How would you rate a magic weapon that gives you Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade?

[bendking]

How strong would such an item be? Would you rate it at uncommon/rare/higher? How much of a +X is reasonable for such an item?

[Cikomyr]

Magic items have a set Caster level. Would that be the case here, or would the cantrip power progress with the owner character level?

What's the weapon casting stat @?

[bendking]

Magic items have a set Caster level. Would that be the case here, or would the cantrip power progress with the owner character level?

What's the weapon casting stat @?

Both these cantrips scale with character level (as do all cantrips, I believe).
For casting stat, I would say either none, or your own casting modifier if you're a caster.

[Cikomyr]

Both these cantrips scale with character level (as do all cantrips, I believe).
For casting stat, I would say either none, or your own casting modifier if you're a caster.

GFB expresselly does damage base on the Caster stat modifier, so it's something important to figure out.

All cantrips scale with Character level, but usually objects don't. So the object will be more powerful if you allow scaling, hence me my asking.

[Maelynn]

You could give the item charges that renew at dawn. Then the wielder can do a bit of scaling, but not too much and not too often.

The weapon itself could be a +1 magic weapon, even without any charges spent.

Total charges: 4
Recharge at dawn: 1d4

1 charge = BB cantrip for 1d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +2 damage
2 charge = BB cantrip for 2d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +3 damage
3 charge = BB cantrip for 3d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +4 damage
4 charge = BB cantrip for 4d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +5 damage

When the charges drop to 0, roll a d20. On a 1, the weapon crumbles to dust.

[bendking]

GFB expresselly does damage base on the Caster stat modifier, so it's something important to figure out.

All cantrips scale with Character level, but usually objects don't. So the object will be more powerful if you allow scaling, hence me my asking.

GFB also does damage not related to caster level at level 5 and beyond, so I wouldn't put that much importance on it. Let's say it's without the stat modifier.
And yes, I want these weapons to scale with level, otherwise I think they'd be considerably worse than other magic weapons.


You could give the item charges that renew at dawn. Then the wielder can do a bit of scaling, but not too much and not too often.

The weapon itself could be a +1 magic weapon, even without any charges spent.

Total charges: 4
Recharge at dawn: 1d4

1 charge = BB cantrip for 1d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +2 damage
2 charge = BB cantrip for 2d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +3 damage
3 charge = BB cantrip for 3d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +4 damage
4 charge = BB cantrip for 4d8 damage or GFB cantrip for +5 damage

When the charges drop to 0, roll a d20. On a 1, the weapon crumbles to dust.

I actually meant either a weapon that gives you Booming Blade or a weapon that gives you GFB, not both.
I would think that a BB or GFB cantrip weapon without charges spent is pretty balanced as a +1 rare weapon.

[Aimeryan]

Can I just confirm you are talking about a weapon that grants you the use of the cantrip, not a weapon that always has the cantrip active (even if you were to use the Attack action)?

For the former, you could get the same without it being a weapon (a ring, amulet, whatever). Essentially it would be valued less than the racial cantrips, due to attunement and rigidness.

[bendking]

Can I just confirm you are talking about a weapon that grants you the use of the cantrip, not a weapon that always has the cantrip active (even if you were to use the Attack action)?

For the former, you could get the same without it being a weapon (a ring, amulet, whatever). Essentially it would be valued less than the racial cantrips, due to attunement and rigidness.

Indeed, only grants use of the cantrip. I agree it's quite rigid.
How highly would you rate a +1 magic weapon with this trait?

[Aimeryan]

Indeed, only grants use of the cantrip. I agree it's quite rigid.
How highly would you rate a +1 magic weapon with this trait?

Not very highly, given that there is an opportunity cost of not using another weapon instead. 1H rogues can get a lot of use out of it (Booming Blade, BA Disengage), however, for everyone else it would be pretty mediocre.

I would probably rate it at uncommon, although it might be better than a lot of rares for a 1H rogue, eh.

[Tanarii]

How highly would you rate a +1 magic weapon with this trait?
It's better than a flame blade or frost brand. So use those as the basis for your determination.

[Sparky McDibben]

It's better than a flame blade or frost brand. So use those as the basis for your determination.

Except I don't think it is, or rather, the utility varies by class. Let's look at a 20th level fighter and a 20th level War cleric, both with 18 Strength, a longsword, and each with a booming blade vs a flame blade. We'll use a 100% hit chance ignoring criticals to keep the math simple, and assume the Booming Blade's rider triggers.

Fighter:

Flame Blade:
(4 attacks x 4.5 (1d8 longsword)) + (4 x 4 (Strength bonus) + (4 x 7 (2d6 flame blade damage)) = 62 points of damage x 2 (Action Surge) = 124 points of damage.

Booming Blade:
(1 attack x 4.5 (1d8 longsword)) + (1 x 4 (Strength bonus) + (18 (4d8 Booming Blade rider)) = 26 points of damage x 2 (Action Surge) = 52 points of damage.

Cleric:

Flame Blade:
(2 attacks x 4.5 (1d8 longsword)) + (2 x 4 (Strength bonus)) + (1 x 9 (2d8 Divine Strike)) + (2 x 7 (2d6 flame blade damage)) = 30 points of damage.

Booming Blade:
(2 attacks x 4.5 (1d8 longsword)) + (2 x 4 (Strength bonus) + (1 x 9 (2d8 Divine Strike)) + (18 (4d8 Booming Blade rider)) = 44 points of damage.

Obviously this is an extremely simplistic analysis, but it highlights how much more potent items are that stack damage when you have more attacks, which is the whole reason cantrips scale up. So I'd go with uncommon, maybe, but not rare, unless you have any Arcana clerics in your party.

[Tanarii]

Obviously this is an extremely simplistic analysis, but it highlights how much more potent items are that stack damage when you have more attacks, which is the whole reason cantrips scale up.You don't rate a magic item on who gets the least utility out of it. Otherwise a Flameblade would be uncommon because Str dumping Wizards can't use it effectively. We're talking about giving one of the three most powerful combat cantrips out at-will and scaling with character level. That's Feat/ASI level power, which is an epic boon. Alternatively it's the primary reason people spend an entire level multiclassing.


So I'd go with uncommon, maybe, but not rare, unless you have any Arcana clerics in your party.
A Weapon +1 is already uncommon. You need revisit your assessment.

[Galithar]

I would rate as uncommon with a +0
+1 as rare
+2 as very rare
+3 as legendary

The addition of the cantrip is nice, but comparing them to others (like the flame blade) it is going to be less powerful in the hands of the people that are strongest in melee. It would be a good boost to someone that only gets 1 attack per round, but most of them are going to be looking for ways to pick up the cantrip anyways. A melee Cleric is far more likely to pick it up early through a racial cantrip or Magic Initiate then a Fighter, so if the Cleric is your intended recipient (or any single attack character) I would drop it to them before they've made the investment on their own.

It's a good weapon that many characters would like to have, but it's nothing game changing for any of them. Except MAYBE a rogue. The extra damage and ability to BA disengage makes BB very potent in their hands. Even more so if they have mobile or are a swashbuckler.

Alternatively increase the rarity by 1 level if it is useable without attunement (which it probably shouldn't be, but depending on the level of items in the game and the expected power level of the group it's not too hard to change these things without breaking your game)

Edit: I would also recommend having the item have a set modifier that it uses if you do GFB. Just say "This weapon allows you to cast GFB at will. This cantrip scales with your character level and uses (Wis/Int/Cha) as your casting ability. [You may replace this with your class casting ability if you have one]"

Last sentence in brackets would be optional if you want them to be able to use their best stat if they are already a caster. The modifier damage is important to GFB, especially at low levels. Tier one and two is where it's most important, though it can still boost your average in higher tiers.

[Sparky McDibben]

You don't rate a magic item on who gets the least utility out of it. Otherwise a Flameblade would be uncommon because Str dumping Wizards can't use it effectively. We're talking about giving one of the three most powerful combat cantrips out at-will and scaling with character level. That's Feat/ASI level power, which is an epic boon. Alternatively it's the primary reason people spend an entire level multiclassing.


A Weapon +1 is already uncommon. You need revisit your assessment.

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm saying that flatly stating "This cantrip is better than X or Y" doesn't work. We don't know who will wind up wielding it, so we can't make definitive statements about power levels ordinally, much less cardinally. Ergo, your ranking basis is invalid. As for the point about a cantrip being one of the three most-powerful cantrips in the game, no, it's not. Cantrip power fluctuates wildly depending on circumstances. And technically, Booming Blade is only part of the benefits we receive for a feat or multiclass level. OP clearly has a person in mind for this item, and they seem to be using the item rating system to rank power, not rarity. Therefore, let's make sure we call out what this item could do to different types of characters.

[DrKerosene]

Gaining access to a Cantrip is a minor benificial property from the artifacts table, usually you get a couple of the abilities on one artifact (and some major ones too).

Xanathars has those 50gp minor items that allow you to make a Concentration check to try to cast a cantrip (you don’t know) 1/day.

Both should require attunement. I wouldn’t consider gaining a Cantrip to be worth more than a Rare Magic Item (assuming it still takes attunement).

I’ve been planning on just granting these two cantrips to my two players as “Boons”. One each, thematically appropriate and all.

[Aimeryan]

You don't rate a magic item on who gets the least utility out of it. Otherwise a Flameblade would be uncommon because Str dumping Wizards can't use it effectively. We're talking about giving one of the three most powerful combat cantrips out at-will and scaling with character level. That's Feat/ASI level power, which is an epic boon. Alternatively it's the primary reason people spend an entire level multiclassing.


A Weapon +1 is already uncommon. You need revisit your assessment.

Magic Initiate is a feat that grants 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell; hence, it is not feat level. Third of a feat, maybe.

+1 and the ability to use a cantrip does not push it to rare, for me.

[bendking]

Magic Initiate is a feat that grants 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell; hence, it is not feat level. Third of a feat, maybe.

+1 and the ability to use a cantrip does not push it to rare, for me.

I do agree. A third of a feat is not a big deal.
And considering this is mostly good for melee combatants that don't have extra attack, the power level of this item is quite limited, as it mostly allows some players to kind of play catch-up with others at most.

[NatureKing]

Magic Initiate is a feat that grants 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell; hence, it is not feat level. Third of a feat, maybe.

+1 and the ability to use a cantrip does not push it to rare, for me.

It is often the primary reason of taking the feat, though. The 1st level slot and additional cantrip are usually filler.

If you are giving a character this weapon, they would not need the +1. The GFB/BB component provides the damage. The +1 to hit isn't necessary, and just seen like power creep. Make it an attunement weapon and call it late T2 worthy.

Have a way in game for the item to become a +X though.

[Aimeryan]

It is often the primary reason of taking the feat, though. The 1st level slot and additional cantrip are usually filler.

If you are giving a character this weapon, they would not need the +1. The GFB/BB component provides the damage. The +1 to hit isn't necessary, and just seen like power creep. Make it an attunement weapon and call it late T2 worthy.

Have a way in game for the item to become a +X though.

Late T2 is probably too late for this weapon; 1H rogues will have already had multiple opportunities to have picked up the cantrip by this point and those ways cannot be refunded (except by DM fiat).

Attunement, uncommon, no +X. That seems reasonable.

[bendking]

Late T2 is probably too late for this weapon; 1H rogues will have already had multiple opportunities to have picked up the cantrip by this point and those ways cannot be refunded (except by DM fiat).

Attunement, uncommon, no +X. That seems reasonable.

When would you drop? I would say probably before level 4, to avoid Magic Initiate.

[Tanarii]

When would you drop? I would say probably before level 4, to avoid Magic Initiate.i wouldn't give it before early T3. It's at least as good as a +2 weapon. Obviously its better than that, but thats the bare minimum it should be rated as. And T3 is when you have a solid chance of seeing +2 weapons.

[Sparky McDibben]

I wouldn't give that out before level 5.

If you're worried about invalidating a player's choices, I would talk to the players and let them know if they choose a feat they later regret they can retrain during downtime. (That's a house rule, by the way - not RAW).

[Willie the Duck]

It is often the primary reason of taking the feat, though. The 1st level slot and additional cantrip are usually filler.

Very much so. I've known more than a few characters who have taken MI mostly for Booming Blade, and the rest is just gravy.

For the most part, I think what the weapon does is that you don't have to bother with whatever hoop you jumped through to get BB, be it selecting Arcane trickster rogue (instead of thief or scout or such), being a high elf, or picking up MI (delaying whatever else by up to 4 levels. If you are a class what has decent AC and likely a decent melee attack stat, BB turns your melee attack from an participation ribbon (that doesn't scale up the fighters and such do) to a semi-competitive also-ran. A cleric who has the SW/SG combo up probably ought to just dodge with their main action after a certain level, but with this ability (plus the concentration being protected by the War Caster and/or Resilient:con feats they can afford to take, given that they have this ASI-free) them attacking even at high levels is a reasonable decision. In that regard it can sort of make or break a build, and as such is at least fairly powerful.

[Rukelnikov]

IMO it's comparable to a Flame Blade, probable less powerful, but its uniqueness would put it in the same tier, don't remember Flame Blade's rarity but that's what I would go with.

[Havoc With A K]

Late T2 is probably too late for this weapon; 1H rogues will have already had multiple opportunities to have picked up the cantrip by this point and those ways cannot be refunded (except by DM fiat).

Attunement, uncommon, no +X. That seems reasonable.

See, this is why you tailor your items to the characters in the game.

1. Why are you granting Build enabling Magic Items? That leaves the character not using Build Enabling item is a lesser space than that character who has said 'DM, can I use a Shield Master/Great Weapon Fighter Character?' Or 'DM, I want to cast Booming Blade, but I don't want to take one of the ways of doing so'
2. You have a Booming Blade using character. Why would you want to provide an item that can tread on their toes
3. You have Booming Blade using Character. Why would you want to give someone the ability to do soemthi g that character has already spent their limited resources on.
4. You have a Booming Blade character. Why would you not want to support their style of play? Give them an improved Booming Blade. Perhaps as simple as a +X weapon, to a bit more complicated and synergystic like say, 1/short rest, you can use your Reaction to Cast Compelled Duel on a creature you have hit with a melee attack, or you can use your Bonus Action to cast Booming Blade if you have already taken the attack action on your turn.
4. If you have limited retraining, why not ask the person who spent their limited resource on Booming Blade what else they would rather spend that limited resource on if they could but already had BB. Why go through the rigmarole of justifying 'forgetting' something when you are simply giving them a free bonus?
5. Why not make the BB improving item require Booming Blade as a known cantrip.

[Aimeryan]

See, this is why you tailor your items to the characters in the game.

1. Why are you granting Build enabling Magic Items? That leaves the character not using Build Enabling item is a lesser space than that character who has said 'DM, can I use a Shield Master/Great Weapon Fighter Character?' Or 'DM, I want to cast Booming Blade, but I don't want to take one of the ways of doing so'
2. You have a Booming Blade using character. Why would you want to provide an item that can tread on their toes
3. You have Booming Blade using Character. Why would you want to give someone the ability to do soemthi g that character has already spent their limited resources on.
4. You have a Booming Blade character. Why would you not want to support their style of play? Give them an improved Booming Blade. Perhaps as simple as a +X weapon, to a bit more complicated and synergystic like say, 1/short rest, you can use your Reaction to Cast Compelled Duel on a creature you have hit with a melee attack, or you can use your Bonus Action to cast Booming Blade if you have already taken the attack action on your turn.
4. If you have limited retraining, why not ask the person who spent their limited resource on Booming Blade what else they would rather spend that limited resource on if they could but already had BB. Why go through the rigmarole of justifying 'forgetting' something when you are simply giving them a free bonus?
5. Why not make the BB improving item require Booming Blade as a known cantrip.

I agree with this, to be honest. I don't really care for build-enabling items unless you can guarantee them at the time you need them. This is why I would rate this weapon as uncommon and drop early, since otherwise you are making the players gamble on whether they will get it or make permanent decisions before that which makes the weapon useless when it does drop.

I have the same issue with the gauntlets of ogre strength and the like - you can spend levels/ASIs doing what they do only for some to then drop and the guy who spent his resources on something else now matches you and more. Note that these are uncommon and in AL can be bought guaranteed early for little cost - this is also how this weapon would work for me as a DM.