Sun Soul Monk

[j_spencer93]

So curious, is there anyway to make a build focusing on Sun Soul Monk that is decent? Had a player who wanted to multi class into barbarian for a broly vibe but Sun Soul seems terrible, even its damage is sub par.

[Man_Over_Game]

So curious, is there anyway to make a build focusing on Sun Soul Monk that is decent? Had a player who wanted to multi class into barbarian for a broly vibe but Sun Soul seems terrible, even its damage is sub par.

The thing is about the Sun Soul Monk is that you have to open your mind to the idea that you're MORE than just a ranged combatant. You're a Monk with ranged attacks.

Here's the thing about Monks: They get anywhere. You can't pin them down with magic, because they have amazing abilities to shed off conditions and various effects. You can't shoot them up, because they have Deflect Missiles. Monks are great at taking down the specialists in the back, and can dart around combat to do it. Sun Souls just happen to have an additional 30 feet to work with. So instead of having to maneuver around the enemy front line with 70ft, which you might need 40 of to back up with, you now only need to spend 30 feet to get up close, and 10 feet to back up. Where a normal monk would have to Step of the Wind-Dash to get in and out, you can do the same thing without Step of the Wind (which means you spend the extra Ki point and Bonus Action on shooting more bolts at the bad guy).

You're a harasser. You move further than any melee character, you out-range them, and you wait for weaknesses in their lineup so you can flank around and hit their specialists (mages, archers) at the opportune moment.

The problem with all of this is that Sun Souls are kinda bland for a long time. The only thing they get is their bolts. So my recommendation is actually to play a flying race. Aarokocra, specifically. Monks naturally resist all of the weaknesses of a flying creature (High Dex, to avoid tripping effects. Deflect Missiles, to block ranged attacks. Slowfall, to mitigate fall damage if something forces you to fall). Not only does it synergize well with your short range (30 feet is short, too far for melee characters to hit you while you're in the air), but it also adds a level of fun that the Sun Soul needs to stand out.

I would not recommend multiclassing into needing a 3rd/4th stat. Sun Souls need high Dexterity and high Wisdom to make the most of their features. Thankfully, due to their ranged focus, they can be a bit less dependent on Constitution than most Monks, but they still shouldn't completely neglect it.

If it helps, you can talk to your DM about allowing you to take the Shove action, using Dexterity, when you take the Attack Action with one of your bolts. It's not overpowered when replacing one of your attacks (as opposed to tacking it on, like with the Open Hand Monk), and it goes a long way into adding diversity into your playstyle.

[j_spencer93]

The blandness is really the issue. Your suggestions are good but it still just feels blah.
Honestly the monk always suffers from this issue it seems lol (3.X did as well)

I will tell players about the flying part. So it basically sounds like there is no real way to optimize it to be more effective. We don't mind its role, i like it actually, but it seems the warlock or paladin do the same but better. The warlock eldritch blast the monks targets for much higher damage and control and the paladin just rides in and chops them down.

[samcifer]

If you can manage 13 Charisma, you can go hexblade for the curse to add in your proficiency bonus to damage by giving up only 1 level of monk. You can also either take the Shield spell or Hex for even more extra damage (though you'll loose up to 2 attacks for 2 turns this way by forcing you to spend your bonus actions on not actually attacking your targets).

[Man_Over_Game]

The blandness is really the issue. Your suggestions are good but it still just feels blah.
Honestly the monk always suffers from this issue it seems lol (3.X did as well)

I will tell players about the flying part. So it basically sounds like there is no real way to optimize it to be more effective. We don't mind its role, i like it actually, but it seems the warlock or paladin do the same but better. The warlock eldritch blast the monks targets for much higher damage and control and the paladin just rides in and chops them down.

My recommendation is to pit the team against something akin to a Sun Soul Monk and see how annoying it'd be. The thing is, the Sun Soul Monk is, well, still a Monk. That Paladin would have a hard time dealing with an enemy with 30 range and 40 movement speed and a Bonus Action Dash/Disengage as needed, right?

Similarly, that Warlock would basically be dead in the water if something like a Monk was engaged into melee combat with it, making the Warlock's attacks have Disadvantage (range penalties) and be mitigated with Deflect Missiles, suffering Opportunity Attacks to move away, or spend their Action to run away (causing the Warlock to contribute nothing for the round).

Normal Monks do well against ranged combatants. Ranged Monks do well against melee combatants. The thing that Monks are weak against are groups, and the Sun Soul Monk even has an answer for that (considering the fact that 2/3 of its major features are explosions).

The Warlock's a sniper. The Paladin's a drill. The Sun Soul Monk is a multitool, and why would a multitool be a better drill than something specialized into being a drill?

You have to consider the things that the Warlock can't do, the things the Paladin can't do, and recognize that the Sun Soul Monk does those things. Thinking of things in terms of "how do I make this thing drill", or "how do I make this thing into a sniper" is only ever going to get you specialized options. But a Monk isn't really a specialist, they do whatever hurts the enemy the most.

[j_spencer93]

My recommendation is to pit the team against something akin to a Sun Soul Monk and see how annoying it'd be. The thing is, the Sun Soul Monk is, well, still a Monk. That Paladin would have a hard time dealing with an enemy with 30 range and 40 movement speed and a Bonus Action Dash/Disengage as needed, right?

Similarly, that Warlock would basically be dead in the water if something like a Monk was engaged into melee combat with it, making the Warlock's attacks have Disadvantage (range penalties) and be mitigated with Deflect Missiles, suffering Opportunity Attacks to move away, or spend their Action to run away (causing the Warlock to contribute nothing for the round).

Normal Monks do well against ranged combatants. Ranged Monks do well against melee combatants. The thing that Monks are weak against are groups, and the Sun Soul Monk even has an answer for that (considering the fact that 2/3 of its major features are explosions).

The Warlock's a sniper. The Paladin's a drill. The Sun Soul Monk is a multitool, and why would a multitool be a better drill than something specialized into being a drill?

You have to consider the things that the Warlock can't do, the things the Paladin can't do, and recognize that the Sun Soul Monk does those things. Thinking of things in terms of "how do I make this thing drill", or "how do I make this thing into a sniper" is only ever going to get you specialized options. But a Monk isn't really a specialist, they do whatever hurts the enemy the most.

Actually the warlock is a hexblade...so melee doesn't really hurt it. But the paladin yea, it would have issues.

[Man_Over_Game]

Actually the warlock is a hexblade...so melee doesn't really hurt it. But the paladin yea, it would have issues.

Yeah, that's fair. Hexblades are pretty damn good at everything but taking a punch, and even that can be worked around (tough feat, + Darkness + Devil's Sight + Tomb of Levistus = One Tough MOFO).

[AgenderArcee]

Barbarian doesn't really work well with Sun Soul because you have to use Dex for your Radiant Sun Bolts.

[No brains]

Sun Soul may not be flashy (har har) but there's some incredible utility in having a no-resource attack that can be done all day, twice a round, that can hit objects, with one of the best energy types.

[Zetakya]

Sun Soul may not be flashy (har har) but there's some incredible utility in having a no-resource attack that can be done all day, twice a round, that can hit objects, with one of the best energy types.

and twice more for a Ki point

[Misterwhisper]

My main issues with sun soul are.

The range is only 30 feet.
It can keep you out of melee when you need it to but that range is just too short.

You can flurry with it but not just the normal bonus attack from martial arts.
If you are using ki for flurry anyway it is fine but if you aren’t you have the choice of 1 or 2 attacks at range or 2 or 3 in melee.

It is a ranged spell attack not a ranged weapon attack so no bonus from things like archery. However it is also not a spell so you can’t take spell sniper.

The same with all monks there are no + 1,2,3 gloves or anything so no magical weapon bonuses.

If you want a ranged attack just carry a shortbow

[Zetakya]

The player is trying to achieve a specific characterisation, with a "Broly" vibe (which Google informs me is a Dragon Ball Z character).

Now my cultural referent for Sun Soul Monk has always defaulted to yelling "Hadouken!" and RPing Street Fighter, but the point is that he doesn't "want a ranged attack", he wants the kind of magical light beam/ball attack that Radiant Sun Bolt represents, and is looking to optimise within that characterisation.


@Op - RSB scales pretty linearly with DEX as a stat. There aren't many ways to boost that beyond stacking more DEX. As has been mentioned in this thread, it's a Ranged Spell Attack, so it doesn't benefit (by the RAW) from Sharpshooter, but it's not actually a Spell so (again, RAW) it doesn't benefit from Spell Sniper.

If the DM wants to change one of these with a personal ruling (I would advise Sharpshooter), then that will significantly help.

[Xaryo]

for flavor, you can always use the super "light" combo, for the ultimatr super sayen vibe:

the Good Aasimar
Sun Soul monk
Light cleric.

i play one SSmonk7/light cleric 3.
maybe not the most optimized, more rp and story based.

[MilkmanDanimal]

I hate that Burning Hands is a class ability just because it's so underwhelming past, oh, level one, and even the "Radiant Fireball" is a bit Ki-expensive and an 8d6 attack at max for it is a bit underwhelming by the time it comes online. I mean, it's not AWFUL, but it's just not great. That being said, being able to punch lasers? It's cool. I don't really care for any of the other Sun Soul-specific fluff, but, in the end, you're a Monk who punches lasers, and there's no way that's not a fun idea.

With a Barbarian, no, just doesn't work real well, but that's just due to competing attributes for Monk attacks vs. Rage attacks. I don't think you can optimize that combo as much as mitigate its underwhelming-ness.

[Talij]

Play as a warforged skirmisher for flavor: You're basically flightless Ironman, shooting energy blasts out your palms. With monks various movement boosts, it's got the mobility that will make you feel like you're flying without cheesing the DM.

[Man_Over_Game]

I hate that Burning Hands is a class ability just because it's so underwhelming past, oh, level one, and even the "Radiant Fireball" is a bit Ki-expensive and an 8d6 attack at max for it is a bit underwhelming by the time it comes online. I mean, it's not AWFUL, but it's just not great. That being said, being able to punch lasers? It's cool. I don't really care for any of the other Sun Soul-specific fluff, but, in the end, you're a Monk who punches lasers, and there's no way that's not a fun idea.

With a Barbarian, no, just doesn't work real well, but that's just due to competing attributes for Monk attacks vs. Rage attacks. I don't think you can optimize that combo as much as mitigate its underwhelming-ness.

You are forgetting to include the part where you cast Burning Hands as a Bonus Action, and that you can upcast it for 1 ki point per level, which is incredibly efficient for a Short Rest resource. 3 Ki Points, 4d6 damage in a wave as a Bonus Action, then you still get to take your Attack Action.

The explosion doesn't need to take Ki points to use, has a range of 150 feet, and only costs 3 Ki points at max, which is a lot more cost efficient than the Long Death Monk's major Ki feature. It's basically a cantrip that deals AoE damage. It could do with an extra 1d6 based damage, but I certainly wouldn't call it a bad feature.

[Rukelnikov]

You are forgetting to include the part where you cast Burning Hands as a Bonus Action, and that you can upcast it for 1 ki point per level, which is incredibly efficient for a Short Rest resource. 3 Ki Points, 4d6 damage in a wave as a Bonus Action, then you still get to take your Attack Action.

The explosion doesn't need to take Ki points to use, has a range of 150 feet, and only costs 3 Ki points at max, which is a lot more cost efficient than the Long Death Monk's major Ki feature. It's basically a cantrip that deals AoE damage. It could do with an extra 1d6 based damage, but I certainly wouldn't call it a bad feature.

IMO the Burning Hands is good because its perfectly combinable with the Attack action, thus allowing for the most nova monk sublclass 2 attacks + 4d6 in a cone at lvl 6 is pretty good.

The explosion, however, is an action, and doesn't key off the Attack action, thus you cannot combine it with burning hands or attacks, so you have to commit your turn to that, or spend Ki for Step of the Wind/Patient defense, or just not take a bonus action. 2d6 in an area with Con for negating is not very appealling for a whole turn worth of actions, its decent IMO when casted with 3 Ki points for 8d6 damage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sun Soul really needs to be able to shoot one bolt as a bonus action for no ki to feel "right," I think, but even as written it's still a Monk-- you bounce around the battlefield kicking and punching and stunning. Getting range on your Flurry isn't a bad perk at low levels, and at 6th and up you get to address the Monk's biggest weakness (dealing with crowds).

[Man_Over_Game]

IMO the Burning Hands is good because its perfectly combinable with the Attack action, thus allowing for the most nova monk sublclass 2 attacks + 4d6 in a cone at lvl 6 is pretty good.

The explosion, however, is an action, and doesn't key off the Attack action, thus you cannot combine it with burning hands or attacks, so you have to commit your turn to that, or spend Ki for Step of the Wind/Patient defense, or just not take a bonus action. 2d6 in an area with Con for negating is not very appealling for a whole turn worth of actions, its decent IMO when casted with 3 Ki points for 8d6 damage.

The explosion is added to cover the last of the Monk's weaknesses, which is ranged damage. That's 2d6 in a 20ft radius. That's a 4x4 box of explosive goodness, or 16 squares of an AoE. Assuming enemies occupy 25% of that area, that's 4 enemies hit, for a total of 8d6 damage (plus another 8d6 for each Ki point spent)

The big thing is, though, at 60+ feet away, what else are you going to be doing? Run ahead and get picked off? Use a Shortbow?

At that point, there aren't any real weaknesses to the Sun Soul Monk:


If you're a melee boss, he can just run around you and shoot you for days.
If you're a mage, he can just run up and stick to you, because he's a monk.
If it's a melee swarm, he can use his Burning Hands and melt them before finishing them off with attacks.
If it's a ranged swarm, he can shoot his nuke and butter them up during the initial skirmish.
In fact, the biggest weakness of every monk is fighting groups (as the Monk generally lacks AoE, options to get AoE, deals with conditions well, and inflicts many of his own), and the Sun Soul can melt an army with an Action Bomb, then a Bonus Action Burning Hands wave after engaging.


What exactly would you do to counter a Sun Soul Monk? Just throw numbers at it? I hear a lot of complaints about how mediocre it is in terms of damage, but I see it more like a Bard: Great at nothing, but good enough at what you need it to do.

[Nhorianscum]

Actually the warlock is a hexblade...so melee doesn't really hurt it. But the paladin yea, it would have issues.

Not seeing how unless somehow our theoretical paladin forgot how to horse.

If your player wants to be a DBZ char roll with either a 4Emonk (no really they're low key not bad. Fangs of the fire snake is essentially sunsoul's full class skill list but better) or Immortal Mystic.

[Rukelnikov]

The explosion is added to cover the last of the Monk's weaknesses, which is ranged damage. That's 2d6 in a 20ft radius. That's a 4x4 box of explosive goodness, or 16 squares of an AoE. Assuming enemies occupy 25% of that area, that's 4 enemies hit, for a total of 8d6 damage (plus another 8d6 for each Ki point spent)

The big thing is, though, at 60+ feet away, what else are you going to be doing? Run ahead and get picked off? Use a Shortbow?

At that point, there aren't any real weaknesses to the Sun Soul Monk:


If you're a melee boss, he can just run around you and shoot you for days.
If you're a mage, he can just run up and stick to you, because he's a monk.
If it's a melee swarm, he can use his Burning Hands and melt them before finishing them off with attacks.
If it's a ranged swarm, he can shoot his nuke and butter them up during the initial skirmish.
In fact, the biggest weakness of every monk is fighting groups (as the Monk generally lacks AoE, options to get AoE, deals with conditions well, and inflicts many of his own), and the Sun Soul can melt an army with an Action Bomb, then a Bonus Action Burning Hands wave after engaging.


This is what I was referring to before, Burning hands requires taking the Attack action, you can't do Bomb + BH, or BH + Attack, its always Att + BH, which IMO is very good, but the bomb not being ysable along with butning hands is what weakens it for me.


What exactly would you do to counter a Sun Soul Monk? Just throw numbers at it? I hear a lot of complaints about how mediocre it is in terms of damage, but I see it more like a Bard: Great at nothing, but good enough at what you need it to do.

Shoot it? A BM will shoot better, and if the monk decides to go melee, not much will change, he'll still be shot to death. I think its good, but far from untouchable.

[Man_Over_Game]

This is what I was referring to before, Burning hands requires taking the Attack action, you can't do Bomb + BH, or BH + Attack, its always Att + BH, which IMO is very good, but the bomb not being ysable along with butning hands is what weakens it for me.



Shoot it? A BM will shoot better, and if the monk decides to go melee, not much will change, he'll still be shot to death. I think its good, but far from untouchable.

Forgot that about the attack action, my bad.

On the shooting part, don't forget you're dealing with a monk. Deflect Missiles is applicable.

[Trickery]

Sun Soul Monks, like other monks and other characters in general, only shine when put in a situation where they excel. If you want to see a Sun Soul Monk excel, put it up against a vampire.

Radiant damage stops the vampire from healing.
The monk is one of the only classes that can keep up with a fleeing vampire regardless of the form it takes. Monks can even chase it up walls if it uses spider climb.
Paladin and other melee types may have trouble getting into range, especially past a bunch of thralls or the Children of the Night creatures, but the Sun Soul Monk won't.
It has legendary resistance, but a monk can potentially break through all three in one round. Few if any other classes can reliably do that.
Monk can break out of Charm at will starting at level 7.
If the Sun Soul Monk wills it and has room to move, no vampire form can catch it and make an attack in the same round without using legendary actions.

Against the right foes, sun soul monks are great. Against vampires, they're the best martial type. No, monks don't do as much damage as other martial characters, and sun soul monks are no exception. But their mobility and features are uniquely suited to certain encounters.

[j_spencer93]

Ok so taking in what everyone has said and looking over the class more....why ever go past level 17?
Seems the last 3 levels don't really provide much (perfect self is nice but eh), what 3 level dip or dips would you add to great more versatility? Or is the +3 ki points the right way to go?

Rogue opens up +2D6 sneak attack, nice skills and decent abilities.
Barbarian/Totem Warrior allows rage and resistance to all but psychic damage, making you less squishy.
Ranger/Gloom Stalker actually messes well, adding wisdom to init, allowing a big flurry first round, and bonus damage on top, not to mention Darkvision, and thats just the Archetype alone.


Not seeing how unless somehow our theoretical paladin forgot how to horse.

If your player wants to be a DBZ char roll with either a 4Emonk (no really they're low key not bad. Fangs of the fire snake is essentially sunsoul's full class skill list but better) or Immortal Mystic.
I did forget the horse lmao even after mentioning it above.

[djreynolds]

Theoretically since it is a ranged attack spell, you could snag crossbow expert and use it in melee.

You could also snag hex from warlock via magic initiate

And now your attacks are radiant/necrotic, a cool image

[Rukelnikov]

Ok so taking in what everyone has said and looking over the class more....why ever go past level 17?
Seems the last 3 levels don't really provide much (perfect self is nice but eh), what 3 level dip or dips would you add to great more versatility? Or is the +3 ki points the right way to go?

Rogue opens up +2D6 sneak attack, nice skills and decent abilities.
Barbarian/Totem Warrior allows rage and resistance to all but psychic damage, making you less squishy.
Ranger/Gloom Stalker actually messes well, adding wisdom to init, allowing a big flurry first round, and bonus damage on top, not to mention Darkvision, and thats just the Archetype alone.


I did forget the horse lmao even after mentioning it above.

Empty Body, the lvl 18 ability is awesome, IMO what should've been the monks capstone, Invisibility plus Resistance to all damage for 1 minute no ifs or buts.

And of course a feat at lvl 19

[j_spencer93]

Empty Body, the lvl 18 ability is awesome, IMO what should've been the monks capstone, Invisibility plus Resistance to all damage for 1 minute no ifs or buts.

And of course a feat at lvl 19

Ok I take it back, that is pretty good. Negates an reason to dip 2 in barbarian as well.

[Zetakya]

Monk is one of the best classes for taking all the way to 20. Conversely, it's probably one of the less likely to be multi-classed.

One of the best things about Monk is that it's largely gear-independent (Kensei excepted). Chuck a fighter into a jail cell without his weapons and armour and he is severely impaired. Wizards without their spell components? Very limited spell availability.

Monk, though? You can be stripped naked in an oubliette and you're still a Monk.

[Scarytincan]

Ya empty body is too good to pass on I'd say. For 19 depends if 2 lvl dip in something (rogue or fighter?) would beat 1 lvl war cleric and a feat imo. War cleric is prob one of the best 1 lvl dips for monk

[DarkKnightJin]

Ya empty body is too good to pass on I'd say. For 19 depends if 2 lvl dip in something (rogue or fighter?) would beat 1 lvl war cleric and a feat imo. War cleric is prob one of the best 1 lvl dips for monk

Might I ask why War domain in particular is so good for Monk?
The War Priest ability doesn't really synergize with the Martial Arts unarmed strike, or Flurry of Blows..

[samcifer]

Monk is one of the best classes for taking all the way to 20. Conversely, it's probably one of the less likely to be multi-classed.

One of the best things about Monk is that it's largely gear-independent (Kensei excepted). Chuck a fighter into a jail cell without his weapons and armour and he is severely impaired. Wizards without their spell components? Very limited spell availability.

Monk, though? You can be stripped naked in an oubliette and you're still a Monk.

"I never thought she'd get as far as the oubliette. She should've given up by now." Goblin King - Labyrinth

[Scarytincan]

Might I ask why War domain in particular is so good for Monk?
The War Priest ability doesn't really synergize with the Martial Arts unarmed strike, or Flurry of Blows..

Mostly for the early levels, maybe another domain if taking at 20. Early levels you can get a bonus attack with a martial weapon including long bow rather than just lesser unarmed strike dmg. The domain spells are some of the better ones for a one level dip also, tho perhaps accessing radiant dmg is not as big a utility boost on a sun soul, tho otoh, still thematic.

But cleric 1 in general also comes with a chunk of prepared level 1 spells, so can get some rituals in there too for a bit more utility (detect magic for sure) and can look at guidance, bless, healing word...

[Scarytincan]

Light cleric might be more thematic, but then there's redundancy with burning hands and monks already have lots of reactions with the feature to compete.

Trickery might be another one, I'm thinking of taking on my shadow monk in an upcoming one shot. Less thematic on sun soul tho.

[Zetakya]

If your DM will allow it, the Ambition Domain 1st level power would be really thematic for Sun Soul Monks

[Rukelnikov]

If your DM will allow it, the Ambition Domain 1st level power would be really thematic for Sun Soul Monks

Its the same as the Light's Domain 1st lvl feature

[djreynolds]

Yes divine favor from war cleric is a good spell for any melee class.

If I was to grab a dip, it would be 2 levels of ranger.

You get archery style to go along with your high dex, it makes using a longbow to soften up the target a very reasonable tactic before your punch and kick

And you get hunter's mark, it last 1 hour, it does compete with your bonus action... but only if the enemy is dead.

Also, a few levels of any caster is pretty sweet.

[Misterwhisper]

Yes divine favor from war cleric is a good spell for any melee class.

If I was to grab a dip, it would be 2 levels of ranger.

You get archery style to go along with your high dex, it makes using a longbow to soften up the target a very reasonable tactic before your punch and kick

And you get hunter's mark, it last 1 hour, it does compete with your bonus action... but only if the enemy is dead.

Also, a few levels of any caster is pretty sweet.

Any multiclassing of monk runs into the issue of, “is it worth me losing multiple ki points and possibly delaying stunning fist and asi?”

Most of the time that would be a no.

Monks need more stats than anyone but don’t he any extra asi like a rogue or fighter. Also their level 18 ability is solid gold.

At most 2 levels of anything:

Bard, barbarian, sorcerer, warlock, paladin, and wizard are most likely out due to needing a 13 in a stat that is not primary for you.

Fighter: Action surge is great, fighting style is not bad at all, and second wind is a good emergency button. However the proficiencies are not going to do much for you.

Cleric: again proficiencies are meh but some great utility spells especially is you go arcana. Nature for shillelagh could work.

Druid: pretty much just like cleric but some utility from wild shape.

Ranger: a lot like fighter but replacing action surge with a few spells. Overall not a bad plan.

Rogue: expertise is always welcome, cunning action is amazing if you were planning to spend ki to disengage anyway.
An extra 1d6 sneak attack is nice if you are using a weapon that can do it.

Overall I would not multiclass at all before 5 and after that I would only multiclass if I knew the game would not make it to 18 but it would at least get to like 14.