Sorcerer Revision (spell points and origin spells) [Archive]

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Grod_The_Giant

2019-07-05, 04:05 PM

Mith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23391533&postcount=12) once remarked that they thought the Charisma-based casters should be weird, with unique mechanics that don't quite match up to other classes. I keep coming back to that, and I find that I generally agree-- if nothing else, because I like having unique mechanics to play around with in my game. I've already done a Warlock variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign&p=23391533&viewfull=1) that gives up spellcasting in favor of relying solely on Invocations; now I thought I'd do something with the Sorcerer.

Many of us would agree that the Sorcerer doesn't know enough spells. 15 total might be the same as the Warlock, but Metamagic doesn't match the power or utility of Invocations. At one point WotC was experimenting with having Sorcerous Origins grant bonus spells known. That didn't last, but I find the idea much more interesting than simply increasing the progression.
The Sorcerer is practically made for spell points. It's a common houserule, and I mean... just look at it. It looks to me like Sorcery Points are the remnants of a spell point system that was stripped out at a fairly late stage. That said, we have seen one spell point based full caster in the Mystic, and that's more than enough to show us that if we want to do that, we need to be careful about letting them dump all their points into one encounter. So... why not borrow a page from the class that does successfully balance "blowing your whole load on a few max-level spells," the Warlock? We can give the Sorcerer a third of the spell points they ought to get, but let them regenerate on a short rest? That way you can have the tactical flexibility of spell points without letting players dump their entire daily arsenal in one encounter.

Sorcerer
Except as noted below, the Sorcerer functions as normal.
Spellcasting
Instead of gaining spell slots, Sorcerers instead gain a pool of spell points, equal to two and a half times their level, rounded down. You expend a number of spell points to create a spell slot of a given level, and then use that slot to cast a spell. You can't reduce your spell point total to less than 0, and you regain all spent spell points when you finish a short rest.

Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher, but once you have done so you cannot create another slot of 6th level of higher until you finish a short or long rest.

Your level determines the maximum-level spell slot you can create. Even though you might have enough points to create a slot above this maximum, you can't do so. The cost of each slot level, and the Sorcerer level required to create slots of that level, are as follows:

Spell Level
Point Cost
Minimum Level

1st
2
1st

2nd
3
3rd

3rd
5
5th

4th
6
7th

5th
7
9th

6th
9
11th

7th
10
13th

8th
11
15th

9th
13
17th

Sorcerous Origin
Sorcerers gain one additional ability from their Origin at 3rd level. In addition, your origin grants you one additional spell known at level 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. These spells count as sorcerer spells for you and don't count against the number of spells you know.

Font of Magic
Sorcerers no longer gain this feature

Metamagic
You learn two Metamagic options at 2nd level, and another at 10th and 17th.You spend spell points instead of sorcery points to use them.

Sorcerous Restoration
At 20th level, you regain 5 spell points whenever you roll initiative.

Sorcerous Origins function normally, save that any effects that normally require sorcery points instead require an equal number of spell points.

Draconic Bloodline

Origin Spells

1st: Absorb Elements
3rd: Dragon's Breath
5th: Protection from Energy
7th: Elemental Bane
9th: Dominate Person

Killing Breath
At 3rd level, you gain a unique Metamagic option: Killing Breath. When you cast Dragon's Breath targeting yourself and choose the energy type associated with your draconic ancestry, you may spend 2 sorcery points to remove the need to concentrate on the spell.

Divine Soul

Origin Spells

1st: Bless
3rd: Spiritual Weapon
5th: Spirit Guardians
7th: Guardian of Faith
9th: Commune

Sanctify Spell
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Sanctify Spell. When you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you may spend 1 sorcery point to have it deal radiant damage (if good) or necrotic damage (if evil). If you are neutral, choose either radiant or necrotic when you gain this option.

Shadow Magic

Origin Spells

1st: Dissonant Whispers
3rd: Blindness/Deafness
5th: Hunger of Hadar
7th: Shadow of Moil
9th: Antilife Shell

Shadow Magic
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Shadow Magic. When you cast a spell, you may spend 2 spell point to draw upon the Shadow Weave when shaping its magic. Your spell ignores antimagic fields and magic resistance.

Storm Sorcery

Origin Spells

1st: Create or Destroy Water
3rd: Shatter
5th: Tidal Wave
7th: Storm Sphere
9th: Control Winds

Thundering Spell
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Thundering Spell. When you cast a spell that deals thunder or lightning damage, you may spend 1 or more sorcery points to cause any creature affected to be pushed 5ft per point spent, to a maximum number of points equal to your charisma modifier.

Wild Magic

Origin Spells

1st: Chaos Bolt
3rd: Crown of Madness
5th: Hypnotic Pattern
7th: Confusion
9th: Synaptic Static

Chaos Magic
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Chaos Magic. When you cast a spell that deals damage, you may spend 1 sorcery point to randomize the damage type. Roll 1d8; the number rolled determines the attack's damage type as shown below.

Acid
Cold
Fire
Force
Lightning
Poison
Psychic
Thunder

Note: Because these are just draft subclasses, I've had to tweak them a bit more to fit.

Giant Soul

Origin Spells

1st: Varies
3rd: Varies
5th: Erupting Earth
7th: Stoneskin
9th: Bigby's Hand

Mark of the Ordning: Your specific giant heritage determines which spells you learn at 1st and 3rd levels.

Siphon Size
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Siphon Size. When you cast a spell with a duration of Concentration and targeting yourself, you may spend 3 spell points to also cast Enlarge/Reduce on yourself. If you do, you may only select the Enlarge option, but the duration becomes the same as the base spell, and you may concentrate on both simultaneously. If you fail a concentration save, you lose concentration on both spells.

Phoenix Sorcery/Pyromancy

Origin Spells

1st: Burning Hands
3rd: Pyrotechnics
5th: Fireball
7th: Fire Shield
9th: Flame Strike

Burning Spell
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Burning Spell. When casting a spell with a duration of concentration and targeting yourself, you may spend 3 sorcery points to gain the benefits of your Mantle of Flame for the duration of that spell.

Sea Sorcery

Origin Spells

1st: Create or Destroy Water
3rd: Water Walk
5th: Wall of Water
7th: Control Water
9th: Maelstrom

Aquatic Spell
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Aquatic Spell. If you cast a spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects while standing in at least one foot of water, you may spend 2 spell points to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw against the spell.

Stone Sorcery

Origin Spells

1st: Earth Tremor
3rd: Earthbind
5th: Erupting Earth
7th: Stoneskin
9th: Transmute Rock

Metal Magic
You do not gain the Metal Magic feature.

Rooted Spell
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Rooted Spell. When you cast a spell that requires concentration, you may spend 2 spell points. For the duration of the spell, you automatically succeed on all concentration checks to maintain that spell. However, if you move more than 5ft, your concentration is instantly broken.

Fairie Sorcery

Origin Spells

1st: Charm Person
3rd: Invisibility
5th: Hypnotic Pattern
7th: Hallucinatory Terrain
9th: Dream

Subtle Spell
At third level, you gain the Subtle Spell metamagic option. If you already possessed it, you may choose a different option insteead.

Fiendish Origin

Origin Spells

1st: Hellish Rebuke
3rd: Ray of Enfeeblement
5th: Summon Lesser Demons
7th: Summon Greater Demon
9th: Infernal Calling

Fiendish Magic: You learn the Thaumaturgy and Toll the Dead cantrips, but you do not otherwise expand your spell list.

Corrupt Spell
At third level, you gain a unique metamagic option: Corrupt Spell. When you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you may spend 1 sorcery point to have it deal necrotic damage.

Titan Blooded

Origin Spells

1st: Thunderwave
3rd: Enlarge/Reduce
5th: Water Breathing
7th: Staggering Smite
9th: Dispel Evil and Good

Battle Spell
At 3rd level you gain a unique metamagic option: Battle Spell. When you cast a spell with a duration of concentration, you may spend two spell points. You gain a bonus on saves to concentrate on that spell equal to your Charisma modifier.

Rukelnikov

2019-07-05, 04:17 PM

Doug Lampert

2019-07-05, 04:35 PM

So, assuming I understood correctly, this would mean:

lvl 1: 1 1st lvl slot
lvl 2: 2 1st lvl slots (+1 Point)
lvl 3: 2 2nd (+1 Point)
lvl 4: 3 2nd (+1 Point)
lvl 5: 2 3rd + 1 1st
lvl 6: 3 3rd
lvl 7: 2 4th + 1 3rd
lvl 8: 3 4th + 1 1st
lvl 9: 3 5th lvl + 1 1st

Up until here it seems a lil bit OP compared to a Lock, since the Sorc not only has more spells about half the time, but also because he can break them down for more utility stuff.

Later lvls, I must say, its completely broken, Wish/SR is too much.

The Lock gets invocations to carry part of the load. Spell points are really good, but making them short rest solves a lot of the problems. And note that the sorcerer's other class feature (metamagic) competes for his spell points, I'm not at all sure this option is really overpowered at the lower levels.

Also, the 5th edition wish is nice but rather limited, other than simulacrum what makes it broken to have 1 wish as your only level 6+ spell per short rest? I could certainly see a special limit to at most one level 9 spell per day given that many of the 9s are insane, but I'm not sure it's necessary and I don't see wish as necessarily the problem child.

Bjarkmundur

2019-07-05, 07:36 PM

I loved your warlock, and now I'm torn between your sorcerer and Kane0's revision. Can we maybe get a comparison between the two, to help us pick which one of them we'd rather allow in our games?

Grod_The_Giant

2019-07-06, 10:18 AM

Doug Lampert

2019-07-06, 11:14 AM

Hmm. The 1/short rest limit seemed better than mixing short and long rest resources in spellcasting, but... hmm. Three 8th level slots are better than one 6th, 7th, and 8th. To say nothing of three 6th level slots at level 11... Let me see if I can come up with a different graceful limit.

Bjarkmundur-- do you have a link?
I wouldn't worry about that. Assuming 3 rests, as you do above: At tenth level (for instance) you're getting 9 level 5 spells instead of 2 (and have 4 points to spare per short rest). That's a basic feature of spell-point systems, you can trade up to get more high level spells and/or you can massively spam your low level spells like shield.

9 spells instead of 2 is a greater discrepancy than 3 level 8 spells instead of 1 each at 6, 7, and 8. If the first doesn't bother you, I'm not sure that the second should.

Spell points, in general, make casters much stronger. A level 10 sorcerer needs only 74 points to completely duplicate everything a sorcerer 10 could do, 64 for the spells and 10 for the metamagic; so you're giving him the flexibility of spell-points for the cost of being short-rest dependent. If you think that trade is too good, then give a bit less in spell-points (maybe 2xlevel).

Requiem&m

2019-07-06, 11:47 AM

I like this idea, hope you don't mind, I've used this to influence one of my own for a Telekinetic Sorcerer;

Telekinetic Sorcerer
Origin Spells;
1st - Catapult
2nd - Levitate
3rd - Fly
4th - Control Water
5th - Telekinesis

Telekinetic Thrust - At third level, whenever you cast an Origin spell, or start your turn concentrating on an Origin spell, until the start of your next turn you can treat any melee weapon you are equipped with to have the Thrown (20/60ft) Properties, and can use your Casting Stat Modifier. If the weapon already has the Thrown property, you do not suffer disadvantage for long distance attacks. If you hit with this attack, you can expend a number of Spell Points (maximum equal to your Proficiency Bonus) to add +1d6 damage to the damage roll.

Bjarkmundur

2019-07-06, 12:36 PM

Yeah, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555697-Houserules-and-homebrew)
I'm just not familiar enough with the sorcerer to see how the differences will affect the gameplay :/

Level
Prof Bonus
Class Features
Cantrips
Spells Known
Spell Level
Sorcery Points

1
+2
Sorcerous Spellcasting, Sorcerous Origin
4
3
1st
4

2
+2
Metamagic (2)
4
4
1st
6

3
+2
-
4
5
2nd
14

4
+2
Ability Score Improvement
5
6
2nd
17

5
+3
Metamagic (3)
5
7
3rd
27

6
+3
Sorcerous Origin Feature
5
8
3rd
32

7
+3
-
5
9
4th
38

8
+3
Ability Score Improvement
5
10
4th
44

9
+4
Metamagic (4)
5
11
5th
57

10
+4
Spontaneous Sorcery
6
12
5th
64

11
+4
-
6
13
6th
73

12
+4
Ability Score Improvement
6
13
6th
73

13
+5
Metamagic (5)
6
14
7th
83

14
+5
Sorcerous Origin Feature
6
14
7th
83

15
+5
-
6
15
8th
94

16
+5
Ability Score Improvement
6
15
8th
94

17
+6
Metamagic (6)
6
16
9th
107

18
+6
Sorcerous Origin Feature
6
16
9th
114

19
+6
Ability Score Improvement
6
17
9th
123

20
+6
Sorcerous Mastery
6
18
9th
133

Hit Die: 1d6
Armor Proficiencies: None
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple weapons
Save Proficiencies: Constitution and Charisma
Skill Proficiencies: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion and Religion.

Level 1: Sorcerous Spellcasting:
- Charisma based with Spells Known as shown on the table (can swap one per level)
- No Ritual Casting
- Use the spell point variant from DMG, refreshing on a long rest and not being able to cast more than one 6th/7th/8th/9th spell per day as normal. These are called Sorcery Points and are also used to fuel metamagic
- When you finish a short rest you recover a number of spent Sorcery Points equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1)

1st: 2
2nd: 3
3rd: 5
4th: 6
5th: 7
6th: 9
7th: 10
8th: 11
9th: 13

Level 1: Sorcerous Origin:
As per PHB or other sources

Level 2: Metamagic:
Start with two as per the PHB. You can choose an metamagic option at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17 for a total of six metamagic options known.
Shout out for some excellent additional metamagic options here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474296-Metamagic-Options-(PEACH)).
Using metamagic is restricted to sorcerer spells only as the cost of adding a metamagic option is bundled into the Sorcery Point cost of the spell.

Accurate Spell
When you cast a spell which requires an attack roll, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain advantage on the first attack roll made when the spell is cast.

Careful Spell:
When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can spend 2 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum one) to be unaffected by the spell.

Concussive Spell:
When you cast a spell that deals damage, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change that spell's damage type to Force damage, and if the spell reduces a creature to 0 Hit Points you can choose to knock the creature unconscious instead of dealing lethal damage.

Dazing Spell
When you cast a spell that deals damage, you can spend 2 sorcery points to daze one creature damaged by your spell. Attack rolls against this creature are made at advantage until the start of your next turn.

Distant Spell
When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell.
When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 1 sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet.
You can use Distant Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

Elemental Spell:
When you cast a spell that deals Acid, Fire, Cold or Lightning damage, you can spend 1 sorcery point change the damage type to another one of the named types.
You can use Elemental Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

Empower Spell
When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls.
You can use Empower Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

Enlarge Spell
When you cast a spell with an area of effect, you can spend 2 sorcery points to double that area.

Extend Spell
When a spell you cast with a duration of 1 minute or longer expires, you can spend 1 sorcery point to renew its duration (to a maximum of 24 hours).

Heightened Spell
When you cast a spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects, you can spend 3 sorcery points to give one target of the spell disadvantage on all saving throws made against the spell

Quickened Spell
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for that casting

Secure Spell
When you cast a spell you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to make that casting of the spell immune to Counterspell, Dispel Magic and Remove Curse as well as gain advantage on any saving throws to maintain concentration on that spell.

Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components

Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip)

Versatile Spell
When you cast a spell that allows a saving throw, you can spend a number of Sorcery Points equal to double the spell’s level to change the type of saving throw required to another kind.

Level 10: Spontaneous Sorcery:
You have uncanny magical talent, able to pull together just the spell you need when you need it. When you cast a spell you can choose to cast any spell of a level you can cast drawn from any list, as if it were one of your spells known. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Level 20: Sorcerous Mastery:
After using your Spontaneous Sorcery ability you can do so again after finishing a short or long rest.

Grod_The_Giant

2019-07-06, 01:34 PM

That's also a fine Sorcerer upgrade. I think we're giving fairly comperable power/versatility boosts. The difference is mostly one of philosophy: use mine if you want subclasses to be a bit more prominent, and Kane0's if you prefer a more generic Sorcerer

Bjarkmundur

2019-07-06, 07:40 PM