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Cyclops08
2019-07-06, 10:48 AM
The Book of Ancient Secrets is listed in the invocations.
My pact magic comes at 3rd level but I don't get a new invocation until 6th.

I was looking seriously at the Mask of Many Faces incantation (My background is going to be a performer/actor). But I have to give that up after one level to get the ritual spell versatility I want.

Is the pact worth it considering there may be wizards/clerics in the party already?

The more I look at a warlock the more difficult it looks to play. I can see why so many people multi class out.

Still, I want to single class a warlock blaster Cause I really really want that thrall feature at 14th level.

Millstone85
2019-07-06, 11:04 AM
I really really want that thrall feature at 14th level.Ouch! Will your DM rework the feature so it is even remotely deserving of the name Create Thrall? Because, as written, it mostly lets someone tell you "No way, why would I do that?" from a distance.

Xihirli
2019-07-06, 11:05 AM
If you have other ritual casters, Chainlock might be better. Ask your DM if you can reflavor an Imp as a Gazer or other aberrant creature.
I also think it’s important to ask, what do you think Create Thrall will do?

Cyclops08
2019-07-06, 11:18 AM
I also think it’s important to ask, what do you think Create Thrall will do?
It is supposed to make a Mindslave...
Pact of the chain is interesting.

Requiem&m
2019-07-06, 11:29 AM
The Pact of the Tome provides you with 3 Cantrips. Assuming you're Eldritch Blast, this means that your remaining choice of Cantrips not already on the Warlock, Wizard or Cleric list are;
- Druidcraft (largely fluff spell)
- Primal Savagery (melee spell attack doing Eldritch Blast damage without the EB riders)
- Produce Flame (worse ranged spell attack than Eldritch Blast, only really useable with Spell Sniper feat and when you don't have Darkvision)
- Shillelagh (see Primal Savagery, but worse)
- Thorn Whip (30ft Melee Spell Attack is a neat, unique thing, but low damage, and pulling the creature closer to you is not good)
- Vicious Mockery (Psychic Damage, but very low. Potentially useful at low levels against low Attack Bonus, single attack creatures, but no utility)

If you were to take Cleric Cantrips;
- Guidance - it's okay. Skill checks are always good, but it requires you to speak, make hand gestures, which some might find wierd, and takes concentration. Few people complain about 2* Guidance in a party though. It's pseudo Proficiency after all
- Resistance - taking your action to add +d4 to a single nearby creature is not good. Can be helpful in ambush scenarios if your DM allows you to assume you've traded your concentration for an always on +4 to saves.
- Sacred Flame - Dex Save, ignores cover Radiant Damage is okay.
- Spare the Dying - no dying character will be upset at autopassing a death save, but it doesn't do anything about being unconcious
- Thaumaturgy, (Fluff)
- Word of Radiance (take Sacred Flame, and make it worse)

Wizard
- Acid Splash (bad blasty spell)
- Control Flames (largely fluff)
- Dancing Lights (fancy torch)
- Encode Thoughts (this is basically one of the few times Book of Shadows is worthwhile here - Detect Thoughts, Thrall, and the ability to have those thoughts as easily accessible thought streams is nice. However, this is a spell which basically means you need solid notetaking)
- Fire Bolt (trades EB's flatter bell curve of damage for a chance at striking a vulnerability and spikier crits, at the expense of common resistance, and higher chance of no damage. Also, less interaction with Hex, which helps pad out the flatter damage curve)
- Gust (largely fluff)
- Message (unless you're a Subtle Spell Sorcerer, you still need to make Verbal Components which can be audible, meaning that it's utility as a secret message is pointless other than not letting other creatures know exactly what was said. Having a uncommon shared language can replicate that)
- Mold Earth (easy shovel and caltrops - if you think that digging in loose stone at a very high speed is required, maybe useful, but actual caltrops and a shovel can replicate that)
- Ray of Frost (it's rider effect can be replicated by the multiple 10' knockback on Eldritch Blast eventually. Cold Damage is less resisted than fire, but weaker damage)
- Shape Water (basically fluff, despite what people say. Can be useful if you have time to prepare and make an ice barricade to hide behind for +2AC vs Ranged Attacks)
- Shocking Grasp (have a chance of failing a disengage maneuvre for minor lightning damage? Pass)

The damage spells, melee or ranged, are largely outclassed by Eldritch Blast. The Fluff spells are just that, fluff, and add little other than flair to a character, adding some very minor utility. Only worthwhile ones I can see are Spare the Dying, Encode Thoughts, and Guidance/Resistance, depending on whether your DM wants to enforce Exhaustion for casting a cantrip(s) multiple times/minute (in my opinion, slightly unfair, given it costs concentration, and permanent character build resources).

I think you're reasonable safe avoiding Book of Secrets. Just because it's something that's gated behind a specific Pact Boon doesn't mean you need to take it :).

Matrix_Walker
2019-07-06, 11:36 AM
Still, I want to single class a warlock blaster Cause I really really want that thrall feature at 14th level.

You should definitely take the invocations that speak to your play style for the character.

That said, Create Thrall is a really lackluster ability. The 'charmed' condition just means they cannot directly act against you and give you advantage on CHA skills.

Advantage improves your (existing) odds of success but does not produce an outcome that was not possible without it. There is no DC you can hit with advantage that you couldn't make without it.

Unless you homebrew it into something more effective, it's pretty useless IMO. If they wanted to give you a Renfield, they should have included something to make the thrall more subservient or worshiping of the Master, but as written it's usefulness is ridiculously situational. It is the worst published level 14 ability for the Warlock.
(of course, other than the possible exception of Beguiling Defenses, I feel that way about all of the Archfey's subclass features. 1 turn of charm or fright? A defense that helps you only after you've taken damage? Ugh.)

Xihirli
2019-07-06, 11:52 AM
It is supposed to make a Mindslave...
Pact of the chain is interesting.

It may well have been supposed to make a mindslave, but that isn't what it does I'm afraid. I'd talk to your DM about adding the text:
"while charmed in this manner, you can use this telepathic link to issue commands to the creature while you are conscious (no action required), which it does its best to obey. You can specify a simple and general course of action, such as “Attack that creature”, “Run over there”, or “Fetch that object”. If the creature completes the order and doesn’t receive further direction from you, it defends and preserves itself to the best of its ability."

Otherwise it's really not worth a 14 level wait for an objectively weaker version of the Necromancer's capstone.

Tanarii
2019-07-06, 01:49 PM
- Message (unless you're a Subtle Spell Sorcerer, you still need to make Verbal Components which can be audible, meaning that it's utility as a secret message is pointless other than not letting other creatures know exactly what was said. Having a uncommon shared language can replicate that)

- Shocking Grasp (have a chance of failing a disengage maneuvre for minor lightning damage? Pass)
These two are great choices for Tome warlocks.

Message is 120ft around corners, through keyholes, and through thing walls and floors. It can used to communicate with creatures you can't see in other rooms, and outside of the audible range of a V component, silently. It's very good for communicating with scouts.

Shocking Grasp is a great way to get away from an armored bruiser and still do some damage.

Nagog
2019-07-06, 04:46 PM
Of the three Pacts, I'd say Pact of the Tome is by far the best particularly for the Book of Ancient Secrets, and it's only enhanced by having Wizards and Sorcerers in the party. This means that when they learn a Ritual spell, you can too, including Find Familiar from a Wizard. Multiple familiars increases utility, as do other ritual spells you can pick up. The best part of that invocation is that you can learn any ritual spell, regardless of the spell list. If I remember correctly, Druids have a lot of ritual spells, and with how few druid players there are, having someone who can somewhat fill that role in a pinch is nice. Also, the extra cantrips are really nice, as you gain access to other class-specific cantrips. Most of my TomeLocks include Spare the Dying in that list, in case somebody downs the Cleric/Paladin and suddenly we're out of a healer. I also usually include a few utility cantrips like Light. All in all, having 3 more cantrips to choose from as a Warlockj is wonderful, as once you've cast your 2-5 leveled spells your cantrips is what helps keep you effective in the fight at any range. Guidance and Shillelagh are also great choices, as is Vine Whip for an Area Control build.

As for choosing between that and Mask of Many Faces, I'd say stick with the default tome with the cantrips until you can get another Invocation to pick up BoAS. While BoAS is extremely useful, MoMF has better instant use utility, while BoAS takes time to build up to full power.

Evaar
2019-07-06, 04:48 PM
Tome allows you to take Shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip, the combination of which would allow you to viably engage in melee (though you’ll want to get the Medium Armor Master feat so you don’t just get smacked). I don’t think Shocking Grasp is worth it - just Disengage if you want to escape rather than gamble on a possible miss.

Maybe you don’t want to go that way, but cantrips can be quite useful. Look up options for Mold Earth, Shape Water, Minor Illusion - plenty of threads exist on this forum. Tome gives you all the flexibility of those options.

Just wanted to pop in and make sure the base bonus you get from Tome Pact isn’t overlooked. It allows you to expand your character’s options dramatically.

Cyclops08
2019-07-06, 10:49 PM
OK, so I will stick with Pact of the tome.
Upon reflection I will stick with blasting instead of fun stuff to start with.
2nd level Agonizing Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets
5th Maddening Hex (+Charisma mod in psychic damage)
so that will be 1D10 +1D6 (Hex), + CHA Mod, +CHA Mod

I am thinking of taking a var human.
Spell Sniper doubles my range to 240 feet, but more importantly: I can ignore 3/4 and less cover.

Moderately Armored lets me use medium armor and shield, and would compliment that Shillelagh cantrip

Magic Initiate gives me two cantrips and a 1st level spell. I will be the cantrip king with this.

Cyclops08
2019-07-06, 10:51 PM
Tome allows you to take Shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip, the combination of which would allow you to viably engage in melee
SCAG. Ya lost me there. What is that?

wombat31
2019-07-06, 11:11 PM
Sword coast adventurers guide

bid
2019-07-06, 11:11 PM
SCAG. Ya lost me there. What is that?
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

Mostly for the 2 cantrips that make a melee attackcwith scaled damage.

bid
2019-07-06, 11:15 PM
If you were to take Cleric Cantrips;

Pact of the Tome (p. 108). The cantrips are considered warlock spells for you, and they needn’t be from the same spell list.
Maybe you didn't mean to take them all from the same class, but just to be clear.

Chaelos
2019-07-06, 11:55 PM
The Book of Ancient Secrets is listed in the invocations.
My pact magic comes at 3rd level but I don't get a new invocation until 6th.

I was looking seriously at the Mask of Many Faces incantation (My background is going to be a performer/actor). But I have to give that up after one level to get the ritual spell versatility I want.

Is the pact worth it considering there may be wizards/clerics in the party already?

The more I look at a warlock the more difficult it looks to play. I can see why so many people multi class out.

Still, I want to single class a warlock blaster Cause I really really want that thrall feature at 14th level.

Warlocks' problem, relative to all other classes, is that they're a 4e class cosplaying as a 5e class. They aren't difficult to play--you usually just Eldritch Blast everything in sight and burn your limited Pact Magic slots when you're fairly confident you'll be getting a Short Rest--but they are much more boring than other classes. If you're OK with endlessly spamming Eldritch Blast, then play a solo-class Warlock.

I would also caution you not to build around a feature that only comes online at level 14, because the vast majority of campaigns never get there.

As to your question: I personally love Book of Ancient Secrets, but if you have a Wizard and a Cleric in your game, it is going to be mostly redundant, no question. And while Rituals are definitely powerful, they're definitely niche--in many situations, you just won't have 10 minutes to sit down and cast a spell. (This thread (https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471722-Know-Your-Rites-A-Guide-to-Ritual-Casting-(Oraibi)) has a good breakdown of what Rituals you might actually care about.) My rule of thumb with Warlocks is: if you're fairly confident you'll have other Arcane casters in the party, go Pact of the Chain with an Imp familiar; otherwise, go Pact of the Tome.

Mercurias
2019-07-07, 01:30 AM
The Book of Ancient Secrets is listed in the invocations.
My pact magic comes at 3rd level but I don't get a new invocation until 6th.

I was looking seriously at the Mask of Many Faces incantation (My background is going to be a performer/actor). But I have to give that up after one level to get the ritual spell versatility I want.

Is the pact worth it considering there may be wizards/clerics in the party already?

The more I look at a warlock the more difficult it looks to play. I can see why so many people multi class out.

I'd say that Pact of the Tome is probably the most powerful Warlock spec available. The Book of Ancient Secrets is a way to cast a number of extremely useful level 1-6 spells for free from EVERY spell list, and this is a massive amount of versatility provided 1) You have the creativity to make use of ritual spells in and out of combat, and 2) if your DM will drop or allow you to purchase enough ritual spells to make investing in the invocation worthwhile.

I would talk to your DM and read up on ritual spells before deciding whether it's something you'd like to make use of.

Tanarii
2019-07-07, 08:24 AM
, and 2) if your DM will drop or allow you to purchase enough ritual spells to make investing in the invocation worthwhile.
This is a hugely important consideration for Tome/Ancient Secrets Warlocks and Ritual Caster Feat PCs.

The odds of finding a ritual in a scroll are practically zero if the DM uses the Treasure Tables and then randomly determines spells on top of that.

Using XtGE downtime to purchase them is fairly time consuming process of locating a specific magic item, and somewhat costly too.

If a DM will allow it, it's actually better to use XtGE Research downtime to locate a Temple, Druid Circle, or Wizard, then persuading them to custom scribe you a scroll.

Zetakya
2019-07-07, 08:49 AM
Or bargain with your Patron for whatever Ritual you want in exchange for performing some service for it.

You're a Warlock after all, why stop at selling your soul just once?

Tanarii
2019-07-07, 08:53 AM
You're a Warlock after all, why stop at selling your soul just once?
"Look, I know you want the other three quarters of my soul. I'll trade you a twentieth part of the remainder for Augury."

RSP
2019-07-07, 09:17 AM
5th Maddening Hex (+Charisma mod in psychic damage)
so that will be 1D10 +1D6 (Hex), + CHA Mod, +CHA Mod .

I’d hold off on Maddening Hex, and just go ahead and grab Mask of Many Faces (or Repelling Blast for combat); MH isn’t necessarily bad, but it isn’t that effective in combat, as most times (including at least every first round of combat) you’re using your BA to move/cast Hex.

If you regularly fight mobs of weaker enemies, you’ll be switching Hex a lot (but at least have a chance at getting multiple enemies within 5’ of the cursed creature). While, if always doing single enemy “boss fights”, you’ll get to use it more, but without affecting multiple enemies. If Hex is your only BA feature, and you mostly do boss fights, it’s not bad, I’ve just found moving Hex occurs a lot more often than not, at least in the WotC campaigns I’ve played.

I actually like it best in social encounters to mess with your opponent(s), as neither moving Hex nor using Maddening Hex involves any obvious noticeable cues. So that haughty noble you’re plotting against, and his entourage, just starts getting migraines during the party and has to leave (or embarrassingly pass out), leaving the court alone to you and your party.

Vorpalchicken
2019-07-07, 10:41 AM
I think Create Thrall is a terrific and underrated ability. While I haven't had a chance to play a character with it, I believe it has a lot of potential.

First it has awesome RP potential.

Second, it is much easier to use than folks realize. All you need to do is have an incapacitated humanoid opponent. You can do that with even first level spells. (Also you have to not have another thrall that will be inconvenient to release.) It automatically works. It just needs an action.

While the thrall could potentially defy you, what people don't realize is, unlike other charms, this one doesn't end if you harm the thrall.

So you can hurt the thrall but it can't hurt you. That's a lot of power. If they give you lip, you kick them down a flight of stairs. And there's nothing they can do to you.

Cyclops08
2019-07-07, 01:06 PM
I think Create Thrall is a terrific and underrated ability. While I haven't had a chance to play a character with it, I believe it has a lot of potential.

First it has awesome RP potential.

Second, it is much easier to use than folks realize. All you need to do is have an incapacitated humanoid opponent. You can do that with even first level spells. (Also you have to not have another thrall that will be inconvenient to release.) It automatically works. It just needs an action.

While the thrall could potentially defy you, what people don't realize is, unlike other charms, this one doesn't end if you harm the thrall.

So you can hurt the thrall but it can't hurt you. That's a lot of power. If they give you lip, you kick them down a flight of stairs. And there's nothing they can do to you.
Thats how I was thinking of using it...like putting the drow high priestess to work healing the party, giving good information, neck massages, fetching another beer for master, you know basic thrall stuff. Certainly if the DM is gonna kill me, I might as well really earn it.

Galithar
2019-07-07, 04:37 PM
Just want to point out that Shocking Grasp's ability to prevent reactions is best used to prevent reactions OTHER then AoO. Have a pesky caster that might counterspell your wizard buddy? Hit him with shocking grasp and he can't. This could A prevent a counterspell or B save your wizard the spell slot from countering the counterspell.

So it's still niche, but best used when you aren't trying to act like it's a pseudo disengage. Delivery through a familiar is my preferred method for this.

Magicspook
2019-07-07, 06:47 PM
If you have other ritual casters, Chainlock might be better. Ask your DM if you can reflavor an Imp as a Gazer or other aberrant creature.
I also think it’s important to ask, what do you think Create Thrall will do?

Why not just use a gazer?

JackPhoenix
2019-07-07, 07:22 PM
Thats how I was thinking of using it...like putting the drow high priestess to work healing the party, giving good information, neck massages, fetching another beer for master, you know basic thrall stuff. Certainly if the DM is gonna kill me, I might as well really earn it.

Yeah... that's not how it works. The thrall can't harm you, but they're not any friendlier towards you than before... propably less. Nothing stops them from killing the rest of your group, feeding you false information or telling you to go fornicate yourself. Or hire an assassin or order some minions to kill you for them. The charmed part basically means you can ask super nicely (you get advantage on any Cha check required), but you can't convince them to do something they wouldn't do normally.

RSP
2019-07-07, 07:34 PM
Just want to point out that Shocking Grasp's ability to prevent reactions is best used to prevent reactions OTHER then AoO. Have a pesky caster that might counterspell your wizard buddy? Hit him with shocking grasp and he can't. This could A prevent a counterspell or B save your wizard the spell slot from countering the counterspell.

So it's still niche, but best used when you aren't trying to act like it's a pseudo disengage. Delivery through a familiar is my preferred method for this.

Not sure I agree with this, at least for most tables and DMs. Why wouldn’t the enemy caster counter the Shocking Grasp? Does the enemy caster know instinctively that Shocking Grasp, a cantrip is being cast, rather than Disintegrate? And even if they know it’s Shocking Grasp, why allow themselves to be SG’d and not be able to Counterspell the Wizard?

I think using SG to avoid OAs is still the better, and more frequent, use of its Reaction negation.

Misterwhisper
2019-07-07, 07:51 PM
Not sure I agree with this, at least for most tables and DMs. Why wouldn’t the enemy caster counter the Shocking Grasp? Does the enemy caster know instinctively that Shocking Grasp, a cantrip is being cast, rather than Disintegrate? And even if they know it’s Shocking Grasp, why allow themselves to be SG’d and not be able to Counterspell the Wizard?

I think using SG to avoid OAs is still the better, and more frequent, use of its Reaction negation.

A few issues with this:

1: why are you in melee range with the enemy if you are not a hexblade, and even the. You are still better off blasting.

2. If you did close into melee for some reason you have many better answers for someone casting than using shocking grasp.
Darkness being the best one.

3. Depending on your level, just attack them. As a warlock your damage is pretty good just kill them. Also there is a fairly good chance they will counterspell your eldritch blast unless your dm is metagaming.

4. Your job is not to waste your turn to protect the wizard, they also have many many more spells than you. They can handle themselves.

5. If you are really worried about it, just counterspell then if it comes up, although the wizard would be better off doing it

RSP
2019-07-07, 08:04 PM
A few issues with this:

1: why are you in melee range with the enemy if you are not a hexblade, and even the. You are still better off blasting.

2. If you did close into melee for some reason you have many better answers for someone casting than using shocking grasp.
Darkness being the best one.

3. Depending on your level, just attack them. As a warlock your damage is pretty good just kill them. Also there is a fairly good chance they will counterspell your eldritch blast unless your dm is metagaming.

4. Your job is not to waste your turn to protect the wizard, they also have many many more spells than you. They can handle themselves.

5. If you are really worried about it, just counterspell then if it comes up, although the wizard would be better off doing it

Not sure what your point is. Are you questioning my response to the original post claiming the best use of SG is to prevent Counterspell (my post wasn’t meant to be Warlock specific)? Or are you adding onto my post in questioning the original SG post?

Galithar
2019-07-07, 09:11 PM
Not sure I agree with this, at least for most tables and DMs. Why wouldn’t the enemy caster counter the Shocking Grasp? Does the enemy caster know instinctively that Shocking Grasp, a cantrip is being cast, rather than Disintegrate? And even if they know it’s Shocking Grasp, why allow themselves to be SG’d and not be able to Counterspell the Wizard?

I think using SG to avoid OAs is still the better, and more frequent, use of its Reaction negation.

If they counter your shocking grasp all the better. Then they burned the spellslot and STILL can't counter the Wizards spell. If they'd just let it hit they'd take minor damage and save a spellslot. Not too much of a concern for an NPC that's about to die though. SG even when counterspelled is still doing it's job of removing a reaction.

Feel free to disagree, but if a squishy needs to avoid an OA the way to do it is with disengage. Not by risking a miss with Shocking Grasp.

If you want to prevent a reaction spell like counterspell, shield (yes I'm aware they COULD shield the Shocking Grasp, but they get to make the choice to shield NOW instead of when the party Paladin is about to smite) or absorb elements. I've even once seen it used to prevent a featherfall.


An A**hole DM (Read: Galithar) decided it would be fun to get the party Wizard by pushing them off a ledge. They then prepared Featherfall for the next day (knowing they would be fighting in the same terrain) when the enemy caster hit him with a shocking grasp (used to block his counterspell ability) I decided to take the opportunity to push him off a ledge again. Through the laughter I got accused of modifying spell lists specifically to do this. Which I hadn't, and my players are good sports and we had a good laugh about it. Don't do this to a group that isn't friends or DM vs Player mindset players.... It won't end well. Unless you want to lose players haha)

Galithar
2019-07-07, 09:23 PM
A few issues with this:

1: why are you in melee range with the enemy if you are not a hexblade, and even the. You are still better off blasting.

2. If you did close into melee for some reason you have many better answers for someone casting than using shocking grasp.
Darkness being the best one.

3. Depending on your level, just attack them. As a warlock your damage is pretty good just kill them. Also there is a fairly good chance they will counterspell your eldritch blast unless your dm is metagaming.

4. Your job is not to waste your turn to protect the wizard, they also have many many more spells than you. They can handle themselves.

5. If you are really worried about it, just counterspell then if it comes up, although the wizard would be better off doing it

First I'm assuming this is in response to me.

1. Deliver it with a familiar and you're not in melee range. Something I pointed out eariler.

2. Darkness can be good, but it's not really a cure-all. As a Warlock you have limited slots, and unless you're an EB/Devil's Sight build darkness is often not worth your spell slot.

3. As a Warlock your damage is pretty good, but this doesn't affect the time when you have an enemy that is actually a threat. A caster that isn't such a push over to be killed in one attack. If your DM has them be counterspell happy, then that's great. Maybe you play with the RAW that you have no clue what spell is being cast and a EB looks like Disintegrate looks like Wish. At my table you auto identify anything prepared by you, have an advantaged (free action) check if it's on your class list and a normal check if it's on another's list. Caveat you may only act on the knowledge if YOUR character makes the roll. It's a split second thing and you can't tell someone else what's happening that fast. Super sidebar and I realize it's a houserule, but I know of 0 tables that don't houserule this somehow. It's beyond irritating to counterspell cantrips and the like unless it's what you intended.

4. Your job is absolutely to protect the Wizard. And the Fighter and the Paladin and the Rouge and the Barbarian and the... I hope you see where I'm going with this. D&D is a team game and should be played like one. It's far more valuable for you to prevent a Counterspell or bait it out with a weak spell if your Wizard buddy is about to throw Disintegrate at the boss. He'll do more with that then you could with an EB

5. Why waste a spell slot and your reaction if you can do it with a cantrip? Sure you're losing a little bit of damage to do that, (up to 24 at level 17+) but the resources saved, especially at the earlier levels where the damage difference is smaller, is valuable. Unless you're in a 5 minute adventuring day... Then blow all your leveled spells because as a Warlock you're only getting 2 a day...

Xihirli
2019-07-07, 10:46 PM
Why not just use a gazer?

It's not one of the specified statblocks permitted by the Tomelock feature.

Nagog
2019-07-08, 10:10 AM
Yeah... that's not how it works. The thrall can't harm you, but they're not any friendlier towards you than before... propably less. Nothing stops them from killing the rest of your group, feeding you false information or telling you to go fornicate yourself. Or hire an assassin or order some minions to kill you for them. The charmed part basically means you can ask super nicely (you get advantage on any Cha check required), but you can't convince them to do something they wouldn't do normally.

While this is what it is mechanically, and some really hard balled DMs may play this like that, this approach makes absolutely no sense in the narrative. You have advantage on all charisma checks, so the Thrall regards you in high esteem, whether that's due to fear or love or some weird cultist style obsession is up to the DM and will likely be influenced by how you treat them. In the example, I wouldn't be surprised a Drow Priestess to go the obsessive worship route considering how they view Lolth. This ability essentially turns a hostile, incapacitated enemy into a very friendly one, and one that regards the player in a very favorable light at that.

JackPhoenix
2019-07-08, 10:41 AM
While this is what it is mechanically, and some really hard balled DMs may play this like that, this approach makes absolutely no sense in the narrative. You have advantage on all charisma checks, so the Thrall regards you in high esteem, whether that's due to fear or love or some weird cultist style obsession is up to the DM and will likely be influenced by how you treat them. In the example, I wouldn't be surprised a Drow Priestess to go the obsessive worship route considering how they view Lolth. This ability essentially turns a hostile, incapacitated enemy into a very friendly one, and one that regards the player in a very favorable light at that.

No. If it turned the target friendly, it woud say so, like Charm Person does. Advantage on Cha checks means your words are extra convincing to the target, but it in no way changes the target's attitude towards you. The target is unable to attack you because it's forbidden to by magic, not because it considers you a friend. You can still attack your friends, you can't attack someone who charmed you.

The ability turns a hostile, incapacitated enemy into a hostile enemy who's magically prevented from attacking the caster, and who's more vulnerable to the caster's attempts to socially influence them, but one that doesn't regard the caster or anyone else any differently than before.

Segev
2019-07-08, 12:57 PM
The ability turns a hostile, incapacitated enemy into a hostile enemy who's magically prevented from attacking the caster, and who's more vulnerable to the caster's attempts to socially influence them, but one that doesn't regard the caster or anyone else any differently than before.

Indeed. This doesn't mean it can't be used to break and enslave, though. They can't attack you. They can't escape your voice. You're in their head. You can make Charisma(Persuasion) and Charisma(Intimidation) checks from any distance. No matter where they go. With Advantage. You can make Charisma(Deception) checks to disguise your intrusive thoughts as things they've come up with, themselves (again, with Advantage). Work them over until they're thinking how you want them to think.

It's a long, slow, cruel, wicked process, but doable as long as the DM isn't deliberately uncooperative.

Of course, it'd be nice if it were a dominate person effect, or even had similar clauses to charm person regarding how loyal the Thrall was compelled to be. But it's not, sadly. Still, it's not useless...just harder to use than one might expect from the name.