Token for Swift/Immediate actions

[heavyfuel]

People in my group (myself included) have a problem with Swift/Immediate actions. We always forget when we last used the immediate action and this always causes confusion.

My solution for this is to give everyone a Swift/Immediate Action Token. It works like this:
- You can only use Swift/Immediate actions if the Token is facing up;
- You start with the Token facing up (you can't act before your initiative, but some actions - eg: Nerveskitter - allow it)
- Upon using either action, put the Token facing down;
- At the end of your turn, put the Token facing up again.


Crusader and Cleric vs Demon
- Demon wins Initiative and charges the Cleric;
- Crusader wants to use Shield Block, but hasn't acted. So even with the Token facing up, he can't.;
- Crusader is second. He enters a new stance by flipping down the token, then full-attacks. He passes his turn and flips the token back up;
- Cleric is third and only heals himself;
- Demon attacks the Cleric again;
- Now the Crusader's token in facing up, so he uses Shield Block and flips the token down. The Demon attack misses;
- Crusader's turn again, his Token is still facing down. He full-attacks again, and the Demon is somewhat hurt. Thinking the Demon might want to escape, he wishes to change his stance to Thicket of Blades, but can't. He passes, flipping the Token back up;
- Cleric casts a blasting spell and passes;
- Demon is badly hurt and withdraws;
- Combat over.

This is how Swift/Immediate action interact, right? Could someone check my logic with the token?

Thanks!

[gkathellar]

That sounds accurate, and seems like a clever way of managing it.

[Doctor Awkward]

We used a similar solution that involved a poker chip with our character's name written on a piece of tape. Whenever we used an immediate action, we would hand the chip to the DM. He would then hand it back to us at the end of the player's next turn. If you don't have your poker chip, you cannot use swift or immediate actions.

[heavyfuel]

That sounds accurate, and seems like a clever way of managing it.

Cool! Thanks!


We used a similar solution that involved a poker chip with our character's name written on a piece of tape. Whenever we used an immediate action, we would hand the chip to the DM. He would then hand it back to us at the end of the player's next turn. If you don't have your poker chip, you cannot use swift or immediate actions.

Interesting idea giving it to the DM. I don't think either DM in my group will be up for the hustle of having this extra job though hahahaha

[Doctor Awkward]

Interesting idea giving it to the DM. I don't think either DM in my group will be up for the hustle of having this extra job though hahahaha

For us it generally turned into a cooperative effort. In the event the DM forgets to hand the chip over we are usually quick to ask for it.

[Mike Miller]

You are close. However, you get 1 swift/immediate action per round. That is, 1 swift/immediate action for each set of all people acting. You wouldn't flip your token up at the end of the turn you used it, because that would enable two swift/immediate actions in one round. You need to keep it face down until the same point in the initiative order returns.

Does that make sense?

[Particle_Man]

Actually I think the OP has it right because he is flipping the token back over at the end of their turn, which *is* the end of their point in the initiative count. If they used an immediate action when it is not their turn, they would not get to flip the token back up until their turn comes around again. That is, they would not flip the token up at the end of the out of turn immediate action precisely because it is not their turn yet, much less the end of their turn.

It may seem like taking a swift action during your turn, flipping the token up, and taking an immediate action after your turn is getting two actions in a row, but since the reset point is the end of your turn (which is the end of your initiative count) you are not really. Taking that immediate action out of turn means no swift action during your turn.

That said, there are maneuvers like white raven tactics (which moves someone’s initiative count, effectively giving them either an early turn or an extra turn) and stances like stance of alacrity (allowing one to use “counters” for free once per round without using an immediate action to do so) which can complicate matters.

[heavyfuel]

You are close. However, you get 1 swift/immediate action per round. That is, 1 swift/immediate action for each set of all people acting. You wouldn't flip your token up at the end of the turn you used it, because that would enable two swift/immediate actions in one round. You need to keep it face down until the same point in the initiative order returns.

Does that make sense?

To answer your question... Not really.

You wouldn't be able to use 2 swift actions (abbreviated SA) in the round:
- You start the round with the token facing up;
- You use the SA and flip it down;
- You pass and flip it up again;
- Now you can't use a SA again, because they can only happen on your turn. So you have to wait. You can still use your Immediate action, though.

You would be able to use 2 immediate actions (abbreviated IA), but that's allowed by the rules:

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.

So you can use and IA on your turn (which is just like a SA), flip down, pass, flip back up, use another IA, and flip it down.

When your next turn arrives, you can use neither an IA nor a SA, since your token is still facing down

[Elkad]

We used a similar solution that involved a poker chip with our character's name written on a piece of tape. Whenever we used an immediate action, we would hand the chip to the DM. He would then hand it back to us at the end of the player's next turn. If you don't have your poker chip, you cannot use swift or immediate actions.

I use this method as well. Use a swift/immediate, you hand me the token. When you say "I'm done with my turn" I hand it back.

[Psyren]

- Upon using either action, put the Token facing down;
- At the end of your turn, put the Token facing up again.

Yeah this should work correctly. The end of turn trigger for refreshing the token means that they can do an immediate after using their swift (as intended) but also means that they can't use the next turn's swift if they used their immediate (also as intended.)

[Mike Miller]

If that is how you want to take a round to be, that is fine. It shouldn't be an issue, really. I don't agree that you could use a swift on your turn and then an immediate action on the bad guys's turn following your turn, though.

I don't think you should be flipping the token when your turn ends. You should flip it when you reach the point in the initiative order that you previously used it. This may or may not coincide with your turn, depending on when it was used.

[Particle_Man]

If that is how you want to take a round to be, that is fine. It shouldn't be an issue, really. I don't agree that you could use a swift on your turn and then an immediate action on the bad guys's turn following your turn, though.

I don't think you should be flipping the token when your turn ends. You should flip it when you reach the point in the initiative order that you previously used it. This may or may not coincide with your turn, depending on when it was used.

Your view diverges from RAW. If you use an immediate action, you are using up the “next” swift action, not the “last” one. This it is rules legal to use a swift action on your turn followed by an immediate action on the bad guy’s turn. You just can’t do it the other way around. The reset point is at the end of your turn. The OP is correct by RAW.

[Elkad]

Yup. You don't even have to wait for the badguy to start his turn. You can use the Immediate action as soon as your turn ends.

Which means you could move, cast, swift cast, and immediate cast all in succession.

[Mike Miller]

I believe I've read this before, but it has been so long I've forgotten. Where is this explained? I do understand now, I just feel like rereading it for a better memory of it.

(Also, I don't like the RAW version. I think it is silly that you can use an immediate action right after you have ended your turn when you used a swift. Meh)

[Particle_Man]

Yup. You don't even have to wait for the badguy to start his turn. You can use the Immediate action as soon as your turn ends.

Which means you could move, cast, swift cast, and immediate cast all in succession.

Now if there is a way to also move cast, we are in business! :smallsmile:

Oh, and among other places swift and immediate actions are explained in the book of nine swords. Which has a couple of move maneuvers, come to think of it.

[Elkad]

I believe I've read this before, but it has been so long I've forgotten. Where is this explained? I do understand now, I just feel like rereading it for a better memory of it.

(Also, I don't like the RAW version. I think it is silly that you can use an immediate action right after you have ended your turn when you used a swift. Meh)

You are still going into Swift debt. Yeah, you get to pull an action up earlier in the combat, but getting it anywhere other than at the end of your turn doesn't make any sense.
You'd have to forfeit your Swifts every turn on the off chance that you might need your Immediate to counter something on the enemy's turn. (if you didn't get them at the end of your turn)

[Doctor Awkward]

I believe I've read this before, but it has been so long I've forgotten. Where is this explained? I do understand now, I just feel like rereading it for a better memory of it.

The Swift action was first introduced in the The Miniatures Handbook (October 2003). The immediate action was first introduced in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (April 2004).

So far as I know, they were next codified in Races of Stone, and then in Weapon's of Legacy, and other sources which made extensive use of them like Tome of Battle and Player's Handbook II.

[Psyren]

Doctor Awkward is correct, and to build on his answer - If you're looking for a more "general" source explaining how Swift and Immediate actions work, see Rules Compendium pg. 7. There's even a brief sidebar discussing their thought process for creating them that mentions the sources he covered.

[Kris Moonhand]

If you wanted rules text, here it is:

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. Emphasis mine.