High level sorcerer

[Jaryn]

This is pure theorycrafting, but I was idly wondering what the spell list of a high level sorcerer would look like. Mostly because I generally like the utility of lots of spells, so the idea of restricting yourself to fifteen seemed like a fun challenge.

He would have to be generally useful to his friends (i.e. not all damage spells), but definitely capable of blasting. Assuming draconic bloodline.

I came up with the following. Do you think it looks reasonably balanced?

1 Detect magic
1 Shield
2 Scorching ray
3 Fireball
3 Counterspell
3 Haste
4 Greater invisibility
4 Polymorph
5 Animate objects
5 Telekinesis
6 Mass suggestion
7 Plane shift
8 Fire storm
9 Meteor swarm
9 Wish

The number before relates to the spell level, obviously.

I did wonder about adding Feather fall in, as the character would have won by that point, but figured that wings are less likely to run out than a Fly spell!

[Âmesang]

I offered a response to a similar thread a few days ago; my (currently) planned spell list for a 3e to 5e sorcerer conversion with a touch of homebrew:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24008064&postcount=3

[Atranen]

I think you have too much overlap of spell type; polymorph, greater invisibility, and haste all are single-target concentration spells at a valuable spell level, and I think swapping one or both could be a good choice. Ditto for animate objects and telekinesis; I would pick just one. Adding in Thunderstep (Xanathar's) or Dimension Door would offer utility without competing for concentration, while Synaptic Static (Xanathar's) gives you a blast + debuff in one.

[GeistInMachine]

Haste, Greater Invis, and Polymorph is a little overkill, I would recommend swapping at least one to Dimension Door; the mobility is very useful and can set up some great combos, escapes, or infiltrations with teammates. Also helps alleviate how may concentration options you have.

Also, Fire Storm is a 7th level spell, you have it marked as an 8th. Incendiary Cloud works well with Dragon Sorc, but Sunburst is a non-conc blast with a blindness rider. If you do want to pick up another 7th, i may actually recommend Crown of Stars. It isn't as flashy, but its very, very resource efficient damage, and non-concentration. I may even consider swapping out Animate Objects for it; AO is good, but at high levels many enemies are non-magic damage resistant, which means it does less damage than CoS at that point, and with CoS not being concentration, your actions for large spells makes up the difference. Actually pairs real well with something like your Telekinesis for restrains, which give you advantage (And a higher chance of a CoS crit is very nice).

Detect Magic is a fairly common spell; i bet allies will have it, with the ability to cast it as a ritual. having it on a sorcer is best done through Ritual Caster. I would recommend you grab Misty Step instead for added mobility or Mirror Image for more defence. Blindness/Deafness if you want more offense.

[Zetakya]

I asked a similar question a few days ago as well.

The one question I have with your list is about what Metamagic you are taking, because for Sorcerer a lot of your spell synergy keys off that.

[Jaryn]

Apologies for not searching back - that'll teach me to start threads just before bed!

I had completely forgotten about concentration. A most excellent point. I think Haste would be first on the chopping block. Not because it's least effective; I just love the idea of turning invisible or changing someone into a frog!

Of course, wizard rituals. That definitely means that Detect Magic can get lost and Mirror Image come in.

Dimension Door is definitely in, and Crown of Stars is an excellent overlook. That would be that critical alternative damage source, meaning that Animate Objects could probably cycle out.

So, we currently have:

1 Shield
2 Mirror image
2 Scorching ray
3 Fireball
3 Counterspell
4 Dimension door
4 Greater invisibility
4 Polymorph
5 Telekinesis
6 Mass suggestion
7 Crown of stars
7 Plane shift
7 Fire storm
9 Meteor swarm
9 Wish

OK, my last wondering... Do I go big and remove Polymorph for another non-concentration level 5 or 6, and do I have too many level 7s?

Chain Lightning, Synaptic Static or Sunbeam could further diversify damage source, whereas True Seeing or Teleportation Circle feel like they could offer interesting utility...

Oh yes, and regarding metamagic I'm thinking (in no particular order) Empowered Spell, Quickened Spell, Twinned Spell and Subtle Spell.

[Fable Wright]

As a wizard & druid player, the thought of only 15 spells available has me screaming inside.

My recommendations for generalized support are...

1. Absorb Elements. At Tier 4 play, you're going to see a lot more elemental damage, and Shield is very rarely going to turn a hit into a miss anymore.
2. Levitate. When you don't want to burn resources, this is still a save or die for some enemies, as well as acting as a level 2 Telekinesis, and it can let you reach the top shelf in a pinch. Not bad at all.
3. Slow. Fireball, at this level, is doing bad damage no matter how much you upcast. Meanwhile, big AoE spells like Reverse Gravity and Synaptic Static are going to be hard to drop in the middle of your own party when the melee dissolves into a flustercluck. Slow, on the other had, is as good as it's ever been with the number of multi-attacking and spellcasting monsters.
3. Counterspell? Counterspell.
3. Thunder Step over Dimension Door. Either one is good because spiriting an ally to safety, and general utility, is great. I'll mention Thunder Step as the better one because it doesn't compete with Greater Invisibility at this level, and there's benefits to upcasting it—it's only 1 damage less per slot than Erupting Earth, combined with more flexible slot use. Works better with Empower.
4. Greater Invisibility. You want a single-target buff? This is the single-target buff. I'd drop Polymorph since turning an ally to a CR 7 is a bit of a debuff at this level.
4. Storm Sphere. Do you want to blast? This is how you blast. Difficult terrain. Painful AoE. Bonus action lightning damage. All of it scales well, and it lasts the full fight. Quite possibly better than Sunbeam, and two levels lower.
5. Synaptic Static. The AoE debuff and save type are great, and it's the most spammable spell you can convert sorcery points into.
6. Mass Suggestion is good.
6. Disintegrate. Primarily because being able to annihilate annoying terrain, and Wall of Force, and it's Twinnable, and using it on Stunned creatures (combo with Monk) means automatic ridiculous damage just makes it a very versatile spell.
7. Reverse Gravity. Firestorm deals 7d10 fire, average 38.5 damage to all who fail the save in the very sculptable area. Reverse Gravity, on an open field, does 10d6 damage when you drop everyone, and just takes some enemies out of the fight without a save, and can be used for general utility. And can do 20d6 in the ideal situation of a 100' cavern ceiling, but that's hard to set up. I'd pass on Crown of Stars for you—you can already deal 4d12 with a Quickened cantrip for 2 sorcery points; don't waste a level 7 slot on it.
9. Meteor Swarm.
9. Wish.

Then there's two flex slots to use as you see fit. I could see Chain Lightning being multi-target, decent damage, and able to work around the party after things turn into an unorganized melee, and Hypnotic Pattern that can end fights before they begin. Though Animate Objects is a strong contender as well, the sheer number of enemies who are resistant/immune to nonmagical physical damage make it much weaker in tier 4. Plane Shift can't really be used offensively, but it can be a full-party escape option if necessary, so it deserves a mention.

[Zetakya]

Apologies for not searching back - that'll teach me to start threads just before bed!

I had completely forgotten about concentration. A most excellent point. I think Haste would be first on the chopping block. Not because it's least effective; I just love the idea of turning invisible or changing someone into a frog!

Of course, wizard rituals. That definitely means that Detect Magic can get lost and Mirror Image come in.

Dimension Door is definitely in, and Crown of Stars is an excellent overlook. That would be that critical alternative damage source, meaning that Animate Objects could probably cycle out.

So, we currently have:

1 Shield
2 Mirror image
2 Scorching ray
3 Fireball
3 Counterspell
4 Dimension door
4 Greater invisibility
4 Polymorph
5 Telekinesis
6 Mass suggestion
7 Crown of stars
7 Plane shift
7 Fire storm
9 Meteor swarm
9 Wish

OK, my last wondering... Do I go big and remove Polymorph for another non-concentration level 5 or 6, and do I have too many level 7s?

Chain Lightning, Synaptic Static or Sunbeam could further diversify damage source, whereas True Seeing or Teleportation Circle feel like they could offer interesting utility...

Oh yes, and regarding metamagic I'm thinking (in no particular order) Empowered Spell, Quickened Spell, Twinned Spell and Subtle Spell.

OK, some thought:

You have only 2 spells that are usable with Twined Spell. Neither are damage spells (Polymorph and Greater Invisibility). Neither are bad spells, but I think the utility here is not terribly huge.

I think you are top-loading your spell selection quite heavily. You've got a full third of your Spells known at level 7+, at which level you get only 4 casts per day (and you can't recreate slots from SP at that level). Also you should check if your DM even allows Wish - some don't.

What Cantrips are you planning to take with this? What's your "nothing else is happening, fall back on damage dealing" option? Are you the Party face and dealing with social situations?

All but one of the damage spells you are carrying here are Fire, but the origin you are taking doesn't include any resistance bypass mechanism. Damage lock is bad.

Consider Chromatic Orb, which works really well with Twinned Spell (damage output for a level 1 spell with a 1SP Metamagic that is equal to an upcast to level 4, plus you choose damage type).

[Iados]

OK, some thought:
Consider Chromatic Orb, which works really well with Twinned Spell (damage output for a level 1 spell with a 1SP Metamagic that is equal to an upcast to level 4, plus you choose damage type).

While Chromatic Orb is a fantastic spell at early levels, it loses its edge at higher levels. If the high-level sorcerer in question has 15 spells, that means we're dealing with a 17th+ level caster who would deal 4d10 damage via a Fire Bolt cantrip. Twin that to deal even more damage than Chromatic Orb will do, and without the cost of a spell slot. Most importantly, this prevents the sorcerer from wasting one of their fifteen precious spells known on a spell that is outperformed by a cantrip at higher levels.

If we're worried this approach limits the sorcerer against creatures that are resistant/immune to fire, the sorcerer can also invest one of their six cantrips in Acid Splash, and one of their four (or five, if we're dealing with a sorcerer at level 19 or 20) feats in Elemental Adept (Fire). Such a caster will be able to deal full damage with Fire Bolt against creatures that are normally resistant to fire, and the caster can rely on Acid Splash to deal damage to creatures that are immune to fire. (Which, at 4d6, deals an average of 14 points of damage, which still outperforms the average 13.5 damage that Chromatic Orb does.) Acid Splash cannot be twinned, but it can damage two adjacent targets, which means you can achieve the desired effect without having to spend a sorcery point.

This strategy will provide the spellcaster with the means to damage most enemies with cantrips. The only official 5e creature that I can think of that is innately immune to fire and resistant to acid damage is Tiamat. And if you're fighting Tiamat, chances are you're not going to try to take her down with mere cantrips.

Edit: I spoke too soon; Black Abishai can also ignore both fire and acid damage. The fire/acid strategy nevertheless works for 99% of creatures in 5e.

[Skyblaze]

Personally, I dropped scorching ray at level 6 with my sorcerer. 2 firebolts (quickened) exceeds it damage wise and you get an opening for another spell.

[Zetakya]

While Chromatic Orb is a fantastic spell at early levels, it loses its edge at higher levels. If the high-level sorcerer in question has 15 spells, that means we're dealing with a 17th+ level caster who would deal 4d10 damage via a Fire Bolt cantrip. Twin that to deal even more damage than Chromatic Orb will do, and without the cost of a spell slot. Most importantly, this prevents the sorcerer from wasting one of their fifteen precious spells known on a spell that is outperformed by a cantrip at higher levels.

Fair point; but the point remains that we need to know the Cantrip selection before we can judge the utility of the Metamagic, and I still think the Spell selection is loaded towards the top end.