Stupidly OP magic item: at will cyclops helm

[flamewolf393]

The cyclops helm lets you, once per day, choose the number result on your next (most) d20 roll. The item costs 5,600gp. Now we know from the magic item creation chart that a 1/day item costs 1/5 of the item being at will. So just multiply the existing price by 5 and now every single attack/save/skill/ability roll you make is a nat 20, for only 28k gp.

[Rynjin]

Not particularly relevant since PF's Item Creation Rules are not hard/fast rules, but merely guidelines. Neat if your GM allows it, but even by RAW it requires GM permission to modify an existing item like that.

They even literally call out this exact scenario:


The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from the “command word” or “use-activated or continuous” lines of Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

Example: Rob’s cleric wants to create a heavy mace with a continuous true strike ability, granting its wielder a +20 insight bonus on attack rolls. The formula for a continuous spell effect is spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp, for a total of 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica, the GM, points out that a +5 enhancement bonus on a weapon costs 50,000 gp, and the +20 bonus from true strike is much better than the +5 bonus from standard weapon enhancement, and suggests a price of 200,000 gp for the mace. Rob agrees that using the formula in this way is unreasonable and decides to craft a +1 heavy mace using the standard weapon pricing rules instead.

Example: Patrick’s wizard wants to create bracers with a continuous mage armor ability, granting the wearer a +4 armor bonus to AC. The formula indicates this would cost 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica reminds him that bracers of armor +4 are priced at 16,000 gp and Patrick’s bracers should have that price as well. Patrick agrees, and because he only has 2,000 gp to spend, he decides to spend 1,000 gp of that to craft bracers of armor +1 using the standard bracer prices.

[flamewolf393]

I dont see that situation applying, im making the item MORE expensive than the base item. Also, the item only uses true strike as a component, which a contiunous item of would only cost 2k. This item is significantly more expensive than that. Im not using a loophole to make something cheaper, Im just making an item thats OP.

Im using an official item, and using official guidelines to make it usable more often.

[Rynjin]

I dont see that situation applying, im making the item MORE expensive than the base item. Also, the item only uses true strike as a component, which a contiunous item of would only cost 2k. This item is significantly more expensive than that. Im not using a loophole to make something cheaper, Im just making an item thats OP.

Im using an official item, and using official guidelines to make it usable more often.

If you really want to get needlessly nitpicky you are making an item that gives a bonus to any one roll equal to Infinity, making it cost infinity money.

[Jack_Simth]

The cyclops helm lets you, once per day, choose the number result on your next (most) d20 roll. The item costs 5,600gp. Now we know from the magic item creation chart that a 1/day item costs 1/5 of the item being at will. So just multiply the existing price by 5 and now every single attack/save/skill/ability roll you make is a nat 20, for only 28k gp.

Even if the DM lets that slide (do keep in mind, the entire section is about estimation) it's an immediate action activation. Which means it's limited to 1/round, normally. You can use it for a save, or an attack roll, but not both at the same time.

Additionally, I imagine you'll want it a little bit before you can keep Foresight up continuously, which means you'll not always be able to use it when you first get zapped by a spell.

On top of that, items are dispellable - and this one is at caster level 1, which means it's easy prey for such effects.

So... if your DM lets it slide for some reason, be ready to suffer it's limitations, and lose it quickly.


Oh yes, and as for pricing, there's a gem of a quote against it further down, just after Cooperative Crafting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/#TOC-Cooperative-Crafting):

Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

What's the actual worth of never failing a save? I'm pretty sure it's more than 28k....

[Selion]

It seems OP to me even in its base version. You could build a scythe user specifically for this item.

[Jack_Simth]

It seems OP to me even in its base version. You could build a scythe user specifically for this item.
In limited circumstances.

As an immediate action activation: You can force the crit, or you can force the confirm; you can't do both on the same turn. Against specific types of targets, there's various effects to auto-confirm a critical hit... but it's still a 1/day item, so you'd need to get several and swap them out - which you're probably not doing in the middle of a battle, so even with that, it's effectively a 1/fight thing. But yes, a Paladin who pre-casts Bless Weapon, and uses smiting with a Scythe could one shot a rather lot of things... on the second round of combat (an Immediate action on your own turn is a swift, and you'll need one of those to activate Smite, another to use the helm).

[Roticet]

The cyclops helm lets you, once per day, choose the number result on your next (most) d20 roll. The item costs 5,600gp. Now we know from the magic item creation chart that a 1/day item costs 1/5 of the item being at will. So just multiply the existing price by 5 and now every single attack/save/skill/ability roll you make is a nat 20, for only 28k gp.

So just multiply the existing price by 5 and now every single attack/save/skill/ability roll you make is a nat 20, for only 28k gp.

That seems ridiculously inexpensive. I don't know anything about pathfinder, but in DND only gods can guarantee Nat 20's all the time. So, a 28k GP helm has the same power as a god? There's OP, then there's OMG OP/NERFNOW!!! I'm all for unbalancing games and seeing how far I can break them. Do that with a lot of video games, and doing that now with the campaign I'm running, but even I wouldn't allow this. Especially for that price. Personally, I would make that item cost more to make (since it's replicating a god's power) and I would add a couple of extra abilities, cause only one power on an artifact seems lackluster to me.

I like it though. Gives me some ideas for my players. Thanks. :)

[upho]

It seems OP to me even in its base version. You could build a scythe user specifically for this item.It's definitely not a bad item, but also not even remotely close to as fantastic as some people seem to believe, in most cases apparently because the words "immediate action" are invisible to them for some weird reason.

To put it into perspective, a single level of any one PoW initiator class may grant you several different kinds of at least equally powerful immediate actions (= counters), none of them with limited uses per day. Not to mention a few more levels and/or a couple of feats and you'll be able to make two or more of those immediate actions per round. And I can't remember anyone complaining about this being OP, yet I'm pretty certain very few characters using counters are interested in this item.


So just multiply the existing price by 5 and now every single attack/save/skill/ability roll you make is a nat 20, for only 28k gp.I can't tell for sure if you're being sarcastic, so just in case you're actually not:

No, absolutely not. Please read the replies.


I like it though. Gives me some ideas for my players. Thanks. :):smalleek: No, please don't! I strongly recommend you save your players and your game from introducing utterly broken house rules. Again, none of the things of you seem to believe this hypothetical item does are rules legal.

[flamewolf393]

Keep in mind you can make more than one swift or immediate action a turn, it just uses up your next highest action to do so. So do it a second time and youve used up your move action, do it a third time and youve used up your standard action, thus your whole round is gone.


Also I would like to state that I never use cheese like this in real games. I love the thought experiments but breaking the game too much makes it boring. Unless its a game where the DM specifically says "bring it on bitches" or Im the DM and this is my high level end boss thats meant to be cheesy just to provide some kind of threat.

[Der_DWSage]

Incorrect. Aside from a Corset of Delicate Movement that allows you to convert a Move action into a Swift action Once per day, you cannot take more than one swift action per round. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Swift-Actions

[upho]

Keep in mind you can make more than one swift or immediate action a turn, it just uses up your next highest action to do so. So do it a second time and youve used up your move action, do it a third time and youve used up your standard action, thus your whole round is gone.In 4e, yes. But as Der_DWSage pointed out, this is definitely not the general rule in 3.5 or PF, and there are very few exceptions to this. (Note that the options in PoW I mentioned don't grant you an additional immediate action, but the ability to use a readied counter without expending your swift/immediate action for the round.)

Per default, you can however use an immediate action even if you have used a swift during your own turn, but doing so eats up the swift action of your next turn.


Also I would like to state that I never use cheese like this in real games. I love the thought experiments but breaking the game too much makes it boring. Unless its a game where the DM specifically says "bring it on bitches" or Im the DM and this is my high level end boss thats meant to be cheesy just to provide some kind of threat.Theory-op is all well and good - and can be great fun - but selectively ignoring certain explicit rules and guidelines while following others is quite another thing. IOW, this isn't a case of exploiting rules ambiguity or unintended loopholes, but a case of simply breaking the rules and ignoring the guidelines.

[flamewolf393]

Um, yeah it is? Literally every game ive ever been in, including PFS has done it. When using an action you can always perform a lesser action in its place. Its the whole reason you can do two move actions in a round instead of a move and standard. For a standard action you can do a move action, or a swift action. For a move action you can do a swift action.

It also makes logical sense. A standard action takes about 4 seconds, a move action takes about 2 seconds, a swift action takes <1 second. You can take the 2 second period, or the 4 second period to do a <1 second action.

[AvatarVecna]

Any trick that involves both "abide by RAW this time, even though its silly" and then "ignore RAW, because this time its silly" isn't gonna convince basically anybody, so even if this was allowed you'd be hard-pressed to get it more than once per round. Plus, magic items are pretty easy to shut down, it's just that DMs hold back because dispelling/AMFing/disjunctioning players is something most players aren't awful enough to deserve.

If you want a version of this trick that's a bit harder to shut down, and requires resource investment significant enough that it doesn't feel as cheesy, go Cyclopean Seer oracle. Capstone basically requires a particular Revelation be taken (which is "immediate action: choose the result of a d20 you roll" with per-day uses), and the Capstone makes it so that if you choose a number that isn't greater than your Cha mod, you don't expend the use. If you can pull off a Cha 50 (it's...possible), you could get that 1/round nat 20 pretty easily. More likely, though, you'll end up with your capstone letting you 1/round take 10 on basically anything (or maybe higher, depending on how much you're cheesing your Cha).

EDIT: Naturally, this trick is a lot more useful in epic PF games, where 1) gaining something at 20th lvl is more than just one last circle-jerk, and 2) where DMs are gonna be less lactose-intolerant.

And I'm not saying that a DM letting you use a move action to take an additional swift action is an unreasonable thing that no DM will ever allow - but if you've got super-cheese that's tied to taking swift actions, suddenly they're gonna be a lot more by-the-book on that particular aspect of the action economy.

[Rynjin]

Um, yeah it is? Literally every game ive ever been in, including PFS has done it. When using an action you can always perform a lesser action in its place. Its the whole reason you can do two move actions in a round instead of a move and standard. For a standard action you can do a move action, or a swift action. For a move action you can do a swift action.

It also makes logical sense. A standard action takes about 4 seconds, a move action takes about 2 seconds, a swift action takes <1 second. You can take the 2 second period, or the 4 second period to do a <1 second action.

Your PFS GMs are mistaken and have skewed scenario results, then.

The Standard to Move conversion is the only specific exception to the one use of one type of action rule.

[upho]

I feel it is my duty as a Playgrounder to repeat this masterpiece of a sentence, just in case anyone missed it:
in epic PF games, where 1) gaining something at 20th lvl is more than just one last circle-jerk, and 2) where DMs are gonna be less lactose-intolerant.Now that is one an amazingly astute and hilariously evocative illustration of the truth!

In fact, I better do that again:
in epic PF games, where 1) gaining something at 20th lvl is more than just one last circle-jerk, and 2) where DMs are gonna be less lactose-intolerant.Yep. I'm still in awe. And still laughing so hard I'm having trouble typing...

Thank you, AvatarVecna. Please let me know if you ever write a book and I'll make certain Svenska Akademin (https://www.svenskaakademien.se/en/the-nobel-prize-in-literature) gets a copy... :smallbiggrin:

*goes off to plan next session for a 12th level party of lactose-intolerant circle-jerking*