Changing disciplines.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Player wants to play a swordsage warblade, but wants to use the Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand disciplines in place of the others. Is this going to lead to balance issues? I'm pretty stoked that someone is finally playing an Initiator in my campaign, but I've never swapped out disciplines, only ever used martial study/stance feats.

Would letting him drop say Stone Dragon for shadow hand make a difference?

This group is like super new to d&d, and they have absolutely no idea what optimization is, so breaking the game isn't really a worry (seriously there are 3 fighters), but I love the people and they're fun, so go at er.

[Segev]

...weird, I thought swordsages got shadow hand by default. It's the most rogue-ish of the classes and Shadow HAnd is the rogue Discipline. Similarly with Setting Sun. I thought both were actually exclusive to Swordsages.

No, it won't break anything. Stone Dragon may be a weaker Discipline, but in all honesty, as long as you're not giving another class's exclusive iconic Discipline to them, it's unlikely to pose a real problem. (Don't give them the Crusader discipline with all the healing and divine stuff in it, for instance, without making them jump through the normal hoops.)

[Red Fel]

...weird, I thought swordsages got shadow hand by default. It's the most rogue-ish of the classes and Shadow HAnd is the rogue Discipline. Similarly with Setting Sun. I thought both were actually exclusive to Swordsages.

They do. Swordsages already get those disciplines. In fact, Swordsages are the only ones who get Shadow Hand and Setting Sun by default.

That said, I agree. It's not that the classes are "balanced" around the discipline spreads they get. Rather, it's a question of feel. Swordsages get more disciplines than anybody, including Rogue/Monk-ish disciplines like Setting Sun and Shadow Hand, because they are the Rogue/Monk-ish skillmonkey initiator class. Crusaders get Devoted Spirit, not just because its healing options complement their combat style, but because they're basically Paladin initiators and it's basically a Paladin discipline. And Warblades get Iron Heart because they are shounen anime protagonist wannabes, and it's the shounen anime protagonist discipline.

It's flavor, not balance. You should be fine swapping out. I just don't think you need to swap.

[Particle_Man]

If the player likes those disciplines they may want to look at the shadow sun ninja prestige class. That said, one already can do a swordsage 20 with only setting sun and shadow hand disciplines, except at levels 1-3 when one runs out of first level shadow hand and setting sun maneuvers to take and can’t replace them yet (and that is only a real problem at level two when five maneuvers have to be readied and only four first level setting sun and shadow hand maneuvers exist). For that level I would recommend wind stride as while it is part of desert wind it is not associated with fire or particularly flashy so isn’t obviously out of character for one focussed on the other two disciplines.

[weckar]

I think it is fair to say that all disciplines aren't created equal, so swapping them should be done with a little bit of scrutiny.

But, as has been pointed out (Swordsage'd? Nah), they already HAVE those disciplines...


Though. boy is it a bad idea to throw an intiator in with three fighters. Unless your group is massive (bad idea in itself), they will reaaaally stand out in both feel and gameplay.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

That's my fault everyone, totally put down the wrong class.

Thank you for the input though -- I have already explained that the crusaders discipline Devoted Spirit is off limits.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

I think it is fair to say that all disciplines aren't created equal, so swapping them should be done with a little bit of scrutiny.

But, as has been pointed out (Swordsage'd? Nah), they already HAVE those disciplines...


Though. boy is it a bad idea to throw an intiator in with three fighters. Unless your group is massive (bad idea in itself), they will reaaaally stand out in both feel and gameplay.

It is currently a party of 8... which... ugh. But luckily I have a co-DM, so it's not as haphazard.
2 characters are fighters
1 is a bard (as of yesterday, he was the other fighter)
1 wizard
1 sorcerer
1 warblade
1 ranger/scout
1 rogue.

Wizard is pretty much a healer, why he refused to go cleric or something is beyond me. Sorcerer is blasting everything, and the fighters are a chain tripper, and a power attack/cleave build.

[weckar]

Chain tripper, Ranger/Scout... Not terribly unoptimized choices. You'll probably be fine.

A Wizard healer may be a bit more of a concern, as there are good design reasons why healing is generally kept out of their wheelhouse. But, again, you'll probably be fine.

[GrayDeath]

While I would normally strongly discourage to let Fighters and ANY real Initiator into the same game, the Chain tripper will likely have no problem keeping his niche. THe cleaver though....well....


As for the original question: As has been pointed out, its a Fluff question. Something however that can be entirely avoided by multiclassing a Warblade and a Swordsage. Gets you more maneuvers (if half+ of them with a worse recovery) and saves for 1-3 points of BAB.

A good trade in my opinion.

[PraxisVetli]

My table uses Pow, PoW Harder, and ToB with the houserule that any Initiator can cherry-pick any and all disciplines.
While yes, this does up the power ceiling a tad, it doesn't always, and when it does, the Wizard is still flying and shooting lazers so it's ok.
Really, it just gives a lot more options for cool and unusual builds to take place.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

While I would normally strongly discourage to let Fighters and ANY real Initiator into the same game, the Chain tripper will likely have no problem keeping his niche. THe cleaver though....well....


As for the original question: As has been pointed out, its a Fluff question. Something however that can be entirely avoided by multiclassing a Warblade and a Swordsage. Gets you more maneuvers (if half+ of them with a worse recovery) and saves for 1-3 points of BAB.

A good trade in my opinion.

A 1-level-dip into sword sage means he needs to track and level those discipline maneuvers separately than the warblade though doesn't it?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

My table uses Pow, PoW Harder, and ToB with the houserule that any Initiator can cherry-pick any and all disciplines.
While yes, this does up the power ceiling a tad, it doesn't always, and when it does, the Wizard is still flying and shooting lazers so it's ok.
Really, it just gives a lot more options for cool and unusual builds to take place.

This is what I was thinking, it doesn't seem to really make all that big of a difference, I wanted to see what peoles experiences were first though. It's not a very optimized group, the tripper player just found a forum and is trying to replicate the build.

[Mr Adventurer]

How is your Wizard being a healer at all? :smallconfused:

[tyckspoon]

How is your Wizard being a healer at all? :smallconfused:

Several ways to do it, but they're pretty much all weird and inefficient and generally won't satisfy trying to do it as a primary job in a party that actually needs that. There's a couple of oddball Wiz/Sorc spells that can heal at a severe spell level discount (like getting the effectiveness of a Cure Medium in a 5th level spell) and/or restrictions like only targeting self, or you can take some feats or ACFs to get limited access to healing spells as Domain spells; that will at least let you make use of wands and scrolls containing those spells.

[Doctor Awkward]

How is your Wizard being a healer at all? :smallconfused:

Te most straightforward way I could think of off the top of my head was to take the Healing domain with the Arcane Disciple feat.

But that method requires you to keep your wisdom up in order to be allowed to prepare and cast those spells, which, as mentioned, is painfully inefficient.



A 1-level-dip into sword sage means he needs to track and level those discipline maneuvers separately than the warblade though doesn't it?

Yes. Levels in multiple initiator classes are like levels in different spellcasting classes. They have their maneuver lists and initiator levels tracked separately.

However, the key difference is that half of his level in each class counts for the other. So for example if he were an 8th-level warblade and took a level in swordsage as his 9th level, he would count as a 5th-level swordsage for the purposes of what level maneuvers and stances he would be allowed to take, which would allow him to select up to 3rd-level Shadow Hand or Setting Sun maneuvers (keeping in mind prerequisites).

I personally am not a fan of just opening up all disciplines to all initiator classes, since I prefer to run the rules as they were intended. So I would ask him if there were specific maneuvers he was interested in or if it's merely blanket access to the entire discipline, and encourage him to strategically build accordingly. Depending on how many specific maneuvers he wants, in addition to dipping it's also possible he could simply take the Martial Maneuver feat which that allows you to pull any maneuver off of any list and add it to your maneuvers known. He could also purchase one of the discipline magic items from the same book that would essentially do the same thing for as long as he wears it.

If he wants the entire disciplines, then I would recommend he just play a swordsage. I once played a samurai as an 8th-level swordsage focusing on Diamond Mind and Setting Sun maneuvers and it worked out very well.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

How is your Wizard being a healer at all? :smallconfused:

He is an abjuration specialist, and literally NOTHING provides healing spells, other than loading money into cure wands.

As I said before, why he didnt go cleric, is completely beyond me. But he is having fun, so... alright lol.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Te most straightforward way I could think of off the top of my head was to take the Healing domain with the Arcane Disciple feat.

But that method requires you to keep your wisdom up in order to be allowed to prepare and cast those spells, which, as mentioned, is painfully inefficient.




Yes. Levels in multiple initiator classes are like levels in different spellcasting classes. They have their maneuver lists and initiator levels tracked separately.

However, the key difference is that half of his level in each class counts for the other. So for example if he were an 8th-level warblade and took a level in swordsage as his 9th level, he would count as a 5th-level swordsage for the purposes of what level maneuvers and stances he would be allowed to take, which would allow him to select up to 3rd-level Shadow Hand or Setting Sun maneuvers (keeping in mind prerequisites).

I personally am not a fan of just opening up all disciplines to all initiator classes, since I prefer to run the rules as they were intended. So I would ask him if there were specific maneuvers he was interested in or if it's merely blanket access to the entire discipline, and encourage him to strategically build accordingly. Depending on how many specific maneuvers he wants, in addition to dipping it's also possible he could simply take the Martial Maneuver feat which that allows you to pull any maneuver off of any list and add it to your maneuvers known. He could also purchase one of the discipline magic items from the same book that would essentially do the same thing for as long as he wears it.

If he wants the entire disciplines, then I would recommend he just play a swordsage. I once played a samurai as an 8th-level swordsage focusing on Diamond Mind and Setting Sun maneuvers and it worked out very well.

It's the 3/4 BAB progression that throws him off, which is pretty odd for an Initiator, because alot of the maneuvers are standard actions anyhow.

As I said, they're all really new, so things aren't very thought out.

[Mr Adventurer]

He is an abjuration specialist, and literally NOTHING provides healing spells, other than loading money into cure wands.

As I said before, why he didnt go cleric, is completely beyond me. But he is having fun, so... alright lol.

Sorry, I don't understand. What's being an Abjurer got to do with it? How is he using those wands?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Sorry, I don't understand. What's being an Abjurer got to do with it? How is he using those wands?

That's what I mean, it has nothing to do with it, all he does is mage armor and UMD on cure light wounds as a "healer".

He has literally 0 ability as a healer outside of a cure light wounds wand he bought, that's why I'm trying to push him to be a cleric.

[weckar]

I mean, I can see why you would not want to be a cleric as a new player. The concept of a cleric comes with a lot of cultural baggage, and quite simply is just about as far away from cool as you can get.

We all know that that is nonsense, but the lay image of a cleric is that of a church preacher or a studious monk.

[Kris Moonhand]

If the religious stuff is making them uncomfortable, might I recommend the Witch class from Pathfinder for your Wizard player? Or at least the Witch spell list? Plenty of healing magic in there.

[tyckspoon]

If the religious stuff is making them uncomfortable, might I recommend the Witch class from Pathfinder for your Wizard player? Or at least the Witch spell list? Plenty of healing magic in there.

Or a cleric of one of the assorted gods of Magic and/or Knowledge, which roleplay wise is a lot like the default Wizard behavior; you just cast from the Cleric spell list instead.

[Mr Adventurer]

That's what I mean, it has nothing to do with it, all he does is mage armor and UMD on cure light wounds as a "healer".

He has literally 0 ability as a healer outside of a cure light wounds wand he bought, that's why I'm trying to push him to be a cleric.

Ah, thanks. And yikes.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Ah, thanks. And yikes.

Yeah, it's by far the least hardcore game I've DM'd; but it's a nice change from all the optimizers you have to try and outsmart and everything yenno?

[MisterKaws]

The cleaver though....well....

You never know. Maybe he's actually an ubercharger with Travel Devotion to do a "second charge" every round with Cleave.

Else he's screwed I guess. Treat the poor sob well, maybe let him re-roll into a War Hulk instead? Those can "cleave" decently.

As for the Wizard... Maybe make him a Truenamer? They can be good buffbots and can certainly heal wonders, if you do give them the skill-boosting items. You feel like a permissive DM, so it won't be hard on him as long as you give him his toys. If nothing else, the others will appreciate the buffs.

[weckar]

Can I honestly say this is the first time I have ever heard to advice to replace a wizard with a truenamer?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

You never know. Maybe he's actually an ubercharger with Travel Devotion to do a "second charge" every round with Cleave.

Else he's screwed I guess. Treat the poor sob well, maybe let him re-roll into a War Hulk instead? Those can "cleave" decently.

As for the Wizard... Maybe make him a Truenamer? They can be good buffbots and can certainly heal wonders, if you do give them the skill-boosting items. You feel like a permissive DM, so it won't be hard on him as long as you give him his toys. If nothing else, the others will appreciate the buffs.

I'm waaaaay too lenient with the new group, I don't want to scare people away with hard rules. They've only ever played very homebrewed versions of 5th, so mechanic heavy games aren't a thing.

Last group, either show me the writing or it wasn't happening lol.

[MisterKaws]

Can I honestly say this is the first time I have ever heard to advice to replace a wizard with a truenamer?

It is the most DM-dependent class in the game, but it's a chill DM and the guy wants to play support, so why not?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

It is the most DM-dependent class in the game, but it's a chill DM and the guy wants to play support, so why not?

Rule of cool needs to make a play in the game too, not just what the books say.