Half fiend overpowered?!?

[Roninblack]

So I'm currently building a BBeG who is a half fiendish great red wyrm for the final boss to wrap up a 1-20 I've been doing, and I stumbled upon this text from half fiend which states for it's SLA's that "Caster Level equals HD"
But the template is on a 40 HD dragon! This means that If he uses the blasphemy SLA the entire party dies without a save even at 20th level???

*Edit* if i switch out the SLA for something else what would be fitting power and flavor wise? The dragon is a meldshaper focused on soul manipulation if that helps with flavor ideas.

[animewatcha]

So then don't use it. Maybe the dragon has too much pride to 'so easily' wipe out his enemies?

[Roninblack]

I think that's my only option, is it legal RAW?

[MisterKaws]

Yep. These templates are just ridiculous like that. And usually, people tend to houserule all the Holy Word-like spells out of existence exactly because of this sort of thing. They're better off not having existed, unless you change them to Will save, in which case it just overlaps with thousands of other spells.

[Venger]

yes a red dragon is a legal target for the half fiend template. your reading of how CL 40 blasphemy would work is correct, but as advised upthread just... don't do that if you actually want to play dnd with your friends.

[Mike Miller]

Swap out that SLA for something else, then. It is rules legal, but if you will TPK the party just don't. You want a challenge for the end of the campaign, not "lol you lose."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes, it's completely legit. Half-Fiend is what I recommend for fixing the Tarrasque, due to this and other things it would gain. It basically requires the party to research the famous monster ahead of time and be prepared for its well-known special attacks. Every standard half-fiend gets access to the same spell-like abilities, just knowing that's what it is should be enough information, but don't be afraid to throw in stories about other powerful adventurers who confronted it and were dispatched without even putting up a fight.

Blasphemy is SR: Yes, so Greater Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunityGreater.htm) is a must-have for any party that seeks to confront it. It also gets Destruction, Horrid Wilting, Unholy Blight... You can pick one spell per four caster levels for what the target's immune to, so get the party covered for anything it would use. That lasts 10 minutes/level, so around three hours, but they can (Rod of) Extend it if they think it needs to be longer.

[johnbragg]

Do you need to apply the half-fiendish template to a great wyrm red? At that level, the only stuff that really matters is the SLAs. A great wyrm red is already a 19th level caster--you could easily rule that the Dragon MM/SRD entry text overrides the template text. A Dragon's caster level is specific, which trumps the General of the half-fiend entry.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'd put in portents, divination, and even intervention by other beings like deities or opponents of the dragon to warn them they will need Greater Spell Immunity.

Maybe even a quest where they find the ghosts of those who failed against the dragon in the past, who can give them the information they need.

[MisterKaws]

Do you need to apply the half-fiendish template to a great wyrm red? At that level, the only stuff that really matters is the SLAs. A great wyrm red is already a 19th level caster--you could easily rule that the Dragon MM/SRD entry text overrides the template text. A Dragon's caster level is specific, which trumps the General of the half-fiend entry.

The caster level given in the Dragon entry is valid for Dragon abilities. The caster level given in the Half-Fiend entry is valid for Half-Fiend abilities. They don't override each other because there is no overlap. For example, if said Half-Fiend Dragon took Night Haunt(gives SLAs at CL 1), its caster level for the Night Haunt SLAs would still be 1, not 40, because they're from another source.

[emeraldstreak]

If the lvl 20 party is unoptimized enough to lose to a no save spell...

[Roninblack]

Thanks. Greater spell immunity good to know.

As for putting the template on there, I'm running a 3.0 module path and attempting to update to 3.5, and that's how it was built in the module.

The party is moderately optimized, but for combat, not for high level play. this is the first time we've gotten here.

I am going to be giving it 19 levels of totemist shaping and class features instead of 19 levels of casting (for fluff reasons) so that should help with the power disparity a little bit.

[Eldariel]

Yes, Blasphemy-line is potentially very dangerous. That said, the spell line has:
- Sonic descriptor
- SR
- Giant "Be immune to me!"-tag on it

As such, I wouldn't be too worried. Caster level pumping as a (particularly evil) Cleric is quite easy and Blasphemy is online on level 13 so if the party is unprepared, chances are they've wiped long ago. There are ways to defend against the effects, the lowest level version of which is Silence (though RAW Blasphemy might bypass it but given the Sonic-tag, I'd say that's an oversight and I'd run it so that the Blasphemy has to be heard). A rock with Silence cast on it carried with the party makes the whole party immune.

It also (probably) doesn't affect Constructs as it doesn't specify that they are destroyed and they can't be slain. So Polymorph Any Object can render the whole party invulnerable as a part of the standard immunity package of e.g. Marut (though you'd still get Dazed unless you have specific immunity to that). Shapechange can of course also accomplish this via a number of ways, most direct of which is Magic Immunity (also Magic Jar can be used to the same effect much earlier, but it's a bit trickier and a more permanent arrangement).

[Mr Adventurer]

I am going to be giving it 19 levels of totemist shaping and class features instead of 19 levels of casting (for fluff reasons) so that should help with the power disparity a little bit.

I don't know Incarnum well but I imagine this would (a) be a massive nerf and (b) of course do nothing to handle the problem you originally identified with Blasphemy.

All fine so long as you reduce CR accordingly and give them the info they need, as discussed.

[Roninblack]

If i were to just swap it out for another SLA, what do you think would be fitting power and flavor wise?

[Eldariel]

Avasculate [Spell Compendium] is a nice option: a strong, evil spell but one with a save and that's a single-target and less "all or nothing" (or Avascular Mass if you want AOE).

[Buufreak]

If your running logic is "X is overpowered because it has Y," might I suggest changing your opinion to a much shorter "Y is overpowered." Helps to cut out any middle men while also being founded on sturdier ground.

That out of the way, as everyone has stated, yes, Blasphemy is a bruiser of a spell. Its also completely countered by a Silence spell.

[Elkad]

I wouldn't count on Greater Spell Immunity, though it's better than nothing.

It's Dispellable, and if the enemy has Heighten (SLA), it's not going to save you. (Though I'd allow a Heightened Greater Spell Immunity, or even a Heightened regular Spell Immunity to work - which is a grey area in the rules)
Best to layer on Sonic immunity, or just a few Silence rocks in your gear for the melee types. And basic AoE defenses, keep the party spread out.

Have ways to fix it of course. Revivify+Heal works. Miracle works on the whole party (less the one guy casting of course).

[MisterKaws]

If i were to just swap it out for another SLA, what do you think would be fitting power and flavor wise?

Avasculate as Eldariel mentioned or Final Rebuke are good candidates for a replacement. As long as the majority of the party survives the encounter the remaining can still revive the ones who die. Though Final Rebuke might be a bit weak if your party is the sort that min-maxes resistances against mind effects.

[Particle_Man]

The horizon walker is suddenly looking very attractive. :smallcool:

And if are accessing Magic of Incarnum why not use an Incarnum Dragon?

[Roninblack]

Those are both useful, thank you.

[Thurbane]

There's also the articles on variant Half-Fiends, so that not every Half-Fiend has to have Blasphemy.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a

[Mr Adventurer]

The horizon walker is suddenly looking very attractive. :smallcool:

And if are accessing Magic of Incarnum why not use an Incarnum Dragon?

Presumably it is the adventure path with Ashardalon, who has a specific background and history.

[MisterKaws]

Presumably it is the adventure path with Ashardalon, who has a specific background and history.

It was pretty obvious that it's Ashardalon.

I mean, how many Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red Dragons exist? And how many of them also just happen to have a relationship with soul manipulation?

[Kish]

Bastion of Broken Souls is notorious for being a meat grinder far worse than Tomb of Horrors, because it's chock-full of "you don't actually have a chance here" stuff like this. If you want an authentic conversion, by all means, let Ashardalon blink and slaughter the party, in the extremely unlikely event they reach him. If you want a fun playable module...you'll want to make a lot of changes.

[Roninblack]

If you want a fun playable module...you'll want to make a lot of changes.

What other changes would you recommend?
I am Running Bastion, I just didn't want to figure out spoiler tags, so I was being generic

[Bronk]

What other changes would you recommend?
I am Running Bastion, I just didn't want to figure out spoiler tags, so I was being generic

If you're already running the adventure that closely to how it's printed, I think you'd be fine following the tactics they spell out for Ashardalon on pages 31 and 40. He's got specific sets spells that he casts before, then during battle, and the same goes for his SLAs. He'll take longer than it suggests in the book to cast them because you'll need to update his haste from 3.0 to 3.5. He then avoids hitting one of the characters with area affects (further protection from blasphemy), and wastes more time breathing fire even though he assumes they're protected against it.

If not... You could just switch him to 'fiendish', or just not cast blasphemy for some other reason, like having non-evil minions or prisoners around that he doesn't want to kill yet.

[Anthrowhale]

A Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red Dragon is CR29 which is supposed to routinely curbstomp a level 20 party. For example, perhaps it flies near, casts Disjunction (stripping all spell defenses), and then uses Celerity to execute a level 40 Blasphemy for a no-defense-party-dies combo.

A good boss is maybe CR 24, which would fit a Half-Fiend Very Old Red Dragon with 31HD. The dragon still has a killer Blasphemy, but it lacks the ability to strip off magical defenses since it's only caster level 13. The dragon will probably also have alternate lines of attack around Antimagic Field, Polymorph, Celerity, Arcane Fusion, potent minions, and excellent intelligence to exploit whatever vulnerability the party has.

[Eldariel]

A Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red Dragon is CR29 which is supposed to routinely curbstomp a level 20 party. For example, perhaps it flies near, casts Disjunction (stripping all spell defenses), and then uses Celerity to execute a level 40 Blasphemy for a no-defense-party-dies combo.

A good boss is maybe CR 24, which would fit a Half-Fiend Very Old Red Dragon with 31HD. The dragon still has a killer Blasphemy, but it lacks the ability to strip off magical defenses since it's only caster level 13. The dragon will probably also have alternate lines of attack around Antimagic Field, Polymorph, Celerity, Arcane Fusion, potent minions, and excellent intelligence to exploit whatever vulnerability the party has.

Though this is a level where CR has completely broken down. What you described is nothing a level 17 Red Wizard of Thay couldn't do in spite of being full 10 CR lower. Similarly, simple Battlemagic Perception from 4 party casters would practically guarantee nothing ever happens. A full party of level 20 casters would, due to action economy, curbstomp a Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red, Blasphemy or no. Blasphemy isn't nearly the worst they've dealt with by this point and there are just way too many ways to gain extra actions and act faster that simply having 3 extra sets of actions is worth way, way more than anything the Dragon can bring on the table.

[Mr Adventurer]

Though this is a level where CR has completely broken down. What you described is nothing a level 17 Red Wizard of Thay couldn't do in spite of being full 10 CR lower. Similarly, simple Battlemagic Perception from 4 party casters would practically guarantee nothing ever happens. A full party of level 20 casters would, due to action economy, curbstomp a Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red, Blasphemy or no. Blasphemy isn't nearly the worst they've dealt with by this point and there are just way too many ways to gain extra actions and act faster that simply having 3 extra sets of actions is worth way, way more than anything the Dragon can bring on the table.

You can't counterspell Spell-like Abilities.

[Anthrowhale]

Though this is a level where CR has completely broken down. What you described is nothing a level 17 Red Wizard of Thay couldn't do in spite of being full 10 CR lower. Similarly, simple Battlemagic Perception from 4 party casters would practically guarantee nothing ever happens. A full party of level 20 casters would, due to action economy, curbstomp a Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red, Blasphemy or no. Blasphemy isn't nearly the worst they've dealt with by this point and there are just way too many ways to gain extra actions and act faster that simply having 3 extra sets of actions is worth way, way more than anything the Dragon can bring on the table.

Yeah, I'm just disagreeing with the thesis that CR 29 monster TPKs L20 party -> CR 29 monster is overpowered. A highly optimized L20 party is certainly a serious threat to a single CR29 monster.

Side Tangent: Time Stop seems to defeat Battlemagic Perception since everyone else is explicitly "frozen" so they can't execute any actions, even free ones. Hence: Time Stop >100' away, approach, Disjunction, ready[Blasphemy] is a more refined application of the same basic approach.

[Yogibear41]

Why not use an incarnum dragon instead of a red dragon?

Also you could drop heavy hints going into the fight about what the players would face, so they could have a defense vs its Blasphemy.

[Particle_Man]

Option: have a team of paladins get there first just in time for the party to see them eat the blasphemy; have it be a 1x/day effect if it isn’t already.

[MisterKaws]

Why not use an incarnum dragon instead of a red dragon?

Also you could drop heavy hints going into the fight about what the players would face, so they could have a defense vs its Blasphemy.

Cause then it's not Ashardalon.

[Particle_Man]

Cause then it's not Ashardalon.

It is if the DM says it is. It is their game.

[MisterKaws]

It is if the DM says it is. It is their game.

B-but it's not red!!!

[Mr Adventurer]

It is if the DM says it is. It is their game.

Right, but thwarting player expectations like that doesn't always work out, it's got to be approached carefully and not glibly. It's not just the DM's game after all, but the whole group's.

Plus you start having to make other setting tweaks, like there's a special location called Ashardalon's tongue, it's a permanent flowing river of magma. You'd probably want to change that if you were changing the dragon.

[tyckspoon]

B-but it's not red!!!

This is true, everybody knows Incarnum is blue :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

You can't counterspell Spell-like Abilities.
9a
There are few cases where that's arguable, but that's not what you want to go for. You can (and should) counter Disjunction and be immune to everything else.


Yeah, I'm just disagreeing with the thesis that CR 29 monster TPKs L20 party -> CR 29 monster is overpowered. A highly optimized L20 party is certainly a serious threat to a single CR29 monster.

Side Tangent: Time Stop seems to defeat Battlemagic Perception since everyone else is explicitly "frozen" so they can't execute any actions, even free ones. Hence: Time Stop >100' away, approach, Disjunction, ready[Blasphemy] is a more refined application of the same basic approach.

You should use Delay Spell to trigger the Disjunction after the Time Stop as other creatures are explicitly unable to be affected by things cast during Time Stop; otherwise, yeah, that's a basic offensive strategy on this level. Same with Time Stop for Maw of Chaos spam or some mail bombs with AMF next to the enemies or whatever. I suggest rod Maximized Time Stop with Shapechange to double your actions off Chronotyryn and then approaching in Time Stop through Greater Teleport to ~500' away (note though, any of these plans requires advance knowledge of the targets without the targets being aware of your presence), using flight or Phantom Steed or anything to close the distance and opening up with some Delayed spell effects including 5 Disjunctions. Of course, the party still has a 4-1 action advantage so once Celerities and Foresights come to play, the situation gets a tad more complex and, as always, the party with the initiative has the advantage (in other words, the game has moved away from the tactical to the realm of strategic information gathering and planning, which is where Divinations shine).

Whether Contingencies go off before Delayed spells cast in Time Stop is a point of some contention, but ultimately that's about the best you can do without a more refined offensive toolkit. The key is getting a Disjunction to land: if you successfully Disjoin someone, killing them is largely academic (though at best activates one of their Clones that can be back at you within 6 seconds, so it only costs them a level).

[Anthrowhale]

You should use Delay Spell to trigger the Disjunction after the Time Stop as other creatures are explicitly unable to be affected by things cast during Time Stop; otherwise, yeah, that's a basic offensive strategy on this level.

My understanding is that Disjunction inside of Time Stop works better than Disjunction outside of Time Stop since:
(a) when cast inside of Time Stop it doesn't affect itemsloot.
(b) all responses involving actions don't work due to the 'frozen' condition.

Of course, it's not as complete since item defenses ("You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature") and summoned monsters ("other creatures are invulnerable to your ... spells") remain intact. Nevertheless, stripping spell defenses is often good enough.

I'm unclear on whether Contingency works. It can't work by detecting someone in Time Stop ("You are undetectable while time stop lasts.") and in general I've always treated it as unable to trigger based on senses you do not have since otherwise it becomes a super-divination.

[Eldariel]

My understanding is that Disjunction inside of Time Stop works better than Disjunction outside of Time Stop since:
(a) when cast inside of Time Stop it doesn't affect itemsloot.
(b) all responses involving actions don't work due to the 'frozen' condition.

Of course, it's not as complete since item defenses ("You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature") and summoned monsters ("other creatures are invulnerable to your ... spells") remain intact. Nevertheless, stripping spell defenses is often good enough.

I'm unclear on whether Contingency works. It can't work by detecting someone in Time Stop ("You are undetectable while time stop lasts.") and in general I've always treated it as unable to trigger based on senses you do not have since otherwise it becomes a super-divination.

Well, it's arguable whether Disjunction actually does anything if not Delayed. If you allow Disjunction in Time Stop to remove spell-based defenses, you make a superstrong effect even stronger, so I'd tend to disallow it on principle, but the RAW might let that fly. Anyways, I'd assume the Dragon is more likely to be a recipient than the initiator of such an attack in a 4-on-1 action supremacy situation. Though items not being destroyed will probably lead to simple Revivify Contingency trigger on all participants.

[Particle_Man]

This is true, everybody knows Incarnum is blue :smalltongue:

Can we compromise on purple? Actually one of the cool features of the incarnum dragons is that regardless of alignment they are the same colour.

[Anthrowhale]

... but the RAW might let that fly.
I don't see anything in Time Stop which interferes with Disjunction vs. spells unless spells create items or creatures.

Anyways, I'd assume the Dragon is more likely to be a recipient than the initiator of such an attack in a 4-on-1 action supremacy situation.
Action supremacy doesn't seem to matter so much here---it's information supremacy which matters. Comparing the information gathering resources of a party of 4 L20 PCs to a CR29 monster, which has more?

Though items not being destroyed will probably lead to simple Revivify Contingency trigger on all participants.
Craft Contingent Spell? That plausibly works since it's described as an item.

[Crake]

I don't see anything in Time Stop which interferes with Disjunction vs. spells unless spells create items or creatures.

Action supremacy doesn't seem to matter so much here---it's information supremacy which matters. Comparing the information gathering resources of a party of 4 L20 PCs to a CR29 monster, which has more?

Craft Contingent Spell? That plausibly works since it's described as an item.

Arguably, dispelling magical effects on a creature would count as affecting said creature, since you are creating a change in their state.

[Eldariel]

Action supremacy doesn't seem to matter so much here---it's information supremacy which matters. Comparing the information gathering resources of a party of 4 L20 PCs to a CR29 monster, which has more?

Obviously the PCs on any sub-infinite game-relevant level (which they all have access to easily through Elemental Weird and any number of action loops but let's ignore that for a moment) have more since they have more slots and actions per day for information gathering. That does not, of course, tell the whole story: a Great Wyrm is immeasurably old meaning it's been doing it for thousands of years while most PCs, elves, elans and such not withstanding, are at most few hundred years old. However, of course longer life brings more enemies and more things to gather information on so that doesn't answer the question of the amount of information relevant to this particular encounter, which in turn is a matter of the engagement framework: who has what information, what are the goals of each side, etc. In the case of the adventure in question, Ashardalon seems to have its hands full dealing with Demogorgon and most things in the multiverse in general, so only a fraction of its actions are available for dealing with the PCs until it figures out it's the PCs specifically who are going to engage it in its Bastion (at what point does this become deterministic? Hard to say, depends on the nature of the D&D universe, but its philosophical foundations have never been explicitly set out far as I know).

[Anthrowhale]

Arguably, dispelling magical effects on a creature would count as affecting said creature, since you are creating a change in their state.

Ruling that cast spells are changes of state feels like manufacturing rules to me. The key question is: Are cast spells "things" or just state changes to things?

Looking at Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm):
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. The phrasing is consistent with a cast spell being a thing that dispel magic acts upon rather than forced changes of state for objects or creatures.

Another example is provided by Antimagic Field. When you walk into an Antimagic Field do you change state? Or do the spells get suppressed?
An antimagic field suppresses any spell ... used within... Again, we have language about a spell being a primary thing acted upon rather than forced changes of state for objects or creatures.

I'm not aware of any evidence that cast noninstantaneous spells are state changes.

[Crake]

Ruling that cast spells are changes of state feels like manufacturing rules to me. The key question is: Are cast spells "things" or just state changes to things?

Looking at Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm): The phrasing is consistent with a cast spell being a thing that dispel magic acts upon rather than forced changes of state for objects or creatures.

Another example is provided by Antimagic Field. When you walk into an Antimagic Field do you change state? Or do the spells get suppressed? Again, we have language about a spell being a primary thing acted upon rather than forced changes of state for objects or creatures.

I'm not aware of any evidence that cast noninstantaneous spells are state changes.

Upon re-reading time stop, I previously thought it said that you cannot affect other creatures, but it's actual wording is "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell." Under that wording, it does indeed seem to be that you can disjoin/dispel spell effects on the, since they aren't the target of the spell.