PDA

View Full Version : Exemples of Iconic Warlocks in the media?



Matinta
2019-07-04, 12:57 PM
So a new guy just came to our D&D group and he argued that the Warlock was exclusivly a D&D thing.

I said "No way, that's totally a staple character from all sorts of media" so can you guys help me prove him wrong?

What I have so far:

-Ghost rider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIqDIujqJpc
He clearly got his power with a demonic deal but isntead of serving his demon Patron he uses the powers against him.

-Corvo and Emily from the Dishonered series. They both got their power from a mysterious and cryptic multidimensional being.
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/THr-aNCGr5fOR1ajpR-shPKDC8k=/0x0:1600x900/1200x800/filters:focal(672x322:928x578)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/52845457/Dishonored_2_characters.0.jpg

They formed a deal with him and their power manifests weird symbols in their bodies.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dishonoredvideogame/images/1/18/Dishonored-The_Mark.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/185?cb=20121018104847

-Liliana from MTG:

She didn't got most of her powers from the pact (She was a powerful necromancer on her on right) but it did greatly increase her power and it was one of the main themes on her story. Besides keeping her young.

It also manifests as symbols and marks on her body. It seems to be a recurring theme.

http://media.wizards.com/2015/images/daily/ARC20150728_Demonic-Tutor.jpg
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0350/8049/files/5_dff7227a-63f5-40db-b935-e432f72e9ff1_large.png?v=1494477222
https://crystal-cdn4.crystalcommerce.com/photos/6429379/en_y9J1ignN8S.png

That's what I got so far... Anyone has any other idea?

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-04, 01:57 PM
From the top of my head:

-Elric of Melniboné, Arioch and Stormbringer.
-Soul nomad main character, The Onix blade and gig.
-Jean Gray and The phoenix force.
-Illyana Rasputin as Magick and the soul sword.
-Mr. Norrell and the Stranger.
-The Highlander?

Tanarii
2019-07-04, 03:07 PM
- Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden (Fallen Angel Lasciel, then Queen Mab, and arguably Demonreach Genius Loci)
- Raistlin Majere (spirit of Fistandantilus)

GloatingSwine
2019-07-04, 03:08 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust

Also, a pact with the devil was often considered to be the nature of witches' powers in medieval lore.

LibraryOgre
2019-07-04, 03:22 PM
The Witch OCC from Palladium Fantasy/Rifts. The Rifts implementation of Vampires (where they are empowered by Cthuloid beings called "Vampire Intelligences") bear a lot of similarities.

I think Spawn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spawn_(comics)) would qualify.

MeimuHakurei
2019-07-04, 03:24 PM
-Arielle the Mermaid (pacted with Ursula)
-Raven, of the Teen Titans (gained her powers from her patron Trigon, even if not willingly)
-Prince Adam of Eternia (the magic sword of Castle Greyskull is exactly the kind of weapon a Hexblade would have)

Particle_Man
2019-07-04, 03:49 PM
Green Lantern. Pact with little blue guys to shoot green blasts (and shape them to do cool stuff).

Tim the Enchanter from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Blast, blast, blast!

Many “blaster” heroes and villains. Iron Man was mentioned in another Warlock thread. Lightning Lad works too. More blaster than pact-maker, mind you.

Daleks work if you squint a bit. Exterminate!

LibraryOgre
2019-07-04, 03:51 PM
-Raven, of the Teen Titans (gained her powers from her patron Trigon, even if not willingly)

Arguably a Sorcerer, but a good one.


-Prince Adam of Eternia (the magic sword of Castle Greyskull is exactly the kind of weapon a Hexblade would have)

Dammit, now I want to play that.

She-ra would also fall under this. And a lot of sentai, I imagine (q.v. the Power Rangers, given their powers by Zordon)

Personification
2019-07-04, 03:55 PM
--FaustEric
-All Knights Radiant (rare good variant, also often palladin-like)

No brains
2019-07-04, 04:08 PM
Part of the trouble in figuring this out is drawing the line between a god and a patron. Is Marvel Comics Thor a Cleric of Odin or a Hexblade of Mjolnir? Spell list and durability notwithstanding.

Beleriphon
2019-07-04, 06:11 PM
Part of the trouble in figuring this out is drawing the line between a god and a patron. Is Marvel Comics Thor a Cleric of Odin or a Hexblade of Mjolnir? Spell list and durability notwithstanding.

Isn't he a fighter with a super-artifact weapon? :smallwink:

As for actual characters that share warlock like pacts, there are lots.

I'll just leave this here:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DealWithTheDevil

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-04, 06:25 PM
In the comics at least Thor is clearly a Binder.


Isn't he a fighter with a super-artifact weapon? :smallwink:

As for actual characters that share warlock like pacts, there are lots.

I'll just leave this here:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DealWithTheDevil

I don't think that Tv tropes link id actually any help.

Despite pacts with extadimensional creatures being a key aspect of a Warlock they are not the only feature of the class.

They are humans who enter pacts in exchange for magical powers.

So not all people who enter in supernatural deals and pacts are Warlcoks, but all Warlocks entered in supernatural deals and pacts.

In that link we have all sorts of stuff from actual Warlocks to people who traded their souls for a sandwich (Not an Warlock).


“blaster” heroes and villains. Iron Man was mentioned in another Warlock thread.

That's really dumb, he's clearly a wizard using his int to solve cosmic issues.

I mean he single handed solved time travel in the last movie. He always has a plan, armor and machine for something, any situation, as long he has time to prepare.

Excession
2019-07-04, 06:50 PM
For something I watched recently, "mages" in the setting of The Ancient Magus' Bride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ancient_Magus%27_Bride) perform magic by making bargains and trading with fey creatures. They still have some form of innate magic, but they can't use it directly. This is distinct from "sorcerers" that can use magic more directly, and are portrayed as more scientific. Mages there are pretty close to fey-pact warlocks in D&D rules, though lacking a single patron.

The pattern of making bargains with fey creatures is pretty common in folklore and mythologic.

Particle_Man
2019-07-04, 08:00 PM
Are we talking about 5e or 3.5? The latter allows for ancestors to have made the pact.


In the comics at least Thor is clearly a Binder.



I don't think that Tv tropes link id actually any help.

Despite pacts with extadimensional creatures being a key aspect of a Warlock they are not the only feature of the class.

They are humans who enter pacts in exchange for magical powers.

So not all people who enter in supernatural deals and pacts are Warlcoks, but all Warlocks entered in supernatural deals and pacts.

In that link we have all sorts of stuff from actual Warlocks to people who traded their souls for a sandwich (Not an Warlock).



That's really dumb, he's clearly a wizard using his int to solve cosmic issues.

I mean he single handed solved time travel in the last movie. He always has a plan, armor and machine for something, any situation, as long he has time to prepare.

Psyren
2019-07-05, 03:20 AM
Corvo is definitely a solid example; his magic is very limited/narrow in focus, and the stranger definitely fits the bill as a patron.


Are we talking about 5e or 3.5? The latter allows for ancestors to have made the pact.

You could do that in 5e too - the important point is that the pact is binding to the warlock, which could apply to careless wording by an ancestor.

Kitten Champion
2019-07-05, 04:16 AM
Lina inverse is somewhat of a Warlock. Black magic in Slayers is drawn from demons, but rather than gathering magic from a patron that encompasses all black magical spells like drawing water from a specific well, different spells are instead taken from individual demons who each need to be tapped individually for different spells. Which means black magic can be utterly ineffective against demons especially when they themselves are the root of the spell's power, and that spells can fade from the world if the demon that spawns it is destroyed.

As it's based on Faust to some degree, the various magic girls from Madoka Magica are heavily flavoured as warlocks. Specifically the outer-worldly patron character plying deals among mortals for immediate power in exchange for an unmentioned price they're to pay down the line.

Timmy Turner from Fairly Odd Parents is pretty much a Warlock, and a very powerful one. So long as his fairy patrons are around and he abides by their magical rules he can fulfill any given wish he wants, albeit with a degree of monkey's paw to it.

Kyutaru
2019-07-05, 05:23 AM
Uzumaki Naruto

As a jinchuriki, he makes a pact with a demon and gains powers from it.


Pretty much anyone who sells their soul to Hell would also be considered a warlock if they gained magic from it.

Draconi Redfir
2019-07-05, 06:01 AM
Perhaps Sylvanus Windrunner the Banshee Queen from World of Warcraft? Most of her powers initially came from Arthas / the Lich King after he raised her into an undead. Since then she's gained new powers, including at least two instances of Resurrection from the Val'kyr.

Similarly, Talion the Deathwalker from the Shadow of Mordor/War games would also fit. As his powers come from an elven spirit possessing his corpse, and later on a Ring of power.

... still want to see those two fight on an episode of Death Battle...


... Maaayyyybeee Gordon Freeman? He has his thing with the G-man. though i don't think he gains any unique powers or abilities from it.

i think Point-man and Paxton from the F.E.A.R. franchise get their powers from Alma. though that's more hereditary then granted i believe. their powers are their own. Edit: Nah, they sorcerers or psions at best.

"You" in MASSIVE CHALICE might count. you were created by a chalice as an immortal ruler and commander. and when the Chalice dies, so do you.

the Commander in Xcom 2 may count, depending on how much you believe the Etherials have to do with his existence.




Timmy Turner from Fairly Odd Parents is pretty much a Warlock, and a very powerful one. So long as his fairy patrons are around and he abides by their magical rules he can fulfill any given wish he wants, albeit with a degree of monkey's paw to it.

If Timmy Turner is a Warlock, then that means that for at least a short while, Aladdin is too:smalleek:

JMS
2019-07-05, 06:01 AM
- Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden (Fallen Angel Lasciel, then Queen Mab, and arguably Demonreach Genius Loci)

Let's see. Harry also gets soulfire from an archangel, so he has been a Fiendish, Celestial, fey, and whatever Demonreach is. Just need Great Old One (Unlikely, unless some weird stuff from his origin gives stuff, brought up in Cold Days, he has a weirdly easy time of killing outsiders, in a relative sense.) Hexblade (One of the Swords? He gets a warden's blade?), and Undying (No idea)

No brains
2019-07-05, 06:46 AM
... Maaayyyybeee Gordon Freeman? He has his thing with the G-man. though i don't think he gains any unique powers or abilities from it.

He doesn't use a magic wand, he uses a science wand. *crowbar**crowbar**crowbar*

Beleriphon
2019-07-05, 09:31 AM
Let's see. Harry also gets soulfire from an archangel, so he has been a Fiendish, Celestial, fey, and whatever Demonreach is. Just need Great Old One (Unlikely, unless some weird stuff from his origin gives stuff, brought up in Cold Days, he has a weirdly easy time of killing outsiders, in a relative sense.) Hexblade (One of the Swords? He gets a warden's blade?), and Undying (No idea)

I feel like Demonreach is probably a GOO of some kind, at least the closest in Dresden Files, unless we talked about Outsiders. But those are more like Far Realm stuff in D&D.

Tanarii
2019-07-05, 09:31 AM
Despite pacts with extadimensional creatures being a key aspect of a Warlock they are not the only feature of the class.

They are humans who enter pacts in exchange for magical powers.
Similarly, not all of a warlocks power must come from their supernatural pact. They also can gain it by their own research and studies. It's just that they took a shortcut to greater power.


Let's see. Harry also gets soulfire from an archangel, so he has been a Fiendish, Celestial, fey, and whatever Demonreach is. Just need Great Old One (Unlikely, unless some weird stuff from his origin gives stuff, brought up in Cold Days, he has a weirdly easy time of killing outsiders, in a relative sense.) Hexblade (One of the Swords? He gets a warden's blade?), and Undying (No idea)
Great old one would definitely be if he entered a pact with and got power from the outsiders. Although at this point that might just result in the end of all existence.

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-05, 12:02 PM
Lina inverse is somewhat of a Warlock. Black magic in Slayers is drawn from demons, but rather than gathering magic from a patron that encompasses all black magical spells like drawing water from a specific well, different spells are instead taken from individual demons who each need to be tapped individually for different spells. Which means black magic can be utterly ineffective against demons especially when they themselves are the root of the spell's power, and that spells can fade from the world if the demon that spawns it is destroyed.

As it's based on Faust to some degree, the various magic girls from Madoka Magica are heavily flavoured as warlocks. Specifically the outer-worldly patron character plying deals among mortals for immediate power in exchange for an unmentioned price they're to pay down the line.

Timmy Turner from Fairly Odd Parents is pretty much a Warlock, and a very powerful one. So long as his fairy patrons are around and he abides by their magical rules he can fulfill any given wish he wants, albeit with a degree of monkey's paw to it.

I think again those are bad exemples.

Lina may drawn some of her powers from demon lords and the lower planes but she's clearly the one one doing the magic, there is no pact, deal or consent involved. She's a wizard true and true.

And Timmy is just a guy with a magic boon from magical creatures. There is no pact of deal involved and most importantly he's not the one doing the magic.

That's a very important aspect of being an warlock, you may borrow the powers of some other creature but YOU are the one casting all the spells even if they are limited in scope.


Perhaps Sylvanus Windrunner the Banshee Queen from World of Warcraft? Most of her powers initially came from Arthas / the Lich King after he raised her into an undead. Since then she's gained new powers, including at least two instances of Resurrection from the Val'kyr.

Great pick! Perhaps even the Lich king himself is a Hexblade warlock who got enough power to become a Lich. Warlcoks can become Liches rigth?


Similarly, Talion the Deathwalker from the Shadow of Mordor/War games would also fit. As his powers come from an elven spirit possessing his corpse, and later on a Ring of power.

Again great pick!



If Timmy Turner is a Warlock, then that means that for at least a short while, Aladdin is too:smalleek:

Hummm... Once more this is just a guy who has a powerful outsider as a servant, Clerics,Wizards do that all the time. If a regular Joe has the help of supernatural creature he's not an Warlock since he's not doing any magic himself.

Now Jafar on the other hand is the perfect exemple, he had no powers before and after findding Genie he gains many magical abilities. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2Qqh-yHEU)

Now in the MCU I always found this scene of Loki bargaining his terms of service to The other and by extension Thanos as very Warlock-y in nature.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFEvUT0PvI

But he's more of a Illusionist wizard than a Warlock in the actual movies.

Now to me at least the best character to incorporate Warlock mechanics and themes in the MCU is Vision.

He gets his power from an infinity stone which he admits to not know anything about, so this powerful and mysterious force gives him the power to cast blasts pf pure energy (Eldrich Blast?) float and become spectral. To me he's a perfect example of an Warlock in that movie franchise.

Now for something unconventional that fits the mechanics but not the themes we have Cap American and Red Skull. I know shocking right? But think about it. He used to be a nobody, a very low strength and constitution human and after being exposed to some energies he has no idea of how they work he got super strong and powerful.

He got a magical shield that always come back to him even if makes no sense and he can use his SUPER high charisma instead of his strength? Sounds like an Warlock to me even if it's a stretch :smalltongue:

At least mechanically speaking.

Mastikator
2019-07-05, 12:15 PM
Kaecilius off the 2016 Doctor Strange movie and and arguably The Ancient One too.

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-05, 12:27 PM
Oh yeah how could I have forgotten!

In Bayonetta universe the only way to use magic is by Warlock means!

Both Umbra Witches (Who make pacts with infernal demons) and the Lumen Sages (who make pacts with "Light is not good" angels of Paradiso) are the only ones capable of using magic in that setting and so long as they are able to keep their patrons happy.

LordEntrails
2019-07-05, 12:33 PM
Sorry folks, you are stretching pretty far to find warlock icons. Not that their aren't, but most of them are recent inventions and are highly debatable. Just note your own language, "maybe", "somewhat" "like" etc.

I mean come on, Iron Man as a warlock? Not even close. He's an artificer. He does not use magic, he uses intelligence and technology to build things to help him out. No other world entity gives him any abilities other than if you argue "God" gave him his intelligence.

Another way to look at it, if "warlock" was a classic trope etc, then they wouldn't be a recent addition to role playing games. And they are recent. They were created during the explosion of crunch and the need to publish something new we were flooded with a few decades ago. Sure they draw their inspiration from old myths and folklore about demon/fey pacts, but those stories are often more about the dangers of such etc.

Anyway, none of that invalidates the value of warlocks, but no one should pretend they are as classically central to RPGs or human storytelling as warriors, priests, rogues, bards and even monks.

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-05, 12:40 PM
Sorry folks, you are stretching pretty far to find warlock icons. Not that their aren't, but most of them are recent inventions and are highly debatable. Just note your own language, "maybe", "somewhat" "like" etc.

I mean come on, Iron Man as a warlock? Not even close. He's an artificer. He does not use magic, he uses intelligence and technology to build things to help him out. No other world entity gives him any abilities other than if you argue "God" gave him his intelligence.

Another way to look at it, if "warlock" was a classic trope etc, then they wouldn't be a recent addition to role playing games. And they are recent. They were created during the explosion of crunch and the need to publish something new we were flooded with a few decades ago. Sure they draw their inspiration from old myths and folklore about demon/fey pacts, but those stories are often more about the dangers of such etc.

Anyway, none of that invalidates the value of warlocks, but no one should pretend they are as classically central to RPGs or human storytelling as warriors, priests, rogues, bards and even monks.

You are too late for this conversation bud.

This Iron man argument has been done a while ago.

Besides that I think most of the exemples here are very solid.

To be honest there are more examples of classic D&D Warlocks in media than classic D&D clerics.

Anymage
2019-07-05, 12:59 PM
If by "warlock" you mean a character who draws their power from a supernatural source (that does not happen to be the capital G God or a direct representative thereof), pacts with otherworldly entities have been used to explain magical powers more often than magic as an applied science has. The specific powers rarely map to D&D warlock powers, but then casters using a memorization/slot system was super rare before D&D popularized it too. As an overall theme, they have way more precedent than the Vance system.

If you look at the mechanical angle where warlocks are primarily blasty casters with a small bag of additional tricks available, again that describes a ton of games and shows. In fact, I'd argue that a refluffed tomelock covers more "wizard" archetype characters than the actual wizard class does. You may not find perfect fits for both the crunch and the fluff, but that's the case of any translation where one source isn't blatantly cribbing from another.

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-05, 01:04 PM
If by "warlock" you mean a character who draws their power from a supernatural source (that does not happen to be the capital G God or a direct representative thereof), pacts with otherworldly entities have been used to explain magical powers more often than magic as an applied science has. The specific powers rarely map to D&D warlock powers, but then casters using a memorization/slot system was super rare before D&D popularized it too. As an overall theme, they have way more precedent than the Vance system.

If you look at the mechanical angle where warlocks are primarily blasty casters with a small bag of additional tricks available, again that describes a ton of games and shows. In fact, I'd argue that a refluffed tomelock covers more "wizard" archetype characters than the actual wizard class does. You may not find perfect fits for both the crunch and the fluff, but that's the case of any translation where one source isn't blatantly cribbing from another.

I think the OP was looking for more thematically and fluff examples. Not mechanical ones.

Friv
2019-07-05, 01:29 PM
I mean, thematically, it's witchcraft. Warlocks are male witches, and that's pretty much that.

So look at any folklore for people who make deals with dark spirits in exchange for power and youth, and that's your warlock. They're usually the villains.

Honest Tiefling
2019-07-05, 02:24 PM
I mean, thematically, it's witchcraft. Warlocks are male witches, and that's pretty much that.

Medieval witchcraft in Europe fits the bill perfectly. Folklore across several different countries believe witches to be people (Sometimes male, sometimes female, it varied a bit) to be people who made a pact with a dark power. Sometimes this dark power made a mark upon the very body of the practitioner, and the patron often gave the witch a familiar, like the one that warlocks can end up with in many different editions.

Hell, Merlin himself would qualify either as a warlock or as a cambion (or both). He's the son of a demon, and his heritage allowed him to cast magic that the humans couldn't. In third edition, being descended from some supernatural bloodline was enough to qualify as a warlock.

Google 'Goya' and 'Witch'. If a circle of people pledging their allegiance to an evil power in a dark ritual doesn't scream 'warlock', then I legitimately don't know what does.

Draconi Redfir
2019-07-05, 03:01 PM
And Timmy is just a guy with a magic boon from magical creatures. There is no pact of deal involved and most importantly he's not the one doing the magic.

That's a very important aspect of being an warlock, you may borrow the powers of some other creature but YOU are the one casting all the spells even if they are limited in scope.
Hummm... Once more this is just a guy who has a powerful outsider as a servant, Clerics,Wizards do that all the time. If a regular Joe has the help of supernatural creature he's not an Warlock since he's not doing any magic himself.

yeah i'm inclined to agree. i never really bought Timmy or Aladdin as warlocks :P

Yora
2019-07-06, 04:34 AM
Raziel from Soul Raver has a Great Old One patron.

Dark Souls is a bit unclear on everything on purpose, but Pyromancers also seem to fit pretty well. Chaos Pyromancy is definitely a warlock power.
All sorcerers in Demon's Souls are warlocks.

Blood Magic in Dragon Age also smells a lot like warlock power. The Darkspawn Emisaries certainly are warlocks of the Archdemons.

Mola Ram in Temple of Doom could also very well be a warlock if he's not a cleric.

GloatingSwine
2019-07-06, 05:30 AM
Blood Magic in Dragon Age also smells a lot like warlock power.

Ironically, it's kind of the opposite.

Blood Mages draw less on the Fade where all the demons live than others. The most common way of learning how to do it is being taught by a demon because other sources of the knowledge have been ruthlessly suppressed, but they aren't involved afterwards.

Drawing on demons for greater power is something any mage in Dragon Age can do.

Keltest
2019-07-06, 08:57 AM
Ironically, it's kind of the opposite.

Blood Mages draw less on the Fade where all the demons live than others. The most common way of learning how to do it is being taught by a demon because other sources of the knowledge have been ruthlessly suppressed, but they aren't involved afterwards.

Drawing on demons for greater power is something any mage in Dragon Age can do.

Well, its more like something NO mage can do. Demons don't give power, at best you can persuade or compel them to do what you want them to for a bit. The only time a demon actually augments a mage's powers is when they possess them and turn them into an abomination, at which point the mage is not actually in the driver's seat anymore.

GloatingSwine
2019-07-06, 09:25 AM
Well, its more like something NO mage can do. Demons don't give power, at best you can persuade or compel them to do what you want them to for a bit. The only time a demon actually augments a mage's powers is when they possess them and turn them into an abomination, at which point the mage is not actually in the driver's seat anymore.

Results are mixed as to who gets to be in charge when they have a demon living in their head. The boss of the wizard tower bit in the first game (whose name I don't remember and refuse to google) was an abomination, but his actual goals were drawn from him being a wizard not a demon which he only busts out for the boss fight. Connor is still the one thinking of things to do and using the power of the demon to enact them. Meanwhile Wynne is 100% in control despite technically being an abomination and when Anders lets Justice in for a ride-along he is influenced but not controlled by it.

So it's not quite as simple as the demon moving in and taking over, at least for everyone. In many of the observed instances it's the person doing the thinking and deciding, the demon is at best a back-seat driver.

Keltest
2019-07-06, 09:45 AM
Results are mixed as to who gets to be in charge when they have a demon living in their head. The boss of the wizard tower bit in the first game (whose name I don't remember and refuse to google) was an abomination, but his actual goals were drawn from him being a wizard not a demon which he only busts out for the boss fight. Connor is still the one thinking of things to do and using the power of the demon to enact them. Meanwhile Wynne is 100% in control despite technically being an abomination and when Anders lets Justice in for a ride-along he is influenced but not controlled by it.

So it's not quite as simple as the demon moving in and taking over, at least for everyone. In many of the observed instances it's the person doing the thinking and deciding, the demon is at best a back-seat driver.

Demons (and spirits) are fairly simple creatures. They'll fixate on their host's goals because they don't have any of their own, but its not the host making the decision. Even Wynne and Anders, when they tap into their spirits, are simply asking the spirits to use their power the same way you would ask another mage to cast a spell for you, rather than tapping into it directly.

Also, his name was Uldred, and I don't believe Abomination-Uldred's goals were actually terribly close to what Mage-Uldred's goals were, there was just some incidental overlap via taking over the tower.

No brains
2019-07-06, 04:09 PM
Raziel from Soul Raver has a Great Old One patron.

Hehe 'raver'. *swings spectral reaver to theme song*

Come to think of it, the 'spells' in Soul Reaver has been so sparse, that casting him as a short-rest recharging warlock makes so much sense.

Though making him a hexblade would also make sense, as his weird powers sort of come from... him. It's a lot of weird to get into if readers don't already know.

LordEntrails
2019-07-06, 10:03 PM
You are too late for this conversation bud.

This Iron man argument has been done a while ago.
Well thanks for the belittling and cursory dismissal.

If you noted, my post was withing 24 hours of the OP and still on the first page of the thread. If that's "too late" and "a while ago" for you, perhaps you should re-evaluate your expectations? Or at least be more polite about expressing them to others.

LordEntrails
2019-07-06, 10:06 PM
So look at any folklore for people who make deals with dark spirits in exchange for power and youth, and that's your warlock. They're usually the villains.

With minor caveats, I have to agree with this. And as such, I withdraw my earlier statement about their not being many examples. Though I don't think the early examples were appropriate, thinking the witch/witchcraft angle, iconic figures are quite common.

Pauly
2019-07-06, 10:18 PM
If you look at Voudou, the Haitian kind as opposed to Hollywood Voodoo, that can be an example of warlocks.

The basic idea is you make a pact with a spirit of dead person to help you. Now Voudou is more of a transactional system, in that you make one deal for one action, it usually isn’t a permanent lease. However powerful priests or priestesses can have a more established and ongoing relationship.

The core remains that every time a sprit helps you payment is required. For most people payment is made in advance, but deferred payments can be negotiated. Welching on a deferred payment is a very bad thing, as the spirit will seek revenge. So for normal people the power can be transferred on a one for one basis. Priests and Priestesses can negotiate a deal where they agree to pay a price every time they call on the spirit for help. Problems for the priest/priestess can arise if they ask the spirit to do something over and above the negotiated deal or get behind in their payments. Often in that situation the spirit will help them but then demand a significant additional payment.

Drakeburn
2019-07-07, 12:15 AM
If you really think about it, Megara from Hercules kind of qualifies.

1. She had Hades resurrect her ex-boyfriend in exchange for her soul.

2. Additionally she has to serve Hades until her sentence is over.

And of course there's Doctor Facilier from The Princess and the Frog who definitely qualifies as a warlock.

Anymage
2019-07-07, 02:02 AM
General deals with the devil are a little warlock-y, but I wouldn't say they really count. If you make a deal for billions of dollars, you have money as your superpower and a dark character flaw. Your money doesn't do anything that Bruce Wayne's doesn't, though. Channeling unnatural forces is the key trait. And while the ability to channel those forces usually does come from some sort of pact, someone who steals hell energy from bound demons is more of a warlock than someone who sold his soul for a big pile of cash.

Knaight
2019-07-07, 04:42 AM
Anyway, none of that invalidates the value of warlocks, but no one should pretend they are as classically central to RPGs or human storytelling as warriors, priests, rogues, bards and even monks.

Mostly because it's a vastly narrower category than almost all of these. "Warriors" is so broad it encompasses a straight up majority of D&D classes (even the mages are all combat mages), "Priests" is a far broader term than "clerics" which actually is a recent addition to the corpus (the whole divine/arcane magic split is downright weird), "Rogues" covers all sorts of guile heroes. Bards being more central than warlocks is debatable. The concept doesn't necessarily map to the term well in either case, and there are a lot of fantasy sorcerers who wouldn't be called sorcerers in D&D jargon but instead fit better as warlocks (not that they'd fit D&D well at all). As for monks what that even holds conceptually is debatable. If you treat it as the subset of warriors that show up in wuxia and related genres, sure, it's pretty broad. That says less about the monk class and more about "warrior" being a ridiculously broad category. If you dig into the specifics then they're another piece of D&D weirdness.

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-07, 09:23 AM
Anyway, none of that invalidates the value of warlocks, but no one should pretend they are as classically central to RPGs or human storytelling as warriors, priests, rogues, bards and even monks.

That's absurd, Rouges the way they look and work in D&D are a D&D thing that because of D&D can be found in video games and stuff. There is no place in fantasy where a fast and acrobatic guy who can use magical items and dress in black cloaks is a staple of fantasy literature. Much like the Barbarian is Based solely on Conan the Rogue is based solely on the Grey Mouser and not an iconic fantasy hero archetype. Thieves are not heros in fantasy period. The only place thieves are heros is in Lankhmar the city of thieves.

Also, Bards?

hamishspence
2019-07-07, 09:26 AM
The Loveable Rogue archetype has a long history though - it isn't just Lankhmar:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LovableRogue

For that matter, most of the Conan stories are far more "Conan the Thief/Pirate/etc" than "Conan the Barbarian"

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-07, 09:30 AM
The Loveable Rogue archetype has a long history though - it isn't just Lankhmar:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LovableRogue

Sure but a heroic, agile, go intro dungeons, find traps and go to adventures to fight monsters is not an iconic fantasy look.

Just because they are both called Rouges doesn't mean it's the D&D rouge.

hamishspence
2019-07-07, 09:33 AM
Sneaky adventurers, though, have a long history in fiction.

Usually, in fantasy, the "party rogue" tends to be the most morally ambiguous member, but there's lots of novels that have a party rogue or two - especially the David Eddings ones.


Sure but a heroic, agile, go intro dungeons, find traps and go to adventures to fight monsters is not an iconic fantasy look.
Dungeon delving isn't exactly iconic fantasy. But the characters who dungeon delve, are drawn from older archetypes.

Kyutaru
2019-07-07, 09:40 AM
There are Marvel and DC characters that are warlocks too.

Most are villains because the term warlock is thought to be negatively connotative. But then they even have the dude named Adam Warlock.

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-07, 10:03 AM
Sneaky adventurers, though, have a long history in fiction.

"The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, R. E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and A. Merritt."
Gary Gygax, Writing in Appendix N, AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (1979), p. 224

It's quite clear that D&D is the mash up of Gary Gygax favorite fantasy charatcers. He took the Barbarian from Howard, the wizard from Jack Vance, the warrior from Lyon Sprague de Camp, the Ranger from J. R. R. Tolkien and the rougue from Fritz Leiber! That's like super clear.

D&D doesn't borrow from iconic fnatasy archetypes, D&D borrow from stuff it's creator loved. Or are you guys going to say that hobbits Halflings are also an iconic fantasy race present in myth and legend all over the world?

No, it's simply a translation of race he really liked, same with the rogue it's not meant to represent all forms of swashbuckling lovable bastards but a very specific character.

hamishspence
2019-07-07, 10:15 AM
If the D&D rogue is not an "iconic fantasy archetype" then what is? - and why is the rogue specifically disqualified?

It's also worth remembering that a lot of time has passed since Gygax started work on D&D.

Even if "rogues" weren't iconic then, a case could be made that over time, they have become so, by drawing on more sources than just Lieber.

S@tanicoaldo
2019-07-07, 10:26 AM
If the D&D rogue is not an "iconic fantasy archetype" then what is? - and why is the rogue specifically disqualified?

It's also worth remembering that a lot of time has passed since Gygax started work on D&D.

Even if "rogues" weren't iconic then, a case could be made that over time, they have become so, by drawing on more sources than just Lieber.

I'm talking about the iconic D&D rogue, the stuff it does and how it looks like. (https://www.google.com/search?q=D%26D+rogue&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8oMPhjqPjAhUCA9QKHUSnDlwQ_AUIECgB) That stuff was borrowed straight from Lieber.

LordEntrails
2019-07-07, 10:54 AM
Perhaps the last thing I will add to this thread is;

I think before much more value can be added, people would need to define and agree upon a common set of definitions. Such as what is a warlock, a rogue, etc? Because it seems pretty obvious everyone has a very different definition/connotation for each.

hamishspence
2019-07-07, 10:59 AM
I think that, whatever Gygax originally intended the Rogue/Thief to be, modern D&D defines it somewhat more broadly.

Changing the name from Thief to Rogue is just one symptom of that.

Keltest
2019-07-07, 08:37 PM
The Archetype of the guile hero who uses their wits to solve problems rather than raw force has existed well before Gygax was even born. Gygax may have been responsible for the attachment of lockpicking and pickpocketing to their skillset, but the "clever warrior" is not a remotely new thing.

Aergentum
2019-07-08, 03:12 AM
Not too sure about this, but I would throw "Witchblade" heroines in too since they have a pact with the blade and it would totally fit in as a "Pact of the Blade" Warlock.

Lord Raziere
2019-07-08, 03:44 AM
Yeah guile hero is as old as Odysseus. at the least.

while Iconic warlocks is as old as Faust at least, but it would not surprise me if making bargains with mystical entities is older than that- the entire point of any religion with a deity figure is a transaction if not in a monetary sense, and folklore is full of people interacting with supernatural creatures as people that can be talked to and do things for them.

any magical girl can be considered a warlock- a magical cat or other cute familiar comes and gives them magical power, sometimes its a deal, sometimes its them insisting its their destiny or whatever, and they often fire stuff at people.

Edward Elric can be considered an example of a Warlock, as he makes a deal with Truth for his power.

John Constantine is the guy who predates Dresden by about 12 years.

from one perspective, a paladin or cleric are just warlocks with better PR, shamans are just warlocks whose deals sealed with kills from the hunt rather than contracts, technically warlock is just the male version of a witch, so really all witches are examples of warlock since the classic folklore is them dealing with the devil, so all witches? warlocks.

RedMage125
2019-07-08, 06:52 AM
I second Adam of Eternia as a Hexblade Warlock.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned Sailor Moon and her entourage. Their "pact" is supposed to be a tie with their respective planets, right? 4e had "Star Pact" locks, which could either be flavored as GOO-locks (beings from the darkness between the stars), or drawing power from the stars themselves. In 5e, Celestial lock seems to fit pretty well.


Lina inverse is somewhat of a Warlock. Black magic in Slayers is drawn from demons, but rather than gathering magic from a patron that encompasses all black magical spells like drawing water from a specific well, different spells are instead taken from individual demons who each need to be tapped individually for different spells. Which means black magic can be utterly ineffective against demons especially when they themselves are the root of the spell's power, and that spells can fade from the world if the demon that spawns it is destroyed.



Lina may drawn some of her powers from demon lords and the lower planes but she's clearly the one one doing the magic, there is no pact, deal or consent involved. She's a wizard true and true.

Lina Inverse is totally a warlock. S@tanicolado, you even said it yourself a paragraph later:


That's a very important aspect of being an warlock, you may borrow the powers of some other creature but YOU are the one casting all the spells even if they are limited in scope.
Warlocks make the pact to access the power. What they do with it is up to them. They're not praying for it, they don't owe their patron homage or anything. It's theirs now.



Great pick! Perhaps even the Lich king himself is a Hexblade warlock who got enough power to become a Lich. Warlcoks can become Liches rigth?
Arthas would be a Lockadin. Devotion Paladin, changed to Oathbreaker Paladin, then multiclass into Hexblade with Frostmourne.


Raziel from Soul Raver has a Great Old One patron.

Only if you believe the Elder God when he takes credit for resurrecting Raziel. Raziel questions this in SR2 "were you just there when it happened?". And if you remember, in SR1, if a vampire's body is killed, but not fully destroyed, and it's soul is not consumed, it becomes a soul-draining wraith. And they could return to their bodies with new soul-draining powers if given the chance (such as when you find an impaled vampire, and remove the spear).

Makes me inclined to believe the EG did not actually resurrect Raziel.


Come to think of it, the 'spells' in Soul Reaver has been so sparse, that casting him as a short-rest recharging warlock makes so much sense.

Though making him a hexblade would also make sense, as his weird powers sort of come from... him. It's a lot of weird to get into if readers don't already know.

That actually makes a lot more sense. There's a lot of paradox and time-travel wonkiness involved, but it works.

Great Dragon
2019-07-08, 07:09 AM
- Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden (Fallen Angel Lasciel, then Queen Mab, and arguably Demonreach Genius Loci

I love this Author!!


IiRC
Harry started as a Wizard Apprentice with Justin, then made a Deal with Leandresidhe for powerup, finished Wizard training with Ebeneezer McCoy, then (later) Mab took over Lea's contract, then he got Lasciel's coin and Hellfire, then got Soulfire from Uriel, Accepted Winter Knight from Mab, then made an "understanding" with Demonreach and became the Warden of the Island prison.

I'm (not)patiently waiting for Peace Talks….

Another Series by Mr Butcher, that might apply:
Codex of Alera: where the people are "bonded" to Elemental based spirits.

Kitten Champion
2019-07-08, 08:23 AM
Lina Inverse is totally a warlock. S@tanicolado, you even said it yourself a paragraph later:

Warlocks make the pact to access the power. What they do with it is up to them. They're not praying for it, they don't owe their patron homage or anything. It's theirs now.

To quote the wiki


Magic in the Slayers world is somewhat different from the magic systems of other fantasy worlds. Although spell effects are achieved by manipulating an energy known as mana, a common methodology in fantasy settings, in this world, spellcasters with no innate magic ability cannot access and control mana directly. Instead, casting a spell requires calling upon another entity with the ability to use such energies and "asking" it to lend some of its might. This does not need to be a specific creature; in many cases, a spiritual or natural force is a sufficient medium. Because of the unusual way of spellcasting in this world, spell incantations are more like invocations rather than unintelligible phrases, making simpler magic accessible to almost everyone who can memorize a few lines of text and learn some simple mental exercises.


Magicians in Slayers are Warlocks and Sorcerers, fundamentally. There are no Wizards.

This is why the incantation for the most famous spell in the series is this...



One who is darker than twilight
One who is redder than flowing blood
Buried in the flow of time
In thy great name,
I hereby pledge myself to darkness
Those who stand before us in our way
All those who have become fools
Merge thy power and mine
To grant destruction equally to all!!
DRAGON SLAVE!

RedMage125
2019-07-08, 10:42 AM
To quote the wiki



Magicians in Slayers are Warlocks and Sorcerers, fundamentally. There are no Wizards.

This is why the incantation for the most famous spell in the series is this...

...yes, I said Lina was a warlock.

Obviously, there isn't going to be a perfect match for the lore. There is no class that perfectly imitates this. Even if you were playing BESM, you'd be using mechanics that did not perfectly match the lore.

MrStabby
2019-07-08, 11:29 AM
Darth Vader. Made a pact with the emperor to save his love. Whilst the power the emperor provided was essentially just knowledge, the same was true of Dr Faustus so I don't see that as contradictory.

Long time since checking... but I think a lot of the enemies in the Diabolo franchise gained their powers from being corrupted by the prime evils, although as swarms as mobs rather than well defined characters.

Laevatein
2019-07-08, 05:04 PM
The ones that immediately spring to mind are the magical girls from "Puella Magi Madoka Magica" - Contract with an alien being with a mysterious agenda, limited powers that include blasting things or hitting them with weapons...

In fact, I'm currently playing a "magical girl" warlock in Adventurers League.

Mordaedil
2019-07-09, 01:14 AM
...yes, I said Lina was a warlock.

Obviously, there isn't going to be a perfect match for the lore. There is no class that perfectly imitates this. Even if you were playing BESM, you'd be using mechanics that did not perfectly match the lore.
Slayers actually has its own d20 rulebook which is apparently really fun.

It overrides most of the base D&D stuff though and heavily emphasises multiclassing.

Knaight
2019-07-10, 02:07 AM
I'm talking about the iconic D&D rogue, the stuff it does and how it looks like. (https://www.google.com/search?q=D%26D+rogue&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8oMPhjqPjAhUCA9QKHUSnDlwQ_AUIECgB) That stuff was borrowed straight from Lieber.

The Grey Mouser informs a lot of the specifics of the standard D&D aesthetic, sure - though it's not just the Grey Mouser (there's more than a little Cugel in there, to go back to Vance). The thing is that while D&D might be pulling from more proximate sources both the Grey Mouser and Cugel are pulling from a long tradition of guile heroes, which inadvertently makes it in.

I still stand by this mostly being a matter of breadth. "Rogue" is a broad class that fits a broad concept, "Warlock" is a small facet, one of many representations of spellcasters which are themselves generally other facets. What they're all facets of is the general idea of the fantasy magician, and that archetype is truly ancient. It's much the way that the Fighter, by being aggressively generic, fits so many options.

Cikomyr
2019-07-10, 05:05 AM
Arthas when he picked Frostmourn?

Great Dragon
2019-07-10, 06:31 AM
I can't help but wonder:
King Arthur Multiclassing
Devotion Paladin with
Warlock Hexblade/Blade?

More likely:
Warlock Celestial/Blade.

LeFey could have been
Necromancer Wizard/Archfey Warlock (Tome)

Anublet90
2019-07-11, 04:32 PM
I'm sure I'll be repeating what others have said, so sorry about that.
____

Well, first one that comes to mind is Archer from 'Fate/Stay Night', specifically the future version of Shirou.
Basically, he wanted to be a "Hero of Justice" and upon his death he made a contract with some super-entity to that end. Unfortunately it meant he will indefinitely be sent through time all around history assassinating bad people, something he's not all that pleased about. It's an interesting example because what he wanted wasn't power but an opportunity, which he did get it in exchange for seemingly eternal servitude.

The villain in 'Princess and the Frog' is definitely a Warlock, Charisma and all. I mean look at this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZAY-78zhmw)! Other Disney examples IMO include Cinderella (Fey Pact) and Meg from Hercules. I can't remember what her deal was about, but she ended up bound to Hades.

In 'Bayonetta' there are organizations of Warlocks. In D&D terms the female Witches deal with fiends for power while the male Sages muck about with Celestials.

'Dragon Age' has a bunch, but Anders and Merrill in particular spring to mind. The former made a rather benign arrangement with a spirit who he was friends with but suffered some hefty unforeseen consequences, while the latter naively made a deal for forbidden knowledge with a sealed demon in order to protect her tribe.

'Elder Scrolls' has the Daedric Princes, basically demigods that make very Faustian bargains with almost anyone who can find their shrines, and occasionally just people who are in need or seem like they would be fun to mess with. They've made many people what D&D would consider Warlocks.

Kratos from 'God of War' is pretty much a Barbarian who dipped into Pact of the Blade Warlock, but in an interesting twist his patrons keep shifting from game to game.

'Shadow Hearts: Covenant' (as the name suggests) is filled with Warlocks, some of them more successful than others.

'Warcraft' series has a bunch of course, some of the more prominent ones are Kil'jaeden, Archimonde and Kel'thuzad. The first two bargained with the leader of a seemingly unstoppable extra-dimensional army of demons, while the latter was slowly enticed by the Lich King until he got fed up with his local mageocracy, went north, signed the contract, and founded the Cult of the Damned.

A bunch of these in 'Naruto', specifically deals with various animal yokai societies. Interestingly, these tend to not be with a single entity but more of a comprehensive alliance with their entire people, letting you summon them into battle, go to them for training, to garner wisdom from their elders, and so on. This is actually a really cool spin on Fey Pact, come to think of it.

Ciel in 'Black Butler' was wronged really, really badly and sold his soul in exchange for the devil helping him get his vengeance.

The Corvos and Liliana are perfect examples too, by the way. In Magic a lot of the Demon units also have you pay a price to either summon them or keep them on the field, so you are making the deal with the devil.
____

And who knows how many others.

Barastur
2019-07-11, 07:15 PM
King arthur is a Warlock of the archfey with a pact of the balde for sure.

In most versions of the story the sword in the stone is not Excalibur, the magical sword is given to him by the lady of the lake.

A powerful Fey, it's even a common art theme. (https://www.google.com/search?q=King+arthur+and+the+lady+of+the+lake&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcx4-uiK7jAhVYHbkGHQgKAA0Q_AUIECgB)

Black mage from 8-Bit theater totally qualifies in mood:
http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/040710.png

With the whole making bargains with evil demons and gods in exchange for power vibe.

He may also fit mechanically as a Warlock who did not get eldritch blast as a cantrip since his spell slots are ****. Few elemental spells and a huge force arcane blast that he can only use once a day.

Kane0
2019-07-11, 07:22 PM
The missus won't stop going on about Magnus Bane, does that count?

GrayDeath
2019-07-12, 03:42 AM
Really weird noone posted this guy yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrRlBqfLvU0


^^

Kurald Galain
2019-07-12, 04:54 AM
If the D&D rogue is not an "iconic fantasy archetype" then what is? - and why is the rogue specifically disqualified?

Of course the rogue is an iconic fantasy archetype. The eponymous Hobbit is explicitly recruited as a thief, and don't tell me that wasn't a big influence on D&D.

Feist's Jimmy the Hand is clearly a rogue, as arguably is Roo Avery. Lackey's Skif is explicitly called a thief. Eddings, as already mentioned, has rogues. Ali Baba, from mythology, is pretty clearly a rogue. How on earth is that not iconic? :smallcool:

Great Dragon
2019-07-12, 05:29 AM
Really weird noone posted this guy yet: Warlock the Movie (1989)

Blocked in some countries.

I like having fun debates!!
See, Arthur can go with any of the above Warlocks.

Is the Lady of the Lake
a Celestial? Or An Archfey?
Or Not a Patron at all?

With most of Arthur's actual "Magical Power" coming from the Sword/s he wields, this could easily make him (in D&D) a Hexblade, regardless of what The Lady of the Lake is.

Arthur wouldn't have Eldritch Blast, and would most likely be choosing Utility spells and Invocations. He would have the Hex spell, and use Hexblade's Curse perhaps with the Eldritch Smite Invocation, most of the time.
****
And, yes Arthur had a Sword before Excalibur
Caliburn (https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/20/are-excalibur-and-caliburn-different-swords)

A lot of people say these two are the same sword.

There are those that say that Caliburn was a magical Sword designed for War, and the Lady of the Lake exchanged it for Excalibur: the Sword of Unity.

Perhaps before that he had Clarent (http://theswordlibrary.blogspot.com/2014/02/clarent.html?m=1)?
The actual Sword in the Stone.

Oh, and Arthur was supposed to be well into his 20s when he did that, not some 8-12 y/o kid.

Thanks to Disney, this sword is also confused with Excalibur.

Now, it is debatable whether or not Clarent had any magic beyond the ability to confirm Arthur as King of All England, or even if Arthur wielded it at all in combat.

Max_Killjoy
2019-07-12, 09:24 AM
Blocked in some countries.

I like having fun debates!!
See, Arthur can go with any of the above Warlocks.

Is the Lady of the Lake
a Celestial? Or An Archfey?
Or Not a Patron at all?

With most of Arthur's actual "Magical Power" coming from the Sword/s he wields, this could easily make him (in D&D) a Hexblade, regardless of what The Lady of the Lake is.

Arthur wouldn't have Eldritch Blast, and would most likely be choosing Utility spells and Invocations. He would have the Hex spell, and use Hexblade's Curse perhaps with the Eldritch Smite Invocation, most of the time.
****
And, yes Arthur had a Sword before Excalibur
Caliburn (https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/20/are-excalibur-and-caliburn-different-swords)

A lot of people say these two are the same sword.

There are those that say that Caliburn was a magical Sword designed for War, and the Lady of the Lake exchanged it for Excalibur: the Sword of Unity.

Perhaps before that he had Clarent (http://theswordlibrary.blogspot.com/2014/02/clarent.html?m=1)?
The actual Sword in the Stone.

Oh, and Arthur was supposed to be well into his 20s when he did that, not some 8-12 y/o kid.

Thanks to Disney, this sword is also confused with Excalibur.

Now, it is debatable whether or not Clarent had any magic beyond the ability to confirm Arthur as King of All England, or even if Arthur wielded it at all in combat.

And on top of all that, not all the stories feature both the stone and the lake at all.

And Excalibur and Caliburn could just be cognates and refer to the same exact sword.

Great Dragon
2019-07-12, 09:51 AM
And on top of all that, not all the stories feature both the stone and the lake at all.

And Excalibur and Caliburn could just be cognates and refer to the same exact sword.

Yeah, that's kinda what happens when two Nations are competing/stealing from each other.

Excalibur is supposedly a French word.
(Whose original meaning has mostly been lost)

In this case: England vs France.

If you want lots of possible Region-based Plots and shinagines for your games (and aren't easily bored by long winded Historians) read over the 100 year War/s and the War of the Roses.

Barastur
2019-07-12, 10:21 AM
Now, it is debatable whether or not Clarent had any magic beyond the ability to confirm Arthur as King of All England, or even if Arthur wielded it at all in combat.

In most stories he was attacked by the other contenders for the throne and the sword of the stone was able to produce (or reflect the sun light) a powerful light blast that blinded his foes.

So yeah the Sword of the Stone is for sure magical, a sword with a light affect maybe?

DavidSh
2019-07-12, 03:26 PM
Arthurian legend, having been compiled over a period of centuries, isn't particularly consistent. As I see it, Arthur's sword is Excalibur, and this probably pre-dates any story of how he got it. Mallory uses this same name for both the sword from the stone and the sword from the lake. I'd bet Arthur names all his swords "Excalibur", or the equivalent in Old Welsh, just like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser's swords are Greywand and Scalpel, no matter how recently replaced. Or, I would if the story of Arthur's death didn't strongly imply that he was still using the sword from the lake at that point.


And, of course, Uncle Arthur is a warlock, just not under D&D rules.

Keltest
2019-07-12, 03:48 PM
Arthurian legend, having been compiled over a period of centuries, isn't particularly consistent. As I see it, Arthur's sword is Excalibur, and this probably pre-dates any story of how he got it. Mallory uses this same name for both the sword from the stone and the sword from the lake. I'd bet Arthur names all his swords "Excalibur", or the equivalent in Old Welsh, just like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser's swords are Greywand and Scalpel, no matter how recently replaced. Or, I would if the story of Arthur's death didn't strongly imply that he was still using the sword from the lake at that point.


And, of course, Uncle Arthur is a warlock, just not under D&D rules.

Like any Proper Warrior, Arthur undoubtedly carried about 10 different swords with him whenever he went adventuring, and simply chose not to keep track of the encumbrance.

Max_Killjoy
2019-07-12, 04:31 PM
Like any Proper Warrior, Arthur undoubtedly carried about 10 different swords with him whenever he went adventuring, and simply chose not to keep track of the encumbrance.

"Encumbrance doesn't exist if you ignore it."

Great Dragon
2019-07-12, 05:52 PM
"Encumbrance doesn't exist if you ignore it."

LoL

I can't resist:
This statement reminds me of
Nodwick (http://comic.nodwick.com/?comic=2001-01-01)
Grognards might recognize him from old Dragon Magazines.
I support people like this (and OotS) as much as possible.

Kyutaru
2019-07-12, 06:25 PM
LoL

I can't resist:
This statement reminds me of
Nodwick (http://comic.nodwick.com/?comic=2001-01-01)
Grognards might recognize him from old Dragon Magazines.
I support people like this (and OotS) as much as possible.

Reminds me of Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater. It's not cheating the system if you don't get called out for it.

RedMage125
2019-07-12, 07:56 PM
Reminds me of Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater. It's not cheating the system if you don't get called out for it.

That's where my forum handle comes from! I thought he was hilarious.

*changes his character sheet to take levels in beastmaster, because there are more skills than healer, and Black Mage is basically a mammal, right?*

Malphegor
2019-07-16, 09:18 AM
Great pick! Perhaps even the Lich king himself is a Hexblade warlock who got enough power to become a Lich. Warlcoks can become Liches rigth?
.


Depends on edition. Some let theoretically anyone become a lich. All you gotta do in 3.5 for example is either be one of the two or three classes that automatically become a lich or a lich variant... Or just get someone to help you become a lich.

So the only prerequsite really to become a lich is the phylactery, which needs Craft Wondrous Items, be able to cast spells, and have a caster level of 11 or higher. You don't even need specific spells!

So there's probably a Dragonwrought Kobold somewhere who managed to become a lich by level 10 despite only knowing cantrips and the spells that do nothing much of importance like creating clothes or conjuring up blocks of wood, then used their remaining 6 levels to be, I don't know, be a Evil class of some sort. Bard maybe.

The only caveat that seems difficult there is having a caster level of 11. But between ioun stones, a ring of arcane power, a magic tattoo, there's probably a way to reach that with items.

Hmm. 3 level Wizard dip (for craft wondrous item). All other levels are Fighter or Commoner or whatever. Probably possible to become a lich through sheer force of wealth to buy the items to meet the prerequisites.

Lord Torath
2019-07-16, 09:51 AM
There was a TV show a decade or so back about a kid whose parents sold his soul to the Devil. The Devil put him to work capturing escaped souls and always gave him a magic doohickey to catch the thing. Can't remember what it was called, but I think Ray Wise (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936403/) played the Devil.

Here it is: It was called Reaper (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0955322/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_114).

I think Sam could be considered a Warlock

Willie the Duck
2019-07-16, 10:56 AM
Anya from Buffy is coded as 'a demon,' but she was a human who was invested with demonic power by a patron (making the distinction in name only). The same logic worked with humans-turned-demons in the Charmed universe (where the sisters might also qualify as Warlocks).

Honestly, the initial premise (the one the OP is looking for counterexamples to) is absurd! The only real question is where to shove things that might fit multiple categories, which is hardly unique to warlocks (When a guile hero moves from fighter to rogue, as an example). That honestly shows the artificiality of the class system as a whole more than being a reasonable rebuke to the existence of a specific class outside the game. Same with the idea of a rogue not being a fantasy trope because of the relative rarity of dungeon-delving trapfinders outside of D&D -- yes, that specific activity is overrepresented in D&D compared to elsewhere, and thus of course a class built to that exception would slightly deviate from the larger norm.

LibraryOgre
2019-07-16, 12:37 PM
Anya from Buffy is coded as 'a demon,' but she was a human who was invested with demonic power by a patron (making the distinction in name only). The same logic worked with humans-turned-demons in the Charmed universe (where the sisters might also qualify as Warlocks).
.

Really, it wouldn't be too far off to class the Slayer as a Warlock, either, given that Her power came from being infused with a demon, generations ago.

In a way, I think a gishy variant of the 5e Warlock, which focused more on permanent buffs via invocations, would be an interesting option.

Max_Killjoy
2019-07-16, 01:12 PM
There was a TV show a decade or so back about a kid whose parents sold his soul to the Devil. The Devil put him to work capturing escaped souls and always gave him a magic doohickey to catch the thing. Can't remember what it was called, but I think Ray Wise (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936403/) played the Devil.

Here it is: It was called Reaper (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0955322/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_114).

I think Sam could be considered a Warlock

Older show about a character tracking down escaped condemned souls -- Brimstone.

Spore
2019-07-17, 12:27 AM
So there's probably a Dragonwrought Kobold somewhere who managed to become a lich by level 10 despite only knowing cantrips and the spells that do nothing much of importance like creating clothes or conjuring up blocks of wood, then used their remaining 6 levels to be, I don't know, be a Evil class of some sort. Bard maybe.

Did....did you just write my campaign's BBEG? When you remember basically any high powered being can be a warlock patron, why shouldn't a Kobold bard lich give his underling a fraction of his ludicrous power. And an underling that uses this power far more effectively than the BBEG.

Gotta spend a lot of time building up this vastly powerful draco-lich in narrative, warning people of him and his undead minions with every other step, only for him to be a (slightly evil) joke and his vizier being not the actual villain but far more competent.


The same logic worked with humans-turned-demons in the Charmed universe (where the sisters might also qualify as Warlocks).

I had to watch this as a kid since my mom was into the show. It was fun having something not being defined by "monster of the week" though it certainly did do that quite frequently still. But I cannot recall what gave the sister their powers? Heritage? Their book? Or just knowledge? Or does it differentiate?

I distinctly recall the oldest being somewhat knowledgable, and the youngest basically just spamming her default power (cantrip/invocation).

Zetakya
2019-07-17, 07:21 AM
Pokémon trainers are Pact of the Chain Warlocks in a plane/setting where elemental creatures freely roam the landscape.

Keltest
2019-07-17, 09:09 AM
Pokémon trainers are Pact of the Chain Warlocks in a plane/setting where elemental creatures freely roam the landscape.

Trainers seem more like rangers or druids than warlocks to me. Theyre just directing other forces, they don't actually gain any personal power or ability. If we define a warlock as "anybody or anything that can potentially direct an ability they don't have themselves" then just about everybody is a warlock, since most people have friends that are good at things they themselves are not.

Willie the Duck
2019-07-17, 09:34 AM
I had to watch this as a kid since my mom was into the show. It was fun having something not being defined by "monster of the week" though it certainly did do that quite frequently still. But I cannot recall what gave the sister their powers? Heritage? Their book? Or just knowledge? Or does it differentiate?

I distinctly recall the oldest being somewhat knowledgable, and the youngest basically just spamming her default power (cantrip/invocation).

I don't recall exactly what 'gave' them their power. They had 'the book of three,' and they had innate special powers, as well as spells and potions that they researched (in the book and elsewhere). To me they read as wizards, perhaps with a touch of 'destined to be.' This just showcases that non-D&D fiction doesn't have to draw the same lines and make the same distinctions important as D&D.

GrayDeath
2019-07-17, 12:50 PM
As someone who, once upon a time, watched the series (yeah, for the eye candy, mostly, sue me, as a late teen/Early Twen I had a crush for ALyssa Milano ^^), the 3 sisters where clearly to pretty and to stupid to be Wizards.

If one HAD to define them as D&D I think a kind of "studied Patronage Caster" would be it. They had to few original/them alone pwoers for warlocks or sorcerers, but well.....it was a show (that they sadly are remaking ahw ell...)

Malphegor
2019-07-18, 06:00 AM
Trainers seem more like rangers or druids than warlocks to me. Theyre just directing other forces, they don't actually gain any personal power or ability. If we define a warlock as "anybody or anything that can potentially direct an ability they don't have themselves" then just about everybody is a warlock, since most people have friends that are good at things they themselves are not.

I'm pretty sure in the anime they are some weird Marshal/Warlock thing where they inspire their Pokemon to do stuff, but also can develop an Aura and magical powers of their own through some mystic pact at higher levels.

... actually, that would synergise pretty well. Charisma based leader of lesser beings who becomes a charisma based caster. Then you just need a capture mechanism for...

... Oh god. I need to figure out how to build a Pokeball in 3.5. I need to test this out. (some kind of advanced version of Tanglefoot bags? Obviously we're going to need high animal handling through the roof in order to tame and control these creatures once immobilised... Druid levels might be needed... arcane hierophant warlock/druid maybe? I need to math this out)

Great Dragon
2019-07-18, 06:49 AM
@Malphegor:
The closest I ever got to the Pokemon Idea (3x) was wooden balls that were enchanted with a Summon Animal/Monster X spell (which set the CR/HD limit) where completion of the Spell was successfully capturing a Animal/Monstrosity (it gets a Willpower/Wisdom Save vs the Caster's DC) which was then the only thing that could be Summoned by that Ball.

Any Class can use a Ball, but (Shepard) Druids, (Beastmaster) Rangers, and (Nature) Clerics could use Class Features (including spells) on their Animal/s, at no real Cost.
(Swift Action for 3x, and Bonus Action for 5e)

In 5e, the Ball would not need Attunement, with up to six Balls being immediately available. Note: For game purposes, a Balled Animal counted as a Familiar or Companion.
PCs could not have both.


3x = Caster Level times Spell Level times (at least) 750 gp. 1/25th total value in Exp cost, and taking 1 day per 1,000 gp value to make.

5e cost would be based on Rarity value, and take one week per 1,000 gp? (I'll look it up later, to make sure)

snowblizz
2019-07-18, 05:54 PM
Did....did you just write my campaign's BBEG? When you remember basically any high powered being can be a warlock patron, why shouldn't a Kobold bard lich give his underling a fraction of his ludicrous power. And an underling that uses this power far more effectively than the BBEG.

Gotta spend a lot of time building up this vastly powerful draco-lich in narrative, warning people of him and his undead minions with every other step, only for him to be a (slightly evil) joke and his vizier being not the actual villain but far more competent.



I had to watch this as a kid since my mom was into the show. It was fun having something not being defined by "monster of the week" though it certainly did do that quite frequently still. But I cannot recall what gave the sister their powers? Heritage? Their book? Or just knowledge? Or does it differentiate?

I distinctly recall the oldest being somewhat knowledgable, and the youngest basically just spamming her default power (cantrip/invocation).


I don't recall exactly what 'gave' them their power. They had 'the book of three,' and they had innate special powers, as well as spells and potions that they researched (in the book and elsewhere). To me they read as wizards, perhaps with a touch of 'destined to be.' This just showcases that non-D&D fiction doesn't have to draw the same lines and make the same distinctions important as D&D.

If anyone cares, the Charmed sister had bloodline power. Or something. Not anyone could have picked up the book to become witches. It needed ot be these 3 sisters, and the book. For one of the later seasons they had to invent a half-sister as one of the actresses quit the show And they were "witches". Male witches were I believe warlocks, though I think there was something else to it too. It's quite possible women got innate power if they fulfilled some bloodline rules and men could only get similar with devil deals. I don't remember exactly and don't care enough to read up. It had a strong "women are (usually) good, men are as a rule evil vibe to it. I'm almost certain there was an ongoing "warlocks trying to trick the witches to abuse their power" thing going on.

And it was pretty heavily monster of the week for season 1 and then expanded on storylines.

iTreeby
2019-07-18, 11:58 PM
Can't believe I got through this whole thread without seeing my favorite Warlock, the "wizard" Howl from the movie Howl's Moving Castle (and book of the same name).

Haldir
2019-07-19, 12:01 AM
If anyone cares, the Charmed sister had bloodline power. Or something. Not anyone could have picked up the book to become witches. It needed ot be these 3 sisters, and the book. For one of the later seasons they had to invent a half-sister as one of the actresses quit the show And they were "witches". Male witches were I believe warlocks, though I think there was something else to it too. It's quite possible women got innate power if they fulfilled some bloodline rules and men could only get similar with devil deals. I don't remember exactly and don't care enough to read up. It had a strong "women are (usually) good, men are as a rule evil vibe to it. I'm almost certain there was an ongoing "warlocks trying to trick the witches to abuse their power" thing going on.

And it was pretty heavily monster of the week for season 1 and then expanded on storylines.

My wife is having me watch the series as we speak, and the girls are either sorceries or warlocks depending on the episode.

Their powers are innate from their blood, but occasionally the "Elders" give them upgrades. So maybe just sorceror with a bloodline specifically able to be modified by this group of patrons?

Great Dragon
2019-07-25, 01:36 PM
How about Hellboy?

He seems very much the
Eldritch Knight/Fiend Warlock.
Without Eldritch Blast.

Sure, he doesn't seem to use much magic in the movie, but in D&D he could cut loose a bit more.

Kitten Champion
2019-07-25, 06:31 PM
I think Hellboy is powered by Hellboy though.

He's like a cambion Fighter that can occasionally become an archfiend himself if the stars align.

Perch
2019-07-26, 01:42 PM
In my games I like to use Pious from Eternal Darkness as a base for Warlock-Patron relationship.

He is a powerful Undead Lich who is kept alive by his patron power and serve as their minion trying to open a gate to bring them to the material plane.

He is even outright called a warlock in the game and the cutscenes are very fun(Best voice acting in a video game IMO). I like to think of Warlocks as having a closer more person deal with their deities compared with clerics who just pray and get their powers.

Here is an exemple:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=225&v=0UesYtEg6Qc

(This video shows three scenes one for each Patron, the first one is the "Devour everything abomination" type, the second is a "Wise, malevolent wizardly deity" type and the last one is the "Chaotic, mad with split personality capable of seeing the future Goddess" the different flavors of eldritch gods and their personalities in the cuteness are my favorite part of the game).

Malphegor
2019-07-26, 01:47 PM
weird thought- are most magical girls warlocks? I'm thinking of Sailor Moon- they draw power from the metaphysical space of the celestial object that they embody. Sort of a cosmic object as a patron for warlock powers.

I think?

I admit, I am lost trying to understand the lore of that show, but they seem like warlocks to me, albeit ones that have magical wands as foci?

Great Dragon
2019-07-26, 05:28 PM
@Malphegor
Depends on the magic girl.

Glamer Bards and a few Sorcerer types could work as well as some Warlocks.

Kitten Champion
2019-07-26, 06:31 PM
I don't think there is a detailed canon explanation for Sailor Moon's magic system really. Though they do have powers/elements related to their individual heavenly bodies, what that actually means in the metaphysics of the universe I've no idea.

The Sailor Senshi are closer to Exalted than D&D. As the heroes are reincarnations of divine magical knights/princesses from a long-dead Golden Age of extreme longevity, magitech, and non-specific superpowers.

Blackhawk748
2019-07-26, 07:04 PM
I think Spawn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spawn_(comics)) would qualify.

Think? Spawn is textbook Warlock, he just adds being returned from Hell to the list. He shoots lasers, flies, has tentacle like things that grapple people he doesn't like (the chains), an GTFO button (his is a Rez but w/e).

Ya, a perfect Warlock, hes just the gishy kind.

The Elric brothers probably qualify, it's just the everyone else is doing magic too so their bonus seems less impressive.

RedMage125
2019-07-29, 12:24 AM
Already beat you to the Sailor Moon as an example. :p

They're certainly all warlocks (and thank you for the word senshi). They all get their power from ties to their planet, don't they? I would say Moom herself is Celestial Pact.

Friv
2019-07-30, 10:35 AM
Already beat you to the Sailor Moon as an example. :p

They're certainly all warlocks (and thank you for the word senshi). They all get their power from ties to their planet, don't they? I would say Moom herself is Celestial Pact.

Oh, yeah, she's definitely Celestial. Early Sailor Moon as a Level 3 Celestial warlock has got:

Cantrips: Friends, True Strike (to power up her tiara attack), Light, Sacred Flame
Spells:
Level 1: Guiding Bolt (Tiara), Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat
Level 2: Lesser Restoration (fortunately, cursed humans who are near-death can be restored to humanity with a lesser restoration)
Invocations: Beguiling Influence (proficient in Deception and Persuasion despite being painfully blunt), Mask of Many Faces (to become Sailor Moon or use her Disguise Pen)
Pact of the Chain: Luna is her familiar (prior to Level 3, Luna is just an NPC who yells at her a lot.)
Healing Light: Sailor Moon can heal the other Senshi.

Sam113097
2019-08-02, 04:40 PM
Has Ghost Rider been mentioned yet? Maybe with a few levels of Vengeance Paladin

NNescio
2019-08-03, 03:59 AM
The ones that immediately spring to mind are the magical girls from "Puella Magi Madoka Magica" - Contract with an alien being with a mysterious agenda, limited powers that include blasting things or hitting them with weapons...

In fact, I'm currently playing a "magical girl" warlock in Adventurers League.

Heck, one can make an argument that even the traditional magical-sparkly-friendship-is-magic kind are also Warlocks.

Just Archfey patron (and the occasional Celestial) instead of GOO (or Fiend or Hex or Undying).

It's almost like a genre convention that they get their powers via some kind of personal relationship with a being of greater power, i.e. a patron. And they usually get a blasting power and a summon-a-weapon power too, as part of the package.

The few exceptions I can think of involve magitek magical girls (e.g. Nanoha), who are more like Artificers or Wizards, or possibly just commoners with one-too-many magical items.

EndlessKng
2019-08-09, 03:43 PM
The missus won't stop going on about Magnus Bane, does that count?

I'd argue not in general. The mages in Shadowhunters are called warlocks, but they are actually more like sorcerers - born with their power due to a parent (usually father) being a demon. They can make deals though, and some may be akin to a warlock, so she may be more correct in Magnus' case than in the general - he is especially unusual. (And on writing, I do remember a spoiler from the last book of the first series that could make him more of a warlock in D&D terms).

That said, an argument COULD be made for Shadowhunters themselves as Celestial Warlocks, at least as a multiclass. They have a set of specific runes they can brand themselves with, and in some cases others. Their power also comes from deals made with an archangel in the past - it is passed down, akin to a divine soul sorcerer, but they also can uplift others, or in rare cases strip someone of their marks and exile them. Their magic is a bit broader than a Warlocks, and they also bear resemblance to paladins on the whole, but I wouldn't raise my eye so high if a player brought a blade pacter based on Jace (well... not for class choice anyways...)

Friv
2019-08-10, 02:30 PM
Heck, one can make an argument that even the traditional magical-sparkly-friendship-is-magic kind are also Warlocks.

Just Archfey patron (and the occasional Celestial) instead of GOO (or Fiend or Hex or Undying).

It's almost like a genre convention that they get their powers via some kind of personal relationship with a being of greater power, i.e. a patron. And they usually get a blasting power and a summon-a-weapon power too, as part of the package.

The few exceptions I can think of involve magitek magical girls (e.g. Nanoha), who are more like Artificers or Wizards, or possibly just commoners with one-too-many magical items.

I think the only non-Warlock I can think of is Princess Tutu, but that is such a weird example of the genre I don't know how you would even begin to do it in D&D. How do you qualify a cursed duck who uses dancing to solve people's problems?

NNescio
2019-08-10, 02:44 PM
I think the only non-Warlock I can think of is Princess Tutu, but that is such a weird example of the genre I don't know how you would even begin to do it in D&D. How do you qualify a cursed duck who uses dancing to solve people's problems?

Bard? If 3.5e, with Snowflake Wardance, Subsonics, and (ballet) Slippers of Battledancing.

EndlessKng
2019-08-10, 08:34 PM
I think the only non-Warlock I can think of is Princess Tutu, but that is such a weird example of the genre I don't know how you would even begin to do it in D&D. How do you qualify a cursed duck who uses dancing to solve people's problems?

Bard, but I think it is a bit of Warlock too.

People forget that Warlocks aren't just those who make deals to get powers. A warlock can steal power, or be awarded it against their will or without realizing what's happening. I'd argue that the aforementioned duck was given a "gift" by a patron who intended to use her in a plot that was intended to never be seen by the pawns. She'd be a Bard/Warlock blend, IMO.

Braininthejar2
2019-08-11, 04:18 PM
Hobgoblin in Spider Man, when he made a pact for power to compensate for the lack of goblin serum.

Bohandas
2023-04-12, 12:43 PM
Has anyone brought up cthulhu mythos villains yet? Particularly Joseph Curwen ("Dr.Allen"), Mr.Noyes, Obed Marsh, and Ephraim Waite

EDIT:
Oops, didn't notice this thread was old. Found it in a search.