Theory: A New Clan

[kiapet]

So here's an idea that popped into my head while I was rereading recent comics.

We know that:


The old woman who was brainwashed in comic #1155 was voting in the council because of her place as the "matriarch of a major clan."

Gontor had just brainwashed the last person required to get a simple majority when our heroes interrupted him (comic #1158, sorry don't know how to link to it).


With this in mind, I envision the scene going down something like this: Durkon's family bursts into the council chamber, but they are too late. The dwarves are already in the process of voting, and in accordance with their established characterization, dismiss/delay the concerns Durkon and the others raise and go forward with the vote. This leads to a narrow victory on the part of the vampires, until someone (probably Durkon) says, "Wait! There is a clan matriarch present who has yet to cast her vote!"

...and turns to Sigdi.

We know that Durkon's mother, aunts and uncles consider themselves to be a true family and refer to themselves as such (We got yer message. We brought the whole family). They are relatively small and new to be considered a "major clan", but we know that Sigdi is well-respected among the community, Shirra is a wealthy mine-owner, Logann is a Captain, Squeaky is an established bard with apprentices, whatever the niece's fiance is, ect. so they do have a decent amount of social influence. Their claim could at least be good enough to distract the council and buy Durkon time, if not tie the vote outright. And the official recognition of a new clan during the climax would be a lovely finish for the found family memory plotline that has been so central to Durkon's arc.

[Fyraltari]

That’s my opinion as well.
To link to a comic, or any page on the internet, use the url button above the text space or type url={insert url here} inside [] brackets then your text then [/url].

[JohanOfKitten]

It would nicely mirror the tie that Hell brought at the godsmoot.

But what I'm afraid of is that the recognition of the founding of a new clan is a thing that I see being voted by the current council. If so, the vampire only has to tell the domanited elders to decline the claim and therefore avoid the tie. (Though, it would give Durkon some time to deal with the issue)

[Wizard_Lizard]

And then another tiebreaker

[hroþila]

Depending on how exactly this is done on-panel, it could work very well or be very dumb.

[Mad Humanist]

Depending on how exactly this is done on-panel, it could work very well or be very dumb.

It's been a thought in my head for some time. Given the track record of this comic, I would say if it does happen it will be awesome. Perhaps new clans are not decided by vote but by Dvalin himself. And since the decision does not affect all the clans, Dvalin gets to decide it himself without referring it to the council of clans.

[Fyraltari]

Ooh. I like that one.

[Bad Wolf]

It's been a thought in my head for some time. Given the track record of this comic, I would say if it does happen it will be awesome. Perhaps new clans are not decided by vote but by Dvalin himself. And since the decision does not affect all the clans, Dvalin gets to decide it himself without referring it to the council of clans.

It'd be kinda weird if you had to talk to a god to get your family recognized.

[The MunchKING]

It'd be kinda weird if you had to talk to a god to get your family recognized.

They're clerics (OK, Durkon is), talking to Gods is literally their job-description. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

It's been a thought in my head for some time. Given the track record of this comic, I would say if it does happen it will be awesome. Perhaps new clans are not decided by vote but by Dvalin himself. And since the decision does not affect all the clans, Dvalin gets to decide it himself without referring it to the council of clans.

If you follow that to its logical conclusion, then Dvalin could stack the deck by adding enough new clans that would go the way he wants to outnumber all other clans regardless. Whether or not he would, he certainly could, which is reason enough to think he can't do that unilaterally whenever he wants.

[Fyraltari]

It'd be kinda weird if you had to talk to a god to get your family recognized.
He may have sufficient authority to do so but not be necessary. As in, the law may require the agreement of the king, and while he is dead and the crown presumably went to somebody else, he is still technically king.

If you follow that to its logical conclusion, then Dvalin could stack the deck by adding enough new clans that would go the way he wants to outnumber all other clans regardless. Whether or not he would, he certainly could, which is reason enough to think he can't do that unilaterally whenever he wants.

That’s as easy a fix as ‘‘the applicants must be descended from (or married to persons descended from) at least as many as X still living and unrelated persons who have no other living blood relatives’’.

[Quebbster]

And then another tiebreaker

Not necessarily. In case of a tie Dvalin may decide to vote as he sees fit.

[RatElemental]

If you follow that to its logical conclusion, then Dvalin could stack the deck by adding enough new clans that would go the way he wants to outnumber all other clans regardless. Whether or not he would, he certainly could, which is reason enough to think he can't do that unilaterally whenever he wants.

The more clans he adds the harder it gets to assemble them all for a vote and the greater the chance enough of them turn on him to overrule what he stacked the deck to accomplish in the first place.

However, I think it's likely that there's some criteria you need to even qualify to apply for your clan to be recognized to prevent just such a scenario, which Sigdi and her fellows might fulfill.

[Quebbster]

It would be pretty awesome if Clan Firehelm used to be on the council but left their seat vacant now.

[Bad Wolf]

It would be pretty awesome if Clan Firehelm used to be on the council but left their seat vacant now.

Oh, I like thus one.

[hroþila]

It would be pretty awesome if Clan Firehelm used to be on the council but left their seat vacant now.
I will stick to my theory that the Firehelms are new money and thus not part of this clan council. At least until the comic violently forces me to give it up.

[denthor]

My 10 gold is Hilga is the vote for saving the day. She holds the vote for her clan. Unintended consequences the chaotic person ends up being the leader of a lawful Society. Bonus she gets a second vote for thundershield clan by virtue of being the mother of Durkins child.

[Rogar Demonblud]

These are the oldest of clans, the ones who were a power back when Dvalin was actually king. They won't be adding any Stoney-come-lately parvenus. And Hilgya is not the head of the Firehelms in any case. Her eldest brother is.

[dtilque]

Just want to note that I had the OP's idea back in May during the discussion for strip 1165 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23941782#post23941782). I don't know if that was the first posting of it in the forum, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone else came up with it first.

Anyway, here's what I wrote then:

As far as what they'll do inside there, here's my theory:

They won't be able to change the votes of the dominated Councilors. But each of the Councilors is head of a Dwarven Clan. So they'll create a new Clan on the spot, with all of Durkon's extended family plus the Thor clerics as members, headed by Sigdi. She'll vote No, of course. Since the dominated ones are a bare majority, that'll result in the vote being tied. Then the tie-braking rules are consulted, at which point I run out of guesses as to what happens.

In other words, a repeat (of sorts) of the Godsmoot.


ETA: An different thought about what might happen in the Council Chamber: Durkon casts a Summon Proxy for Thor. Now what Thor could do in the proxy form, I'm not sure. Perhaps he could somehow give the dominated councilors a new saving throw against domination. There's enough of them that one or more should surely throw off the effect.

[Fyraltari]

Thor told him he was on his own for this one back in the graveyard. Well apart from giving him awesome magic powers this morning.

[dtilque]

Thor told him he was on his own for this one back in the graveyard. Well apart from giving him awesome magic powers this morning.

And one of those magic powers is to ... cast Summon Proxy. I'm not saying Thor is going to use his magic to give them another saving throw. Rather it would be something Thor says. Yes, Durkon could say the same thing, and maybe that would work. But if that fails, having a god say it would lend it more gravitas, giving them a circumstance bonus for the saving throws.

[Fyraltari]

And one of those magic powers is to ... cast Summon Proxy. I'm not saying Thor is going to use his magic to give them another saving throw. Rather it would be something Thor says. Yes, Durkon could say the same thing, and maybe that would work. But if that fails, having a god say it would lend it more gravitas, giving them a circumstance bonus for the saving throws.

Thor solving Durkon’s problem by talking is no different than Thor solving Durkon’s problem with magic.
Also Summon Proxy allows the Gods to talk to each other not interact with mortals.
Also also you can’t give thralls new saving throws by talking to them.

[Mad Humanist]

I don't think Durkon (as opposed to High Priestess Rubyrock or the ex-vampire formerly known as the High Priest of Hel) has the Summon Proxy spell. Access to it is granted on a need to have basis. And that need is dictated by High Priest status and the icky-sticky rules the gods more or less abide by.

[Quebbster]

Just want to note that I had the OP's idea back in May during the discussion for strip 1165 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23941782#post23941782). I don't know if that was the first posting of it in the forum, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone else came up with it first.

Anyway, here's what I wrote then:



ETA: An different thought about what might happen in the Council Chamber: Durkon casts a Summon Proxy for Thor. Now what Thor could do in the proxy form, I'm not sure. Perhaps he could somehow give the dominated councilors a new saving throw against domination. There's enough of them that one or more should surely throw off the effect.

There's no such thing as "a new idea" in this forum. Something just feel their ideas warrant their own thread, and sometimes they are right.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thor told him he was on his own for this one back in the graveyard. Well apart from giving him awesome magic powers this morning.

What worries me is how many people don't realize that Thor was being sarcastic there. He's been giving Durkon and every other cleric a large slice of help every day since they were ordained and they just take it for granted.

[Dion]

Durkon’s grandpa recently died, and his death was important enough to show up in a comic about 800 strips ago.

My guess: Durkon’s grandpa was a clan elder.

Durkon’s grandfather is dead.
Durkon’s father is dead.
Durkon was dead when the council was called to meet.

That makes Kudzu the clan elder!

They’ll just wait until he’s old enough to vote.

[Peelee]

Durkon’s grandpa recently died, and his death was important enough to show up in a comic about 800 strips ago.

My guess: Durkon’s grandpa was a clan elder.

Durkon’s grandfather is dead.
Durkon’s father is dead.
Durkon was dead when the council was called to meet.

That makes Kudzu the clan elder!

They’ll just wait until he’s old enough to vote.

I'm confused why you seem to think only males can be elders when we've explicitly seen female elders. Have you theorized that Sigdi is going to die elsewhere and I haven't seen it?

[Dion]

I'm confused why you seem to think only males can be elders when we've explicitly seen female elders. Have you theorized that Sigdi is going to die elsewhere and I haven't seen it?

I assume Durkon’s grandfather was Tenrin’s dad, not Sigdi’s.

Edit: hmm... I honestly don’t know if ThunderShield was Sigdi’s maiden name, or her married name. Heck, I don’t even think there’s any reason to assume dwarven clan names are patrilineal.

[Peelee]

I assume Durkon’s grandfather was Tenrin’s dad, not Sigdi’s.

Edit: hmm... I honestly don’t know if ThunderShield was Sigdi’s maiden name, or her married name. Heck, I don’t even think there’s any reason to assume dwarven clan names are patrilineal.

And now I'm embarrassed because I didn't even think of that. I just assumed that Sigdi was always a Thundershield to begin with.

[hroþila]

I assume Durkon’s grandfather was Tenrin’s dad, not Sigdi’s.

Edit: hmm... I honestly don’t know if ThunderShield was Sigdi’s maiden name, or her married name. Heck, I don’t even think there’s any reason to assume dwarven clan names are patrilineal.
I think Durkon's talk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) about being buried in his "ancestral tomb" with his family, namely his pappy, granpappy, great-granpappy, etc. strongly suggests dwarven clans are patrilineal. That said, this might vary from one family to the next.

[Mad Humanist]

I think Durkon's talk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) about being buried in his "ancestral tomb" with his family, namely his pappy, granpappy, great-granpappy, etc. strongly suggests dwarven clans are patrilineal. That said, this might vary from one family to the next.

I have this feeling that the Giant's politics got a bit more radical over time and that this comes from his early less "woke" period. I'm sure it's still canon. I suspect the reconciliation is that it just happens to be a line of males in Durkon's family but there is no family rule saying that is the way it is.

Also the whole point of Sigdi's clan (if that is what we get) is that it is a clan of choice not of lineage.

[Dion]

From a story perspective, it makes a lot more sense for Sigdi to cast a vote as a clan elder (if that’s the way this story gets resolved).

From a comic perspective, its a lot funnier if Kudzu has to vote (“tun undeh! tun undeh!”)

[a_flemish_guy]

"I'm sorry madam, but only if you or one in your bloodline has done an extra-ordinary feat or is in any other way in extreme favour from the gods you're allowed to vote in this meeting"
"is that so, durkon, come and show the nice lady the hammer you got from thor!"
"ah but ma!"

[dtilque]

I don't think Durkon (as opposed to High Priestess Rubyrock or the ex-vampire formerly known as the High Priest of Hel) has the Summon Proxy spell. Access to it is granted on a need to have basis. And that need is dictated by High Priest status and the icky-sticky rules the gods more or less abide by.

Then what spell is the priestess of Dvalin going to cast in this council in order to let him address it? She's not Dvalin's High Priest (that HP is at the Godsmoot). Well, whatever spell she's going to cast, Durkon could probably cast that too. Not saying he is, but there's no reason he can't.

[Mad Humanist]

Then what spell is the priestess of Dvalin going to cast in this council in order to let him address it? She's not Dvalin's High Priest (that HP is at the Godsmoot). Well, whatever spell she's going to cast, Durkon could probably cast that too. Not saying he is, but there's no reason he can't.

This priestess of Dvalin has a legitimate need for the spell. If you want it in game terms I believe this spell requires a feat to cast. And all that feat does is grant you access to the spell. And to get the feat you need to be given a job that means you need to cast it. Of course it might have more typical spell casting requirements as well.


"I'm sorry madam, but only if you or one in your bloodline has done an extra-ordinary feat or is in any other way in extreme favour from the gods you're allowed to vote in this meeting"
"is that so, durkon, come and show the nice lady the hammer you got from thor!"
"ah but ma!"

Yeah I could see that happening.

[Morquard]

Ok, I honestly don't think their entire plan hinges on the fact that they can maybe, possibly, somehow convince the council that a new clan should be accepted into their ranks.

It's for me, much more likely that Durkon or another dwarf is going "to take one for the team" and knock at least one of the thralls out before they get stoned. Their margin is minimal, taking out a single one would shift the balance. Taking out the vampire would be even better but likely not as easy.

Third option (that I think is still more likely than the new clan) is that Durkon has figured out a spell, or something that is not "against dwarven law" but will severly mess up the Vampire. I have no idea what that could be though. Maybe he invokes an ancient rite, a Trial By Combat of sorts, and by declining the vampire is the one breaking the law and gets stoned, and by accepting would open herself up to getting attacked by Durkon.

[Dion]

Third option (that I think is still more likely than the new clan) is that Durkon has figured out a spell, or something that is not "against dwarven law" but will severly mess up the Vampire

Maybe Durkon’s spell “mass death ward”?

I doubt it breaks vampire domination, but who knows?

It’s also possible that Nergal’s clerics know how to counteract that spell, but Hel’s clerics don’t. That could set up a proxy conflict between Nergal and Hel!

Or... Kudzu is the elder.

[RatElemental]

Maybe Durkon’s spell “mass death ward”?

I doubt it breaks vampire domination, but who knows?

It’s also possible that Nergal’s clerics know how to counteract that spell, but Hel’s clerics don’t. That could set up a proxy conflict between Nergal and Hel!

Or... Kudzu is the elder.

Death ward doesn't affect domination effects at all. Magic Circle against evil might work though.

[brian 333]

I'm thinking it won't involve spellcasting or combat. Durkon will win based on understanding dwarven law better than a vampire cleric dwarf.

[Riftwolf]

I'm thinking it won't involve spellcasting or combat. Durkon will win based on understanding dwarven law better than a vampire cleric dwarf.

I dunno, pulling out an unmentioned rule will seem a bit cheap. If it was Haley going in I'd expect it to end with the vampires tricked into contradicting each other (not sure if this would break domination (best case scenario) or just cause the dominated to brain-freeze (more likely)), but it wouldn't feel in keeping with Durkon's personality to trick someone. (I'm not counting Durkula as it wasn't really a trick, more an Empathy Falcon Punch with enough guts behind it to work)

[Ruck]

ETA: An different thought about what might happen in the Council Chamber: Durkon casts a Summon Proxy for Thor. Now what Thor could do in the proxy form, I'm not sure. Perhaps he could somehow give the dominated councilors a new saving throw against domination. There's enough of them that one or more should surely throw off the effect.


Thor told him he was on his own for this one back in the graveyard. Well apart from giving him awesome magic powers this morning.


What worries me is how many people don't realize that Thor was being sarcastic there. He's been giving Durkon and every other cleric a large slice of help every day since they were ordained and they just take it for granted.

Let's look at the strip:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html

He's being sarcastic when he needles Durkon with "Gosh, I could give you amazing magical spells on demand every single morning," but I don't think he's being sarcastic when he says he can't fix it for Durkon or come down from the skies to solve the problem or anything. Which is more or less what is being proposed by dtilque.

[jwhouk]

The little-known thing about Dwarven Law is that, if the Council of Clan Elders vote is tied on any consideration Dvalin puts before them, he gets to cast the deciding vote.

[RatElemental]

I dunno, pulling out an unmentioned rule will seem a bit cheap. If it was Haley going in I'd expect it to end with the vampires tricked into contradicting each other (not sure if this would break domination (best case scenario) or just cause the dominated to brain-freeze (more likely)), but it wouldn't feel in keeping with Durkon's personality to trick someone. (I'm not counting Durkula as it wasn't really a trick, more an Empathy Falcon Punch with enough guts behind it to work)

I doubt they'd have each dwarf dominated by multiple vampires, but if they do and give conflicting orders then whichever vampire wins an opposed charisma check against the other will be the vampire whose orders the dominated dwarves follow.

[Jannoire]

There's only one vampire present, so Haley would just need to talk Nonameula into contradicting herself...
Also Gonetor just left the battlefield outside, so he is likely in the inner chamber as well...

[ijuinkun]

"I'm sorry madam, but only if you or one in your bloodline has done an extra-ordinary feat or is in any other way in extreme favour from the gods you're allowed to vote in this meeting"
"is that so, durkon, come and show the nice lady the hammer you got from thor!"
"ah but ma!"

Thor has more or less made Durkon his Champion for his gambit to save the current world . . .

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's only one vampire present, so Haley would just need to talk Nonameula into contradicting herself...
Also Gonetor just left the battlefield outside, so he is likely in the inner chamber as well...

Haley's outside with the nightcrawler just now. And she can't past the 'You must be a dwarf' barrier anyway.

[D.One]

Haley's outside with the nightcrawler just now. And she can't past the 'You must be a dwarf' barrier anyway.

Been thinking... what if, as a surprise backup plan, someone of the order is wearing a belt of dwarvenkind?

[Rogar Demonblud]

It takes weeks of failed saves to make you a dwarf, and you cannot undo the changes even with a wish, so the character will undergo a permanent redesign that needs to be explained repeatedly to readers who aren't fluent with D&D artefacts. Rich isn't going to inflict that on himself.

[Aquillion]

According to the rules of the spell on the chamber, is all this complicated planning even needed? You turn to stone if you break the rules, but it doesn't say that that action is prevented. So one Dispel Magic targeted at a charmed dwarf will cost the vampires their simple majority.

[D.One]

According to the rules of the spell on the chamber, is all this complicated planning even needed? You turn to stone if you break the rules, but it doesn't say that that action is prevented. So one Dispel Magic targeted at a charmed dwarf will cost the vampires their simple majority.

Dispel Magic wouldn't really do the work, since it doesn't dispel Supernatural Abilities such as Vampire Domination gaze. Maybe Break Enchantment, since it's unclear if it affects effects other than spells (but since the bards believe their break-enchantment-equivalent Song of Freedom can do the trick, it's reasonably safe to assume Break Enchantment could).

It's unclear (at least for us) if the petrification occurs after the action is completed or if it interrupts the action, preventing it.

I honestly believe part of the solution will include making the vampire (and, perhaps, some of the dominated dwarves) comit some fault that petrifies them.

OTOH, a thought came to me: is it a break of dwarven law if someone gently and non-aggressively carries someone else out of the blue room?


It takes weeks of failed saves to make you a dwarf, and you cannot undo the changes even with a wish, so the character will undergo a permanent redesign that needs to be explained repeatedly to readers who aren't fluent with D&D artefacts. Rich isn't going to inflict that on himself.

My bad. I misremembered the Belt of Dwarvenkind as if it gave the dwarf subtype (I've checked, in 3.5 it doesn't).

[Rogar Demonblud]

No, it won't. The guy with the rule book in his hands explicitly states that nobody can do that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html).

[Aquillion]

Dispel Magic wouldn't really do the work, since it doesn't dispel Supernatural Abilities such as Vampire Domination gaze.It's an ambiguous point in 3.5e. There was an errata in 3e specifically stating that Dispel Magic works on Supernatural abilities that resemble spells, but this was never explicitly copied over to 3.5e and wasn't reproduced in the published 3.5e text, leading to constant arguments.

However, the vampire specifically mentioned Dispel Magic as a concern, which implies that in OOTS, Dispel Magic does in fact work on Supernatural abilities that mimic spells as it did in 3e.

[D.One]

Anyway, I don't believe this situation will be solved by the simple casting of a spell. Probably the main point for resolving the plot will come from the fact that Durkon (and his dwarven allies) also know the rules for the "Dwarfsmoot" and will be able to navigate those rules better than newborn vampires.