Anyone ever played with Plot Points (DMG 269)?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Specifically, the "What a Twist" variant?


You start with 1 plot point and can spend it to establish a fact about the setting or situation that must be accepted as true. When everyone's spent one, everyone gets theirs back.


I'm thinking of modifying Inspiration to be one/both/either of:

* A Luck point reroll. Lucky (the feat) would give you 3 that could only be spent this way.
* A Plot Point (as above).

Everyone would start each long rest with 1 (use it or lose it during that day). Great/in-character deeds could earn you one back, with table nomination and approval.

Part of my justification is that
a) Lucky is the number one feat taken across all my tables, hands down.
b) I tend to forget Inspiration, and mere Advantage isn't much even when I don't.

Thoughts? Concerns?

[Spectrulus]

In my casual group I don't make players roll if they suggest a twist, we just roll with it.

I currently treat inspiration at both my tables as Add a d20 to whatever you messed up, and it works fine.

I like your idea, it adds more structure and seems groovy. I would probably mention that Lucky feat points can't be exchanged for plot points, and you're set.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my casual group I don't make players roll if they suggest a twist, we just roll with it.

I currently treat inspiration at both my tables as Add a d20 to whatever you messed up, and it works fine.

I like your idea, it adds more structure and seems groovy. I would probably mention that Lucky feat points can't be exchanged for plot points, and you're set.

Yeah, Lucky points would only be re-rolls. One big thing I'm thinking this would do is act as permission to add things. I generally go along if they do already, but I want them to do so more often.

[Steel Mirror]

I'm a big fan of these kinds of meta-resources, and I try to include a version of them in every game I run. The success depends somewhat on the people in the game (obviously), but I've never had any problems, per se, just groups that didn't seem to be very interested in using them. And then some groups embrace them and use them to great effect.

It sometimes helps to hand out physical markers that represent these plot points, like poker chips or little folded table tents. They get handed in when the player uses their plot point. This helps individuals track whether they've spent theirs, but just as importantly, it reminds everyone else at the table who still has one left, as I've found that there are usually a couple players who are a lot more excited about using their points, and they will sometimes take it on themselves to remind someone who has points left that they can use one to invent some detail about an encounter. Takes some of the onus off of you as GM.

[Maelynn]

If you're going to use it to reward specific actions, then I'd drop the bit about everyone getting theirs back once they're all spent. Make it a resource they want to earn, rather than one they lazily get back once all has been spent.

Also, if they have the option of using it as a Luck point, they might spend it as often as they can just because they get it back - infinite Luck points, whoo!

That said, I like the idea of making it either Luck or Plot. It gives more dynamic than 'mere' advantage, while still offering a choice between 'active story input' and 'personal gain'.

[Crucius]

During my research for an rpg system for a specific setting I came across Spirit of the Century book based on FATE core. There they do exactly the thing you are describing with fate points. That chapter is an interesting read to give you some ideas and concrete examples of how they implement it and under which circumstances they work, beyond 'use a point for a twist'.

To answer your question directly: I have used plot points during an experimental one shot with the express purpose of testing the mechanic and the results were interesting.

-I think players that have played a lot without it have to warm up to the idea. My players almost forgot about them, because they weren't used to having the option. In a similar vein I expect the more creative uses to come out over time.
-My goal was to give the players the option to partake in worldbuilding and enhance roleplay. Instead all points were expended in combat. Just an observation, probably a wrong one due to the low sample size.

It's a keeper for me! I'll teach them how to make the most of it someday!

[Crucius]

I'm a big fan of these kinds of meta-resources, and I try to include a version of them in every game I run. The success depends somewhat on the people in the game (obviously), but I've never had any problems, per se, just groups that didn't seem to be very interested in using them. And then some groups embrace them and use them to great effect.

It sometimes helps to hand out physical markers that represent these plot points, like poker chips or little folded table tents. They get handed in when the player uses their plot point. This helps individuals track whether they've spent theirs, but just as importantly, it reminds everyone else at the table who still has one left, as I've found that there are usually a couple players who are a lot more excited about using their points, and they will sometimes take it on themselves to remind someone who has points left that they can use one to invent some detail about an encounter. Takes some of the onus off of you as GM.

This helps I can tell you! I used cookies and the players got to eat them when they spent the point.

Pretty sure one of the players spent his point just because he was hungry :')

[PhoenixPhyre]

This helps I can tell you! I used cookies and the players got to eat them when they spent the point.

Pretty sure one of the players spent his point just because he was hungry :')

I like that method =)

[Steel Mirror]

Fate is also where I fell in love with this sort of resource, as they implement fate points really well as a foundational part of the system and how the game loop is set up. I've never seen it done better (though I admit I only play a handful of games). Lots of good lessons there for how to use it in other games, of course!

[Maelynn]

Oh yes, FATE is awesome. It really has some interesting tidbits that you can easily use in other systems. We played a short Mass Effect game using FATE rules, and I loved every bit of it. Especially the "yes/no, but-" rule:

- if you fail hard on a check, you don't just fail but something else happens to make it even worse
- if you fail just a bit on a check, you almost made it OR that you made it, but with a small caveat that might pose to be a problem later on
- if you succeed just a bit on a check, you only just made it OR you failed the initial check but gained something else that's equally good
- if you succeed hard on a check, you don't just succeed but something else happens to make it even better

I'm still thinking about ways to implement this to some extent into 5e. I've occasionally given some narrative along these lines, but wondering what I could do to really give it the slight/severe impact that you can get with FATE.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So here's my (working draft) of an Inspiration house-rule:
------------
Each player will start with a single Inspiration point. This can be used in one of three ways:

1. Inspiration can be used to re-roll any dice roll that affects you directly. This could be one of your attack rolls, saving throws, or ability checks or that of another character who is directly affecting you or affected by one of your abilities.
2. Inspiration can be donated to another player, as long as they do not already have a point of Inspiration.
3. Inspiration can be used to establish a fact about the situation or setting that must be taken as true. The DM can veto this use--if he does so, the Inspiration is not expended. This new fact cannot contradict anything that has been directly stated at the table already, but can add a wrinkle. For example, you might spend a point to establish that a particular guard is corrupt and can be bribed easily or that a wall is crumbly and can be pulled down to block pursuers.

Inspiration is regained the following ways, but cannot exceed one point at any specific time:

1. When the group votes that an action was awesome or very in-character (especially if it was non-optimal and caused issues for your character).
2. When the party takes a long rest in a safe area such as a home base or protected city (no more than once per session).
3. When the character takes an action that exceeds those allowed by default in exchange for a penalty or limitation (jumping extra far in exchange for reduced movement speed until they rest, for example)

The Lucky feat now gives three limited inspiration uses per long rest--these can only be used to re-roll a dice roll. A character with the Lucky feat can store up to 4 points: 1 regular and 3 limited Inspiration.

[Rukelnikov]

I've used this kind of systems but not in DnD.

Tenra Bnasho zero, basically has this where you can spend Ai (a resource handed by the other players) to bring into scene NPCs, put yourself into a scene, modify the initial reaction someone has to you character, and more of that kind of stuff.

Its a different kind of game where the DM is "less in control" and the narrative is more cooperative in a way. It works perfectly in that game where you pretty much decide when you die and stuff like that (your character cannot be killed unless you choose to), on a more tactical/combat oriented game, I dunno how well it would do if everytime the party is in trouble in a dungeon they just summon [Most Powerful Friendly NPC we know], but its definitely worth a shot.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've used this kind of systems but not in DnD.

Tenra Bnasho zero, basically has this where you can spend Ai (a resource handed by the other players) to bring into scene NPCs, put yourself into a scene, modify the initial reaction someone has to you character, and more of that kind of stuff.

Its a different kind of game where the DM is "less in control" and the narrative is more cooperative in a way. It works perfectly in that game where you pretty much decide when you die and stuff like that (your character cannot be killed unless you choose to), on a more tactical/combat oriented game, I dunno how well it would do if everytime the party is in trouble in a dungeon they just summon [Most Powerful Friendly NPC we know], but its definitely worth a shot.

That's why I included a DM veto on the Plot Twist part--the suggestion has to make some modicum of sense in the fiction. Things like altering unstated dispositions of NPCs (that aren't story critical), finding a secret door/passage, etc. are "safe". Outright power-gaming is gonna get vetoed.

[Rukelnikov]

That's why I included a DM veto on the Plot Twist part--the suggestion has to make some modicum of sense in the fiction. Things like altering unstated dispositions of NPCs (that aren't story critical), finding a secret door/passage, etc. are "safe". Outright power-gaming is gonna get vetoed.

Yeah that's probably a good call.

Regarding the system by which Plot Points are awarded, the "Everyone gets one and its refreshed whe the last one is expended", that may cause intra party problems where John just wants to get another plot point (and is always the first one to use his), and is pushing Ann and Bob to spend theirs so he can get his back.

TBZ for instance has this where the players (and the GM) award Ai to the other players (and the GM) when they do something that goes in accordance to their PC, this does have the potential problem of some characters getting much more than others though.

Maybe for starters just go with everyone gets one per session or per long rest, and then see where to go from there.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yeah that's probably a good call.

Regarding the system by which Plot Points are awarded, the "Everyone gets one and its refreshed whe the last one is expended", that may cause intra party problems where John just wants to get another plot point (and is always the first one to use his), and is pushing Ann and Bob to spend theirs so he can get his back.

TBZ for instance has this where the players (and the GM) award Ai to the other players (and the GM) when they do something that goes in accordance to their PC, this does have the potential problem of some characters getting much more than others though.

Maybe for starters just go with everyone gets one per session or per long rest, and then see where to go from there.

I changed that. Now it recharges when:

1. Everyone votes that someone should get one for something awesome/very in-character.
2. The party takes a long rest in a safe location (ie not in the wilderness)
3. Someone accepts a negative[1] consequence based on the character (sorta akin to FATE's Compels). You can reject it, but if you accept the consequence you get an Inspiration point as a partial compensation.

[1] more exactly "complicating" consequence. Basically the reverse of the Plot Twist--done by the DM instead. Something that makes your life more "interesting".

[Bjarkmundur]

Inspiration
Inspiration is a resource gifted by players or DMs for creativity, prioritizing roleplay, and generally being an upstanding player. Some backgrounds or character traits provide additional means of acquiring inspiration.
A player starts each session with two inspiration tokens. Inspiration can be used in one of four different ways:

Healing Surge
You can use one Inspiration token and one hit die to restore your vigor. You regain a number of hit points equal to the result of the hit die + your constitution modifier.

Reroll
You can use one Inspiration token to reroll one d20, but you must use the second result.

Make a narrative declaration
You can use one Inspiration token to either add or remove details regarding the current narrative, within reason.

Background Feature
You can use one inspiration to use your background feature, chosen at character creation.





These are the inspiration rules at my table. Feel free to steal. I use it as means of encouraging a specific playstyle, which might be different from character to character or player to player. It's my own little Positive Reinforcment experiment. If I have a player that's boringly scared of taking damage, I'll award him a token for bravery when he does something dangerous to help the group, for example.
Two tokens is the maximum, which is implied.
I'm waiting for my players to pick up on the fact that using nr 3 or 4 usually grants the a token also. I love it when players add to the narrative or tell character stories at the table.
In Wrath and Glory 40k, the DM actually gets a similar resource he can use against the players. I think that's kind of funny.

[Dr. Cliché]

I just let my players contribute to the setting however they want.

Want to come from a foreign land and know little to nothing about the world I'm building? Sure.

Want to design key elements of your home town along with NPC friends, relatives, or even antagonists for your character? Sure, be my guest.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I just let my players contribute to the setting however they want.

Want to come from a foreign land and know little to nothing about the world I'm building? Sure.

Want to design key elements of your home town along with NPC friends, relatives, or even antagonists for your character? Sure, be my guest.

My setting is a bit more fixed, but I let them add things like this as well. What this effort is going for is much more local--adding something to this current scene during play. Basically giving them some form of voluntary meta-narrative power. Or they can use it for re-rolls. Their choice.

Also, I'm trying to codify when I give Inspiration, because I tend to forget to use it.