[3.5] Entomanothrope Questions

[Thurbane]

So, looking at the Entomanothropy (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) template..

Is it just me, or is it strictly better than Lycanthropy?

I mean, both aren't great for PCs, due to extra HD and LA, but as well of most of the goodies that Lycanthropes get, Entomanothropes get immunity to mind-affecting attacks, and the ability to command vermin of their own "type". Additionally, doesn't come with any sort of enforced alignment change. It also has more leeway with size differences: while you are limited to vermin no more than one size larger, there seems to be no lower limit.

Downsides are that vermin don't normally get feats for the RHD, and a -2 to Int.

Still, it seems strictly better than Lycanthropy. Am I missing something?

Cheers - T

[DrMotives]

Nah, only extra downside is the -2 int. Vermin don't get RHD feats because they're mindless, entomanothropes get feats per their HD as normal.

[Thurbane]

Nah, only extra downside is the -2 int. Vermin don't get RHD feats because they're mindless, entomanothropes get feats per their HD as normal.

So you get to chose your own feats for the extra RHD? Wow, so yeah, definitely better than Lycanthrope.

I'm going to work on some Entomanothrope villains for my game. :smallbiggrin:

[MisterKaws]

The disadvantage is the Hybrid Form is always your own size, and the Vermin Form is always one smaller than your size, regardless of original size.

For bruisers focusing on size-dependent maneuvers, Lycanthropes are better.

[DrMotives]

The disadvantage is the Hybrid Form is always your own size, and the Vermin Form is always one smaller than your size, regardless of original size.

For bruisers focusing on size-dependent maneuvers, Lycanthropes are better.

Well, they have some flexibility.

Entomanothropes can assume vermin forms one size smaller than the base creature size, regardless of the normal size of the vermin type. For example, an entomanothrope that is humanoid and Large monstrous scorpion could become a Small monstrous scorpion, though its hybrid form would be Medium and its normal vermin form would be Large.

So the hybrid is always the same size as base creature, but full vermin form can be selected from up to 1 size bigger, and can choose variant options down to 1 size below base form. That is, a human werespider could select "Large monstrous hunting spider" as its vermin. As a hybrid, it gets the ability mods of a Large spider, even though the hybrid shape is still medium. When assuming full spider form, the character can choose from Small, Medium, or Large forms.

[Bronk]

The disadvantage is the Hybrid Form is always your own size, and the Vermin Form is always one smaller than your size, regardless of original size.

For bruisers focusing on size-dependent maneuvers, Lycanthropes are better.

Oh no, they get to change into a regular sized version of the vermin form, and on top of that they also get an additional form that is sized one size category smaller than the base creature. A medium creature with the normal alternate form of a large vermin could also choose to be a small version of the vermin.

They also keep all special attacks in hybrid form, which can be useful as well.

[OgresAreCute]

Nearly all animal feats are filler trash like alertness, run and toughness anyway, so you're not missing out on much in that regard.

[Vizzerdrix]

Nearly all animal feats are filler trash like alertness, run and toughness anyway, so you're not missing out on much in that regard.

Fuel for dark chaos shuffle.

[Celestia]

Nah, only extra downside is the -2 int. Vermin don't get RHD feats because they're mindless, entomanothropes get feats per their HD as normal.
There is one other downside, actually. Vermin tend to have worse stats than animals. For instance, a medium monstrous spider gives you +6 dex and +2 con for 2 RHD, while a wolf gives you +2 str, +4 dex, and +4 con for 2 RHD, and a black bear gives +8 str, +2 dex, and +4 con for 3 RHD. And it only gets worse if you look at the large sized comparisons.

[Troacctid]

I don't think you want to go big. Better to go small and have fewer or even no RHD.

[MisterKaws]

I don't think you want to go big. Better to go small and have fewer or even no RHD.

My favorite is Argent Spider for a player Entomanothrope.

But for a foe, I like using larger creatures and just giving them the biggest vermins on the block. They usually end up getting quite a lot of HD and new abilities, so it really helps in some cases.

[ben-zayb]

An oft-forgotten disadvantage of Entomanothrope related to the INT penalty: Your ability score increase from Entomanothrope HD can't be put on INT.

If that's a deal breaker, make sure to minimize your Entomanothrope RHD to 3 at most, your combined pre-Entomanothrope HD modulo 4 better be 0.

[weckar]

The entomanothrope takes on characteristics of some monstrous vermin (not swarms) no more than one size category larger than the base creature (referred to as the base vermin).Darn, they beat me to my immediate obvious idea.

Quick related question; what does the prefix Entomano- mean? My dictionary can't place it...

[Thurbane]

Entomology (from Ancient Greek ἔντομον (entomon), meaning 'insect', and -λογία (-logia), meaning 'study of') is the scientific study of insects, a branch of zoology.

I'm assuming it's a corruption/portmanteau of 'entomon' and 'lycanthropy'...

[MisterKaws]

Darn, they beat me to my immediate obvious idea.

Quick related question; what does the prefix Entomano- mean? My dictionary can't place it...

You got the wrong prefix. That's why you can't find it.

Not that I blame you - the correct spelling would be Entomonanthrope. Comes from ἔντομον (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἔντομον)(éntomon, “insect”), and ἄνθρωπος (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἄνθρωπος)(ánthrōpos, “man, human”). Wizards messed with the spelling and we get to suffer for it.

[OgresAreCute]

You got the wrong prefix. That's why you can't find it.

Not that I blame you - the correct spelling would be Entomonanthrope. Comes from ἔντομον (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἔντομον)(éntomon, “insect”), and ἄνθρωπος (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἄνθρωπος)(ánthrōpos, “man, human”). Wizards messed with the spelling and we get to suffer for it.

WotC messing up Greek is a refreshing change from them messing up Latin.

[Thurbane]

Now to work on an NPC/villain for my game. Some kind of Entomanothrope giant, with an undead template applied, so I can also apply the Hivenest and Swarmshifter templates. Then I'll infest it with Rancid Beetle swams (Rancid Beetles can infect creatures and create Rancid Zombies). Bonus points if I can get it into the Verminkeeper prestige class. :smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

A few things, first in my sig there's a thread about random animal templates. It's a list of templates that dont change an animal's type. A lot of them work for the vermin side of an Entomanothrope too.

Also there are a couple of odd restrictions for Entomanothrope. That they cannot cast spells in hybrid form for whatever reason and that if they do not qualify for one of their base vermin bonus feats they cannot use it in non vermin form.
Which is weird because vermin usually dont have feats and because that's not how bonus feats work, but whatever.

[Meditation]

You got the wrong prefix. That's why you can't find it.

Not that I blame you - the correct spelling would be Entomonanthrope. Comes from ἔντομον (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἔντομον)(éntomon, “insect”), and ἄνθρωπος (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἄνθρωπος)(ánthrōpos, “man, human”). Wizards messed with the spelling and we get to suffer for it.

I suspect that that’s incorrect and that the correct term would be “entomothrope,” where the “entomo-“ prefix and the “-anthrope” combine and drop the “a” portion of the latter, similar to “lycanthropy” and the more generic (and highly useful) “therianthropy.” Even if we disagree, we will likely agree with the following: Pathfinder uses the term “entothrope” which seems almost deliberately and aggressively wrong.

Unless I’m given special dispensation from the DM vis-a-vis HD and LA, my solution is to play therianthropes without HD. Numbers in 3x round down by default, so the bestest thing to find in a bestiary is an animal or vermin with 1/2 HD. Argent Spiders, mentioned above, are the basis of a PC of mine that, unfortunately, can’t take advantage of this quirk (their smallest form has a full 1 HD), but other vermin do fit the bill.

The serious claim to fame is that entomothropes get the special attacks of their base vermin in hybrid form whereas lycanthropes get thoroughly screwed. The thematic hit here is enormous: you can pick an animal specifically for its special attacks and get bupkis.

Therianthropes are so poorly handled in 3x that I think that houseruling should be mandatory when they’re involved. PF’s versions may be a bit superior since they simply cost less (and change the rather dramatically-strong immunity-to-mind-affecting for vermin to a mere stat bonus), but whether or not that cost reduction works for your table is a whole other thing.

And you can play a swarm therianthrope in PF.

[DrMotives]

And you can play a swarm therianthrope in PF.

How does that even work? If my animal form is "swarm of rats", what's my hybrid? A lot of little rat-people? A person with a dozens of tiny heads fusing into one big neck? Just some sort of Giger-ish nightmare image made a deep-learning AI searching the term 'rat-king'?

[MisterKaws]

I suspect that that’s incorrect and that the correct term would be “entomothrope,” where the “entomo-“ prefix and the “-anthrope” combine and drop the “a” portion of the latter, similar to “lycanthropy” and the more generic (and highly useful) “therianthropy.” Even if we disagree, we will likely agree with the following: Pathfinder uses the term “entothrope” which seems almost deliberately and aggressively wrong.

If that were the case, it would be Entanthrope, since Lycanthrope eats up the suffix to "Likos".

[Meditation]

If that were the case, it would be Entanthrope, since Lycanthrope eats up the suffix to "Likos".

Well, it would be "Entomthrope" if we dropped the last vowel. "Entomo-" is an established prefix already -- e.g., "entomophagous" -- so if we're following how that prefix works, it's "Entomothrope." Otherwise, an organism that eats insects would be "entomphagous," which, apparently, nobody says. Given that scientists haven't weighed in on how we should pronounce our elfgames, you could force-meme a technically-incorrect neologism without that much effort -- there's no pushback -- but I think "Entomothrope" is the easiest to say. "Entomthrope" changes the emphasis so the prefix is pronounced differently than in "entomophagous."


How does that even work? If my animal form is "swarm of rats", what's my hybrid? A lot of little rat-people? A person with a dozens of tiny heads fusing into one big neck? Just some sort of Giger-ish nightmare image made a deep-learning AI searching the term 'rat-king'?

Go simpler. What does the hybrid form of a were-octopus even look like?

Every un-illustrated therianthropy is, stylistically, basically homebrew.

Modern depictions of Dracula have him changing into a swarm of bats, so nothing's stopping you from playing a sexy dude in a very-encompassing trenchcoat.

[MisterKaws]

Well, it would be "Entomthrope" if we dropped the last vowel. "Entomo-" is an established prefix already -- e.g., "entomophagous" -- so if we're following how that prefix works, it's "Entomothrope." Otherwise, an organism that eats insects would be "entomphagous," which, apparently, nobody says. Given that scientists haven't weighed in on how we should pronounce our elfgames, you could force-meme a technically-incorrect neologism without that much effort -- there's no pushback -- but I think "Entomothrope" is the easiest to say. "Entomthrope" changes the emphasis so the prefix is pronounced differently than in "entomophagous."

Again, the full "-anthrope" suffix is used on Lycanthrope, so if you just drop the -o, you'd get "Entomanthrope" instead. There's no "-thrope" suffix; Wizards specifically botched Greek to make that word.


How does that even work? If my animal form is "swarm of rats", what's my hybrid? A lot of little rat-people? A person with a dozens of tiny heads fusing into one big neck? Just some sort of Giger-ish nightmare image made a deep-learning AI searching the term 'rat-king'?

A Worm That Walks, but rats instead.

[Rijan_Sai]

How does that even work? If my animal form is "swarm of rats", what's my hybrid? A lot of little rat-people? A person with a dozens of tiny heads fusing into one big neck? Just some sort of Giger-ish nightmare image made a deep-learning AI searching the term 'rat-king'?

Swarm of Rats hybrid form (https://youtu.be/E7NvJ34H518?t=8s) (okay, technically mice, but the concept is the same!)

[ShurikVch]

Fear Moths (Dragons of Faerûn):
Fear moths suck all resistance to fear effects away from characters, including a paladin's aura of courage. This means that any immunities to fear or bonuses on saving throws against fear that those characters possess are nullified when within 100 feet of the moths.Play as a dreaded Mothman:
Mind Blank?
Undead?
Mindless?
Sorry, you're still afraid of me!

[Thurbane]

Yeah, there are vermin with some very weird abilities in 3.5. The psionic ones, Leechwalker, Astral Kraken, the Fear Moth example...

Animals don't tend to have as much of this. I mean, there are one or two psionic animals in the WotC 3.0 web articles, but usually, animals have more subdued (Ex) abilities.

Yet another reason to like Entomanothropy.

Just looked up Fear Moths...they are listed as a hazard, rather than a creature? Having no stat block that I can find, I don't think they'd be a legal creature for the template.

[unseenmage]

...

Just looked up Fear Moths...they are listed as a hazard, rather than a creature? Having no stat block that I can find, I don't think they'd be a legal creature for the template.
Yet strangely they work as a custom trap due to having a listed CR and plausibly convertible effects.

[ShurikVch]

Just looked up Fear Moths...they are listed as a hazard, rather than a creature? Having no stat block that I can find, I don't think they'd be a legal creature for the template. And why they would be illegal?
Template bans swarms, not hazards...

If it's so difficult to make a "generic Vermin", you may use statistics for Moth Familiar (Dragon #323, refluffed Thrush Familiar)

[Thurbane]

And why they would be illegal?
Template bans swarms, not hazards...

If it's so difficult to make a "generic Vermin", you may use statistics for Moth Familiar (Dragon #323, refluffed Thrush Familiar)

That's...a stretch. Would never fly at our table.

But hey, each to their own.

[DrMotives]

A bigger issue with a weremoth is that fearmoths are, presumably, Fine sized creatures. If these are the size of luna moths, then maybe they're Diminutive sized creatures. You'd be limited to Tiny humanoids (or Tiny giants?) as the base creature to gain the weremoth template. Other than maybe some Hengeyokai in animal form, I'm unaware of anything with that meet those type & size requirements. And using their animal form to qualify for given were-creature's size requirements feels like it's against RAI, even if it's RAW legal.

[OgresAreCute]

A bigger issue with a weremoth is that fearmoths are, presumably, Fine sized creatures. If these are the size of luna moths, then maybe they're Diminutive sized creatures. You'd be limited to Tiny humanoids (or Tiny giants?) as the base creature to gain the weremoth template. Other than maybe some Hengeyokai in animal form, I'm unaware of anything with that meet those type & size requirements. And using their animal form to qualify for given were-creature's size requirements feels like it's against RAI, even if it's RAW legal.

Half-Giant with two or three castings of Return to Nature would work, though it is somewhat cheesy and obscure.

[ShurikVch]

A bigger issue with a weremoth is that fearmoths are, presumably, Fine sized creatures. If these are the size of luna moths, then maybe they're Diminutive sized creatures. You'd be limited to Tiny humanoids (or Tiny giants?) as the base creature to gain the weremoth template. Other than maybe some Hengeyokai in animal form, I'm unaware of anything with that meet those type & size requirements. And using their animal form to qualify for given were-creature's size requirements feels like it's against RAI, even if it's RAW legal.Please, re-read the template: it limits the maximal size of Vermin - not minimal :smallwink:

[MisterKaws]

A bigger issue with a weremoth is that fearmoths are, presumably, Fine sized creatures. If these are the size of luna moths, then maybe they're Diminutive sized creatures. You'd be limited to Tiny humanoids (or Tiny giants?) as the base creature to gain the weremoth template. Other than maybe some Hengeyokai in animal form, I'm unaware of anything with that meet those type & size requirements. And using their animal form to qualify for given were-creature's size requirements feels like it's against RAI, even if it's RAW legal.

Entomanothrope does not restrict sizes downwards, only upwards. I've been tinkering with a Were-Hoard Scarab build for fun. It's 2 LA with no HD and a massive bonus to hide.