I think PRCs would suck a lot less if they were houseruled into Bonus Levels not actu

[MatrixStone93]

Not actual levels.

So... let's say you're a level six fighter and you qualify for the Mounted Jouster prc thanks to your high ride skill. When you get to level seven, you can level up in Fighter and become a Fighter 7 OR sacrifice that new level up and go back to level 6 to get a free level of Mounted Jouster 1 that doesn't count towards your max level cap and won't affect multiclassing or anything else like that. And from then on, every PRC you take automatically levels up when you do if you don't sacrifice that new level for another new PRC your character qualifies for. So you can go from Fighter 6 Jouster 1 to Fighter 7 Jouster 2, or stay at Fighter 6 Jouster 1 and gain a free level of Shield Expert.

And it's the same for a level 8 Wizard Cleric. When he levels up you can sacrifice that new level to get that combo Cleric and Wizard PRC I don't remember the name of for free. That way it'll actually become better for your character than another level of both Cleric and Wizard, because now it's an entirely beneficial thing that won't stop you from getting another level of Cleric and Wizard.

Or for bonus power, you get both the PRC and a level of your current classes when levelling and each level lets you level your main class or classes plus all your current prcs, or gain a new prc while levelling your main class or classes.

Both fixes seem like they would fix the "Many PRCs suck and require you to build badly and go out of your way to get them, you're honestly usually better just taking another class level" problem. Which do you prefer? Or are both terrible ideas? How would you change this?

[weckar]

So you'd loop through level 6 a couple dozen times (with how exp is a river not inconceivable), still gaining BAB and everything, picking up every possible PrC, and then at level 16 have every PrC maxed out and about a +300 BAB? Seems like that would make sense.

Also, does revisiting this level 6 give a new level 6 feat every time? Or, even, new fighter feats?

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't think it's a terrible idea, but it's kind of counterintuitive to progression. If you're just replacing your level 6 of fighter with a level of mounted jouster, you don't gain any BAB or HP (except maybe from a bigger HD). There's no progression. Same with the Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge. If you were wizard 3/cleric 3 and then became wizard 2/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1, you're not actually getting any benefit towards your wizard spellcasting. in 6 levels you'll be effectively a wizard 6/cleric 6, but if you had just kept going you would be effectively a wizard 9/cleric 9.

What would be better is just to revamp the prerequisites for the classes that have worthwhile class features but are barred behind hefty prerequisites, and figure out how to make the "bad" prestige classes better on a case-by-case basis. Or create your own prestige classes. The DMG has info on doing this and I've found it LOTS of fun to do with your players.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm afraid I don't see a specific benefit or distinction. Getting the benefit of the PrC at level 'about to be 7' by going back to level 'just enough to be 6' is slightly less XP in that it makes your next turn through the levelling up process slightly less costly than actually going up to level 7 and then having a new xp threshold to get to level 8. However, assuming you are playing in an actual game where you are living in an actual xp budget based on the xp handed out by the DM for accomplishments, all this is a slight discount. How is it different from, say, the DM giving out a 10% xp bonus for behavior they approve of, or the like?

Aside from not being, to my mind, sufficiently distinct from a slight discount, it also has some very specific incentivization structures. If the cost of adding the ability is always the cost of going up a current level, then the same benefit increases in cost as you go up in level (so, as weckar states, if 6 is the first level to get the PrC, you will just keep churning through level 6 for as long as you can, and certainly never go back to do so again at levels 7+). This might fix some problem, but it seems to cause at least as many as well.

[ThatMoonGuy]

When I saw the title of the thread I automatically thought about option 2 but, in a sense, that would basically be gestalting a main class with every prestige class you qualify for. Depending on how things work, you could just pick a few feats to qualify for PrCs that gave you all good saves, some casting progression, d10 hit die and full BAB. Which would be kinda overkill. It would be a bit better if you just got the class features of a PrC instead of its chassis but still wouldn't be too good since you could classify for a bunch of them and get a lot of class features.

That said, I don't think the idea is bad in and on itself. But maybe you could do it sorta like 4e and 5e do subclasses. At level (let's say, 6), you can pick one PrC you are classified for and then progress its class features as you level your main class. If you want, you could allow the player to pick more PrC at other levels but this might get a bit too powerful.

[Talverin]

Ha.

Hahahahah! Hah. Haaah.

Oh, good god, I'd just pop into every PRC I can find that doesn't *hurt* my character and go from there. Maxing out every PRC by level 16, +300 BAB, TONS of full spellcasting, oh man.

You're right in that most PRCs are... neat. They have... Fluff.
Most PRCs aren't that great, it's true. But some of them are *horrifying.*

So instead, maybe take it on a case-by-case basis, and let them treat it like an archetype, levelling their main class, but gaining the features of the PRC at that level. So, no BAB, HD, or saves progression, no spell-levelling progression from the PRC, just the actual PRC class features.

Dragon Disciple is a good basis for this. The class features are neat and very thematic, but it doesn't synergize well with entering as a Sorcerer. Low BAB gain, okay saves, but neat features in exchange for missing out on two levels of casting. Instead, you would continue leveling Sorcerer, at Dragon Disciple 1 https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple/ (Sorc 7) you would gain just the Natural Armor increase; the additional spells/day and the 'stacks with Sorc for Bloodline' are no longer relevant.

At DD 2 (Sorc 8) you would get the +2 Str, and the Bite attack, with the Bloodline Feat not being necessary because you're still getting it from Sorc.

At DD 3, you gain Breath Weapon, because the text states specifically how it interacts with the Breath Weapon gained from Bloodline.


Doing this, you get many of the benefits of the PRC, without having to absorb the often unnecessarily weak drawbacks of the class as well.

However, given the disparity in power levels of various PRCs, it's impossible to make a blanket statement that keeps things balanced.

For consideration also, you can allow them to take 'better of' HD, saves, skills, and BAB when they level. In the Dragon Disciple example, you'd be taking the 3/4 BAB and the D12 HD over the 1/2 and D6 normal.

[daremetoidareyo]

Getting rid of feat prerequisites for prestige classes seems easier

[Mike Miller]

Not actual levels.

So... let's say you're a level six fighter and you qualify for the Mounted Jouster prc thanks to your high ride skill. When you get to level seven, you can level up in Fighter and become a Fighter 7 OR sacrifice that new level up and go back to level 6 to get a free level of Mounted Jouster 1 that doesn't count towards your max level cap and won't affect multiclassing or anything else like that. And from then on, every PRC you take automatically levels up when you do if you don't sacrifice that new level for another new PRC your character qualifies for. So you can go from Fighter 6 Jouster 1 to Fighter 7 Jouster 2, or stay at Fighter 6 Jouster 1 and gain a free level of Shield Expert.

And it's the same for a level 8 Wizard Cleric. When he levels up you can sacrifice that new level to get that combo Cleric and Wizard PRC I don't remember the name of for free. That way it'll actually become better for your character than another level of both Cleric and Wizard, because now it's an entirely beneficial thing that won't stop you from getting another level of Cleric and Wizard.

Or for bonus power, you get both the PRC and a level of your current classes when levelling and each level lets you level your main class or classes plus all your current prcs, or gain a new prc while levelling your main class or classes.

Both fixes seem like they would fix the "Many PRCs suck and require you to build badly and go out of your way to get them, you're honestly usually better just taking another class level" problem. Which do you prefer? Or are both terrible ideas? How would you change this?

Have you heard of Gestalt? I think you just want Gestalt...

[HouseRules]

It's clearly Gestalt with limitations.

When Things Overlap, Receive Only From The Prestige Class
Otherwise, it is a Base Class and Prestige Class Gestalt

[Psyren]

Yeah, I would do this by just combining, say, Rogue levels 11-20 with Shadowdancer or Assassin or something. This loop-back-repeatedly-without-actually-leveling sounds needlessly confusing with a lot of balance issues as written.

[Seerow]

I'd actually be curious to see an examination of how broken this is if you made it only for non/partial casting classes, and let you just gestalt on as many prcs as you manage to qualify for.

Like as a fighter, if you qualify for 10 different prestige classes, take the features from all of them and still keep your bonus feat progression and chassis.

[weckar]

Like, only if you don't otherwise multiclass. Tacking on full incarnum progression AND binding progression AND invocation progression... It's still going to be mad.

[Skyrender]

If it was my decision, I would try something like having to buy each PRC level with experience, but have only your base class levels + RHD would be used to determine things like absolute maximum HP, level-based feats and stat bumps, and max skill ranks. You'd still get skill points from the PRC, but still have to observe the maximums already established. I think BAB, Base saves, caster progression/caster level could be added, but limited to no higher than the max values for a single class of the relevant level (i.e.: full BAB, 2+half level saves, 1:1 spell progression, etc.). For most PRC's, just set the XP cost to level up the PRC equal to your base class levels + RHD, plus your existing level in the PRC, times 1,000 XP.

[MeeposFire]

Hmm I thought that this was going to be some sort of idea from 4e or 5e where you do not take a class level in something but you would choose something to include in your progression. In 4e you had paragon classes and epic destiny while in 5e you have the sub classes.

[Calthropstu]

Hmmm.

I almost like this idea. A few too many turnoffs though.

It does touch on an issue though. An initiate of the sevenfold veil, for example, is no less a wizard for being an initiate. Revamping the way prestige classes work might be in order.

How about if, instead of gaining a level of x prestige class, you went up in your base level and added abilities from the initiate on top... Each ability would come at a cost. Such as sacrifice a feat slot, lose a caster level, etc. Only being able to add abilities from 1 prestige class at level would be prudent. This represents the sacrifice of normal training to acquire the new skills and abilities. This would allow you to pick and choose between base class and prestige class benefits.

[Ashtagon]

One of the original design goals was that a prestige class wasn't intended to be a "power-up" so much as a specific focus for the character (this is stated in the 3.0 DMG, and I think re-stated in 3.5). Splats quickly threw this out the window of course, and it's not as if WotC was known for good game balancing, but the intent was at least nominally there. If you want to change that, cool, but your proposal is a change from what was first intended.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Your proposal first assumes.. PRCs suck.. They don't.. A good chunk are broken beyond belief and majorly OP. I can only name a few that I actually know the name of that "suck" and some which are, below par? Are more easily fixed by the DM doing a quick modification. Your system idea, is well honestly terrible. It's game breaking in every way. It would in no way function in a balanced manner. ever.

[MeeposFire]

One of the original design goals was that a prestige class wasn't intended to be a "power-up" so much as a specific focus for the character (this is stated in the 3.0 DMG, and I think re-stated in 3.5). Splats quickly threw this out the window of course, and it's not as if WotC was known for good game balancing, but the intent was at least nominally there. If you want to change that, cool, but your proposal is a change from what was first intended.

Prestige classes had much the same issue that kits had in 2e where they had this interesting idea that while not for everyone was found to be very popular and capable to sell many books just based on its inclusion. IN 2e many of the books became homes for new kits that were there to push new books and that happened in 3e as well where a number of books are glorified ways of pushing prestige classes out most never to be used.

They also led to the same problems though prestige classes in many ways are worse for the game than kits were to 2e (kits typically only modded your character slightly so it made much less of an issue) but WotC had a big advantage over TSR in that they had better business deals with their book distributors since TSR was really on the hook for unsold books and that became a major liability for them. I have not heard the same issue for WotC.

You can also see when they start seeing the problem they have part way through 3.5 when they stopped pushing out merely PRCs and started pushing out new base classes. They felt a need to keep putting out more books and that was the most common way to do it at that point. 4e's version was powers and paragon paths so pretty similar.

Then you have 1e, Basic D&D (well a line of that but I am just going to call it basic for sake of one name), and 5e which use less quantities of splat type books (though of course they do exist) though even there certain things are still the big sellers such as sub classes in 5e.

[Heliomance]

Both fixes seem like they would fix the "Many PRCs suck and require you to build badly and go out of your way to get them, you're honestly usually better just taking another class level" problem. Which do you prefer? Or are both terrible ideas? How would you change this?

...but... prcs don't suck tho??? like, there are actually very few cases where you're better off taking more base class instead of diving into a prc at the first opportunity???

Yeah, there are a load of bad PrCs out there. But there's also a hell of a lot of really good ones, and there is pretty much zero reason not to be an Archmage or an Incantatrix or an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or a Mage of the Arcane Order or (insert other full casting PrC here) instead of going straight Wizard - because then you get all the spells that you'd get as a Wizard and also class features as well.

About the only core base class that's really worthwhile taking to 20 is Druid, and that still has some very good PrC options if you want them. Almost any character played above a certain level of system mastery and optimisation will PrC at level 6 and never look back.

[Selion]

I'd prefer to rule prestige classes as for variant multiclassing in pathfinder: you give up feats at given levels in exchange for PrC class features. HD, BAB and TS are those of the base class

[soullos]

I like the idea that you choose a PrC and you only get the listed class features, no BAB, HD, skills, proficiencies, +1 to spell level etc. If the PrC grants spellcasting you'd gain that though. In effect the PrC becomes a sub-class to the base class. Maybe you have to finish the PrC before you can start a new one? Maybe the PrC is tied to the base class in question, so you don't gain the benefits unless you level up the base class tied to it? Both? Just my two cents.