New Wizard ritual spell known

[Yenner]

I just wanted to ask if it's true that ritual spell known are not counted when determining the wizard spell known. I read in some Treantmonk guide that you can bypass that limitation.
Is it true?
Thanks!!

[Millstone85]

No, a wizard just doesn't need to prepare a spell to cast it as a ritual.

The spell does have to be in their spellbook.

[Maelynn]

It bypasses another limitation, namely that of the spell slots you have available each day. Rituals don't expend a spell slot.


You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook. You don't need to have the spell prepared.

The thing with knowing spells is that a wizard can copy a new spell into their spellbook if they encounter it. So technically a wizard has no limitation at all, they only have a set amount they start out with and a set amount they learn with each level up.

So you can have a ritual spell in your spell book either by choosing one when levelling, or by running into a scroll of said spell and then copying it into your book.

[Yenner]

It bypasses another limitation, namely that of the spell slots you have available each day. Rituals don't expend a spell slot.



The thing with knowing spells is that a wizard can copy a new spell into their spellbook if they encounter it. So technically a wizard has no limitation at all, they only have a set amount they start out with and a set amount they learn with each level up.

So you can have a ritual spell in your spell book either by choosing one when levelling, or by running into a scroll of said spell and then copying it into your book.

So, if I understand correctly when creating the PC even ritual spells must be counted in the max starting spell known (6 of lv 1), right?

[Zetakya]

A big part of the Wizard's power is the ability to ritual cast from the spellbook instead of from memory; of the (I think) 20 spells on the wizard list with the Ritual tag, the vast majority are not really going to suffer for taking 10 minutes to cast.

Some (such as Find Familiar) should never need to be memorized.

[Maelynn]

So, if I understand correctly when creating the PC even ritual spells must be counted in the max starting spell known (6 of lv 1), right?

Yes, that's correct. You start out with 6 lvl 1 wizard spells, regardless of their nature.

I think the confusion is created by the list of prepared spells a wizard can have each day. Basically, there's 3 different lists to keep track of:

- total number of spells in spellbook, aka spells known (no limit)
- number of spells you can have prepared each day (wizard level + int mod)
- number of spells you can cast each day (see table in PHB)

Now, when is it important that a spell has the ritual tag? Only for the 2nd and 3rd list. You don't have to have a ritual spell prepared, and when you do cast one it doesn't expend a slot.

[NatureKing]

Spells in the Spell Book are not 'aka' spells known. Spells Known is a different mechanic.

[Millstone85]

Spells in the Spell Book are not 'aka' spells known. Spells Known is a different mechanic.Indeed, a mechanic used by other classes, like the sorcerer.

Still, a wizard's spellbook does contain the spells they have learned.

[Maelynn]

Spells in the Spell Book are not 'aka' spells known. Spells Known is a different mechanic.

Only for other caster types, like Sorcerer or Warlock. For a Wizard, their spells known are 'whatever is in their book'. They are free to pick and choose from their entire book, unlike Sorcerer/Warlock who have their list of spells known.

[Zetakya]

You don't have to have a ritual spell prepared, and when you do cast one it doesn't expend a slot.

But it takes 10 minutes longer to cast.

In the case of Find Familiar that just takes it from 60 minutes to 70. But for Detect Magic that takes it from 3 seconds to 10 minutes. Trade-off.


Edit: and yeah, I'd avoid saying "Spells known" for Wizards; that's a specifically Charisma-Caster mechanic. "Spells in Book" and "Spells Memorized" are two separate parts of the spellcasting mechanics for Wizards in a way they aren't for Charisma-Casters.

"Spells in book" is a bit of a clunky phrase though

[Millstone85]

that's a specifically Charisma-Caster mechanic.It is also used by the ranger, whose spellcasting ability is Wisdom.

[Zetakya]

See I'd forgotten that because Rangers are terrible and I can't remember the last time I saw one played.

[NatureKing]

Only for other caster types, like Sorcerer or Warlock. For a Wizard, their spells known are 'whatever is in their book'. They are free to pick and choose from their entire book, unlike Sorcerer/Warlock who have their list of spells known.

Spells Known is a specific mechanic. By throwing out 'aka Spells known', you are confusing the difference.

Wizards do not know spells. Wizard spell books do not constitute spells known. They can prepare spells from their book. But the spell is not known.

I remember having this discussion before with someone and looking into it, but IIRC there was no mention of 'known' within the Wizard entry referring to spells.

[Lord Vukodlak]

But it takes 10 minutes longer to cast.

In the case of Find Familiar that just takes it from 60 minutes to 70. But for Detect Magic that takes it from 3 seconds to 10 minutes. Trade-off.


Edit: and yeah, I'd avoid saying "Spells known" for Wizards; that's a specifically Charisma-Caster mechanic. "Spells in Book" and "Spells Memorized" are two separate parts of the spellcasting mechanics for Wizards in a way they aren't for Charisma-Casters.

"Spells in book" is a bit of a clunky phrase though

I think the phrase you're looking for is
"Spells Transcribed" or maybe just "Spells Scribed"

[Maelynn]

I think the phrase you're looking for is
"Spells Transcribed" or maybe just "Spells Scribed"

I concur this might be a better name for it, because I forgot that a wizard needs their spellbook to be able to change the prepared spells. So basically, wizards don't know sh!t. :smallbiggrin:

Thought I'd use the term to make it easier to understand the difference between the 3 lists, didn't realise it'd cause such a discussion. I love this. :D

[Theodoxus]

The PHB simply calls spells in a wizard's spellbook "available spells."

"Scribed" is better nomenclature though, but at least WotC didn't used "known" for wizards, as that would have engendered a lot more confusion.

[Millstone85]

On the other hand, when the PHB explains how spells ared added to the spellbook, it refers to this as "learning" spells.

[Bjarkmundur]

This is one of my favourite hard things to understand about 5e. I can just imagine some person's head exploding trying to make sense of this xD
Once you get it, it feels very intuitive. Until then, it just sounds like everyone's talking gibberish. ^^

Spellbook?
Tome?
Prepared Spells?
Known Spells?
Ritual tag?
Spell List?
Wat?

I remember trying to wrap my head around magic initiate for the first time. I still get ringing in my ears when I think about it :/

The other hard thing I also love is wild shape. The the face of a brand-new player when he's hell-bent on playing a druid, and I show him all the creatures he can wild shape into, and the charop thread regarding druid shapes and summoning spells.


"Maybe I'll just play a cleric"

[Millstone85]

Spellbook?
Tome?
Prepared Spells?
Known Spells?
Ritual tag?
Spell List?
Wat?/Don't forget spell slots. Because everyone is a spontaneous caster now, the term "slot" is, in my opinion, nonsensical, and the source of much confusion.

They would be better referred to as "spell charges" or "mana nuggets". :smallsmile:

[Bjarkmundur]

Mana Nuggets
I'm using this from now on, and it's gonna take more than just throwing a DMG in my face to make me stop!

I once helped a player understand his wizard better by taking a MtG card collection binder thing, and printing out his spells. I'm a sucker for printouts and handouts.

"THESE are the spells in your spell book. You can move a set number of them from the back to the front, and those will be your PREPARED spells. Any spell in the back with the ritual tag can be cast during a short rest, but you can only use spell slots to cast the spells in the front. You can check your character sheet how many spell slots you have each day"

He felt like a ducking boss carrying his leather 'spellbook' into sessions.

"Show me what spells you've prepared for today"

He opens the book, and there's a single spell on the front page.

"Fireball"

Wat?

"Do I need anything else?"

lol

[Yenner]

Yes, that's correct. You start out with 6 lvl 1 wizard spells, regardless of their nature.

I think the confusion is created by the list of prepared spells a wizard can have each day. Basically, there's 3 different lists to keep track of:

- total number of spells in spellbook, aka spells known (no limit)
- number of spells you can have prepared each day (wizard level + int mod)
- number of spells you can cast each day (see table in PHB)

Now, when is it important that a spell has the ritual tag? Only for the 2nd and 3rd list. You don't have to have a ritual spell prepared, and when you do cast one it doesn't expend a slot.

You totally nailed the problem! Now I think I understan, even if they are called scribed spell or whatever. It's strange that these mechanics are so different from 3.5 (which I played for years), and I mean different in a bad sense :D
Other than that I'm having 0 problems with 5e.

[Chronos]

To expand on what Zetakya said:

If you have Detect Magic in your spellbook, then whether you have it prepared or not, you can cast it as a ritual. But if you want to cast it quickly, then you have to have it as one of your limited number of spells prepared for the day.

Also to expand a bit on the "spells known" thing, wizards do actually use the "spells known" mechanic... but only for cantrips. Cantrips do not work like other wizard spells. When you create your character, you learn a small number of cantrips, and henceforward always have those cantrips available. Occasionally when you level up, you'll learn more. But even when you level up, you can never change what cantrips you know. If, at first level, you picked Firebolt, Mage Hand, and Minor Illusion, then you'll always have Firebolt, Mage Hand, and Minor Illusion. If you didn't pick Ray of Frost, then you can't get it until the next time you learn a cantrip, and if you pick Ray of Frost then, you're stuck with that, too.