Fixing the Underpowered Class #3: the Paladin

[yarrowdeathbloo]

This is part 3 in my series of post where I attempt to make the underpowered classes of 3.5e more powerful the last one was the monk (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590786-Fixing-the-Underpowered-Class-2-the-Monk&p=24013328#post24013328).

Ideally I'm trying to get theese classes to be contributing to the party about as much as the bard, psychic warrior or the binder. So then let's see what kinda baggage the paladin has then.

The Problems
-MAD
-Lack of class skills and skill Points
-Lack of meaningful ways to contribute outside of combat
-Has a specifically aligned stick up it's rear

Tweaks
Alignment: When a character first gains a level in paladin they choose Chaotic,Evil,Good, or Lawful; they are treated as a paladin of that alignment and must contain that aspect in their alignment, if their alignment is changed forcibly to not match their chosen alignment (such as through magic) they must choose a new alignment to champion. If a paladin willingly changes their alignment to not match their chosen alignment they lose all abilities pertaining to their old alignment.

Code of honor: is now up to the player.

Skills: The Paladin now adds; Bluff, Gather Information, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot to their class skills. Also the Paladin has base skill points = 4+int modifier

Detect Alignment: The Paladin can now detect the alignment of any creature.

Smite: The Paladin can now use smite against creatures of any alignment, and can be used a number of times each day equal to ½ your Paladin (round down) level +1.

Spellcasting: The Paladin also uses Charisma instead of wisdom whenever applicable for spellcasting.

Purify food and drink (Sp) : starting at 6th level the Paladin can use purify food and drink at caster level of ½ their paladin level a number of times each day equal to their paladin level.

Least Aligned Ability (su): also at 7th level the Paladin may choose two abilities from below based on what alignment they are championing(the full description of these can be found at the end). Unless otherwise specified each of these abilities can be used once each hour. The paladin may change what abilities they have choses when they gain a level in paladin. At 8th level they choose two more.


Any:Bane of the Dead, Death Watch,Ghost Foot, Geistmark, Magic Sight, Night Sight.
Chaos:Crowd Blend, Disfunction, Smith’s Touch, Vivid Fog.
Evil:Charm,Ensnare,Saboteur, Vivid Fog.
Good:Bestial Tongue, Charm,Crowd Blend, Healing Touch
Law: Clockwork,Ensnare, Healing Touch, Smith’s Touch

Domain(su): at 7th level the Paladin gains the abilities of one cleric domain and cast cast each spell on that domain spell list that a cleric of their level could cast once per day at caster level equal to their paladin level.

Light(Sp): starting at 8th level the Paladin can cast light at will with caster level equal to their paladin level.


Mending(Sp): starting at 11th level the Paladin can cast mending at will with caster level equal to their paladin level.

Standard Aligned Ability(su):Again at 11th level the Paladin chooses two options from the list below based on their alignment (full description at the end) these can be used once each hour unless otherwise stated.

Any:Divine Flame,Ethereal Messenger, Gust, Limber, Phantasmal Squire, Rescale.
Chaos:Form Shift, Fracture, Mirrored army, Spider’s Web
Evil:Deprive Sense, Keep tabs, Mirrored army, Muten
Good:Commander’s Gift, Fracture, Insulate, Keep Tabs
Law:Commander’s Gift,Freight Disk, Muten, Spider’s Web.

Remove disease(Sp): at 12th level the Paladin can now use Remove Disease 1/day, this is increased to 1/hour at 14th level and at will at 18th level.

Summon Mount(Sp): also at 12th level the paladin can summon their mount at will.

Calm Emotions (Sp): at 13th level the Paladin gains the ability to cast calm emotions at will with caster level equal to their paladin level.

Enhance (Su): Starting at 16th level the Paladin may grant themselves or their mount Flight speed or swim speed Equal to their land speed, or swim speed whichever is higher if the paladin or their mount already has flight speed or swim speed it is instead doubled. The paladin may also grant themselves or their mount the ability to breathe underwater (or air if unable) and exist comfortably underwater ( or air if unable). The paladin can use these abilities at will as an immediate action.

Augury (Sp): starting at 17th level the Paladin can now cast augury 2/day at caster level equal to their paladin level.

Major Aligned ability (su): also at 17th level the Paladin may choose two abilities from below based on what alignment they are championing(the full description of these can be found at the end). Unless otherwise specified each of these abilities can be used once each hour. The paladin may change what abilities they have choses when they gain a level in paladin. At 19th level they choose two more.

Any:Banishment,Bargain, Fade, Ghost,Sight, Linguist, Sway
Chaos:Fog Wall,Mind Twist,Sculpt,Shape Change
Evil:Deathspeech,Mind Twist,Insist, Plague
Good:Barrier, Deathspeech,Fog Wall,Restore
Law:Barrier,Insist,Lodging, Sculpt.





Bane of the Dead: as Detect undead at paladin level, also smite always deals bonus damage to undead equal to the paladin's maximum number of smite attempts per day.

Bestial Tongue: as Speak with animals at paladin level level, also works on magical beasts with Int 3 or more.

Charm: as charm person at paladin level.

Clockwork: as an immediate action the paladin can declare an activity, such as scaling a cliff, or searching for a paper on a desk the next time the paladin would make a roll pertaining to that activity you get a +7 circumstance bonus to that roll.

Crowd Blend: as Disguise Self at paladin level. Can be used once every 30 minutes.

Deathwatch: as Deathwatch at paladin level. Can be used once every 30 minutes.

Dysfunction: one non-magical mechanical device ceases to function in a manner of your choosing for a number of minutes equal to your paladin level (example: if used on a lock that lock can be opened without using a key or is jammed shut).

Ensnare: as Entangle at paladin Level. Can be used once every 30 minutes.

Ghost foot: For a number of minutes equal to the paladin's level they do not need to make a move silently roll to move without making noise.

Geistmark: The paladin can mark a creature they make contact with, for a number of minutes equal to their paladin level they know that creatures exact location.

Healing Touch: a creature the paladin makes contact with regains hit points equal to their paladin level.

Magic Sight: as Detect Magic at paladin level. Can be used once every minute.

Night Sight: The paladin permanently gains darkvision out to 30 ft or if they had darkvision it is instead increased by 30 ft. the paladin does not activate this ability.

Saboteur: Name an activity target creature makes a will save vs the paladin's highest level spell saving throw dc if they fail, they take a -7 penalty on their next roll pertaining to that activity.

Smith’s Touch: as Chill Metal or Heat Metal at paladin level.

Vivid Fog: as Obscuring Mist at paladin level then the paladin may create an illusion as Silent Image anywhere within the radius of this ability.





Commander’s Gift: As Status at paladin level except the paladin may select creatures at long range, also all creatures link this way may cast message at will with one another regardless of distance.

Deprive Sense: As Blindness/Deafen at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Divine Flame: As Create Flame at paladin level except it can also be used to make smite attempts. This ability can be used at will.

Ethereal Messenger: as Whispering Wind at paladin level. Usable every 30 minutes.

Form Shift: as Alter Self at paladin level. Usable every 30 minutes.

Fracture: as Shatter at paladin level. Usable every 30 minutes.

Freight Disk: As Floating disc at paladin level except the maximum weight that can be carried is doubled.

Gust: As Gust of Wind at paladin level. Useable once every 30 minutes.

Insulate: A Creature the paladin touches gains fire, cold, and electricity resistance equal to their paladin level for a number of minutes equal to their paladin level.

Keep Tabs: As Locate Object at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Limber: As Remove Paralysis at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Mirrored Army: As Mirror Image at paladin level, except the maximum distance the illusions can move from the paladin is 30 ft, also they may take actions from the position of any illusion created this way, and they may sense what they would sense if they are where the illusion is.

Muten: As Silence at paladin level except it only affects one creature at a time. Usable once every 20 minutes.

Phantasmal Squire: As unseen servant at paladin level except it has an effective strength score of 6 and can make craft(any) checks as though it had 5 ranks in each craft skill.

Rescale: As Reduce person or Enlarge Person at paladin level except it reduces the target by 2 size categories (minimum Tiny) or enlarges the target by 2 size categories (maximum Huge).

Spider’s Web: As Web at paladin Level. Usable once every 30 minutes.


Banishment: As Dismissal at paladin level. usable once every 30 minutes.

Bargain: As Planar Ally, Lesser at paladin level except the Paladin does not need to pay an xp cost. This can be used once a day.

Barrier: as Resilient sphere at paladin level. Usable every 30 minutes.

Deathspeech: as Speak with Dead at paladin level, except the paladin is able to understand what the creature says and the creature understands what the paladin says as if they are both under Comprehend languages.

Fade: as Invisibility, Greater at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Fog wall: as Solid Fog at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Ghost Sight: The Paladin is permanently under the effect of See Invisibility.

Linguist: The Paladin is permanently under the effect of Comprehend languages and Tongues.

Lodging: as Secure Shelter Except the creatures inside and the hut itself are protected from fire damage from the outside and the inside of the shelter does not need to be heated.

Mind Twist: as Confusion at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Plague: as Contagion at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Restore: as Restoration at paladin level.

Sculpt: as Shape Stone and Shape Wood at paladin level.

Shape Change: As Polymorph at paladin level, Limited to the paladin only. Usable once every 30 minutes.

Sway: as Charm monster at paladin level. Usable once every 30 minutes.

[ThatMoonGuy]

I understand what you're going for with abilities like light, cure disease ant at-will 2nd level spells but those are too late and most of them are not very useful. The level 8 ability just makes the Paladin into a cheap equivalent to an everyburning torch, which is a 110gp magical item. Not exactly what I'd call and incredible ability. Adding a bunch of niche abilities as at-wills at high levels doesn't really solve the problem of the class having no use out of combat. The best ability overall is the domain but it's only once per day and only at 7th level.

I would recommend not assuming that at-will spells are a solution to versatility. This can actually lead to some trouble, like if a Paladin picks Cure Light Wounds as his at-will. Now he can heal the whole party at any moment and given the rest of the 1st level Paladin spells, they'd probably pick that. Now the party is always at full health after every encounter. Is this a bug or a feature?

If I may suggest something, you could take a hint from how Pathfinder does a lot of things and make a list of abilities that are thematic and sort of useful, like the rogue talents (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/) and rage powers (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/). Some of those could be at-will abilities and you could put a level requirement to those but the core of the idea is just making a list of abilities that can be chosen by the player and the splicing those choices on the dead levels. You could do that for a lot of the bad 3.5e classes, really.

Some of the other fixes, like the Casting Ability, Domain and Skill are good, though.

[Bloodcloud]

I looked at a couple of your post, I understand what you are trying to do, but everytime I basically want to say... just do it like 5e did. It's probably the best template to follow. Devolving a 5e devotion paladin would work quite well i think

[Maat Mons]

Instead of eliminating all affiliations with alignments, I think you should follow the lead of some of the later 3.5 champions of alignments. They'd usually say something like "at 1st level, pick Chaos, Good, Evil, or Law" and then you'd be a champion of whatever it was you picked.

You could give "Detect Opposition," which detects whatever alignment is the opposite of the one you champion.

I think you should go in completely the opposite direction with your Smite changes. Keep the alignment dependent part, but make it an always-on ability. You just gain bonuses against creatures of alignments opposed to the one you champion, and you don't have to specifically activate it, nor track uses.

I'd bump the Paladin up to duskblade-style casting.

Since a paladin can't pick up the Touch of Healing reserve feat until 9th level, would you consider giving something in-class to fill the same niche? Heal 1d8 damage (up to half) at 3rd level, plus an extra 1d8 every 3 levels thereafter sticks pretty close to the numbers a Cleric with that reserve feat would have.

Why not just make Remove Disease an at-will ability?

I really don't see how Water Walk fits the class at all.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

I understand what you're going for with abilities like light, cure disease ant at-will 2nd level spells but those are too late and most of them are not very useful. The level 8 ability just makes the Paladin into a cheap equivalent to an everyburning torch, which is a 110gp magical item. Not exactly what I'd call and incredible ability. Adding a bunch of niche abilities as at-wills at high levels doesn't really solve the problem of the class having no use out of combat. The best ability overall is the domain but it's only once per day and only at 7th level.

Hmm yeah that's a good point, I figured giving the paladin enough niche cases where they are useful would add up to be always slightly useful but I guess that's like saying no class has a utility problem because magic items are a thing. someone else in the thread said something that gave me a good idea on how to fix this so I'll probably be going with that.


I would recommend not assuming that at-will spells are a solution to versatility. This can actually lead to some trouble, like if a Paladin picks Cure Light Wounds as his at-will. Now he can heal the whole party at any moment and given the rest of the 1st level Paladin spells, they'd probably pick that. Now the party is always at full health after every encounter. Is this a bug or a feature?

Also a good point, I didn't really think of this because my games usually are more hack and slashy, so at will healing is something the party kinda expects to be a thing, but in a more tense resource based game I would imagine that would get real annoying.



If I may suggest something, you could take a hint from how Pathfinder does a lot of things and make a list of abilities that are thematic and sort of useful, like the rogue talents (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/) and rage powers (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/). Some of those could be at-will abilities and you could put a level requirement to those but the core of the idea is just making a list of abilities that can be chosen by the player and the splicing those choices on the dead levels. You could do that for a lot of the bad 3.5e classes, really.

Thanks I'll give it give it a look and see if I like how it goes about fixing class imbalance.


I looked at a couple of your post, I understand what you are trying to do, but everytime I basically want to say... just do it like 5e did. It's probably the best template to follow. Devolving a 5e devotion paladin would work quite well i think

I'm honestly not a fan of how 5e handles classes when my old group switched over to it I ended up just getting annoyed that mechanically most of my characters just felt too mechanically similar, somehow even my wizard just felt like a worse fighter after they ran out of spell slots.


Instead of eliminating all affiliations with alignments, I think you should follow the lead of some of the later 3.5 champions of alignments. They'd usually say something like "at 1st level, pick Chaos, Good, Evil, or Law" and then you'd be a champion of whatever it was you picked.

I like this idea and I could see it going to cool places I'll definitely use it.



You could give "Detect Opposition," which detects whatever alignment is the opposite of the one you champion.

I think you should go in completely the opposite direction with your Smite changes. Keep the alignment dependent part, but make it an always-on ability. You just gain bonuses against creatures of alignments opposed to the one you champion, and you don't have to specifically activate it, nor track uses.

Honestly the Paladin being so obsessed with other's alignment honest kinda just always made me annoyed whenever someone rolled one up (usually because I was DM) and the DM always had to go out of their way to make the paladin feel like a contributing member of the party or the paladin would have to min max and become a fighter 60% of the time.


I'd bump the Paladin up to duskblade-style casting.

I think they'll be fine without it personally.


Since a paladin can't pick up the Touch of Healing reserve feat until 9th level, would you consider giving something in-class to fill the same niche? Heal 1d8 damage (up to half) at 3rd level, plus an extra 1d8 every 3 levels thereafter sticks pretty close to the numbers a Cleric with that reserve feat would have.

That is something I'll definitely consider although I'll probably make it a little more flexible if I do.


Why not just make Remove Disease an at-will ability?

that is an excellent question, and as such I will avoid answering it and instead update the class to make it a statement.


I really don't see how Water Walk fits the class at all.

Because Jesus, and the class needed some kind of mobility boost and nothing else fit so like that's what I went with.

[Morphic tide]

The class needed a mobility boost? They have a special mount. And a class level times Charisma modifier healing pool. Why, exactly, can't they be made a damn good mounted combatant of whatever variety of mount is necessary off the back of that? Why not just give them a Pegasus, or some other mount with Flight, or a burrow speed if that's more your style?

As for having Alignment picking, I'd rather have it be more akin to the Specialist Wizard for Codes of Conduct, where you pick a restriction and get benefits for doing so. Maybe have two choices, one predominantly for the Good/Evil axis and the other for the Law/Chaos axis, but with some non-Alignment-specific exceptions that give options for Druidic-styled Paladins, crafting-focused super-Knights and other such things that aren't locked to Alignment, but have largely overlapping themes with the Alignment axes.

The option list thing also has already been done by Pathfinder with the Mercies as broadened Lay on Hands applications, pretty much singularly in the form of condition removal in replacement of the arsenal of spells for handling that mess. They're always-on riders, though, which makes the Injured Mercy pretty much an auto-pick for being Fast Healing 3 for a significant number of rounds. Of course, this works the way it does because Lay on Hands was made uses-per-day rather than a pool of healing, but the principal of taking the healing feature and having an option list that gives it the various condition removal properties to keep doing the healing needs still applies.

[ThatMoonGuy]

The class needed a mobility boost? They have a special mount. And a class level times Charisma modifier healing pool. Why, exactly, can't they be made a damn good mounted combatant of whatever variety of mount is necessary off the back of that? Why not just give them a Pegasus, or some other mount with Flight, or a burrow speed if that's more your style?

As a lover of mounted combat, I can't say that having a mount equals good mobility. A lot of time you won't be able to use a mount because you're either in a forest, a cave or dungeon, none of which are spaces where you tipically can make good use of a mount. Were we talking about open field combat, I'd completely agree with you but mobility in D&D usually means mobility within a dungeon and a horse often does not help with that.



Also a good point, I didn't really think of this because my games usually are more hack and slashy, so at will healing is something the party kinda expects to be a thing, but in a more tense resource based game I would imagine that would get real annoying.

Then that's fine. Some people may think that's too strong but I usually side with you that unlimited healing outside of combat isn't an issue.




I'm honestly not a fan of how 5e handles classes when my old group switched over to it I ended up just getting annoyed that mechanically most of my characters just felt too mechanically similar, somehow even my wizard just felt like a worse fighter after they ran out of spell slots.

I'd argue that this is less an issue of how classes are structured and more an issue of how the system is structured. Because 5e effectively removed feats as a strong concept and uses a bound accuracy model for dice, there's very little variance overall. Effectively speaking, 5e 1-20 is like 3.5e 1-6. The concept of Subclasses/Paragon Paths is not bad in itself, it's sorta like an obligatory Archetype/Prestige Class... with very small benefits... which come very slowly...

Urgh... boy, do I hate 5e.





Because Jesus, and the class needed some kind of mobility boost and nothing else fit so like that's what I went with.

Being able to waterwalk is a bit too niche and likely to be irrelevant barring some specific cases. Unless you're fighting next to a river/lake with enemies on both sides or against a water monster, you're not getting much of this feature if you're a melee Paladin. A ranged paladin could do some interesting things with that but, again, it's very niche. I agree that Paladin mobility is bad, however. I'm just not really sure if this particular feature fix that.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

Changelog

-Change the way alignment works

-Added aligned abilities

-Added Enhance

-Removed water walking

-Removed Chosen

[yarrowdeathbloo]

I'd argue that this is less an issue of how classes are structured and more an issue of how the system is structured. Because 5e effectively removed feats as a strong concept and uses a bound accuracy model for dice, there's very little variance overall. Effectively speaking, 5e 1-20 is like 3.5e 1-6. The concept of Subclasses/Paragon Paths is not bad in itself, it's sorta like an obligatory Archetype/Prestige Class... with very small benefits... which come very slowly...

Urgh... boy, do I hate 5e.


Honestly I wouldn't Mind 5e as much if every class picked their subclass at first level and there was a little bit more choice at first level and subclasses made more changes than classes but as is it just feels like outside of the very minimal tweaks sublcasses plus race makes two characters of the same or similar class will just feel basically the same.

[Anymage]

Evil paladins getting abilities that purify and bring light strikes me as off brand. Paladins should be champions of righteousness, with antipaladins being their own thing. Various other alignment exemplars should similarly not all be shoved into the same class, since at that point you're either blanding down the overall class or else creating multiple alternate feature paths and then forcing them all onto the same chassis.

If you want to bring paladins up, they already have spellcasting. That counts for a lot. In fact, while a list of SLAs looks cooler on paper, just putting all those spells on the paladin spell list is more effective in practice. Being able to adjust your powers day to day counts for a lot.

The Code must go, because that and tradition mean that the paladin's class features were at risk in a way no other class is. (Try to remember the last time you saw a cleric losing their spells or a barbarian losing their ability to rage even discussed, compared to the focus on paladins falling.) Honestly, just stripping that restriction probably bumps them up a bit on its own. What that means in the fiction is up to you; maybe investing the paladin with powers is a one-time event that can't be revoked even if the character later falls from grace, maybe falling is technically possible but should only happen to a PC with active player buy-in

(If I felt like putting in tons of time and D&D were a very different game, I'd make the code a source of power rather than a source of weakness. You get cool stuff points for sticking to your code, you can spend the points to activate holy powers, and the only "punishment" for not following the code is not getting the points that you otherwise would. That would be a massive undertaking to test and balance, though.)

Honestly, cribbing slightly from 5e should work properly here. Make falling no longer be a thing. Make oaths with a few specific features, and let each one expand the paladin spell list in certain ways. Bump up to 4+int skill points because 2+int wound up being too conservative for most classes, and you should have a good start for a midtier paladin.