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View Full Version : Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.



OOTS_Rules.
2007-10-08, 11:22 AM
I have made some fixes for fighter-types and nerfs for casters. I hope you enjoy:

Buffs:

Weapon Finesse also works for damage with light weapons.
Dex is applied to arrow damage, not strength.
Monks get full BAB
Half of BAB applied to damage.
Up 1 HD for all fighters (Pally's 12, Barbs 20, so on so forth)

Nerfs:

Wizards only get 2 domains, Sorcerers get three.
Remove armor profeciency for Clerics, Druids, Bards, and Beguillers. Duskblades reduce armor maximum to medium.
Mage types except Duskblades and Sorcerers get knocked down by 1 HD.
Remove Wildshape
Simple weapon proficiency for all except wizards.

Are these good fixes, or overpowered?

(These only apply to the classes in the PHB or PHB 2. If there is another Mage/Fighter type such as Duskblade then I will add it too the list)

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-08, 11:33 AM
Wizards only get 2 domains, Sorcerers get three.

Domains? Wizards? Sorcerers?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-10-08, 11:35 AM
Wait, did I say domains. Drat. I meant schools. This is to prevent Cloudkill Cheese the best I can.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-08, 11:40 AM
Buffs:
Not bad, but they fail to address the core problems of why the fighter and monk are such awful classes (except possibly as dips).



Nerfs:
Not bad either, but it fails to address the problem of CoDzilla, and are you really suggesting that Wizards get 1d2 hit points per level?

Moral Wiz
2007-10-08, 11:42 AM
Are you applying both or one? cos if it's both, you are really unbalancing it. Me, I think the system is prety much fine as is. Fighters are not as powerfull as wizards, but they are far more persistant. Still, in a single combat style of thing, applying one should be enough for what you have in mind.

Any perticular reason for this? Did you have somthing in mind, or is it off the cuff?

Oh, and why do the wizards have less spells availible than the Sorcerer?

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-08, 11:43 AM
Wait, did I say domains. Drat. I meant schools. This is to prevent Cloudkill Cheese the best I can.

ah i get ya now :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Demonking
2007-10-08, 11:45 AM
Your making sorcerers completely more powerful than wizards.

Your taking away wizards plus over sorcerers, larger selection and then weakening it and giving sorcerers more.

Saph
2007-10-08, 11:45 AM
A bit hard to figure out, to be honest.

We seem to get a lot of these 'Nerfing Casters' threads, and they nearly always seem to me to be based on other threads, rather than from actual play experience. E.g. people read this board, see lots of people saying 'Wizards own!' and immediately set to houseruling instead of stopping and checking to see if it's a problem in their own game or not.

For example - what you just said about 'Cloudkill cheese'. I've played more D&D sessions than I can count and I've never seen a wizard use Cloudkill yet. Not because it sucks or anything, but because it's situational. But somehow or other the idea's spread on these boards that Timestop/Forcecage/Cloudkill is THE ULTIMATE COMBO!!! (For the record: it's not. In fact, it sucks. Timestop/Forcecage/Cloudkill is one of the LEAST efficient spell combos you could possibly use at level 20, for half a dozen reasons I won't go into here. Anyone who actually tries to use it in a game will discover them quick enough.)

In short: Are casters causing a problem in your game? If they are, houserule to fix that SPECIFIC problem. Not a problem that some guy off the Internet who lives in another country says is a problem for some other games that he doesn't play in but is still willing to make blanket statements about. If it's not an issue right now, don't worry about making houserules until it is.

- Saph

OOTS_Rules.
2007-10-08, 11:46 AM
Kurald: No, wizards get 1d3. Also, I feel it stops CoDzilla by removing tanking potential. Mabye lowering their Spells per Day might help. . .

Moral Wiz: This is just an experimental fix I am making. Also, Sorcs get more schools because they learn less spells.

Saph: You make good points. This is just an emergancy fix in case of Muchkins. However, I think the fighter fixes will be kept in mind, though.

Saph
2007-10-08, 11:56 AM
Okay, well looking at your melee changes:


Weapon Finesse also works for damage with light weapons.

Too much. This overpowers high-dex characters (Dex is a good enough stat already without adding it to damage).


Dex is applied to arrow damage, not strength.

Arrows don't get Str damage unless you have a mighty composite bow. This slightly increases the effectiveness of archer characters, allowing them to dump Str (but remember above point about Dex already being slightly too good a stat).


Monks get full BAB

Good fix.


Half of BAB applied to damage.

Up 1 HD for all fighters (Pally's 12, Barbs 20, so on so forth)

Moderately increases attack power for monsters; moderately increases attack and defence power for melee PCs and NPCs; overpowers barbarians. D20 HD? Way too much.

You're mucking around with the game mechanics big-time for this one, and I don't have enough playtesting experience to guess what the consequences'll be. Not sure here.

Note that none of these changes do much to help fighters - the classes they boost the most are rogues, rangers, monks, and barbarians.

- Saph

Kurald Galain
2007-10-08, 12:05 PM
Are casters causing a problem in your game? If they are, houserule to fix that SPECIFIC problem. Not a problem that some guy off the Internet who lives in another country says is a problem for some other games that he doesn't play in but is still willing to make blanket statements about. If it's not an issue right now, don't worry about making houserules until it is.

Absolutely QFT.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-10-08, 12:07 PM
OK, some fixes to my fixes:

d12 HD is not increased

Possibly remove fighters in favor of Pallys and Barbs.

Draz74
2007-10-08, 12:13 PM
Weapon Finesse also works for damage with light weapons.
Dex is applied to arrow damage, not strength.

What's the goal here? I thought you were trying to give warriors a chance vs. casters. But these changes just seem to try to give archers/swashbucklers equal power to Greatsword Power Attackers. (And it won't quite work, either; Power Attack scales better than a Dex mod. Besides, don't Sword & Board fighters need the help more than archers do?)

Warriors' biggest weakness is their lack of mobility. Archers get around that problem. So I guess you've helped non-casters be stronger against casters here, by saying "all of you non-casters should be archers." Which isn't the kind of fix I'd like to use, personally.

... Also, this could get cheesy if splatbooks are allowed and characters (e.g. Champions of Corellon) can find ways to add their Dex to damage twice.


Monks get full BAB

Well, that certainly makes Monks suck less. They can now Flurry without missing as much. They can now Power Attack instead of Flurrying, if they only get one hit. They can now be decent at Grappling and Disarming, which are supposed to be their specialties. But they still can't Flurry in the same round that they use any of their mobility skills (e.g. Fast Movement). They still have to somehow pull off very high Dex and Wis if they want good AC, and at the same time pull off high Strength if they want to be good at grappling. They still won't be terribly effective at anything other than surviving.

... and they are now indisputably more "monastic warrior" types than "monastic wise men" types, which I personally find distasteful. But it depends on the campaign setting.


Half of BAB applied to damage.

On the rare occasions that warriors pull off a Full Attack, this may be a bigger boost to damage than you expect. Actually, this may make warriors more dependent on getting a Full Attack than ever, and therefore make them less mobile. Other than that, I guess it's an OK rule ...


Up 1 HD for all fighters (Pally's 12, Barbs 20, so on so forth)

Not needed. Warriors already don't lose to casters due to straight-up damage most of the time. They lose to save-or-suck spells. After mobility, fighters' and barbarians' biggest weakness is their Will save. What's the point of boosting the defense that's already good, and not fixing the one that needs fixing?


Wizards only get 2 domains, Sorcerers get three.

On the one hand, you can still build quite a nasty Batman build with just two schools. Try Conjuration and Illusion. Plus scrolls and wands of the other schools.

On the other hand, if you nerf these classes this way and not other caster classes, you'll just start seeing some very effective Batman Clerics. Oooh, scary thought.

Overall I don't think artificial


Remove armor profeciency for Clerics, Druids, Bards, and Beguillers.
Duskblades reduce armor maximum to medium.

This will actually help a little bit to nerf the CoDzillas (together with the "remove Wildshape" fix). Not so much the arcane types -- they generally can use Mage Armor to act like they have light armor anyway, at low levels, and at higher levels they protect themselves by other means instead of boosting their AC anyway.


Mage types except Duskblades and Sorcerers get knocked down by 1 HD.

I don't mind seeing this happen to the Cleric and Druid (although again, you're heading towards a game dominated by Batman Clerics). But it's pretty harsh to some of the others. Bards? I actually approve of boosting their hit die to d8. Wizards - they're at what, now? d3? d2? 1? Not a great fix, because Wizards are already glass cannons; already in trouble if they get hit with a weapon. This will just make them even more paranoid and dependent on all their crazy protection spells.


Remove Wildshape

Mechanically won't cause any problems. But you may get players complaining about not being able to use such a popular ability. Oh, and Druids will still dominate melee at early levels just by having an Animal Companion.


Simple weapon proficiency for all except wizards.

Personally I'm in favor of Simple Weapon Proficiency for everyone. It's not like a wizard picking up a light mace would actually unbalance anything -- he's still got poor BAB and probably would rather use a Ray of Frost than a mele weapon. :smalltongue:

EDIT: One more thought: Cleric-archers. Batman Clerics who also take advantage of your archer boosts. Eeeek.

Kaelik
2007-10-08, 12:30 PM
Moral Wiz: This is just an experimental fix I am making. Also, Sorcs get more schools because they learn less spells.

The point is that as it is currently Sorcs have more spells per day and Wizards are able to choose from a host of options and be more versatile. There is no point in being able to learn 400 spells from 2 schools. Learning 5 spells from 3 schools is much better. You have made the Sorc more durable, more versatile at the moment, more versatile in general, and more powerful then the Wizard. Wizards know all spells. That's the point of Wizards, to have options but be forced to choose ahead of time. If you limit them to two schools you might as well just declare that the class no longer exists.

Also, reducing their HD does nothing since they already are very short on HP and rely mostly on Con. The problem is not that they survive getting hit, it is that they never get hit after a certain level.

Drglenn
2007-10-08, 12:37 PM
Nerfs:

Wizards only get 2 domains, Sorcerers get three.
Remove armor profeciency for Clerics, Druids, Bards, and Beguillers. Duskblades reduce armor maximum to medium.
Mage types except Duskblades and Sorcerers get knocked down by 1 HD.
Remove Wildshape
Simple weapon proficiency for all except wizards.


WHAT!!! Wildshape is the main reason to play druids, otherwise they're basically just clerics with no domains, turning etc and animal companions

OOTS_Rules.
2007-10-08, 01:05 PM
WHAT!!! Wildshape is the main reason to play druids, otherwise they're basically just clerics with no domains, turning etc and animal companions

Wildshape is the reason druids are so powerful.

Also, I am not using these mage fixes unless my games get invaded by munchkins. Here are my current fixes.

Full BAB Monks
Extra HP rank for all fighters except d12 HD ones. (Monks need their HP)
Half BAB applied to damage.

I personally don't see monks as grapplers. Being a Black Belt in Tae-Kwon-Do myself, I more often see quick and precise strikes than grapples and disarming.

Solo
2007-10-08, 01:06 PM
There are other martial arts out there which involve grappling.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-10-08, 01:12 PM
Mabye we could give Monks a fighting style thing similar to Rangers. Their could be grappling monks, which sacrifice staying power for disarming and grappling and unarmed monks that act like the normal ones.

Draz74
2007-10-08, 02:15 PM
Mabye we could give Monks a fighting style thing similar to Rangers. Their could be grappling monks, which sacrifice staying power for disarming and grappling and unarmed monks that act like the normal ones.

Well, Improved Grapple is already an optional bonus feat for them. They are free to choose another feat instead of it. So they kind of already have what you're proposing.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-08, 02:45 PM
Well, this changes might be the biggest bag of bologna I've ever heard of.

First off, the nerf and buffs to hit die fix nothing. A Wiz will still overland flight you and attack you with Will save spells.

Second, the pathetic hit die for wizards is a sorry idea. It basically means that ANY hazard will kill them. Strong winds? One wiz down.

Removing fighters is another terrible idea. ToB classes are there as optional, actually working classes, but if I wanted to play a Fighter with Weapon supremacy, I SHOULD be able to do so.

And lastly, for fixing Wildshape, stop taking shots in the dark. Most likely, PHBII has an excellent fix.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-10-08, 03:54 PM
Well, this changes might be the biggest bag of bologna I've ever heard of.

First off, the nerf and buffs to hit die fix nothing. A Wiz will still overland flight you and attack you with Will save spells.

Second, the pathetic hit die for wizards is a sorry idea. It basically means that ANY hazard will kill them. Strong winds? One wiz down.

Removing fighters is another terrible idea. ToB classes are there as optional, actually working classes, but if I wanted to play a Fighter with Weapon supremacy, I SHOULD be able to do so.

And lastly, for fixing Wildshape, stop taking shots in the dark. Most likely, PHBII has an excellent fix.

For removing fighters, I won't remove the Weapon ______ chain. Instead, I would allow it for any melee class. Also, I am not using the wizard fixes unless there is a severe case of munchkinry.