3.x - Making Epic Spells That Duplicate 9ths?

[unseenmage]

Is it possible to use early epic casting to replicate your ninth level spells which have obnoxiously high component or xp costs then mitigate those costs away?

Anyone care to provide a How To if it is doable?

[noob]

Is it possible to use early epic casting to replicate your ninth level spells which have obnoxiously high component or xp costs then mitigate those costs away?

Anyone care to provide a How To if it is doable?

It is simple: make an epic spell that creates a dweomerkeeper with the spell you want as a supernatural ability.

[MisterKaws]

Tell us a spell and we might be able to replicate it. You can indeed do it fairly easily with most spells, with the exception of some like Disjunction and custom Wish.

[unseenmage]

Wish is top of the list of course. I'm just curious how the ultimate swiss army knife stacks up to other (effectively) 10th level spells.

Genesis, Simulacrum/Ice Assassin, and Smoky Confinement are a few I really would like to see.

Binding deserves mention as well. As does Gate I imagine.


Some spells are already so good and abusable that it's hard to imagine a kicked-up epic version of what's already a powerhouse magic.

[noob]

Wish is top of the list of course. I'm just curious how the ultimate swiss army knife stacks up to other (effectively) 10th level spells.

Genesis, Simulacrum/Ice Assassin, and Smoky Confinement are a few I really would like to see.

Binding deserves mention as well. As does Gate I imagine.


Some spells are already so good and abusable that it's hard to imagine a kicked-up epic version of what's already a powerhouse magic.

well I gave a solution to duplicate the effect of any nonepic or epic spell with an epic spell.

[unseenmage]

well I gave a solution to duplicate the effect of any nonepic or epic spell with an epic spell.

And it was very elegant.

However, I'm more interested in seeing how the traditionally powerful 9ths stack up to printed epic spells using the epic spell system itself.
Wish for example might involve enough disparate seeds to give it an uncommonly high spellcraft DC.

That and Im not sure if Dweomerkeeper SU abilities can be put into an Energy Transformation Field.

[MisterKaws]

Simulacrum is just an Origin of Species spell. Smoky Confinement is an Afflict(six senses)+Transform spell, with permanent duration. Genesis is one of those weird cases where the rules don't cover it, but you could make it into an epic seed using the rules given for that sort of thing.

[Biggus]

With spells that don't fit any particular seed, like Wish and Miracle, one way would be to start with the spell itself, and work out how much the spellcraft DC would increase if you removed the mitigating factors.

A 9th-level spell would have a base DC of 31, based on the sidebar on p.91 of the ELH. Burning 5000XP reduces the DC by 50, so that takes us up to 81. But epic spells have a base casting time of 1 minute, so if we want to bring them back to a standard action to cast, that's a further +20DC, for a total of 101.

This may not fly with a lot of DMs of course, but as there isn't a "universal" spell seed, there's no official way to benchmark this kind of spell. One way to check if the power level is about right is to compare them to an existing epic spell with a similar DC, and decide whether you'd rather have the modified spell you've created or the existing one. If it's a difficult choice, it's probably about the right DC. The closest one I can find in this case is Animus Blizzard with a DC of 78 and no components (with its 1-minute casting time, it would be DC 98 if cast as a standard action). While it's a very nice spell, I don't think it's as good as Wish or Miracle, so I suspect many DMs would add a significant ad hoc DC increase.

One problem with allowing a spell to duplicate Wish with no XP cost is that it would enable you to permanently increase all your ability scores, and those of all your teammates, friends, pets etc by giving inherent bonuses for free. Due to the epic spells per day limit, you wouldn't be able to give +5 bonuses until level 47 unless you're a theurge, by which time you'd all long since have been able to afford the 825,000GP for six tomes and manuals, so it may not matter too much. If your DM doesn't like the idea of you giving everybody +2 or +3 inherent bonuses at lower levels, one way to prevent this would be to say that you can only partially reduce the XP cost, not eliminate it entirely. Reducing it to half (2,500XP) would ensure that even if you had a Rod of Excellent Magic, you still couldn't reduce the cost to zero.

[Asmotherion]

With epic spells? The limit of what you can reslistically archive if you try is somewere between replacing your DM and creating your own universe. With a co-operating DM obviously.

[redking]

Here is some material I developed for Dark Sun. Its called an "aggravating factor". Its trades experience points for difficulty of casting. I have included two epic spells using this factor.

Aggravating factor: experience point substitution.

Where an epic spell, such as those used by the shadow seed, require an expenditure of XP because the original spell has an XP expenditure, experience points can be substituted by adding +1 DC per 20 XP to be substituted to the final Spellcraft DC to cast the spell. The aggravating factor is not calculated as a development cost, rather it is added to the spellcraft DC when casting the epic spell. In addition, a spell such as wish has a secondary XP cost beyond the base cost for casting such as in the event of creating magical items via wish, these secondary XP expenditures cannot be substituted by an aggravating factor. For example, the base 5000 XP of the wish spell can be substituted by adding +250 DC to the final Spellcraft DC, but no other XP expenditures may be substituted. When using an aggravating factor for a spell with an XP component, the aggravating factor must pay for the entire amount of XP, and not split between burning XP and the aggravating factor. To calculate the DC simply divide the XP to be substituted by 20.

Rajaat’s Shadow Wish

Illusion (shadow) (psionic enchantment)
Spellcraft DC: 23 DC (250 DC: aggravated), total 273 DC
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Target, effect or area: As wish spell
Duration: As wish spell
Saving Throw: As wish spell
Spell Resistance: Yes

To develop: 207,000 Cp, 5 days, 8280 XP. Seed: shadow (DC 23). Factors: duplicate wish 9th level arcane spell (+40 DC). 1-action casting time (+20). Mitigating factors: Psionic enchantment via expenditure of epic power slot (-19 DC). 41d6 backlash damage (-41 DC). Aggravating factor: substitution of 5000 XP expenditure for difficulty of casting (+250 DC aggravated to cast).

This spell is identical to the wish spell (the 5000 XP cost already being paid by the aggravating factor). If this spell creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item.

Rajaat would generally use this psionic enchantment in conjunction with his mystical reservoir to instantly create magical or psionic items (Rajaat’s mystical reservoir has up to 10,500 XP available). Rajaat used to cast this spell in conjunction with the Dark Lens and likely cannot meet the spellcraft DC without it.

Shadow King’s Psionic True Creation

Illusion (shadow) (psionic enchantment)
Spellcraft DC: 23 DC (50 DC: aggravated), total 73 DC
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Target, effect or area: As psionic true creation
Duration: As psionic true creation
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

To develop: 207,000 Cp, 5 days, 8280 XP. Seed: shadow (DC 23). Factors: duplicate psionic true creation 9th level power (+40 DC). Mitigating factors: psionic enchantment via expenditure of epic power slot (-19 DC). Burn 2400 XP during casting (-24 DC). Aggravating factor: substitution of 1000 XP expenditure for difficulty of casting (+50 DC aggravated to cast).

This spell is the same as psionic true creation. The caster creates a nonmagical, unattended object of any sort of matter. Items created are permanent and cannot be negated by dispelling magics or negating powers. For all intents and purposes, these items are completely real. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. The caster must succeed at an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

Unlike the items brought into being by the lower-level spells minor creation and major creation, objects created by the casting of true creation can be used as material components. The maximum value for the items brought into being by this spell is 5000 Cp.

The Shadow King of Nibenay abhors shortages and the concomitant price gouging by merchants. When a raw material is in shortage and the price rises dramatically, the Shadow King will often produce the material using this psionic enchantment, flooding the city market and thus bring the price down. The merchants operating in Nibenay know better than to attempt to corner a market for this reason -although they do not know that Nibenay produces the materials via spells, they believe that the Shadow King has stockpiles of all kinds of materials.

[Bronk]

However, I'm more interested in seeing how the traditionally powerful 9ths stack up to printed epic spells using the epic spell system itself.
Wish for example might involve enough disparate seeds to give it an uncommonly high spellcraft DC.

I think the problem with replicating wish with epic magic is that it has so many possible effects, even just the safe uses, while the point of epic spells is that you nail down exactly what it does without any variation. You'd need one epic spell for every safe use, then another one just for asking greater powers to help you with unsafe uses. It might be easier to just try making an epic spell of friendly god creation at that point.

[redking]

Wish is top of the list of course. I'm just curious how the ultimate swiss army knife stacks up to other (effectively) 10th level spells.

Genesis, Simulacrum/Ice Assassin, and Smoky Confinement are a few I really would like to see.

Binding deserves mention as well. As does Gate I imagine.


Some spells are already so good and abusable that it's hard to imagine a kicked-up epic version of what's already a powerhouse magic.

Simulacrum I can do.

Shadow King’s Perfect Simulacrum

Illusion (shadow) (psionic enchantment)
Spellcraft DC: 23 DC (100 DC: aggravated), total 123 DC
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Target, effect or area: As simulacrum
Duration: As simulacrum
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

To develop: 207,000 Cp, 5 days, 8280 XP. Seed: shadow (DC 23). Factors: duplicate simulacrum 7th level power (+30 DC). Has the same levels and HD of an original creature up to 20 HD (Ad hoc + 20 DC). Mitigating factors: psionic enchantment via expenditure of epic power slot (-19 DC). Burn 3100 XP during casting (-31 DC). Aggravating factor: substitution of 2000 XP expenditure for difficulty of casting (+100 DC aggravated to cast).

This spell produces a simulacrum as the simulacrum spell, but has the same statistics as the original creature of up to 20 HD. You need a piece of the creature of which you plan to copy as an essential component of the spell.

The Shadow King is loath to lose a good servant. And an even better servant is one who obeys without question and with total loyalty. When the Shadow King discovers an individual or creature with the qualities that he desires, he will often get a piece of the being to use as material to copy it as a simulacrum.

[Âmesang]

Theoretically the shadow seed should be able to create a wish-like spell that duplicates anything (that the target believes, anyway)? Otherwise my first thought was using the transport seed to recreate time stop (usually as the basis for creating a "mass time stop"), and Mordenkainen's disjunction is just a souped-up dispel magic, effectively combining the targeted version with the area version (plus a few changes here and there).

Granted, the last time I messed around with epic spells it was to recreate 10th- and 11th-level AD&D spells like Mavin's worldweave (https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/forum/thread.php?thread=67#2) (though it required me to alter the permanency factor to apply after both other factors and mitigating factors, instead of just the former; I find it seriously screwy that some epic spells have DCs so high that even [default] Boccob and Mystra can't cast them without optimization of their own).