How good would a gestalt OA/CW samurai progression be, in a non gestalt campaign?

[Vrock Bait]

The title pretty much sums up my question. I also don’t really understand why OA’s weapon-based samurai is considered a tier higher than CW’s Intimidate based samurai, probably because of the lack of fluff in my opinion.

[ThatMoonGuy]

Intimidate is not a very good tactical resource, really. A great many mid to high level monsters are immune to fear and mind affecting effects and anything without an intelligence score also ignores it. And even against things that can be intimidated it's not that great a trick, really. So that isn't a gestalt that's doing too much and wouldn't suddenly make samurai good.

[AvatarVecna]

I also don’t really understand why OA’s weapon-based samurai is considered a tier higher than CW’s Intimidate based samurai, probably because of the lack of fluff in my opinion.


CW: "Every weekend, you have to eat cat**** sandwiches."

You: "Does it have to be cat****?"

CW: "Yes, but there's multiple flavors. You get one flavor this week, and you get another flavor next week, and so on."

You: "Can I pick what flavor of cat**** I get when?"

CW: "No, but it will be garnished with a giant pile of cayenne pepper."

You: "What if I don't like cayenne pepper?"

CW: "Then it sucks to be you."

You: "Can I at least have some water to wash it down with."

CW: "Does greywater count?"


OA: "Every weekend, you have to eat a **** sandwich."

You: "What kind of **** sandwich?"

OA: "Whatever kind you want. Has to be **** though."

You: "Hmm...I guess if I have to."

OA: "Also you get plenty of water to wash it down with."




OA
CW
Winner


HD
d10
d10
-


BAB
Full
Full
-


Fort
Good
Good
-


Ref
Bad
Bad
-


Will
Good
Bad
OA


SP/Lvl
4+I
2+I
OA


Class Skills
11
7
OA


Class Skills the other class doesn't have
6
2
OA


Skill points locked in under threat of wasted class features
0%
more than 0%, possibly 100%
OA


Bonus Feats
7
6
OA


Bonus Feats chosen by player
7
0
OA


Bonus Feats that work when not DWing both diasho weapons
7
2
OA


Bonus Feats whose prereqs can be ignored
0
0 (3 with above caveat)
CW


Heavy Armor
No (Crab: Yes)
Yes
CW


Percentage that explicitly get Diasho weapons for free
100%
less than 100%
OA


Can enchant Diasho without outside assistance
Yes
No
OA


Smites
None
More than OA, less than Paladin
CW


Intimidate Bonus
+0
+4
CW


AoE Intimidate
No
Yes
CW


Frightful Presence
No
Yes
CW


Code Of Conduct
Yes
Yes
-



If I'm gonna be eating **** sandwiches, I'll take the one that isn't failing all their will saves, isn't adding Wis and Cha to their MAD, isn't having skill points locked down to make use of class features by default, can theoretically get TWF on time if they want to use that style, doesn't have to use TWF with two different weapons, explicitly gets two masterwork weapons for free, and can explicitly enchant said weapons without outside help or any normal item-crafting mechanical requirements beyond money and time. Being able to make a group of people Shaken instead of just one with a standard action is a neat trick, but it's still eating up your standard and shaken's not a great condition on its own even assuming you face lots of people that don't have one of the more common immunities in the game.


The title pretty much sums up my question.

It'd be pretty comparable to a Zhentarim Fighter. That doesn't change the fact that it's a double-decker **** sandwich.

[illyahr]

There's also support for the OA samurai in a series of books published by the guys who made L5R (setting that OA was based on) so there are clan feats and additional abilities that the OA/L5R samurai can pick up, such as giving the samurai Sudden Strike, not slowed by armor, or boosts to the TWF skill tree.

[Eldariel]

Basically, CW Samurai is a pre-made fighter with terrible feats. Its only meaningful ability is Staredown and it come woefully late and is only ever relevant with Imperious Command (though then, it is quite good where it works and not-so-good against everything else; Intimidate is a bit funky due to lacks of definitions for what works against it but Fear-immunity at least does and it's fairly widespread). OA Samurai has something. It's not a good class but it's not a terrible one. Its things aren't superstrong but it at least has things while CW Samurai is shoehorned into a terrible fighting style and being **** at that too (because you're 5 levels late in your TWF feats - five levels! - you're better off just two-handing and ignoring your class features particularly if you're a heavy armor type as you probably are). Combining them gets you...OA Samurai that has Staredown. Which can be nice. It's a slightly better OA Samurai. Still a Tier 4 but a decent one at that. Comparable to the Fighter with good Will-saves and 4+Int skills and Iaijutsu Focus (which can range from useless to somewhat nice and even make your TWF gimmick do something if you ignore your Daisho stuff and use Gnomish Quickrazors).