white room of infinite size immediately drops your calculations, see #2 + 3.


AO (Tiny) > Conjure Animals for combat all day, every day. The only exception would be class specific builds like Sheppard Druid to help bypass non-magic resist, etc. Is CA weak? No, obviously not. It's also one of the most powerful spells in 5e and for good reasons, as you pointed out. CA is also typically nerfed in campaigns, albeit more as a result of just how much they slow down combat for the table. And absolutely, for utility, Conjure Animals easily trumps it (Giant Eagles/Owls), but we aren't discussing utility here.

[Rukelnikov]

*sigh*

Yes, Conjure Animals is also strong, anyone that knows anything about 5e knows this.

1. Conjure Animals is subject to significant DM disagreement with respect to what animal actually shows up. This alone has spawn numerous threads and debates, indicating it's only as powerful as the DM lets it be. AO does not have this problem.

2. Conjure Animals are Medium size at least, significantly inhibiting allies. AO (Tiny) has no impact on allies.

3. Conjure Animals are Medium size at least, meaning they need Huge or larger to occupy the space of an enemy and, more importantly, can't occupy the same 5-foot square (see #2).

4. The animals you listed all have 1/2 the health and lower to-hit (Pact Tactics being one of the exceptions), and significantly worse AC.

5. The animals you listed don't have Fly/Hover.

6. Your DPR calculations are laughable at best because they require multiple targets to be able to pull off, given as mentioned, the size differences. Any sort of battlefield besides a white room of infinite size immediately drops your calculations, see #2 + 3.


AO (Tiny) > Conjure Animals for combat all day, every day. The only exception would be class specific builds like Sheppard Druid to help bypass non-magic resist, etc. Is CA weak? No, obviously not. It's also one of the most powerful spells in 5e and for good reasons, as you pointed out. CA is also typically nerfed in campaigns, albeit more as a result of just how much they slow down combat for the table. And absolutely, for utility, Conjure Animals easily trumps it (Giant Eagles/Owls), but we aren't discussing utility here.

You started by asking for more DPR, which I provided, and now move goalposts saying animals are less durable than the objects, or can't fly, or can't all attack the same target, which you didn't specify originally.

Well, the GPS has 10 ft reach, so 16 of them can attack the same target and still leave space for the rest of the party to attack.

About my calculations, they take the to hit, and crits into account, something you didn't do in yours.

And finally about the "all day everyday", more like "all this single encounter", since it only lasts one minute, while CA lasts 1 hour. It's the definitive summon spell, and even has better class support than AO.

[Kenny Snoggins]

Agreed, and I use most all of them. Wall of Force in particular.

But Animated Objects (Tiny) is in a class all of its own. It can, with the barest modicum of effort, solo every encounter that doesn't have:
1. A strong AoE that can one-shot the tiny forms, likely meaning Con save. The AoE has to emit from the target, as the forms can surround a creature on all sides.
2. An anti-magic field present
3. Immunity to non-magical weapons

That's it. Unless that encounter has one of those three, that single spell can solo it. Sure, WoF is strong AF as well, but it's avoid an encounter or overcomes and obstacle in still limited ways.

AO (tiny) just tanks and spanks everything. Nothing else comes close to it on the damage scale for the use of just a Bonus Action.

Or just like get the caster to drop concentration.

Great idea taking away basically the only offensive blaster spell of note bards ever get though, sounds like a super fun table.

BTW you realize you can have your own casters take it as well right?

[Zuras]

*sigh*

Yes, Conjure Animals is also strong, anyone that knows anything about 5e knows this.

1. Conjure Animals is subject to significant DM disagreement with respect to what animal actually shows up. This alone has spawn numerous threads and debates, indicating it's only as powerful as the DM lets it be. AO does not have this problem.

2. Conjure Animals are Medium size at least, significantly inhibiting allies. AO (Tiny) has no impact on allies.

3. Conjure Animals are Medium size at least, meaning they need Huge or larger to occupy the space of an enemy and, more importantly, can't occupy the same 5-foot square (see #2).

4. The animals you listed all have 1/2 the health and lower to-hit (Pact Tactics being one of the exceptions), and significantly worse AC.

5. The animals you listed don't have Fly/Hover.

6. Your DPR calculations are laughable at best because they require multiple targets to be able to pull off, given as mentioned, the size differences. Any sort of battlefield besides a white room of infinite size immediately drops your calculations, see #2 + 3.


AO (Tiny) > Conjure Animals for combat all day, every day. The only exception would be class specific builds like Sheppard Druid to help bypass non-magic resist, etc. Is CA weak? No, obviously not. It's also one of the most powerful spells in 5e and for good reasons, as you pointed out. CA is also typically nerfed in campaigns, albeit more as a result of just how much they slow down combat for the table. And absolutely, for utility, Conjure Animals easily trumps it (Giant Eagles/Owls), but we aren't discussing utility here.

Velociraptors are Tiny, not small, so they can crowd enemies just like flying animated daggers. They have worse to-hit but better damage and pack tactics, and will shred anything with a bad AC (14 or worse). At 5th level Conjure Animals gets you 16 of them. They don’t fly, and they don’t have blindsight, so animated objects will often be better, but certainly not a case where one clearly outclasses the other.

It’s a very good combat spell, but is amazing only against a subset of encounters. Against fewer mid-AC enemies with lots of HP, it’s great. Against an enemy with AoE attacks, or many enemies with weaker and less accurate attacks, it is worse than many of your other spell options. If you know both Animate Objects and Synaptic Static, but only ever cast AO, your DM is not throwing varied encounters at you.

[RulesJD]

Animate Objects rocks, half pun intended.

I'll try to track its damage vs some Rogue and Paladin abilities to see if its overpowered. Its nice though to be able to spend my ONE 5th level slot carefully when I think I can maintain concentration on something with great damage output.

Am I correct in assuming Dispel Magic shuts it down?

Just wanted to point out before continuing, that no, Dispel Magic does not shut down the whole spell. Sage Advice Compendium lays out that Dispel Magic impacts one Target, that's it. I agree that it probably should, but then you can imagine where some of the AO's would enter an AM field and be temporarily disabled, not all of them at one time if only 1 AO enters the field.

[RulesJD]

Velociraptors are Tiny, not small, so they can crowd enemies just like flying animated daggers. They have worse to-hit but better damage and pack tactics, and will shred anything with a bad AC (14 or worse). At 5th level Conjure Animals gets you 16 of them. They don’t fly, and they don’t have blindsight, so animated objects will often be better, but certainly not a case where one clearly outclasses the other.

It’s a very good combat spell, but is amazing only against a subset of encounters. Against fewer mid-AC enemies with lots of HP, it’s great. Against an enemy with AoE attacks, or many enemies with weaker and less accurate attacks, it is worse than many of your other spell options. If you know both Animate Objects and Synaptic Static, but only ever cast AO, your DM is not throwing varied encounters at you.

If we want to do a Conjure Animals vs AO (Tiny) separate discussion, I'm more than happy to have it. Conjure Animals, as I literally stated, is a magnificently strong spell. It's the natural casters Fireball/Spirit Guardians of its level, known to be far more powerful than it should otherwise be.

It is still not as good as AO (Tiny) for combat. All of the examples provided don't match AO (Tiny)'s ability to just work. You are arguing in favor of a spell that literally permits a DM to say "No, I'm sorry, the spell doesn't do that because you don't know/haven't seen/they aren't thematically appropriate", really any rationale whatsoever. If you only play with one or two DMs who are particularly generous, sure, it's not a problem for you. If you play with random DMs, DMs that are more strict, etc.? Then it is a problem.

In my mind, that alone elevates AO (Tiny) about Conjure Animals. Add in that they get at least one guaranteed attack (as you point out, apparently AoEs are far more common than my own anecdotal evidence), as opposed to having to roll their own Initiative.

Also as you noted, Velociraptors, while probably one of the top 5 summons you can use for CA, suffer from more weaknesses than AO (Tiny) given the lack of Fly, Blindsight, weaker against high AC. Does that make them weak? No, actually read what I've been writing, please. There are other monstrously powerful things you can do with your 5th level spell slot, up to and including completely writing off a Huge or smaller bad guy that doesn't have Disintegrate. Up-cast Banishment to wink out 2 enemies from the fight with a singular save, etc. CA at the 5th level is absolutely one of the stronger options. It's also not as good as AO (Tiny). That's the point I'm making, I'm sorry I had to spell it out so bluntly. I'm not disagreeing that CA is extremely strong.

[Zuras]

Just wanted to point out before continuing, that no, Dispel Magic does not shut down the whole spell. Sage Advice Compendium lays out that Dispel Magic impacts one Target, that's it. I agree that it probably should, but then you can imagine where some of the AO's would enter an AM field and be temporarily disabled, not all of them at one time if only 1 AO enters the field.


You can choose to target one magical effect, so dispelling the animate objects is still an option.

[RulesJD]

You can choose to target one magical effect, so dispelling the animate objects is still an option.

Sadly, nope. You're thinking of earlier versions (where Dispel Magic or or less worked like that).

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/732796836004691968
and
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1022951482604367875

It would end the spell (AO) on the Target (the stone/coin/statue/whatever). If it affected the entire spell itself, then you could Dispel the entire Bless spell as well.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You can choose to target one magical effect, so dispelling the animate objects is still an option.

That's not how it's usually construed. A "magical effect" for the purposes of the spell would be something like a Wall of Fire or a Bigbys Hand. You could dispel one of the animated objects, but not the whole mass of them.

[Zuras]

If we want to do a Conjure Animals vs AO (Tiny) separate discussion, I'm more than happy to have it. Conjure Animals, as I literally stated, is a magnificently strong spell. It's the natural casters Fireball/Spirit Guardians of its level, known to be far more powerful than it should otherwise be.

It is still not as good as AO (Tiny) for combat. All of the examples provided don't match AO (Tiny)'s ability to just work. You are arguing in favor of a spell that literally permits a DM to say "No, I'm sorry, the spell doesn't do that because you don't know/haven't seen/they aren't thematically appropriate", really any rationale whatsoever. If you only play with one or two DMs who are particularly generous, sure, it's not a problem for you. If you play with random DMs, DMs that are more strict, etc.? Then it is a problem.

In my mind, that alone elevates AO (Tiny) about Conjure Animals. Add in that they get at least one guaranteed attack (as you point out, apparently AoEs are far more common than my own anecdotal evidence), as opposed to having to roll their own Initiative.

Also as you noted, Velociraptors, while probably one of the top 5 summons you can use for CA, suffer from more weaknesses than AO (Tiny) given the lack of Fly, Blindsight, weaker against high AC. Does that make them weak? No, actually read what I've been writing, please. There are other monstrously powerful things you can do with your 5th level spell slot, up to and including completely writing off a Huge or smaller bad guy that doesn't have Disintegrate. Up-cast Banishment to wink out 2 enemies from the fight with a singular save, etc. CA at the 5th level is absolutely one of the stronger options. It's also not as good as AO (Tiny). That's the point I'm making, I'm sorry I had to spell it out so bluntly. I'm not disagreeing that CA is extremely strong.


I’m not disputing that Animate Objects is really strong, we agree on that. I’m just disputing that it is always the best combat spell in most circumstances. It’s definitely the best native Bard damage dealing spell at 5th level, but it simply isn’t head and shoulders above other options. I’m simply not seeing how you conclude that it is “always better”.

For lots of low CR enemies, an AoE is superior (Fireball//Spirit Guardians), for a handful of high AC/low Wisdom/Charisma foes, Banishment or incapacitating spells are better. For a nasty boss monster with high ac and non-magical damage resistance, Holy Weapon on the fighter’s greatsword might be better. Large numbers of summoned creatures are great when you want to dish out damage to a single enemy with modest AC or a small group. If Animate Objects is always your strongest spell against the enemies you encounter, you have a lack of encounter variety.

Depending on what you need tactically, Animate Objects often isn’t even better in combat than similar summoning type spells, like Conjure Elemental. An elemental can tank far better than a couple of ball bearings, and you can’t really set up an ambush with the Animate Objects given its one minute duration.

Regarding DM restrictions on Conjure Animals—I have played in AL with literally dozens of DMs, and it has never been a problem to the point of nerfing the spell. You should obviously not expect velociraptors every time, but any group of 8 CR 1/4 creatures is pretty stout. When you get 8 Giant Frogs instead because you’re fighting in the temple of the lost frog god, they still end up doing massive damage and taking hits so you don’t have to.

[Zuras]

Sadly, nope. You're thinking of earlier versions (where Dispel Magic or or less worked like that).

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/732796836004691968
and
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1022951482604367875

It would end the spell (AO) on the Target (the stone/coin/statue/whatever). If it affected the entire spell itself, then you could Dispel the entire Bless spell as well.


Well then...

Looks like the text of Dispel Magic collapses to incoherent mush when you apply it that way.

How can you target an Invisibility spell nearby to dispel it? Is the Invisibility spell the effect, or does the dispel randomly choose one invisible creature within range and attempt to dispel all spells on that creature? Or does this mean you can’t dispel Invisibility effects?

This interpretation is an inchoate mess—technically you can’t dispel a Bigby’s Hand or Spiritual Weapon, then, since the magical effect is itself the target. You would target the magical effect, then any spells ON the magical effect are dispelled. Since the Bigby’s Hand isn’t its own target (you didn’t cast it on the hand), any spells on it would be dispelled but the spell itself would remain.

These sorts of clarifications that don’t clear anything up drive me crazy.

I can see that the clear intent is to keep the entire party from drowning when their Water Breathing gets dispelled by an angry Merfolk wizard or something, but there is absolutely no clarity there on how to adjudicate how to target a magical effect separate from a creature.

[OverLordOcelot]

This interpretation is an inchoate mess—technically you can’t dispel a Bigby’s Hand or Spiritual Weapon, then, since the magical effect is itself the target. You would target the magical effect, then any spells ON the magical effect are dispelled. Since the Bigby’s Hand isn’t its own target (you didn’t cast it on the hand), any spells on it would be dispelled but the spell itself would remain.

There's a reason a lot of people I know simply ignore Crawford tweets.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Well then...

Looks like the text of Dispel Magic collapses to incoherent mush when you apply it that way.

How can you target an Invisibility spell nearby to dispel it? Is the Invisibility spell the effect, or does the dispel randomly choose one invisible creature within range and attempt to dispel all spells on that creature? Or does this mean you can’t dispel Invisibility effects?

This interpretation is an inchoate mess—technically you can’t dispel a Bigby’s Hand or Spiritual Weapon, then, since the magical effect is itself the target. You would target the magical effect, then any spells ON the magical effect are dispelled. Since the Bigby’s Hand isn’t its own target (you didn’t cast it on the hand), any spells on it would be dispelled but the spell itself would remain.

These sorts of clarifications that don’t clear anything up drive me crazy.

I can see that the clear intent is to keep the entire party from drowning when their Water Breathing gets dispelled by an angry Merfolk wizard or something, but there is absolutely no clarity there on how to adjudicate how to target a magical effect separate from a creature.

Dispel magic does not require sight. So when you know there's an invisible person around, you target them (which you can do as long as they're not hidden) and the invisibility goes bye bye.

[RulesJD]

Well then...

Looks like the text of Dispel Magic collapses to incoherent mush when you apply it that way.

How can you target an Invisibility spell nearby to dispel it? Is the Invisibility spell the effect, or does the dispel randomly choose one invisible creature within range and attempt to dispel all spells on that creature? Or does this mean you can’t dispel Invisibility effects?

This interpretation is an inchoate mess—technically you can’t dispel a Bigby’s Hand or Spiritual Weapon, then, since the magical effect is itself the target. You would target the magical effect, then any spells ON the magical effect are dispelled. Since the Bigby’s Hand isn’t its own target (you didn’t cast it on the hand), any spells on it would be dispelled but the spell itself would remain.

These sorts of clarifications that don’t clear anything up drive me crazy.

I can see that the clear intent is to keep the entire party from drowning when their Water Breathing gets dispelled by an angry Merfolk wizard or something, but there is absolutely no clarity there on how to adjudicate how to target a magical effect separate from a creature.

I mean in the case of Spiritual Weapon and Bigby's Hand, your "Target" is the manifestation of the spiritual weapon, and the Hand itself respectively. Dispel Magic works just fine against them. If you somehow had two SW/BH up at the same time from the same caster, then you would only Dispel one of the SW/BH.

Dispelling something like Telekinesis, where there is no physical manifestation of the spell, becomes a bit muddled. DM indiscretion, etc etc.

[Zuras]

I mean in the case of Spiritual Weapon and Bigby's Hand, your "Target" is the manifestation of the spiritual weapon, and the Hand itself respectively. Dispel Magic works just fine against them. If you somehow had two SW/BH up at the same time from the same caster, then you would only Dispel one of the SW/BH.

Dispelling something like Telekinesis, where there is no physical manifestation of the spell, becomes a bit muddled. DM indiscretion, etc etc.


I agree that simply dispelling the manifest magical effect is what should happen, but a close (perhaps overly exact) reading of the spell’s text would suggest differently. The text says spells on the target are dispelled, not that the target itself is dispelled (if it is a spell of 3rd level or lower, or the caster passes their check).

[Zuras]

Dispel magic does not require sight. So when you know there's an invisible person around, you target them (which you can do as long as they're not hidden) and the invisibility goes bye bye.

Right, but according to that reading of the spell, does the dispel against the Invisibility effect then also attempt to dispel all other spells on that creature? How does the target legally change from the effect to the creature? If the effect stays the target, how is that supposed to work?

How do you adjudicate what is one magical effect vs multiple? Spells like prestidigitation, which can have multiple concurrent effects, spell this out, but I haven’t read where in the rules it explains (for example) whether an upcast 3rd level Invisibility on two targets counts as two magical effects or one magical effect on two targets.

Seems like one of those fun cases where the rule is technically simple but makes no sense in many cases, like the difference between invisible and hidden.

Clear as mud.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Right, but according to that reading of the spell, does the dispel against the Invisibility effect then also attempt to dispel all other spells on that creature? How does the target legally change from the effect to the creature? If the effect stays the target, how is that supposed to work?

How do you adjudicate what is one magical effect vs multiple? Spells like prestidigitation, which can have multiple concurrent effects, spell this out, but I haven’t read where in the rules it explains (for example) whether an upcast 3rd level Invisibility on two targets counts as two magical effects or one magical effect on two targets.

Seems like one of those fun cases where the rule is technically simple but makes no sense in many cases, like the difference between invisible and hidden.

Clear as mud.

You can dispel any single effect, if you can distinguish it. OR you can dispel all spells affecting a particular target. And either way, you only get one target. Either a single effect (a wall of force, a Bigsby's Hand, a Spiritual Weapon), or one creature (in which case any multi-target spells affecting them are removed only for that character.

I don't understand how it can be clearer. The only available targeted dispel (hitting one effect only) is against spells that produce distinct, perceptible effects that can be targeted directly (so spell constructs). This is the minority of spells. Anything else, you have to hit all spells on a creature to hit any.

[RulesJD]

You can dispel any single effect, if you can distinguish it. OR you can dispel all spells affecting a particular target. And either way, you only get one target. Either a single effect (a wall of force, a Bigsby's Hand, a Spiritual Weapon), or one creature (in which case any multi-target spells affecting them are removed only for that character.

I don't understand how it can be clearer. The only available targeted dispel (hitting one effect only) is against spells that produce distinct, perceptible effects that can be targeted directly (so spell constructs). This is the minority of spells. Anything else, you have to hit all spells on a creature to hit any.

Small clarification, Wall of Force can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Small clarification, Wall of Force can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic.

Right. I forget which spells have that explicit clause in them. Substitute some other Wall spell then.

[Zuras]

You can dispel any single effect, if you can distinguish it. OR you can dispel all spells affecting a particular target. And either way, you only get one target. Either a single effect (a wall of force, a Bigsby's Hand, a Spiritual Weapon), or one creature (in which case any multi-target spells affecting them are removed only for that character.

I don't understand how it can be clearer. The only available targeted dispel (hitting one effect only) is against spells that produce distinct, perceptible effects that can be targeted directly (so spell constructs). This is the minority of spells. Anything else, you have to hit all spells on a creature to hit any.


This is a consistent and logically coherent interpretation, but where are you getting the idea that “magical effect” in the text of the spell means something different from what “magical effect” means when used elsewhere in the PHB? You want it to mean “magical effect not tied to an object or creature”, but that’s not what the spell says when listing legal targets.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is a consistent and logically coherent interpretation, but where are you getting the idea that “magical effect” in the text of the spell means something different from what “magical effect” means when used elsewhere in the PHB? You want it to mean “magical effect not tied to an object or creature”, but that’s not what the spell says when listing legal targets.

You have to be able to target it, so you need to be able to perceive it separately. Sure, if you have a creature-tied effect that creates ongoing, uniquely perceptible effects, you can dispel it separately. I guess you could combo with identify--the first to know what they are, the second to get rid of one particular one. But in most cases, you either want to purge all spells on a target or destroy a single stand-alone effect, rather than surgically purging one solitary effect tied to a person. So that's what the spell is set to do.