Has anyone tried playing with double subclasses?

[D-naras]

I'm going to run a short hack & slash campaign and I am thinking of letting my players pick 2 subclasses instead of one, limited to a single class if they multiclass. For example, wizard abjurer + war wizard, fighter EK + battlemaster. I think they can handle the increased number of features and I plan to make it hard for them so they might need the boost.

Are there any wacky combos that I'm not seeing?

[Emongnome777]

Classes where the subclasses get bonus spells prepared will have quite the arsenal to pick from, but I don’t think it’s worse than other combos.

[Tiadoppler]

Something to watch out for:

Different classes get different amounts of their power from the chosen subclass.

Some classes have weak base classes and strong subclasses (and doubling the subclasses will make them much stronger). Some classes have strong base classes and weak subclasses (and doubling the subclasses won't help them much).

[Rentirith]

I Have done this a little as well, but only at low levels. The concept isn't that bad; action economy still limits people from getting to over-powered, and the extra options (at least for my players) weren't a huge hindrance in terms of keeping track of things.

Off the top of my head, there are a few things to keep in mind when you say 'double subclasses':

Go over the available choices with your players one-on-one. Make sure they know what they are getting into as well as yourself; sometimes players just want a more basic, by the rules game to start. That way their accomplishments feel more significant than saying 'oh well my dm just gave me the hand of vecna; I didn't have to work for it'.

Keep an eye on the divine classes (cleric, druid, paladin) because giving them more subclasses potentially means more spells always known. This is the main problem with double subclasses; the major limit of spells known for these traditionally support classes looses its meaning when you are doubling the number of domain spells. This is less of a problem for druid since only 2 of their circles give extra spells (land and spores).

Decide now what to do about wizards. An illusionist/enchanter will eventually become a dm in their own right, an abjurer/war mage will do a good job of nullifying most spellcasters, etc. Though I love the concept greatly, I would still ban the Unearthed Arcana Theurgy wizard; that subclass lets you choose a cleric domain and, RAW, as long as you have the two domain spells learned in your spellbook, you can choose ANY cleric spells of that level when you level up. You also get all of the traditional cleric goodies of that chosen domain, along with a superior channel divinity (bonus action, +2 to initial saving throw or spell attack roll, same CD cooldown).

Keep in mind the bardic colleges; lots of their features draw from the same resource, the bardic inspiration, so if you are giving out these buffs to everyone else, the bard might feel left out.

[CheddarChampion]

Warlocks and Sorcerers with multiple subclasses would have unusual RP implications.
Paladins getting bonus auras would be powerful.
Barbarians could get Bear totem resistance plus whatever else they want.
I guess an Assassin-Swashbuckler would stand to gain a lot but would not be overpowered: more reliable sneak attack + auto crits + bonus to initiative.

[Dungeon-noob]

Something to watch out for:

Different classes get different amounts of their power from the chosen subclass.

Some classes have weak base classes and strong subclasses (and doubling the subclasses will make them much stronger). Some classes have strong base classes and weak subclasses (and doubling the subclasses won't help them much).
This one right here is very important. Different classes have different balances between the base class and subclass. Normally not a problem since the wholes are balanced very well against each other, but with this change you are almost certain to throw that dynamic out of whack. You can still make it work, if you're carefull and keep an eye on who's picking what and what that means.

[D-naras]

Classes where the subclasses get bonus spells prepared will have quite the arsenal to pick from, but I don’t think it’s worse than other combos.

That's true. I think I am going to limit these classes (cleric, land druid, paladin I think) to be able to prepare 2 of the 4 available spells just to limit the bloat.

[Dork_Forge]

It'd be easier to evaluate if you float the idea with your players and gauge what they'd actually like to take , but for the most part it won't be game breaking. Off the top of my head the biggest issue I can think of is with Wizard, the extra durability of the Abjurer combined with another subclass would lead to a very formidable and standout Wizard.

It sounds like a fun concept to play through though!

[MrStabby]

It'd be easier to evaluate if you float the idea with your players and gauge what they'd actually like to take , but for the most part it won't be game breaking. Off the top of my head the biggest issue I can think of is with Wizard, the extra durability of the Abjurer combined with another subclass would lead to a very formidable and standout Wizard.

It sounds like a fun concept to play through though!

Yeah, although wizards can be a bit bonkers anyway...


For me, the worry is something like Lore Bard/Valor Bard or Swords Bard/Whispers Bard

So the first combo opens up things like an armoured bard with two attacks and spirit guardians/armour of Agathis or similar at level 6. This is a bit of a melee powerhouse that could be shaming some martial characters. The second is in some ways similar - at that same level 3d6 damage to an attack each turn is fine on a whispers bard as it brings them up to normal martial damage for that round; with two attacks so two chances to land this you have a damage spike like a paladin only probably with about 36d6 total damage over the day (Cha 18, 2 short rests).

Ranger is interesting - weak base class, powerful additions from subclasses. Gloomstalker Monster Slayer for example could be fun, and actually has some good progression as you maintain good abilities at both low and high levels.

[D-naras]

It'd be easier to evaluate if you float the idea with your players and gauge what they'd actually like to take , but for the most part it won't be game breaking. Off the top of my head the biggest issue I can think of is with Wizard, the extra durability of the Abjurer combined with another subclass would lead to a very formidable and standout Wizard.

It sounds like a fun concept to play through though!

Seeing what awesome characters they come up with is half the fun!

When I DMed 3.5, we mainly played with Gestalt rules and this is as close as I feel comfortable to simulating that power level in 5e. :smallbiggrin:

The party is going to be 16 lvl going through a Castlevania-like gauntlet.

Currently, I've got a Dragonborn Barbarian (Totem (Bear-Tiger-Bear) / Storm Herald (Sea)) and a Warlock (Hexblade / Celestial with the Blade boon). I'm still waiting for the other 2 players' builds.

[Randomthom]

Not tried this, sounds like a fun idea provided all ther players are rules-savvy and enjoy the extra layers this adds.

Fighter Battlemaster/Arcane Archer could be a fun battlefield controller.

Wizard Bladesinger/Abjurer could be an effective tank.

Sorcerer Draconic(Lightning)/Storm would be a fun blaster... provided they take the elemental adept feat...

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing you need to watch out for is when subclasses build off of features in the primary class as opposed to introducing new ones.

For example, the Transmutation Wizard makes its own features, where the War Mage builds off of the playstyle of the core Wizard. The reason this is important is that adding new features simply adds versatility, where building off of existing ones builds power AND versatility.

The Fighter would be a problem with this kind of game, as every single Fighter subclass builds off of the Attack action, meaning that they become more and more focused, and more and more powerful, as opposed to solving more problems.

On the other hand, if you mixed Dreams Druids and Moon Druids, there wouldn't be much of a power gain because they both introduce their own features that don't really synergize with the core Druid features. However, something like the Land and Shepherds Druids would be a problem, because they both enhance how spellcasting works.

There are a few exceptions, though. Rogue subclasses don't mesh well, because they all try to introduce their own Sneak Attack mechanics. You could, for example, combine a Swashbuckler and an Inquisitive, but what would that gain you?

You could do it half-assed, but doing it in a balanced way will need a thorough look at how subclasses interact with their core mechanics.

[Bloodcloud]

Sounds fun, and I'm sure they'll come up with neat combos.

Sheperd moon druid for the full zoo attacking.

Bladesinger/abjurer should indeed work quite well.

Infernal hexblade would be one tanky and dangerous SOB.

Arcana/Thunder cleric gets you all the armor and weapon, divine strike and potent spellcasting on booming blade. That is some real good synergy. Also, no lightning bolt (booo!) but MAXIMIZED CHAIN LIGHTNING!!! This is really good actually.

Valor/lore bards can get some really cool spell/melle combo going real quick, and the bardic inspiration use is really versatile.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm going to run a short hack & slash campaign and I am thinking of letting my players pick 2 subclasses instead of one, limited to a single class if they multiclass. For example, wizard abjurer + war wizard, fighter EK + battlemaster. I think they can handle the increased number of features and I plan to make it hard for them so they might need the boost.

Are there any wacky combos that I'm not seeing?

This has awesome implications for Bladelocks. Most of the Patrons have good RP potential and excellent background/"fluff" but making them work as single-classed BladeLocks isn't easy. OTOH, the Hexblade is mechanically OP but the "fluff" is barely useable. (WTF were you thinking, WOTC?) Having the benefit of combining the two would make for a much more playable Bladelock.

[Wasp]

I always wanted to combine stuff from Arcana and Knowledge Clerics - so this may be an idea...

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Interesting, although as mentioned above, some combinations are far better than others.

Not much to say about Bard, Barbarian, Paladin and Druid beyond what has been said.

Clerics get up to an extra 10 spells prepared (possible overlap) making them big winners; Arcane plus one other can provide lots of wizardness, but other possibilities abound. Choose one with heavy armor? A melee cleric with a melee cantrip might have both potent cantrip and melee attach bonuses at level 8.

Fighters are happy: Battlemaster plus Champion? EK versatility plus whatever?

Warlocks are weird, and need clarification: Does this variant provide 2 pacts? 2 patrons? Both? No extra spells or invocations here, so we expect hex (useful to buff even non-melee warlocks) plus something else. If this means 2 patrons.

Wizards don't get more spells prepared, but there are synergies beyond choosing two from Abjurer/Bladesinger/Warcaster. Diviner/anything comes immediately to mind.

Anyway,

Ken

[D-naras]

Hi,

Interesting, although as mentioned above, some combinations are far better than others.

Not much to say about Bard, Barbarian, Paladin and Druid beyond what has been said.

Clerics get up to an extra 10 spells prepared (possible overlap) making them big winners; Arcane plus one other can provide lots of wizardness, but other possibilities abound. Choose one with heavy armor? A melee cleric with a melee cantrip might have both potent cantrip and melee attach bonuses at level 8.

Fighters are happy: Battlemaster plus Champion? EK versatility plus whatever?

Warlocks are weird, and need clarification: Does this variant provide 2 pacts? 2 patrons? Both? No extra spells or invocations here, so we expect hex (useful to buff even non-melee warlocks) plus something else. If this means 2 patrons.

Wizards don't get more spells prepared, but there are synergies beyond choosing two from Abjurer/Bladesinger/Warcaster. Diviner/anything comes immediately to mind.

Anyway,

Ken

Classes that get bonus prepared spells, will choose which 2 out of the 4 to prepare each spell level.
Regarding Warlocks, they get double patrons, not pact boons, since that's the actual subclass. Pact boons are more like fighting styles.

[Wizard_Lizard]

What if they multiclass?
Also, Warlocks.

[D-naras]

What if they multiclass?
Also, Warlocks.

If they multiclass they will get this benefit only on 1 class.
Also, what about warlocks?

[MrStabby]

Hi,

Interesting, although as mentioned above, some combinations are far better than others.

Not much to say about Bard, Barbarian, Paladin and Druid beyond what has been said.

Clerics get up to an extra 10 spells prepared (possible overlap) making them big winners; Arcane plus one other can provide lots of wizardness, but other possibilities abound. Choose one with heavy armor? A melee cleric with a melee cantrip might have both potent cantrip and melee attach bonuses at level 8.

Fighters are happy: Battlemaster plus Champion? EK versatility plus whatever?

Warlocks are weird, and need clarification: Does this variant provide 2 pacts? 2 patrons? Both? No extra spells or invocations here, so we expect hex (useful to buff even non-melee warlocks) plus something else. If this means 2 patrons.

Wizards don't get more spells prepared, but there are synergies beyond choosing two from Abjurer/Bladesinger/Warcaster. Diviner/anything comes immediately to mind.

Anyway,

Ken

Hmm yeah. I hadn't factored this in. Reaper and the potent cantrip might be a bit good. Booming blade from an arcana cleric with heavy armour and radiant damage boost from a life cleric could hit unexpectedly hard.

[Nagog]

One thing you need to watch out for is when subclasses build off of features in the primary class as opposed to introducing new ones.

For example, the Transmutation Wizard makes its own features, where the War Mage builds off of the playstyle of the core Wizard. The reason this is important is that adding new features simply adds versatility, where building off of existing ones builds power AND versatility.

The Fighter would be a problem with this kind of game, as every single Fighter subclass builds off of the Attack action, meaning that they become more and more focused, and more and more powerful, as opposed to solving more problems.

On the other hand, if you mixed Dreams Druids and Moon Druids, there wouldn't be much of a power gain because they both introduce their own features that don't really synergize with the core Druid features. However, something like the Land and Shepherds Druids would be a problem, because they both enhance how spellcasting works.

There are a few exceptions, though. Rogue subclasses don't mesh well, because they all try to introduce their own Sneak Attack mechanics. You could, for example, combine a Swashbuckler and an Inquisitive, but what would that gain you?

You could do it half-assed, but doing it in a balanced way will need a thorough look at how subclasses interact with their core mechanics.

This is a great thing to point out. I could see taking Abjuration Wizard along with Evocation to become a Fireball Suicide bomber, or perhaps a Way of the Open Hand/Elemental Monk becoming massively powerful for damage output.


This has awesome implications for Bladelocks. Most of the Patrons have good RP potential and excellent background/"fluff" but making them work as single-classed BladeLocks isn't easy. OTOH, the Hexblade is mechanically OP but the "fluff" is barely useable. (WTF were you thinking, WOTC?) Having the benefit of combining the two would make for a much more playable Bladelock.

I think the Hexblade is the most RP Versatile patron of them all. Hexblade has no specifically stated entity as your patron, so you could use literally anything. For example, a HexLock in a campaign I'm DMing has his patron as the Raven Queen, but instead of using the Raven Queen patron he just uses that fluff. Critical Role Campaign 2 has Fjord, a Hexblade Warlock who's patron is mysterious and unknown for the first chunk of the story, but still adds a lot of fluff to the story. Hexblade Patron is potentially the best patron for fluff because it forces you to fill in the details yourself with whatever spin you want. Perhaps your Hexblade Patron is Bahumat, and you have the story capacity as a Paladin, or perhaps your Hexblade Patron is Mask and you are an offensive spell slinging Rogue. It's the best for fluff because you aren't forced into a specific light or specific role.

[Angelalex242]

Being a classical sort, I'd probably go Paladin with Devotion/Ancients.

I can now turn 3 kinds of creatures, get a +5 to hit at higher levels with channel divinity I'd actually use, Immune to Charm/Ward of the Ancients (Why I pick Ancients by itself, usually), Permanent Pro Evil/Immortality (and come back with one hp if you drop), and then not one, but /two/ Super Saiyan modes, each useable once per long rest. Granted, that's at level 20, but it's still pretty cool.

Also, that's a good bit of permanently memorized spells.

[D-naras]

Being a classical sort, I'd probably go Paladin with Devotion/Ancients.

I can now turn 3 kinds of creatures, get a +5 to hit at higher levels with channel divinity I'd actually use, Immune to Charm/Ward of the Ancients (Why I pick Ancients by itself, usually), Permanent Pro Evil/Immortality (and come back with one hp if you drop), and then not one, but /two/ Super Saiyan modes, each useable once per long rest. Granted, that's at level 20, but it's still pretty cool.

Also, that's a good bit of permanently memorized spells.

That's exactly what my 3rd player went with.

[Skylivedk]

I've run with ALL rogues getting the Thief subclass on top. It hasn't broken anything (but I've not tried it in campaigns higher than level ten).

Also, we've removed Champion and given remarkable athlete to all fighters.

Sorcerers are unfortunately not benefiting a whole lot, while clerics, warlocks and rangers get a ton from the change.

[Wizard_Lizard]

If they multiclass they will get this benefit only on 1 class.
Also, what about warlocks?

they have 2 subclasses.

[D-naras]

they have 2 subclasses.
No they don't. A pact boon is only a third level feature that you can choose to build on with invocations or not. It doesn't grant fixed features at set levels like patrons do.