Improved Familiar, Former Familiar?

[A_Gray_Phantom]

I'm making a wizard with a Spark Guardian, but I'm wondering about the first familiar. At first level I get a basic familiar, and then take the Improved Familiar feat later. When I get my Spark Guardian... what happens to the original familiar?

Do I now have 2 familiars? Or does my original familiar become a normal animal again? If the latter is the case, I assume (since it dosen't seem to be mentioned anywhere) that I take no penalties for a dismissed familiar?

[Piggy Knowles]

A prerequisite of Improved Familiar is that you must be able to acquire a new familiar, which you cannot do if you currently have one. That means you must dismiss your current familiar right before taking the Improved Familiar feat. So, you only have one.

As to what happens to the familiar when you dismiss it... well, probably it turns back into a normal bird/toad/cat/whatever, since it got those special bonuses specifically for being a wizard's familiar, but I think that falls into "ask your DM" territory. If I was DMing I'd probably rule that it stayed a magical beast with some intelligence as compared to non-familiars, because I like the idea that its years linked to a wizard's lifeforce by threads of arcane magic altered it, but that's not RAW.

[Buufreak]

You do not. Besides the odd few feats from dragmag, you only get 1 familiar at a time.

There is also an argumental grey area on if you indeed start with a familiar, considering the cost of obtaining one and a level 1 character's lack of funds, but that's for you and a DM to sort out.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately, you will be severely punished if you willingly dismiss your familiar.


If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

Unfortunately, you will be severely punished if you willingly dismiss your familiar.

Seems like a harsh punishment for what ought to be an upgrade. I'll talk to my DM and, since we're starting at 8th level, ask if I could simply start with a Spark Guardian. Seems like a complicated mess if you go by RAW.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond ♡

[Twurps]

You get the ability to aquire a familiar at lvl 1, but you are not required to do so.
So RAW it's perfectly fine to wait with getting a familiar until you've aquired the 'improved familiar' feat.

If you start at lvl 8, and at that point already have the feat, there's no practical difference.

[Segev]

Depending on how you fluff it, your DM may be willing to let you get away with claiming the upgrade actually changed your familiar, so it's still the same being, just in a new form with new abilities.

Heck, in Pathfinder, the Magical Child (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes-paizo-inc/magical-child/) archetype of the Vigilante (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/) explicitly has this happen, with class features that enable it eventually to transform back into prior forms. But that is a class feature at that point.

[MisterKaws]

Depending on how you fluff it, your DM may be willing to let you get away with claiming the upgrade actually changed your familiar, so it's still the same being, just in a new form with new abilities.

Heck, in Pathfinder, the Magical Child (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes-paizo-inc/magical-child/) archetype of the Vigilante (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/) explicitly has this happen, with class features that enable it eventually to transform back into prior forms. But that is a class feature at that point.

Well, there's technically the Changeling Wizard substitution, but that's pushing it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, there's technically the Changeling Wizard substitution, but that's pushing it.I like taking that substitution level along with Improved Familiar, Extra Familiar (x2 or more), whatever other feats I can manage to improve their survivability, and levels in spell sovereign for a living spell familiar. Now I have several minions that can shapeshift at will into any number of incredibly useful forms (including at-will spells from all lists, such as stoneskin).

Lots of at-will buffs to make my friends (and myself) extremely durable FTW!

[MisterKaws]

I like taking that substitution level along with Improved Familiar, Extra Familiar (x2 or more), whatever other feats I can manage to improve their survivability, and levels in spell sovereign for a living spell familiar. Now I have several minions that can shapeshift at will into any number of incredibly useful forms (including at-will spells from all lists, such as stoneskin).

Lots of at-will buffs to make my friends (and myself) extremely durable FTW!

Changeling Spell Sovereign... ouch, that's dirty.

[Segev]

Changeling Spell Sovereign... ouch, that's dirty.

Can you spell this one out for me? I don't know Changeling ancillary mechanics (special feats, ACFs available, etc.) very well at all, and I don't know what Spell Sovereign is. (Links would suffice if spelling it out takes too long.) Thanks!



THere's an interesting set of feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/animal-companion-feats/) in PF for familiars (intermixed on that page with feats for animal companions). The mention of a Changeling reminded me of Changeling Familiar (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/animal-companion-feats/changeling-familiar-animal-companion-feat/) in particular. It lets your familiar assume a form that is of its master's species (teen or child in apparent age). This can have some interesting applications. It requires the Change Shape universal monster ability, but that can be acquired by choosing the right Improved Familiar (Imps and Quasits, for instance) or through the Shapeless Familiar (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/animal-companion-feats/shapeless-familiar-animal-companion-feat/) feat (though I confess that said feat is not particularly impressive on a normal familiar: oh, yay, my scorpion can turn into a thrush! Far more useful on something that is horrifying in its natural form and lacks a change shape power of its own, like a Cacodaemon).

[MisterKaws]

Can you spell this one out for me? I don't know Changeling ancillary mechanics (special feats, ACFs available, etc.) very well at all, and I don't know what Spell Sovereign is. (Links would suffice if spelling it out takes too long.) Thanks!

Changeling Wizard's fifth level substitution trades away your extra feat in exchange for giving your familiar the ability to change into any other familiar normally available to the owner as a full-round action. That means if you have Improved familiar you can change back and forth between Quasits, Mephits, and the occasional Winter Wolf. With Celestial Familiar you add Coure and Musteval to that list.

And there's the thing: Spell Sovereign(Dr357) lets you choose a Living Spell of levels 1-4(progressively higher as you advance) as a Familiar. That means you have infinite access to every single spell of levels 1-4 with an Area or an Effect, including class exclusive spells, which would otherwise be level 5 or 6.

So it gets broken pretty fast, as I'm sure you can imagine.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Changeling Wizard's fifth level substitution trades away your extra feat in exchange for giving your familiar the ability to change into any other familiar normally available to the owner as a full-round action. That means if you have Improved familiar you can change back and forth between Quasits, Mephits, and the occasional Winter Wolf. With Celestial Familiar you add Coure and Musteval to that list.

And there's the thing: Spell Sovereign(Dr357) lets you choose a Living Spell of levels 1-4(progressively higher as you advance) as a Familiar. That means you have infinite access to every single spell of levels 1-4 with an Area or an Effect, including class exclusive spells, which would otherwise be level 5 or 6.

So it gets broken pretty fast, as I'm sure you can imagine.Note that the sub-level actually turns them into the critters, instead of polymorphing them or whatever, meaning they get all of the abilities from every creature on the master's familiar list. Yes, that means a deity that can make any creature its familiar* can turn its familiar into any creature. Yes, even that one.



*Within 1 mile per divine rank. So any creature within 1 mile per DvR. Would that mean a god could turn his familiar into another god? Even an overdeity? If the PCs are hunting the god in question down, if that god had Extra Familiar a few times, he could turn his familiars into forms with abilities identical to the PCs. Mirror match, anyone?

[MisterKaws]

Note that the sub-level actually turns them into the critters, instead of polymorphing them or whatever, meaning they get all of the abilities from every creature on the master's familiar list. Yes, that means a deity that can make any creature its familiar *can turn its familiar into any creature. Yes, even that one.



*Within 1 mile per divine rank. So any creature within 1 mile per DvR. Would that mean a god could turn his familiar into another god? Even an overdeity? If the PCs are hunting the god in question down, if that god had Extra Familiar a few times, he could turn his familiars into forms with abilities identical to the PCs. Mirror match, anyone?

So the actual reason Pun-Pun upholds the balance of the universe is because there's a Changeling Wizard Overgod of balance who threatens him so by having two Pun-Pun familiars ready to shank him otherwise?

[Elkad]

There is an AP where the familiar retained it's intelligence after the death of it's master. A seagull IIRC.

I can't place which one though. It was low-level, and it was hanging out at a shipwreck.

[Segev]

Changeling Wizard's fifth level substitution trades away your extra feat in exchange for giving your familiar the ability to change into any other familiar normally available to the owner as a full-round action. That means if you have Improved familiar you can change back and forth between Quasits, Mephits, and the occasional Winter Wolf. With Celestial Familiar you add Coure and Musteval to that list.

And there's the thing: Spell Sovereign(Dr357) lets you choose a Living Spell of levels 1-4(progressively higher as you advance) as a Familiar. That means you have infinite access to every single spell of levels 1-4 with an Area or an Effect, including class exclusive spells, which would otherwise be level 5 or 6.

So it gets broken pretty fast, as I'm sure you can imagine.Nifty, and yes, very broken. That's almost as bad as the beholder mage build. Not quite in terms of action economy, but waaaaay up there in versatility.


There is an AP where the familiar retained it's intelligence after the death of it's master. A seagull IIRC.

I can't place which one though. It was low-level, and it was hanging out at a shipwreck.Nifty. It would be interesting to try to develop either a "make it playable" racial template to apply to animals called "ex-familiar," or make a class out of it that grants an animal the needed abilities to be playable.

[denthor]

Depends on the familiar imps and quasits can in some case eat the othe familiar. This was stated in 3.5 expansion book when the evil researcher reached 2nd level in the prestige class.

[noob]

In all the campaigns familiars of dead wizards keeps their familiar abilities(and there is even a familiar of a dead wizard which is a wizard with a familiar)
But the death of your master is not at all the same thing as being dismissed.

[Elkad]

I tend to take Imps a lot.

I start with a Rat (or Raven), and work out with the DM that it's always been an Imp, just stuck in it's alternate form and with it's powers restricted. At 3rd or 6th I take Improved Familiar and put the Fiendish template on it. At 7th it got all it's powers back and became a full Imp.
In one game I actually concealed the fact I had an Imp from the rest of the party for several levels. It stayed in Rat form, or I claimed it was "in my pocket" when it was actually flying around invisibly. Somewhere around 12th level we got in a situation where I needed the full 2nd character and got to use the "Witness the power of this fully armed and operational battlestation" line, as Impy revealed itself and went ham on a mini-boss.