Help me understand why I'd want to use martial maneuvers

[Nebuul]

I was looking at the swordsage, and I noticed that most of its maneuvers (especially strikes) are standard actions. The effects are nice, but they rarely seemed good enough to warrant losing iterative attacks from a full attack action. What am I missing?

[StevenC21]

Anything to make martials more interesting than "I full attack every round"

[MisterKaws]

For one, the Nightmare Blades are almost always stronger than a level-equivalent full attack. Insightful Strike is also very good with lighter weapons. Other disciplines also have their toys (except Desert Wind, which sucks). And most important of all... your two last iterative attacks will almost always miss, unless you optimize for attack bonuses and then don't use Power Attack, which is dumb, cause you could be doing a single Diamond Nightmare Blade with a +8 to damage for each -1 to attack. And since it's done at your highest bab, you're very likely to hit even with a -5 or -10.

[Venger]

they're spells. in addition to dealing more damage than just hitting enemies with a stick, they do other things hitting them with a stick can't do, such as inflict statuses, ability damage, etc. this is to say nothing of the ones beyond strikes that let you fly or teleport, providing valuable utility.

[Eldariel]

They scale. By the time you have multiple attacks in a full attack, many of the standard action strikes get pretty good. There are also full attack action maneuvers (Flashing Sun, Avalanche of Blades, Time Stands Still, Greater Divine Surge, Pouncing Charge, etc.), which are pretty good and work with iteratives. In short, you don't have to but sometimes you wanna move and attack. And some of the effects (the lost turn in the Diamond Mind Strike I don't remember the name for for instance) are just worth it. Plus, yeah, more fun to play.

[mabriss lethe]

Also, using maneuvers tends to be less build intensive that other methods to achieve the same things.
An initiator has a number of maneuvers that allow them to effectively mimic combat options that would normally require feats. In terms of build resources it's got roughly the value of a single spell known to a sorcerer.

[Nebuul]

I appreciate all of the input, everyone!

[magic9mushroom]

I was looking at the swordsage, and I noticed that most of its maneuvers (especially strikes) are standard actions. The effects are nice, but they rarely seemed good enough to warrant losing iterative attacks from a full attack action. What am I missing?

Okay, as a random example let's go through Iron Heart's level 3+ manoeuvres (level 1 and 2 are before you have iteratives anyway unless you're doing TWF) that take a standard action or more.

Exorcism of Steel: Okay, yeah, this one sucks. It's a sunder that inflicts penalties to using the weapon, but if you can't destroy a weapon in 1 hit you definitely shouldn't be sundering it anyway (leaving aside the WBL issue).

Iron Heart Surge: Terribly written, but either RAW or RAI you can get rid of some really annoying things. Situational, but worth the action in the right situation.

Mithral Tornado: This is Whirlwind Attack, except it doesn't cost five feats, it's a standard action instead of full-round, and you get +2 to hit. If you can get adjacent to 3+ opponents with your move action this'll do more than a full attack (and Tumble is in-class for warblades and swordsages).

Dazing Strike: When PCs outnumber monsters, trading your action to negate theirs is a good deal. This does that, and some damage as well. Full attack is better if it can drop them, of course, but this is definitely worth it against "boss"-type enemies that you can't drop in one full attack.

Finishing Move: +6d6 probably isn't enough to be worth giving up a full attack, but +14d6 often is. This is a pretty "meh" move, though.

Adamantine Hurricane: This is two simultaneous Whirlwind Attacks with a +4 bonus and no penalty for the iterative, and it's still a standard action. Move over, fighter.

Lightning Throw: 30ft line (which, remember, is every square that contacts the line, potentially up to 2x6 squares), you hit all of them for normal melee damage (including Power Attack for full, because you still do half damage if you miss) and then add another 12d6. Again, move over, fighter.

Strike of Perfect Clarity: Again, somewhat "meh" due to only doing extra damage, though at least it's a guaranteed +100.

So that's two that are hilariously better than full attack if there are multiple opponents, one that's better than full attack if there are multiple opponents, one that's better than full attack if there aren't multiple opponents, one "get out of jail free" card that isn't really in competition with a full attack, two "meh", and one that's terrible.

Full attacks definitely aren't something you never use (helps that they refresh all manoeuvres for a warblade), but the strikes are competitive, and of course if you don't have pounce or start next to an opponent they're way better than a single attack.

[Gnaeus]

Put it another way.

Every effective character above a certain level should be able to:
Fight invisible/incorporeal enemies
Fight things with DR
Be useful on a round in which they must move
Get out of confined combat situations/have alternate movement modes
Resist enemy attacks/spells

ToB can do all that and PoW can do it better. There’s no good way for non-casters to do most of those things other than throwing huge WBL at them.

[Zaq]

Don’t forget that boosts exist, too. With a good mix, you can do standard action strikes on rounds when moving is the best choice and swift action boosts on rounds when you’re already in position to full attack.

(Also echoing the sentiment that simply having options beyond “I attack again” is more fun than doing the exact same full attack routine until the hero falls down dead, the monster falls down dead, or the player falls down asleep from monotony.)

[Mato]

Query: Help me understand why I'd want to use martial maneuvers.
A: Is your fighter using, or even aware of, swift actions?

[Blackhawk748]

I was looking at the swordsage, and I noticed that most of its maneuvers (especially strikes) are standard actions. The effects are nice, but they rarely seemed good enough to warrant losing iterative attacks from a full attack action. What am I missing?

Because I can move and still wallop someone with Mountain Hammer? On top of this I can still do Power Attack with it and ill only "lose out" once we hit level 6. Meanwhile I've been mowing down things since level 1

[Elkad]

They solve the difficulty of getting full attacks, without using resources on Pounce, Travel Devotion, or similar.

You move and take Standard Action strikes, which are similar in power to that full attack.

Or, with things like Sudden Leap or Pouncing Charge, you can get those full attacks anyway.


And of course if the enemy is stupidly standing in full-attack range, you can still just use those and save your Maneuvers as counters/boosts.

The alternative is every melee build uses either a Barb dip for pounce, or a Cleric dip for Travel.

You can do builds that aren't strength dependent, and even skip Power Attack and count on maneuvers to bring your damage up to par.

They are even fun for Wizards if you want to blow a few feats. Take Mind over Body, something else defensive, and then Greater Insightful Strike. You've pumped Concentration anyway, so when the Str:8 Wizard gets swallowed by the Remorhaz, he can poke it with his dagger for 50+ damage and escape.