Hybrid Sorcerer: A Simple Solution

[Trickery]

Many have pointed out that Sorcerers are weak this edition. They have more rework attempts than, perhaps, any other class.


Cons

Fewer spells known than a wizard
Much smaller spell list than a wizard
Unable to change spells known on a long rest like Clerics and Druids can
Unable to use any armor or special weapons like Bards, Warlocks, Clerics, and Druids
No ritual casting unlike Druids, Wizards, Bards, Clerics, and even some Warlocks
Lower HP than Bards, Warlocks, or Clerics
Their unique feature, metamagic, is unavailable until level 3, and is very limited in uses per day until level 6 or so
No Arcane Recovery like Wizards get, nor similar features

Pros

Metamagic
Innate Con saves (though they don't get Dex or Wis as a result)

That's about it. Sorcerers are basically Wizards with far fewer spells known, no ritual casting, no Arcane Recovery, and a much smaller spell list, all of which they trade for Metamagic. And the designers have gone to egregious lengths to limit Metamagic (bonus action spell rule, no twinning spells that can target more than one creature, etc.).

This thread was inspired by the many Sorcerer rework attempts. Most of them use the spell point model, which I think is the correct approach since it's close to the niche sorcerers used to have. However, I feel that most of the attempts are have two problems:

They're too complex
They either make the Sorcerer too much like a Wizard or too much like a Warlock

Warlocks are encouraged to blow all of their spell slots every encounter as these will come back on a short rest. Wizards are encouraged to play conservatively and save their spells for boss encounters - where they will blow all of their slots.

Ideally, a Sorcerer should be between the two. This is a simple hybrid approach.

Hybrid Sorcerer: Three Simple Changes

Sorcerers have no spell slots, but instead have Sorcery Points equal to Sorcerer Level * 2
Sorcerers recover Sorcery Points equal to Sorcerer level when they take a Short Rest, or all Sorcery Points when they take a Long Rest.
Sorcerers cast spells directly from Sorcery Points

Point cost = spell's level
Can only cast a specific spell of level 6 or higher once per day


This results in the Sorcerer casting more spells than a wizard per day at some levels, but only if:

The Sorcerer spends all of his sorcery points optimally
The Sorcerer mostly casts lower level spells so as not to burn through Sorcery Points too quickly
The Sorcerer is able to take two or more short rests that day at optimal times
The Sorcerer doesn't use any Metamagic
The Wizard doesn't cast any rituals

You have to take the wizard's Arcane Recovery and rituals into consideration as the Sorcerer does not have these and wizards get a lot of extra spell mileage out of these features. Arcane Recovery results in a Level 10 Wizard being able to cast 46 Sorcery Points worth of spells (multiply number of spell slots by their spell level, add 5 to total), where the Sorcerer could optimally cast just 40 Sorcery Points worth of spells that day with this system (Level*2 = 20, Plus 10 per two short rests). The Sorcerer's advantage is being able to cast spells of whatever level is appropriate for the moment.

Besides Arcane Recovery and Ritual Casting, the sorcerer's additional spells are also balanced by the Sorcerer's smaller spell list and much smaller number of spells known. It also makes the Sorcerer less reliant on Metamagic to provide its entire niche.

With this system, the Sorcerer is discouraged from blowing all of their sorcery points in a fight because they won't get all of their points back on a short rest, only half of them. The Sorcerer instead operates halfway between a Wizard and a Warlock, more careful than a Warlock but more carefree than a Wizard - an unoccupied niche.

This system is both simple and deep. The player will have an easy time understanding the mechanics but also has interesting decisions to make every encounter and every level. Do I spend my Sorcery Points on spells or on Metamagic? Do I pick more low-level spells that I can cast as needed, or more high-level spells that I can cast more sparingly? Do i take more than one 6th level spell so that I can cast extra 6th level spells per day but can only cast each one once, or do I focus on lower level spells that I can cast as I need them? And so on.

A lot of people are hesitant to change anything about the Sorcerer for fear of unbalancing the game. You don't need to worry about that sort of thing so much as long as every class has strengths and weaknesses compared to the others. This version of the Sorcerer is truly unique in 5e, does things other classes don't do, but also has several drawbacks compared to other full casters. Give this a try at the table and you'll see how easy and fun this system is to use.

Edit: small corrections, added Con saves to pros.

Edit 2: I created a more comprehensive Simple Sorcerer over at Homebrewery: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryLQS4Ubr.

[Dork_Forge]

It's an interesting approach but I think changing over from spellslots is, well a bit too much work and makes them different from every other caster. My personal solution for this balance issue has just been to strip out Arcane recovery from Wizards (imo it is just OP to give them that as a class ability on top of everything else) and create sorcerous recovery (Once per day when you short rest you can regain SP=1/2 Sorcerer level rounded up and is available from second level when font of magic comes online.

[Kane0]

As someone who took a similar approach, I approve of this idea and would like to see any playtest results that come of it

[Floogal]

A second pro for sorcerers you should add to your list is that they get proficiency in Constitution saving throws.

No other full caster does, which is especially notable in a game with no feats or multiclassing. I suspect that the classes were designed & balanced with these limitations in mind, which would explain one intended specialty for sorcerers: better at keeping concentration spells up in combat.

Of course, most discussions on this forum seem to deal with games where feats & multiclassing are allowed, losing the sorcerer one of its niches.

[Aimeryan]

Very interested in this.

I was a proponent of the power point system in 3.5e; I'm not keen on the Vancian spell system in general, even if 5e allows for spontaneous choice. I have always preferred the greater choice and granularity of single numeric resource than the pre-packaged cost of spells-as-grenades. Furthermore, merging this resource with the metamagic resource means more choice is given to the player there as well - sometimes you want few spells with more metamagic, sometimes you want lots of spells with few metamagic.

That said, the biggest weakness for the Sorcerer is still the spells known and not being able to swap out on a rest. This is not just a combat issue, either; it means picking up fun but situational spells for out of combat usage is a big no-no, where as a Wizard has no problem doing this. For combat, it means situationally really powerful spells that you know will be useful in the immediate future can just be too situational to risk taking when you have the opportunity (at level up).

I am not sure filling the niche between Warlock and Wizard in terms of recovery and nova time necessarily will make for much actual difference. Step in the right direction, though.

[Trickery]

A second pro for sorcerers you should add to your list is that they get proficiency in Constitution saving throws.

No other full caster does, which is especially notable in a game with no feats or multiclassing. I suspect that the classes were designed & balanced with these limitations in mind, which would explain one intended specialty for sorcerers: better at keeping concentration spells up in combat.

Thanks. I added that.

[YoFizz]

I like what you’ve done here and I generally like sorcerers but I had a question that might be slightly off topic... was there an edition where sorcerers were particularly good? I’ve always heard them compared to wizards and how they are just an inferior version.

[Trickery]

I like what you’ve done here and I generally like sorcerers but I had a question that might be slightly off topic... was there an edition where sorcerers were particularly good? I’ve always heard them compared to wizards and how they are just an inferior version.

As far as I know, they've generally been considered inferior to Wizards. The difference is that, in the past, it was debatable.

There have been some spin-off games using modified systems where Sorcerers were good. And, back in 3.5e, there were some half-dragon races and a variation of kobold that made very good Sorcerers by, basically, getting to start a higher spell level (IIRC). And Sorcerers made good blasters back then, arguably better than Wizards.

But that wasn't their main draw. In the past, the advantage Sorcerers had was being able to spend any spell slot to cast any applicable spell they knew. Because they would accumulate more spells known as they leveled and never had to prepare them, this made Sorcerers the only class that could cast any spell they knew at any time (provided they had the slots for it). Other casters had to load specific spells into specific slots. In game terms, it was as if Sorcerers could prepare all of their spells in all of their spell slots at once. It was actually a big deal and made Sorcerers a good choice for newer players who weren't yet ready for a Wizard's bookkeeping.

In short, Sorcerers' superior casting was the reason why they had far fewer spells known.

This edition, Wizards can prepare a number of spells equal to INT + Wizard level. That gives them 25 prepared spells at level 20. A Sorcerer will only know 15 spells at level 20. In fact, Wizards can prepare more spells than the Sorcerer knows at every level. This was the one advantage Sorcerers used to have, and now the tables have been flipped on them. And Wizards, along with every other caster, have now stolen the Sorcerer's spell casting.

To add insult to injury, WotC added ritual casting this edition but chose not to give it to Sorcerers. Even Bards can do it, but not Sorcerers.

What did the Sorcerer gain in return? Metamagic. That's basically it. And Metamagic isn't something that you can just use on your spells - that would be too good. No, it has a steep cost. Even at max level, you could only quicken 10 spells before you'd be out of sorcery points. Meanwhile there are variants of Wizard that can Twin certain kinds of spells for free, or can made certain spells Careful-but-better for free, or can get free spell slots just for casting spells of the correct school...

At the end of the day, Sorcerers are a gimmick class in 5e. I call them a gimmick class because the only way to make them work is by using gimmicks:

Padlock - quicken hold person + guaranteed smite crit (provided the target fails its saving throw).
Sorlock - quicken EB + EB = machinegun.
Extend + Divine Soul - cast 8 hour buffs on your party extended to 16 hours before a long rest, then recover your sorcery points during the rest. Free Aid, Mage Armor, etc. for 8 hours after a long rest.
Subtle + Suggestion - Jedi mind trick, useful in social campaigns.

Other classes have gimmicks as well. This isn't a niche; it's a disgrace.

[YoFizz]

i wish i could upvote your post or something, that was great. just to clarify past editions, if i were a wizard and had two 2nd level spell slots i had to assign each slot a spell at the start of the day? whereas if I'm a sorcerer it worked how it does in 5e? I'm glad i chose sorcerer in the one game of pathfinder i did way back when now lol

[8wGremlin]

Question: How does this system interact with Multi-classing?
How does it act with full casters, and the other types of casters?

[Trickery]

i wish i could upvote your post or something, that was great. just to clarify past editions, if i were a wizard and had two 2nd level spell slots i had to assign each slot a spell at the start of the day? whereas if I'm a sorcerer it worked how it does in 5e? I'm glad i chose sorcerer in the one game of pathfinder i did way back when now lol

Basically yeah. Wizards had to "load" spells into specific spell slots, which is where the old gun analogy came from (wizards loaded spell "bullets" into their spell "revolver," and the spell was gone once fired). That meant that Wizards could potentially fill all of their slots with just Magic Missile if they wanted. Sorcerers just had spell slots that functioned like they do in 5e.

[Nightgaun7]

I am currently playtesting a similar Sorcerer rework for a friend. I like it thus far, I can cast low level spells and use metamagic easily enough but pulling out a big spell or the beefy metamagics still requires some judgement. In addition it has a class feature that lets you build up bonus points as long as you cast with certain restrictions, which you can then use for metamagic and a couple of other things, but not spells themselves. It really encourages slinging metamagic around by using lower level spells creatively and sticking to the theme of your Sorcerer without being overly constrictive. While it's still very much a WIP I like the basics a lot. I'll try to remember to come back and share it when it's done.

[Nightgaun7]

I like what you’ve done here and I generally like sorcerers but I had a question that might be slightly off topic... was there an edition where sorcerers were particularly good? I’ve always heard them compared to wizards and how they are just an inferior version.

In 4E (best E) Sorcerers and Wizards filled two different roles. Wizards were designed to be Controllers, who debuff enemies and change the battlefield, with a dash of AoE damage. Sorcerers, meanwhile, are Strikers, who do large amounts of damage. The Sorcerer is similar to the Wizard in that it focuses more on AoE than other Strikers, and has a dash on Controller effects on a bunch of its powers.

Now in practice a Wizard who was built to do so could function as well as a Sorcerer in the Striker role on the side. But it was far and away the best edition for differentiating the two, and 5E's identity for the Sorcerer is built on the foundation from 4E.

[paladinn]

I'm a huge fan of reworking the Sorcerer class. In 5e RAW, there's not a real justification for having it, when wizards have spontaneous casting. Divine souls Might be an exception, since they can access cleric spells (Maybe we need a "primal soul" to do the same with druid spells?)

I like the idea of combining spell points and sorcery points and using the pool for both spells and metamagic. I would also add the ability to downcast a spell; they can already upcast, I believe. Why can't a sorc cast a spell with a lower spell slot? A level 1 fireball might be useful against a few mooks.

In 3.x, a sorc was proficient with simple weapons; definitely bring that back.

Just my $.02 worth

[MrStabby]

Step 1 is to not compare the sorcerer to the wizard. The wizard is probably the most powerful class. Of course with appropriate allowances for campaign type and subjectivity.

Step 2 is to not compare it to the Bard, probably the second most powerful class.

If you want to fix it in terms of making its power ok, then balance it relative to less exceptional classes. Compare it to the cleric or Warlock or fighter.

Sorcerer is very powerful, but kind of painful. The pain comes from how much better it would be with a relaxation of constraints. Much better with more metamagic, much better with more sorcery points, much better with more spells known. This is true but hardly makes it bad as is.

The suggestions kind of take a really powerful class and boost it somewhat. I think more downsides are needed.

[Trickery]

Step 1 is to not compare the sorcerer to the wizard. The wizard is probably the most powerful class. Of course with appropriate allowances for campaign type and subjectivity.

Step 2 is to not compare it to the Bard, probably the second most powerful class.

If you want to fix it in terms of making its power ok, then balance it relative to less exceptional classes. Compare it to the cleric or Warlock or fighter.

Sorcerer is very powerful, but kind of painful. The pain comes from how much better it would be with a relaxation of constraints. Much better with more metamagic, much better with more sorcery points, much better with more spells known. This is true but hardly makes it bad as is.

The suggestions kind of take a really powerful class and boost it somewhat. I think more downsides are needed.

I reject your notion that I shouldn't compare the Sorcerer to the wizard. The wizard is the closest class by features, having the same armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, and HP while also being a full caster with few class features. There is no other class to easily compare it to.

But I did compare it to the others, anyway. The Sorcerer has fewer spells known than any of them and does not gain features like ritual caster, bardic inspiration, armor proficiencies, wildshaping, etc. What it does get is Metamagic, and it gets fewer average uses of this feature per day at level 3 than a druid gets of their wildshape feature per short rest. Metamagic is a comparatively bad feature, but it's the main thing sorcerers get instead of ritual casting, the ability to change spells on a long rest, two or more new spells per level like a wizard, armor proficiencies + higher HP + additional features like the bard / cleric / druid, etc.

Compared to a warlock, the sorcerer also has less HP, fewer spells known in the long run (counting Mystic Arcanums, and I don't know why we wouldn't count these), no invocations, no pact (meaning no familiar, ritual casting, or weapon proficiency), and comparatively weak features for its subclasses compared to warlock patrons. Fiend is better than Draconic Sorcerer as it allows the player to choose a damage resistance type as needed and grants a huge burst damage option at later levels. Celestial is better than Divine Soul because it gives the warlock the ability to heal allies as a bonus action without using a spell, thus evading the bonus action spell limitation.

You call the Sorcerer a powerful class but don't say what it's powerful in relation to. If its weak compared to similar classes, then it's weak by definition. Sorcerer is weak in the worst kind of way. The only reason you would play one is if you want to be a full caster, and all of the other full casters are better at what the Sorcerer does, especially the Wizard. That means there's no reason to play a Sorcerer unless you either want to challenge yourself, want to multiclass, or want to play some kind of gimmick character.

[Aimeryan]

Step 1 is to not compare the sorcerer to the wizard. The wizard is probably the most powerful class. Of course with appropriate allowances for campaign type and subjectivity.

Step 2 is to not compare it to the Bard, probably the second most powerful class.

If you want to fix it in terms of making its power ok, then balance it relative to less exceptional classes. Compare it to the cleric or Warlock or fighter.

Sorcerer is very powerful, but kind of painful. The pain comes from how much better it would be with a relaxation of constraints. Much better with more metamagic, much better with more sorcery points, much better with more spells known. This is true but hardly makes it bad as is.

The suggestions kind of take a really powerful class and boost it somewhat. I think more downsides are needed.

If you do the calculations it is actually a nerf from level 6 onwards. Well, arguably the flexibility counters this at lower levels still, but by the higher levels the loss of spell slots really comes into play - equivalent to losing five level 5 slots. This is presuming the standard two short rests - less (which is quite common) it is even more of a nerf.

The Sorcerer doesn't have the versatility that the Wizard enjoys, and it is the versatility that makes the Wizard powerful. You mention comparing to the Fighter - the Fighter is exceptional strong at dealing damage and great at taking damage. The Sorcerer is weaker here.

If it wasn't for multiclassing with the other Charisma classes, and being competent at doing so at a half-mix, the Sorcerer would likely not see much play amongst experienced players - it simply does not have a niche it fills better than other classes, and does not excel as a jack-of-all-trades, either.

[MrStabby]

Ok, maybe I shouldn't have said don't compare to the wizard. I should have said to compare it to the wizard with the expectation of fixing the wizard instead.

Wizards are the ultimate generalists. Sorcerers are more general than a class that resorts to simply hitting something with a sword or blunt object but there are a lot of classes more similar to the wizard than the sorcerer is. Warlock is probably the best comparison: a spells known class with some really unique strengths, but some serious limitations and about on the same level of generalist vs specialist.

[Trickery]

Ok, maybe I shouldn't have said don't compare to the wizard. I should have said to compare it to the wizard with the expectation of fixing the wizard instead.

Wizards are the ultimate generalists. Sorcerers are more general than a class that resorts to simply hitting something with a sword or blunt object but there are a lot of classes more similar to the wizard than the sorcerer is. Warlock is probably the best comparison: a spells known class with some really unique strengths, but some serious limitations and about on the same level of generalist vs specialist.

I did compare them to a warlock. If we use the spell points model, then a warlock is casting fewer total points worth of spells most levels (though it's inconsistent), but has more HP, invocations and pacts that can completely change the way the class plays, and overall superior patron features compared to the Sorcerer's origins. I went into it a little bit above with two of the more obvious comparisons, though this obviously could go on for pages.

Wizards are generalists, but Warlocks and Sorcerers don't really function that way. Warlock features push them heavily toward damage roles, so they're more like a Ranger or a Paladin than a Sorcerer in terms of how they're played, but with usually lower damage and survivability and usually much higher utility. Sorcerers, on the other hand, have features that generally force them to specialize. You get less than half as many spells as a Wizard and can only choose two Metamagic options until later levels. Once these are chosen, that's it. You can't switch spells easily, and you can't change your Metamagic. That's why Sorcerers have to specialize.

You can build a Sorcerer to be a controller, for instance, by taking Twin and Heighten. However, the extreme limitation on using these features makes the Sorcerer not quite as good at this as a Wizard Enchanter. You can also build a blaster using Empower and Careful, but the Wizard Evoker gets a better version of careful for free on their spells. And so on. But Wizards can take an entire extra Sorcerer and then some worth of backup spells for specific scenarios.

That's the real issue, in my opinion. The Sorcerer isn't distinct from other classes, and other classes do what it does but better.

[Aimeryan]

Warlocks don't rely on spellcasting in the traditional way - they use the cantrip Eldritch Blast (w/Agonising and/or Repelling being likely) as their main form of combat potential. The leveled spells they do use are usually longlasting buffs (in one way or another).

Sorcerers don't want to be using cantrips, not even really at the low levels. Levelled spells are where it is at for them, however, they are less flexible, less versatile, and weaker in other ways than other spellcasters at doing so outside of Warlock. This pushes them closer to Warlock in that way, but it is still not really comparable playstyles.

Therefore, I don't really think they compare well at all, and Wizard is definitely a better comparison for Sorcerer. Now, if you combine the Warlock and Sorcerer, then things get interesting. You don't really lose the strengths of either (Metamagic and invocated EBs) - in fact, they supplement each other (Quicken). You play mostly as a better Warlock, but also as a better Sorcerer. Personally, I don't think pure Warlock nor pure Sorcerer are in a good place - but, it gets overlooked because they are both pretty fantastic for multiclassing.

[Innocent_bystan]

I'd simplify your system to
- use spell points
- sorcery points equal spell points
- sorcerer's don't get their sorcery points back after a long rest, but they recover them on a short rest

[Trickery]

I'd simplify your system to
- use spell points
- sorcery points equal spell points
- sorcerer's don't get their sorcery points back after a long rest, but they recover them on a short rest

The spell points variant in the DMG? If so, I'm worried that could result in the Sorcerer casting, like, a whole lot of spells compared to other casters.

[Talsin]

Many have pointed out that Sorcerers are weak this edition. They have more rework attempts than, perhaps, any other class.


Cons

Fewer spells known than a wizard
Much smaller spell list than a wizard
Unable to change spells known on a long rest like Clerics and Druids can
Unable to use any armor or special weapons like Bards, Warlocks, Clerics, and Druids
No ritual casting unlike Druids, Wizards, Bards, Clerics, and even some Warlocks
Lower HP than Bards, Warlocks, or Clerics
Their unique feature, metamagic, is unavailable until level 3, and is very limited in uses per day until level 6 or so
No Arcane Recovery like Wizards get, nor similar features

Pros

Metamagic
Innate Con saves (though they don't get Dex or Wis as a result)

That's about it. Sorcerers are basically Wizards with far fewer spells known, no ritual casting, no Arcane Recovery, and a much smaller spell list, all of which they trade for Metamagic. And the designers have gone to egregious lengths to limit Metamagic (bonus action spell rule, no twinning spells that can target more than one creature, etc.).

This thread was inspired by the many Sorcerer rework attempts. Most of them use the spell point model, which I think is the correct approach since it's close to the niche sorcerers used to have. However, I feel that most of the attempts are have two problems:

They're too complex
They either make the Sorcerer too much like a Wizard or too much like a Warlock

Warlocks are encouraged to blow all of their spell slots every encounter as these will come back on a short rest. Wizards are encouraged to play conservatively and save their spells for boss encounters - where they will blow all of their slots.

Ideally, a Sorcerer should be between the two. This is a simple hybrid approach.

Hybrid Sorcerer: Three Simple Changes

Sorcerers have no spell slots, but instead have Sorcery Points equal to Sorcerer Level * 2
Sorcerers recover Sorcery Points equal to Sorcerer level when they take a Short Rest, or all Sorcery Points when they take a Long Rest.
Sorcerers cast spells directly from Sorcery Points

Point cost = spell's level
Can only cast a specific spell of level 6 or higher once per day


This results in the Sorcerer casting more spells than a wizard per day at some levels, but only if:

The Sorcerer spends all of his sorcery points optimally
The Sorcerer mostly casts lower level spells so as not to burn through Sorcery Points too quickly
The Sorcerer is able to take two or more short rests that day at optimal times
The Sorcerer doesn't use any Metamagic
The Wizard doesn't cast any rituals

You have to take the wizard's Arcane Recovery and rituals into consideration as the Sorcerer does not have these and wizards get a lot of extra spell mileage out of these features. Arcane Recovery results in a Level 10 Wizard being able to cast 46 Sorcery Points worth of spells (multiply number of spell slots by their spell level, add 5 to total), where the Sorcerer could optimally cast just 40 Sorcery Points worth of spells that day with this system (Level*2 = 20, Plus 10 per two short rests). The Sorcerer's advantage is being able to cast spells of whatever level is appropriate for the moment.

Besides Arcane Recovery and Ritual Casting, the sorcerer's additional spells are also balanced by the Sorcerer's smaller spell list and much smaller number of spells known. It also makes the Sorcerer less reliant on Metamagic to provide its entire niche.

With this system, the Sorcerer is discouraged from blowing all of their sorcery points in a fight because they won't get all of their points back on a short rest, only half of them. The Sorcerer instead operates halfway between a Wizard and a Warlock, more careful than a Warlock but more carefree than a Wizard - an unoccupied niche.

This system is both simple and deep. The player will have an easy time understanding the mechanics but also has interesting decisions to make every encounter and every level. Do I spend my Sorcery Points on spells or on Metamagic? Do I pick more low-level spells that I can cast as needed, or more high-level spells that I can cast more sparingly? Do i take more than one 6th level spell so that I can cast extra 6th level spells per day but can only cast each one once, or do I focus on lower level spells that I can cast as I need them? And so on.

A lot of people are hesitant to change anything about the Sorcerer for fear of unbalancing the game. You don't need to worry about that sort of thing so much as long as every class has strengths and weaknesses compared to the others. This version of the Sorcerer is truly unique in 5e, does things other classes don't do, but also has several drawbacks compared to other full casters. Give this a try at the table and you'll see how easy and fun this system is to use.

Edit: small corrections, added Con saves to pros.

So, the main issue I'm running into with your fix is that it only addresses the last 2 issues on your list of CONs for sorcerer, and does not attempt to fix anything else that may be a problem for them. Further, with the point system, it is significantly weaker than if you convert the spell table over as-is, leading to 89 points of spells at level 20 for any full caster.

I think addressing each issue directly may be a more productive process so lets do that, perhaps even framed in a form of the solution concept, and how it fixes or accepts a con.

I think changing Font of Magic is the way to 'fix' Sorcerer.

Regarding spells known: Modify the Font of Magic ability. At 2 points per spell level to cast ANY sorcerer spell you could normally cast, but do not know. You can upcast with the cost of 2 more points per level desired. This casting cannot be affected by any other metamagic. Maybe toss it in at a level higher than 3, but I don't see it being a problem if restricted to sorcerer spells.This gives access to ALL the sorcerer spells, much like a Wizard's Spellbook, but more immediate and (in a way) more resource-costing. That restriction is also there to weaken multiclassing abuse. Perhaps take out the metamagic stack clause at higher levels? If you think this is TOO strong, restrict it to spells below 6th level.

Spell list size: Yes, it's smaller than the Wizard's spell list. However, it is the second largest list out of all lists, and again, with the new metamagic ability, you essentially gain access to ALL of them. The Cleric list is the smallest out of all Full-casters, (Warlock is less if you add it in to that group). On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with added more spells to the list from the wizard list, but that depends on how much time someone could spend sifting through the spell lists right now.

Unable to change spells: Think of these as your Rote practiced spells, you can do ANYTHING with your magic, but you're damn good at doing these spells, hence being unable to change them out at a long-rest. This still goes in line with the theme that it's an innate practiced SPELL magic over learning and practicing the art of casting or being given your magic via worship/prayer/contract.

Unable to use any armor or special weapons like Bards, Warlocks, Clerics, and Druids: right. Wizards also suffer from this too. I see the lower HD, and lack of armor as a theme to allow someone to be more akin to a glass-cannon. This makes sense with the Wizard as-is, and also with the blasting power a Sorcerer may have as well. Honestly, I haven't really seen the complaint here as much as 'nondraconic subclasses suffer from survivability due to lack of armor and extra health'. However, for the low-low-low price of 2 spell points, you can use mage armor if you don't want to have it for your spells known.

Ritual Casting: Yep, this comes at a cost of spell points too, in the same ANYTHING category. I see this just as easily being feat-equivalent, so yeah.

Lower HD: Yeah, less health is still an issue that people aren't addressing other than 'nondraconic subclasses suffer from survivability due to lack of armor and extra health'. However, there is a subclass for that, and the need of concentration checks pushes you to focus on CON a little more than the D8 HD classes. Again, not sure this is as big a problem as people seem to think.

Their unique feature, metamagic, is unavailable until level 3, and is very limited in uses per day until level 6 or so...
Well, I think adding in an extra point at strategic levels... 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15. That adds in 6 points, and gives the sorcerer a little more flexibility in using metamagic later, but not as much early on - which I hope allows the use of that change to Font of Magic more. Metamagic is taxing, so is spontaneously casting spells, and you should get a little more oomph to make it happen!

No Arcane Recovery like Wizards get, nor similar features
Actually... The Arcane Recovery ability is weaker than Font of Magic in RAW. It's less recoverable spell levels and has to be done on a short rest rather than having the power at your fingertips like Font of Magic. Excepting that Metamagic runs off of the same powers - which is why I think extra sorcery points helps to alleviate this. Either way, this point is not exactly accurate imo other than that it is dedicated spell recovery.

tl;dr
Add to Font of Magic the ability cast any sorcerer spell for a cost of 2 s.points per level (upcastable) with no metamagic.
Add extra sorc points at 5,7,9,11,13 and 15.

What do you guys think?

[Trickery]

So, the main issue I'm running into with your fix is that it only addresses the last 2 issues on your list of CONs for sorcerer, and does not attempt to fix anything else that may be a problem for them. Further, with the point system, it is significantly weaker than if you convert the spell table over as-is, leading to 89 points of spells at level 20 for any full caster.

The main reasons I handled it the way I did were to ensure the the new version was simple but deep, different from existing classes, and that it still followed the spirit of a Sorcerer. If we merely address the weaknesses of a Sorcerer rather than working with them, we end up with something that looks a lot like a Bard or Wizard.

Sorcerers have always had fewer spells known and fixed spell lists. I assume both of these are part of the class design. They used to have more flexible spellcasting than other classes which is why I think giving them the spell point system is the right approach. The flexibility of my version of it makes up for the smaller number of total spell points. A Wizard does not have the option to cast Shield three times instead of casting Fireball once - this advantage should not be overlooked.

Ultimately, I think playtesting is needed. I'll test this myself if I get the chance.

(Note: By simple but deep, I mean easy to understand but providing many choices during play. It should ideally be like a game of chess such that players can engage with it at their own level of experience.)

[Aimeryan]

tl;dr
Add to Font of Magic the ability cast any sorcerer spell for a cost of 2 s.points per level (upcastable) with no metamagic.
Add extra sorc points at 5,7,9,11,13 and 15.

What do you guys think?

This would be normal Sorcerer system, modified Font Of Magic, correct? I think it could work, although I would probably just go with every odd level other than first for the extra sorc points (simpler and I think you would need those extra points to really have much impact).

[bendking]

I wouldn't say Sorcerer is a gimmick class more so than I would say it's a multi-class class.
Other than that, seems you're on the money with your analysis. I honestly don't understand why WotC shafted Sorcerers like this.
Perhaps if Flexible Casting was more efficient Sorcerers might be able to even the playing field with Wizards.
Also, Wizards just shouldn't have Arcane Recovery. It's so extra.

[Nhorianscum]

Many have pointed out that Sorcerers are weak this edition. They have more rework attempts than, perhaps, any other class.


Cons

Fewer spells known than a wizard
Much smaller spell list than a wizard
Unable to change spells known on a long rest like Clerics and Druids can
Unable to use any armor or special weapons like Bards, Warlocks, Clerics, and Druids
No ritual casting unlike Druids, Wizards, Bards, Clerics, and even some Warlocks
Lower HP than Bards, Warlocks, or Clerics
Their unique feature, metamagic, is unavailable until level 3, and is very limited in uses per day until level 6 or so
No Arcane Recovery like Wizards get, nor similar features

Pros

Metamagic
Innate Con saves (though they don't get Dex or Wis as a result)

That's about it. Sorcerers are basically Wizards with far fewer spells known, no ritual casting, no Arcane Recovery, and a much smaller spell list, all of which they trade for Metamagic. And the designers have gone to egregious lengths to limit Metamagic (bonus action spell rule, no twinning spells that can target more than one creature, etc.).

This thread was inspired by the many Sorcerer rework attempts. Most of them use the spell point model, which I think is the correct approach since it's close to the niche sorcerers used to have. However, I feel that most of the attempts are have two problems:

They're too complex
They either make the Sorcerer too much like a Wizard or too much like a Warlock

Warlocks are encouraged to blow all of their spell slots every encounter as these will come back on a short rest. Wizards are encouraged to play conservatively and save their spells for boss encounters - where they will blow all of their slots.

Ideally, a Sorcerer should be between the two. This is a simple hybrid approach.

Hybrid Sorcerer: Three Simple Changes

Sorcerers have no spell slots, but instead have Sorcery Points equal to Sorcerer Level * 2
Sorcerers recover Sorcery Points equal to Sorcerer level when they take a Short Rest, or all Sorcery Points when they take a Long Rest.
Sorcerers cast spells directly from Sorcery Points

Point cost = spell's level
Can only cast a specific spell of level 6 or higher once per day


This results in the Sorcerer casting more spells than a wizard per day at some levels, but only if:

The Sorcerer spends all of his sorcery points optimally
The Sorcerer mostly casts lower level spells so as not to burn through Sorcery Points too quickly
The Sorcerer is able to take two or more short rests that day at optimal times
The Sorcerer doesn't use any Metamagic
The Wizard doesn't cast any rituals

You have to take the wizard's Arcane Recovery and rituals into consideration as the Sorcerer does not have these and wizards get a lot of extra spell mileage out of these features. Arcane Recovery results in a Level 10 Wizard being able to cast 46 Sorcery Points worth of spells (multiply number of spell slots by their spell level, add 5 to total), where the Sorcerer could optimally cast just 40 Sorcery Points worth of spells that day with this system (Level*2 = 20, Plus 10 per two short rests). The Sorcerer's advantage is being able to cast spells of whatever level is appropriate for the moment.

Besides Arcane Recovery and Ritual Casting, the sorcerer's additional spells are also balanced by the Sorcerer's smaller spell list and much smaller number of spells known. It also makes the Sorcerer less reliant on Metamagic to provide its entire niche.

With this system, the Sorcerer is discouraged from blowing all of their sorcery points in a fight because they won't get all of their points back on a short rest, only half of them. The Sorcerer instead operates halfway between a Wizard and a Warlock, more careful than a Warlock but more carefree than a Wizard - an unoccupied niche.

This system is both simple and deep. The player will have an easy time understanding the mechanics but also has interesting decisions to make every encounter and every level. Do I spend my Sorcery Points on spells or on Metamagic? Do I pick more low-level spells that I can cast as needed, or more high-level spells that I can cast more sparingly? Do i take more than one 6th level spell so that I can cast extra 6th level spells per day but can only cast each one once, or do I focus on lower level spells that I can cast as I need them? And so on.

A lot of people are hesitant to change anything about the Sorcerer for fear of unbalancing the game. You don't need to worry about that sort of thing so much as long as every class has strengths and weaknesses compared to the others. This version of the Sorcerer is truly unique in 5e, does things other classes don't do, but also has several drawbacks compared to other full casters. Give this a try at the table and you'll see how easy and fun this system is to use.

Edit: small corrections, added Con saves to pros.

Looking at this your fix would give 20 points on a standard day at 5th level. By comparison a sorc as-is has 25 when they wake up at the same level.

Going to 11. New system hits 44 in 2 rests vs our sorc waking up with 58.

Even with all in slot conversion this "fix" is less efficient than base sorc and gives warlock casting in tier 4???

I am confused. Nothing here looks appealing at all.

[Talsin]

The main reasons I handled it the way I did were to ensure the the new version was simple but deep, different from existing classes, and that it still followed the spirit of a Sorcerer. If we merely address the weaknesses of a Sorcerer rather than working with them, we end up with something that looks a lot like a Bard or Wizard.

Sorcerers have always had fewer spells known and fixed spell lists. I assume both of these are part of the class design. They used to have more flexible spellcasting than other classes which is why I think giving them the spell point system is the right approach. The flexibility of my version of it makes up for the smaller number of total spell points. A Wizard does not have the option to cast Shield three times instead of casting Fireball once - this advantage should not be overlooked.

Ultimately, I think playtesting is needed. I'll test this myself if I get the chance.

(Note: By simple but deep, I mean easy to understand but providing many choices during play. It should ideally be like a game of chess such that players can engage with it at their own level of experience.)

I agree with the intent of having "simple but deep" mechanics. I think that's really important to the gameplay as a whole . However, giving sorcerer more of a resource to work with doesn't address the issues that are the majority of apparent problems (though I think people may disagree with those issues). I also agree that improving the spellpoint system makes sorcerer stronger, such as casting shield multiple times, however it still doesn't bite into the issue of how few spells a sorcerer can utilize at any one time.

I just wish we could tackle or pinpoint how to make 4-elements Monk better...

[Talsin]

This would be normal Sorcerer system, modified Font Of Magic, correct? I think it could work, although I would probably just go with every odd level other than first for the extra sorc points (simpler and I think you would need those extra points to really have much impact).

Yes, everything about sorcerer would be the same, except making a change to Font of Magic and the addition of 6 extra points.
I chose those 6 points as they are the levels when sorcerer only gets a new level of spells rather than any other bonus, and I didn't want to give out TOO many points, as the freedom of casting granted is fairly large...probably too large...

[paladinn]

I'm a huge fan of reworking the Sorcerer class. In 5e RAW, there's not a real justification for having it, when wizards have spontaneous casting. Divine souls Might be an exception, since they can access cleric spells (Maybe we need a "primal soul" to do the same with druid spells?)

I like the idea of combining spell points and sorcery points and using the pool for both spells and metamagic. I would also add the ability to downcast a spell; they can already upcast, I believe. Why can't a sorc cast a spell with a lower spell slot? A level 1 fireball might be useful against a few mooks.

In 3.x, a sorc was proficient with simple weapons; definitely bring that back.

Just my $.02 worth

Oh, I forgot one thing: give the sorcerer bonus sorcery/spell points for higher Charisma.

If Wizards can prepare more spells based on a high INT, sorcs should get a benefit for high CHA.

Yes, that would give a sorc more spells (or metamagic) per day. It was that way in 3.x as well.

[Trickery]

Oh, I forgot one thing: give the sorcerer bonus sorcery/spell points for higher Charisma.

If Wizards can prepare more spells based on a high INT, sorcs should get a benefit for high CHA.

Yes, that would give a sorc more spells (or metamagic) per day. It was that way in 3.x as well.

That's an interesting idea. One idea would be for sorcery points to be equal to level + CHA mod * 2, and recover half of the total on a short rest. That wouldn't be too much more complicated and would give sorcerers a little more power to work with. However, I'd be concerned about low levels. That feature works fine at level 10, but a sorcerer shouldn't have an extra three or six spell slots at level 1.

Maybe they could gain this feature around level 6 or so: bonus sorcery points (spell points) based on charisma mod. Or simply gain a feature where they can regain sorcery points equal to 2*CHA as a bonus action once per day.

[Aimeryan]

What if you could cast a Sorcerer spell not known a number of times equal to Cha mod per long rest? That is more comparable to the Wizard Int mod bonus prepared spells.

[Kane0]

For reference what I proposed for the sorc:
- Handful of extra spells known
- Use DMG spell points (including higher level casting restriction), take away sorcery points and Font of Magic
- Recover spell points equal to Cha mod each short rest
- Metamagic draws on spell points
- 2 metamagic at level 2, one extra at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17
- Level 10 can cast any sorcerer spell once per long rest even if it isn't known
- Level 20 use the level 10 feature once per short rest

So yeah, very similar ideas.

[Trickery]

What if you could cast a Sorcerer spell not known a number of times equal to Cha mod per long rest? That is more comparable to the Wizard Int mod bonus prepared spells.

Issue I have is casting a spell the sorc doesn't know. That seems to go against the class design of carefully selecting a smaller number of spells - something I assume WotC intended.


For reference what I proposed for the sorc:
- Handful of extra spells known
- Use DMG spell points (including higher level casting restriction), take away sorcery points and Font of Magic
- Recover spell points equal to Cha mod each short rest
- Metamagic draws on spell points
- 2 metamagic at level 2, one extra at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17
- Level 10 can cast any sorcerer spell once per long rest even if it isn't known
- Level 20 use the level 10 feature once per short rest

So yeah, very similar ideas.

That's definitely similar. I think a lot of us lean in the direction of spell points for Sorcerers, in particular. It just seems to be the closest thing to the spell casting edge they used to have.

[Garresh]

For the life of me I don't understand why people say the Sorcerer is weak. You just have to understand that it does its own thing. It makes a poor blaster, and isn't a generalist. It's a specific flavor of utility caster that ramps up and overcharges certain spells. Because of this it can potentially be as good of a Face as the bard, if not better. It can be a better social manipulator due to subtle spell. And it can be one of the strongest straight supports due to the ability to twin spells like Polymorph, Greater Invis, ot Haste.

If it were to be buffed, I'd just let it gain the Wizard spell list. Maybe a few more spells known. But it's extremely powerful in its focus. It's just way less flexible because of that. To date the strongest support character I played was a sorcerer. Twin buff spells are absolutely insane.

[Talsin]

For the life of me I don't understand why people say the Sorcerer is weak. You just have to understand that it does its own thing. It makes a poor blaster, and isn't a generalist. It's a specific flavor of utility caster that ramps up and overcharges certain spells. Because of this it can potentially be as good of a Face as the bard, if not better. It can be a better social manipulator due to subtle spell. And it can be one of the strongest straight supports due to the ability to twin spells like Polymorph, Greater Invis, ot Haste.

If it were to be buffed, I'd just let it gain the Wizard spell list. Maybe a few more spells known. But it's extremely powerful in its focus. It's just way less flexible because of that. To date the strongest support character I played was a sorcerer. Twin buff spells are absolutely insane.

I think people are trying to tie in the flavor of a sorcerer more into it's capability. Yes, it's one of the best support classes around between twinned buffs and out-of-combat potential. However, taking from the description of what one is to expect from a sorcerer, it's expected to have the ability to really bring the pain in blasting combat rather than the more party-friendly version of a wizard.

The sorcerer as written is an army shovel advertised as an M16, and compared to the jack-of-all-trades(and a master of 1) Wizard. People get bummed out that the natural talent caster shines best illuminating others.

[Trickery]

It's extremely powerful in its focus. It's just way less flexible because of that. To date the strongest support character I played was a sorcerer. Twin buff spells are absolutely insane.

I want to specifically address the idea that the current Sorcerer is powerful. Is it actually the strongest buff character? Not exactly. It can Twin a strong buff or Extend an 8 hour buff to 16 hours before a rest. These are good options on a Divine Soul Sorcerer with access to Aid, Haste, and heals.

But do they really compare to what a Lore bard can do? I don't think so. Lore Bards can not only learn more spells and choose from every other class' spell list, they also have Bardic Inspiration. And Bardic Inspiration is a big deal, especially on a Lord Bard. I argue that it's just as big of a deal as Metamagic. But Bards also get a long list of other features to boot.

Similarly, Wizards have a number of advantages over Sorcerers. In brief, their advantages are more spells known, more spells prepared, Arcane Recovery, and a much larger spell list on top of having overall superior subclass features.

And, if we look at other full casters, we see a similar story. The Warlock has similar casting restrictions to the Sorcerer, but they also get pacts, invocations, higher HP, and some armor proficiencies. Metamagic isn't worth all of that.

Druids and clerics can change their spells known on a long rest, swapping with anything from their entire list. They also have higher HP, armor and weapon proficiencies, and features like Wildshaping or Channel Divinity. Metamagic isn't worth all of that.

Then there's ritual casting, which can't be overlooked. All of the above either get it automatically or can pick it up from a feature.

The question isn't whether Sorcerers are useful. The question is: do Sorcerers have good enough features to make up for their downsides compared to similar classes? I don't think that they do. I think they need at least one more feature that other full casters don't have in order to be competitive with those classes. Some variation on the spell point system is the most obvious and easiest solution.

[Nightgaun7]

It makes a poor blaster

People have come to expect Sorcerers to blow stuff up. If the class doesn't support that, it's badly designed.

[Aimeryan]

I don't think it is particularly to do with blasting; Warlocks already do that from ranged, while Paladins are the melee equivalent. Fighters are the pure mundane equivalent of both of those, although less nova and more consistently high DPR. All of those have much more restricted spell casting (or none at all), so it is quite expected that they focus on being better damage dealers.

The issue here is that the Sorcerer is not a good blaster as mentioned, but also not instead a good generalist like the other full casters. It can do something with extreme focus, like Twin buff, however, this just makes it a great multiclass because you really don't need more Sorcerer once you can do that. Where versatility is power, and dealing lots of damage is power, the Sorcerer is weak. Both of those have their limitations; preparation to bring to bear - the Sorcerer could instead reduce that limitation somewhat to achieve its power with its trademark spontaneous casting.

Personally, the niche I would see it fill is limited spontaneous versatility, flexibility of spell use within what it knows, and the extreme focus of metamagic with few spells known. I think the spell point variant merged with Sorcery points along with Con mod spontaneous versatility per day would achieve that.

[Talsin]

I don't think it is particularly to do with blasting; Warlocks already do that from ranged, while Paladins are the melee equivalent. Fighters are the pure mundane equivalent of both of those, although less nova and more consistently high DPR. All of those have much more restricted spell casting (or none at all), so it is quite expected that they focus on being better damage dealers.

The issue here is that the Sorcerer is not a good blaster as mentioned, but also not instead a good generalist like the other full casters. It can do something with extreme focus, like Twin buff, however, this just makes it a great multiclass because you really don't need more Sorcerer once you can do that. Where versatility is power, and dealing lots of damage is power, the Sorcerer is weak. Both of those have their limitations; preparation to bring to bear - the Sorcerer could instead reduce that limitation somewhat to achieve its power with its trademark spontaneous casting.

Personally, the niche I would see it fill is limited spontaneous versatility, flexibility of spell use within what it knows, and the extreme focus of metamagic with few spells known. I think the spell point variant merged with Sorcery points along with Con mod spontaneous versatility per day would achieve that.

I feel like we're heading to a weird place within the meta-analysis of the class-building concepts here.
Sorcerer feels like it's an amalgam of multiple classes.
Sorcery points based on Chi
Spell Selection based off of Warlock
Spell casting like a wizard, but also modifying them in a slightly different way...

If we're wanting to stay within the confines of what has already been built, why not add 1 metamagic and change a couple others: Spontaneous Casting for a cost of sorcery points(maybe 2/level), Empower now costs 2 but is a reroll of all the damage dice, and Twin can double any spell but still requires separate targets.
It gives a variability people are asking for in what a sorcerer can cast and increases the blasting potential on single and multiple targets.
Of course this comes at a cost of another metamagic choice...

[paladinn]

In 3x, when sorcerers were introduced, wizards had the edge in versatility (spells "known"/prepared/whatever), while sorcerers had more spells per day (and were spontaneous as opposed to "Vancian"). I think that is the direction that a redesign should go, especially since both are spontaneous casters. Sorcerers also had access to simple weapons, since they weren't quite so "bookish". I absolutely Loved the 3x sorcerer at the time.

I know the thought in 5e was to tie a sorcerer to a specific power source/bloodline, such as a dragon or celestial or elemental ancester. That's precisely what Pathfinder did, and I've yet to see a good "generic" sorcerer build.

[Trickery]

We seem to disagree about what the Sorcerer should be. I'm sure WotC had the same problem internally (possibly with a helping of not liking the class in the first place).

I came up with my idea under the assumption that the Sorcerer is supposed to carefully select a small number of spells from a smaller spell list than the Wizard. I assumed that was why they didn't get Ritual Casting and that the class is intended to operate like an extreme specialist. That's why I thought spell points made sense but didn't like the idea of Sorcerers being able to cast spells that they didn't take.

We probably should establish what we want for the class.

[Man_Over_Game]

Step 1: Sorcerers get "origin spells". That is, extra spells they get as part of their origin that they know and don't count towards their spells known.

Step 2: Sorcerers can cast their origin spells with Sorcery Points equal to the spell's level. This is cheaper than spending spell slots. Now you can be a Storm Sorcerer spamming Thunderwave and Fog Cloud and actually feel like a Storm Sorcerer.

[Talsin]

We seem to disagree about what the Sorcerer should be. I'm sure WotC had the same problem internally (possibly with a helping of not liking the class in the first place).

I came up with my idea under the assumption that the Sorcerer is supposed to carefully select a small number of spells from a smaller spell list than the Wizard. I assumed that was why they didn't get Ritual Casting and that the class is intended to operate like an extreme specialist. That's why I thought spell points made sense but didn't like the idea of Sorcerers being able to cast spells that they didn't take.

We probably should establish what we want for the class.

I agree that we should establish what we want. I figured that was what was intended in the original post by laying out the grievances of the class. Based off of previous posts, it seems the main issues are:

1 How many times a sorcerer can cast in a day (or even per short rest)
2 How different spells a sorcerer can cast/has known at any time.
3 How much damage a sorcerer can put out at any time.

Would you agree with these?


Step 1: Sorcerers get "origin spells". That is, extra spells they get as part of their origin that they know and don't count towards their spells known.

Step 2: Sorcerers can cast their origin spells with Sorcery Points equal to the spell's level. This is cheaper than spending spell slots.

My problem with this is that it feels remarkable akin to Cleric, or Pathfinder Sorc and makes the sorcery points that much more valuable, which seems is an already slim resource (though I think that's intentional like with Monk). Further, it still leaves any sorcerer of the same origin feeling rather similar to one another.

[Man_Over_Game]

My problem with this is that it feels remarkable akin to Cleric, or Pathfinder Sorc and makes the sorcery points that much more valuable, which seems is an already slim resource (though I think that's intentional like with Monk). Further, it still leaves any sorcerer of the same origin feeling rather similar to one another.

Sorcerers can always make more, by converting spell slots. It's not the most efficient use, but it could be worthwhile. Casting a level 1 spell 5 times might be more valuable than casting a level 5 spell once.

Additionally, Sorcerers can still pick other spells, and still pick their proficiencies and backgrounds. It's not much different than the fact that Paladins all have the same methods of fighting, use the same two weapons, and spend their spell slots the same way, casting the same 2 spells they'd ever cast. I understand that two Sorcerers from the same origin being similar it is a concern, but is it a problem?

[Edit]I suppose another way you could do it is make it so that using a Metamagic on an Origin spell costs 1 less Sorcery Point. It simultaneously stretches Sorcery points out further while also allowing two Sorcerers from the same origin to be diverse (as their playstyles change drastically based on Metamagic choices).

[Master O'Laughs]

Sorcerers can always make more, by converting spell slots. It's not the most efficient use, but it could be worthwhile. Casting a level 1 spell 5 times might be more valuable than casting a level 5 spell once.

Additionally, Sorcerers can still pick other spells, and still pick their proficiencies and backgrounds. It's not much different than the fact that Paladins all have the same methods of fighting, use the same two weapons, and spend their spell slots the same way, casting the same 2 spells they'd ever cast. I understand that two Sorcerers from the same origin being similar it is a concern, but is it a problem?

My issue with the using sorcery points to create spell slots is the fact it then prevents you from using either meta magic or or certain sorcerous origin class features. Yes you can create a whole bunch of extra slots at the beginning of the day but then you cannot modify them. Meanwhile, the wizard if he gets 1 short rest, can have recharge his spells to be able to cast just as many spells as you could create with sorcery points, AND has all of his school features.

At higher levels, the issue becomes worse as the wizard starts getting free castings of different spells further allowing them to "out cast" the sorcerer.

[Warlush]

Great use of "egregious".

[Man_Over_Game]

My issue with the using sorcery points to create spell slots is the fact it then prevents you from using either meta magic or or certain sorcerous origin class features. Yes you can create a whole bunch of extra slots at the beginning of the day but then you cannot modify them. Meanwhile, the wizard if he gets 1 short rest, can have recharge his spells to be able to cast just as many spells as you could create with sorcery points, AND has all of his school features.

At higher levels, the issue becomes worse as the wizard starts getting free castings of different spells further allowing them to "out cast" the sorcerer.

My earlier post was based on an idea of a modified Sorcerer, using a more efficient means to cast spells. It wasn't based on the current Sorcerer (from which I think your post is about).

[Trickery]

I agree that we should establish what we want. I figured that was what was intended in the original post by laying out the grievances of the class. Based off of previous posts, it seems the main issues are:

1 How many times a sorcerer can cast in a day (or even per short rest)
2 How different spells a sorcerer can cast/has known at any time.
3 How much damage a sorcerer can put out at any time.

Would you agree with these?


I can't speak for others, but my specific issue is this: Sorcerers have too few pros compared to their cons. I don't think addressing cons is the right approach - else the class will feel too similar to an X (X being Wizard, Bard, Warlock, Cleric, etc.). Rather, I think they need more pros.

And, in choosing what pros to give a Sorcerer, I think we need to keep the Sorcerer's identity in mind. It would be weird to give Barbarians a teleportation ability because it doesn't fit their Class Fantasy. Similarly, there must be some Class Fantasy that Sorcerers have.

The simplest addition I could think of was spell points. Flexible spell slot usage used to be their niche in 3.5e, and spell points capture the same feel. Regardless of exactly how many spell points they have or how they regenerate them, I think this is a viable direction for the class. My version just further refines spell points into a simple mechanic that regenerates at a rate halfway between a Wizard and a Warlock.

In brief, that's why I suggested what I did.

[Man_Over_Game]

I can't speak for others, but my specific issue is this: Sorcerers have too few pros compared to their cons. I don't think addressing cons is the right approach - else the class will feel too similar to an X (X being Wizard, Bard, Warlock, Cleric, etc.). Rather, I think they need more pros.

And, in choosing what pros to give a Sorcerer, I think we need to keep the Sorcerer's identity in mind. It would be weird to give Barbarians a teleportation ability because it doesn't fit their Class Fantasy. Similarly, there must be some Class Fantasy that Sorcerers have.

The simplest addition I could think of was spell points. Flexible spell slot usage used to be their niche in 3.5e, and spell points capture the same feel. Regardless of exactly how many spell points they have or how they regenerate them, I think this is a viable direction for the class. My version just further refines spell points into a simple mechanic that regenerates at a rate halfway between a Wizard and a Warlock. In brief, that's why I suggested what I did.

See, I think that what makes Sorcerers stand out isn't a weird mechanical aspect, but their origin story. Sorcerers are made, not learned. Where they get their magic from, and how they use it, seems like a bigger deal than some weird magic manipulation mechanics.

Or, from another perspective:

You have a Dragon Sorcerer and a Storm Sorcerer. Which of these seems more apt?:
They both are adept at manipulating magic in ways that other casters cannot (Casting spells without saying words, or casting them quickly, and being overall more capable with magic).
They both have special properties related to the origin of their magic (Casting magic that lets them grow wings or fly with the wind).


Personally, when I play a Draconic Sorcerer, I care more about the "Draconic" than the "Sorcerer".

[Mjolnirbear]

I see some fun things in here.

For me, a sorcerer IS magic. I don't even take Arcana on my sorcerers, because Arcana is 'bookworm rubbish'.

My first idea is that sorcerers don't need a focus for their material components, except the expensive ones. This is at first level.

A second idea is that a sorcerer can cast a sorcerer spell they do not know. The idea is to add some versatility. I'd think 1/day, or 1/SR. Honestly not sure, but if it's per short rest I'd definitely impose an extra cost, probably spending a hit die and taking damage.

I'd add more metamagics known and more metamagic options. Because flexible magic isn't that great if players always choose quickened or twinned.

[Talsin]

See, I think that what makes Sorcerers stand out isn't a weird mechanical aspect, but their origin story. Sorcerers are made, not learned. Where they get their magic from, and how they use it, seems like a bigger deal than some weird magic manipulation mechanics.

Or, from another perspective:

You have a Dragon Sorcerer and a Storm Sorcerer. Which of these seems more apt?:
They both are adept at manipulating magic in ways that other casters cannot (Casting spells without saying words, or casting them quickly, and being overall more capable with magic).
They both have special properties related to the origin of their magic (Casting magic that lets them grow wings or fly with the wind).


Personally, when I play a Draconic Sorcerer, I care more about the "Draconic" than the "Sorcerer".

When looking at a sorcerer, I see there are a few things they get on the chassis:

Full casting
Font of Magic (Sorcery Points for additional casting)
Choices of Metamagic (which runs off of the same sorcery points to instead modify spells)

Subclasses get you a few options from there, but do not drastically change how the chassis interacts with casting spells - generally.
Draconic gives some generic buffs (armor, health, resistance, damage, flight)
Wild is a mixed bag, but can overall be a benefit to your rolls SOMETIMES making you more effective
Divine Soul more variety and staying power (spell options, healing bonus, flight, more effective hp)
Shadow GIVES A SPELL! staying power, a way to increase you chances of having a spell succeed, mobility, and more staying power.
Storm gives you mobility, thorns, some defensive buffs, and flight
(Wow, sorc's get a lot of flight as a capstone!)

Compare this to a wizard, who's subclasses are more intertwined with the spells they cast.
Or cleric (or druid really) whose subclass gives them specific variability of casting, and a playstyle that is more combat or casting.

I can see that adding spells based on the subclass would be a good way to add more variability to those casting and also make the subclass feel more impactful to the character as a whole. Additionally the added benefit of cheaper casting can give a sorcerer more spells to sling, albeit at cost of a resource that would allow it a difference of how it can cast spells compared to any other caster.

To me, sorcerers in 5e are more recognizable by the use of metamagic and font of magic abilities than their origin. Their dangerous, unpredictable, and intuitive use of magic is what separates them from other magic users. I think that kind of freedom of casting can help to "fix" the class, hence my method from before.


Hmm... Between Trickery, you, and me, we all have different approaches and feels for this class.
I think they could all work too...

[Trickery]

I thought that rereading the Sorcerer flavor text on D&D Beyond might be helpful - not very, but I did get a little from it.

The class design elements seem to be that they use Raw, unexplained magic that they don't learn, don't choose, don't study, and that is closely tied to their origin. Their power is internal. "By learning to harness and channel their own inborn magic, they can discover new and staggering ways to unleash that power."

Based on that, Sorcerous Origins should have conferred certain spells in the way that Cleric Domains do. And I think it would be a good idea to copy that template if one were going for a full rework of the class.

But I also think that spell points make perfect sense for a Sorcerer, more so than any other class. If their magic is coming from within them and they learn ways to unleash it, then their power should function like mana, with their spells costing a specific amount of magical power.

If I were going to redesign the class entirely, I would use the sorcery point system I described in the OP, but I would also add Sorcerous Origin spells every two levels. Because you were born with that magic, casting a Sorcerous Origin spell would cost one less sorcery point than usual (level requirements wouldn't change).

However, that's a much larger rework rather than a simple fix. In particular, choosing which spells should go with which origins would be a point of wide debate, particularly for the Draconic Sorcerer. In fact, that Sorcerer might need a new feature to let them change spell damage types to match their own Draconic origin so that White Dragon Sorcerers could throw cold fireballs, etc.

[Talsin]

I thought that rereading the Sorcerer flavor text on D&D Beyond might be helpful - not very, but I did get a little from it.

The class design elements seem to be that they use Raw, unexplained magic that they don't learn, don't choose, don't study, and that is closely tied to their origin. Their power is internal. "By learning to harness and channel their own inborn magic, they can discover new and staggering ways to unleash that power."

Based on that, Sorcerous Origins should have conferred certain spells in the way that Cleric Domains do. And I think it would be a good idea to copy that template if one were going for a full rework of the class.

But I also think that spell points make perfect sense for a Sorcerer, more so than any other class. If their magic is coming from within them and they learn ways to unleash it, then their power should function like mana, with their spells costing a specific amount of magical power.

If I were going to redesign the class entirely, I would use the sorcery point system I described in the OP, but I would also add Sorcerous Origin spells every two levels. Because you were born with that magic, casting a Sorcerous Origin spell would cost one less sorcery point than usual (level requirements wouldn't change).

However, that's a much larger rework rather than a simple fix. In particular, choosing which spells should go with which origins would be a point of wide debate, particularly for the Draconic Sorcerer. In fact, that Sorcerer might need a new feature to let them change spell damage types to match their own Draconic origin so that White Dragon Sorcerers could throw cold fireballs, etc.

I think we may have come full circle then. We can see that there are fixes that would work that are not simple, but we still desire a simple fix. I think your method, the spell points method, is good if it's a whole conversion. The entire class is just built on spell points and regenerates some on a short rest. It doesn't bring the same kind of diversity in casting that may follow with the flavor, but it is simple and concise, while allowing for more variable casting of power.

[Trickery]

I think we may have come full circle then. We can see that there are fixes that would work that are not simple, but we still desire a simple fix. I think your method, the spell points method, is good if it's a whole conversion. The entire class is just built on spell points and regenerates some on a short rest. It doesn't bring the same kind of diversity in casting that may follow with the flavor, but it is simple and concise, while allowing for more variable casting of power.

Thanks.

Yeah, I don't think there's a single simple thing that would make the class fully coherent with its Class Fantasy. I do love simple fixes, but this one probably needs a more comprehensive rework.

And only WotC seems to be able to get away with full reworks. A lot of people play with small tweaks like Critical Failure tables and the like, but anything longer than a paragraph or two is seldom widely used. For example, Revised Ranger wouldn't be a well-known thing if it didn't come from WotC.

Maybe WotC will read this thread and others and come up with their own Revised Sorcerer, eventually. Or maybe 6e will have a better Sorcerer.

[Aimeryan]

The simplest addition I could think of was spell points. Flexible spell slot usage used to be their niche in 3.5e, and spell points capture the same feel. Regardless of exactly how many spell points they have or how they regenerate them, I think this is a viable direction for the class. My version just further refines spell points into a simple mechanic that regenerates at a rate halfway between a Wizard and a Warlock.

In brief, that's why I suggested what I did.

Your spell point system is a fair bit stronger than the DMG version at very early levels, but thereafter becomes weaker than the DMG version (by a substantial amount at the high levels).

For flexibility, the DMG spell point system is actually superior as it remains competitive with spell slots, with the flexibility being particularly notable in Tier 2. That said, the flexibility improvement over spell slots drops off in Tier 3 as the amount of varying spell slots combined with the ability to upcast heavily mitigates the issue.

If flexibility in spell resource usage was the solution by itself then the spell point variant would already have been the solution. For me, the issue instead is the severe lack of versatility in levelled spell use combined with weak options outside of levelled spell use - which means if you don't have the right spells you are quite weak. Classes that don't rely on levelled spells tend to rely on damage output, because this is rarely not useful. The classes that do rely on levelled spells are versatile and can switch out spells.

My solution would be to use the Cha mod (thus scaling with levels to some degree) to allow for limited spontaneous use of unknown Sorcerer spells. It covers the weakness without providing more power when they are already strong. Whether or not people want to also use the spell point variant (which I personally feel is thematic) would be up to them.

[Trickery]

Your spell point system is a fair bit stronger than the DMG version at very early levels, but thereafter becomes weaker than the DMG version (by a substantial amount at the high levels).

For flexibility, the DMG spell point system is actually superior as it remains competitive rather than dropping off relative to spell slots somewhere around mid levels and is also not overpowered at level 1 and 2. The flexibility is mostly lost in the high levels as the amount of varying spell slots combined with the ability to upcast heavily mitigates the issue.

If flexibility in spell resource usage was the solution by itself then the spell point variant would already have been the solution. For me, the issue instead is the severe lack of versatility in spell use combined with weak options outside of spell use - which means if you don't have the right spells you are quite weak. Classes that don't rely on levelled spells tend to rely on damage output, because this is rarely not useful. The classes that do rely on levelled spells are versatile and can switch out spells.

My solution would be to use the Cha mod (thus scaling with levels to some degree) to allow for limited spontaneous use of unknown Sorcerer spells. It covers the weakness without providing more power when they are already strong. Whether or not people want to also use the spell point variant (which I personally feel is thematic) would be up to them.

That's fair. I'd prefer Origin spells over X castings of spells the Sorcerer doesn't actually know. My interpretation of the Class Fantasy is that Sorcerers are specialists with innate magic rather than fonts of random magic, but it could just as easily go the other way. Actually, spontaneous casting sounds like a good Wild Magic Sorcerer feature.

There are three main reasons why I didn't go with the existing Spell Point system. The first is that it's not as easy or intuitive. Spell cost is random - 2 points, 3, 13, etc. It's not easy for a new player to learn. Second is that it doesn't interact well with Sorcery Points. Presumably players would end up with two separate pools of resources. Third is that the Spell Point system was intended for all spellcasters. I think Sorcerers should have something specific to their class.

I suspect I lowballed the scaling. Spell slot scaling is...weird, numerically. It might make sense to start at 1.5 times level and, at later levels, go up to 3 times level in total sorcery points. Or we could stick with two times but allow Sorcerers to also regain an additional 2*CHA sorcery points on a short rest after level 6. I'd have to experiment.

[GorogIrongut]

If I were intending to keep my Sorceror changes to a streamlined minimum, I would:
1. Institute Spell Points as per the DMG (this in and of itself should make the Sorceror more than able to compete)
2. Allow them to choose from all cantrips when choosing their cantrips... not just sorceror ones.
3. Sorcerors are able to choose extra cantrips as per their Cha modifier.

That allows enough variability so that they've got something to do in any situation, without loading them up with a wish list of subclass spells or special extra boosts.

[Aimeryan]

If I were intending to keep my Sorceror changes to a streamlined minimum, I would:
1. Institute Spell Points as per the DMG (this in and of itself should make the Sorceror more than able to compete)
2. Allow them to choose from all cantrips when choosing their cantrips... not just sorceror ones.
3. Sorcerors are able to choose extra cantrips as per their Cha modifier.

That allows enough variability so that they've got something to do in any situation, without loading them up with a wish list of subclass spells or special extra boosts.

Cantrips don't do the job unless you use invocations to power them up. Many experienced players will tell you that you are often better off using the Dodge action than using a cantrip in combat - you maintain concentration on important spells and you don't burden your team with healing/raising you.

Now for out of combat, they have some use. However, they still tend to be fairly minor. Your changes basically fall back to 'Use the Spell Point variant', which is fine, but doesn't solve the real issues.

[paladinn]

I say that if we go with spell points for sorcerers, just add the spell points and sorcery points, add the CHA bonus, and that's the total magic for the day (or long rest). The player can use for spells or metamagic as s/he wants. Do Not change the number of spells or cantrips known. Keep whatever bonus spells s/he gets from origin.

Wizards would still have more spells known (versatility), but sorcerers would have more magic/day. And let the sorcs have simple weapons. Is that enough to differentiate from the wizard? More, is it enough to justify it as a separate class?

Seems to me that 5e has a problem with maintaining classes because they've been in D&D almost forever (i.e. rangers) or to facilitate multiclassing (sorcerers). Not sure either is a good reason for a complete class.

Ultimately I'd love to see wizards and sorcerers combined into a Mage class. Spells known would be just like a wizard; spell points like we're proposing for sorcerers, including metamagic. No creating spell slots. Spell level limited to whatever is available for your caster level. Bonus spells known if you specialize in a school or have a sorcerous origin. The schools/origins become the subclasses.

I don't see this as overpowered, because it's still nerfed compared to 3.x.

[Amechra]

An idea I've had is to just give Sorcerers Pact Magic and then increasing the number of Sorcery points they can hold at a time by either their Constitution or Charisma modifiers. Even if you forced them to buy the highest level spell they could, they'd end up capable of tossing together an extra slot or two every day at the start of their career, all the way up to being able to effectively save up spell slots from short rest to short rest at higher levels.

Give them a bump at 5th level (to cover for the increased cost for spell slots), and you've got something that I think could be pretty decent.

[paladinn]

Hey.. give the sorcerer eldritch blast and a couple EB incantations. No more need for the warlock class. And there's a "generic" sorcerer for you!

[Trickery]

Hey.. give the sorcerer eldritch blast and a couple EB incantations. No more need for the warlock class. And there's a "generic" sorcerer for you!

I remember seeing this suggestion before. There was a big homebrew that created a hybrid warlock - sorcerer that basically had short rest spell points, invocations, and Metamagic. Seems to me that getting the patrons / origins to work would be a pain.

Thematically, I think the warlock and sorcerer ought be separate classes. The Warlock cuts a deal to gain power while the Sorcerer is born with power. Both benefit quite a bit from spell point systems. The warlock might even get more out of it considering that certain spells, such as Shield, basically become unfeasible for them to use.

[ImperiousLeader]

I don't think Sorcerers need as much work as everyone here is describing. I've been playing one in a party with a Wizard and I haven't felt gimped by comparison.

Also, to me, a Sorcerer is more of a specialist. So, rather than grant more spells (okay, I could see increasing the known spells by 1 or 2), I'd lean into Metamagic. There should be more options, and Sorcerers should learn more Metamagic. Energy Substitution, maybe a Persistent Spell (which removes Concentration from a self-only spell), a few more enhancers for different types of spells. This, to me, makes the Sorcerer more unique. Any Bard or Wizard or Warlock can follow the formula to cast a Magic Missile. But I don't just cast it, I make Magic Missiles that also explode. Or send off reverberating shock waves that deafen foes.

The other thing that Sorcerers really need is unique spells. Right now, their list is a subset of Wizard spells with a few Druid spells for taste (actually, I think they got one or two in Xanathar's Guide). I'd give them some potent self-only transmutations, I'd give them a version of Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation from 3.5.

[paladinn]

The other thing that Sorcerers really need is unique spells. Right now, their list is a subset of Wizard spells with a few Druid spells for taste (actually, I think they got one or two in Xanathar's Guide). I'd give them some potent self-only transmutations, I'd give them a version of Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation from 3.5.

I think that was the rationale behind making the Divine Soul into a sorc subclass. DS's get cleric spells, which definitely differentiates from wizards. Maybe we should have a Primal Soul (druid spells)? What would we call a sorc with Bard spells? Bardic Soul sounds kinda dumb.

[8wGremlin]

I think that was the rationale behind making the Divine Soul into a sorc subclass. DS's get cleric spells, which definitely differentiates from wizards. Maybe we should have a Primal Soul (druid spells)? What would we call a sorc with Bard spells? Bardic Soul sounds kinda dumb.

You could do this with all of them:

Sorcerer + cleric list = Divine Soul
Sorcerer + druid list = Shamanic Soul
Sorcerer + bard list = Sublime Soul (Sublime, Virtuoso were old bard prestige classes in 3.5)
Sorcerer + ranger = Wild Soul
Sorcerer + paladin = Bound Soul (bound as in to an Oath)
Sorcerer + warlock = Occult Soul
Sorcerer + wizard = Arcane Soul

They have exactly the same subclass as the Divine soul, but they just get access to the spell list of the other classes.
Yes the Arcane Soul is probably broken due to the nature of the Wizards spell list (see other threads about this).

But if it's your campaign do what you want. I'd love to hear from you about it.

[Trickery]

I think that was the rationale behind making the Divine Soul into a sorc subclass. DS's get cleric spells, which definitely differentiates from wizards.

I think it was actually so they could add a Favored Soul into the game. Favored Souls have existed in some D&D material and are the Sorcerer version of a Cleric. That's my guess as to the inspiration.

However, Favored Souls had light and medium armor as well as proficiency with the weapon associated with their deity, and they got some weapon abilities for free. So they were actually closer in playstyle to a 5e Celestial Warlock that happened to go Blade Pact, in my opinion.

Divine Soul having access to the entire Cleric spell list was, presumably, already powerful enough compared to the other Sorcerous origins. If they had armor proficiencies, a weapon proficiency, and extra attack on top of that, they'd be quite a bit stronger than other options.

[paladinn]

You could do this with all of them:

Sorcerer + cleric list = Divine Soul
Sorcerer + druid list = Shamanic Soul
Sorcerer + bard list = Sublime Soul (Sublime, Virtuoso were old bard prestige classes in 3.5)
Sorcerer + ranger = Wild Soul
Sorcerer + paladin = Bound Soul (bound as in to an Oath)
Sorcerer + warlock = Occult Soul
Sorcerer + wizard = Arcane Soul
[/COLOR]

Divine Soul is there. Wish the spells available to a Nature cleric, would there need to be a druid equivalent? What does a druid get that a nature cleric doesn't (besides wildshape)?

Arcane Soul could be a "generic" sorcerer. Does opening up the Wizard spell list really OP the class?

The 5e Bard list might be good; but I'm not sure "Bardic Soul" works as a name. And "Musical Soul" sounds like James Brown.

Paladins, rangers and warlocks don't have that much to add to a subclass, IMHO. Well warlocks have eldritch blast and invocations, but not sure how that would work here. But then, I want to make EB into a cantrip anyway..lol

[8wGremlin]

Divine Soul is there. Wish the spells available to a Nature cleric, would there need to be a druid equivalent? What does a druid get that a nature cleric doesn't (besides wildshape)?

A lot of different spells. and yes this is about bringing the other flavours of caster to Sorcerer, and using Sorcerer as a base.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here?


Arcane Soul could be a "generic" sorcerer. Does opening up the Wizard spell list really OP the class?

The Wizard list is a keep feature of the wizard class, it usually has more potent spells on it, or so it is said.


The 5e Bard list might be good; but I'm not sure "Bardic Soul" works as a name. And "Musical Soul" sounds like James Brown.

I didn't mention bardic soul, so unsure why you quoted me here. Sublime was used as this is harks back to earlier editions where there were prestige classes that the bard could become.


Paladins, rangers and warlocks don't have that much to add to a subclass, IMHO.

You'd be suprised, and why limit them to not having it available. many classes like some of the excellent paladin, ranger and warlock spells, which are potent, but then they would loose some of the benefits of higher levels spells.


Well warlocks have eldritch blast and invocations, but not sure how that would work here. But then, I want to make EB into a cantrip anyway..lol

um, Eldritch Blast is a cantrip?

[Nightgaun7]

I don't see this as overpowered, because it's still nerfed compared to 3.x.

This is a terrible justification for anything.

[paladinn]

The Wizard list is a keep feature of the wizard class, it usually has more potent spells on it, or so it is said.

Is the Wizard list really much more potent? I always thought the Wizard and Sorc spell lists were pretty similar. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.



I didn't mention bardic soul, so unsure why you quoted me here. Sublime was used as this is harks back to earlier editions where there were prestige classes that the bard could become.

I just don't know about the name. "Sublime" means excellent or awe-inspiring. Not sure if that's a great subclass name.



You'd be suprised, and why limit them to not having it available. many classes like some of the excellent paladin, ranger and warlock spells, which are potent, but then they would loose some of the benefits of higher levels spells.

The various paladin and ranger "spells" seem so geared toward those classes. I was thinking the sorcerer variants should stick to full-caster classes. I would think a sorcerer (whatever flavor) would want to avoid melee, so why would s/he want a smite-spell?



um, Eldritch Blast is a cantrip?

I know; but if it was made into a more generic cantrip, a caster could power it up by using spell slots/points. Kind of like a paladin puts spell slots into a smite.

[Trickery]

Is the Wizard list really much more potent? I always thought the Wizard and Sorc spell lists were pretty similar. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

Yes. The Wizard spell list is the #1 reason to play the class along with their large number of spells known and strong subclasses. Wizards have many spells on their list that nobody else can cast, and they have access to far more (and far more potent) rituals than any other else as well (not counting tome warlocks in theory, but in practice the wizard often has more rituals).

Hand the Wizard spell list to anyone else, especially a Druid or a Cleric, and it can get very out of hand.

Just in case I haven't driven the point home enough: if a sorcererous origin had no feature other than access to the wizard spell list, it would be the best origin.

[paladinn]

Yes. The Wizard spell list is the #1 reason to play the class along with their large number of spells known and strong subclasses. Wizards have many spells on their list that nobody else can cast, and they have access to far more (and far more potent) rituals than any other else as well (not counting tome warlocks in theory, but in practice the wizard often has more rituals).

Hand the Wizard spell list to anyone else, especially a Druid or a Cleric, and it can get very out of hand.

Just in case I haven't driven the point home enough: if a sorcererous origin had no feature other than access to the wizard spell list, it would be the best origin.

Wow, thanks for the heads up! I guess I was thinking of 3.x, where the 2 classes had the same spell list.

Looking at the PHB, I'm a little puzzled why they gave some spells to the Wizard and not the Sorcerer. Specifically something like Wall of Force would seem applicable to both.

I noticed there are a (very) few spells that the Sorcerer alone has. But they aren't that much to speak of.

Most intriguing..

[Kane0]

Seems to me that 5e has a problem with maintaining classes because they've been in D&D almost forever (i.e. rangers) or to facilitate multiclassing (sorcerers). Not sure either is a good reason for a complete class.

Ultimately I'd love to see wizards and sorcerers combined into a Mage class. Spells known would be just like a wizard; spell points like we're proposing for sorcerers, including metamagic. No creating spell slots. Spell level limited to whatever is available for your caster level. Bonus spells known if you specialize in a school or have a sorcerous origin. The schools/origins become the subclasses.


You don't want to do that. By cutting out and/or merging entire classes you are drastically reducing your design space to work with as well as the amount of different content players have to choose from.
It's the same discussion that comes up every time someone says 'Druids are just variant clerics' or 'ranger should be a fighter subclass'. That is thematically true, but not necessarily mechanically true. Trying to strongarm class mechanics together leads to all sorts of problems rather than simply correcting the things that make people say 'well I may as well just play X instead then'. Baby with the bathwater and all that.

[ImperiousLeader]

I think that was the rationale behind making the Divine Soul into a sorc subclass. DS's get cleric spells, which definitely differentiates from wizards. Maybe we should have a Primal Soul (druid spells)? What would we call a sorc with Bard spells? Bardic Soul sounds kinda dumb.

Ugh, that's what Pathfinder 2 is trying and I dislike it intensely. It's also not what I said I wanted. Every class that gains spellcasting in the PHB, except for the Sorcerer has spells unique to them. There are Paladin only spells. Ranger only spells. And sure, the Bard can get them, but the point is that the Sorcerer has no spells that are unique to the Sorcerer. Gaining Cleric spells, or Bard spells doesn't fix that.

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[Kane0]

Ugh, that's what Pathfinder 2 is trying and I dislike it intensely. It's also not what I said I wanted. Every class that gains spellcasting in the PHB, except for the Sorcerer has spells unique to them. There are Paladin only spells. Ranger only spells. And sure, the Bard can get them, but the point is that the Sorcerer has no spells that are unique to the Sorcerer. Gaining Cleric spells, or Bard spells doesn't fix that.

You gotta admit its a smart design move though. Maintaining four spell lists is far easier than maintaining [# of classes with access to magic] spell lists, especially with the PF approach to splat content.

[ImperiousLeader]

Looking at the PHB, I'm a little puzzled why they gave some spells to the Wizard and not the Sorcerer. Specifically something like Wall of Force would seem applicable to both.

I noticed there are a (very) few spells that the Sorcerer alone has. But they aren't that much to speak of.

Most intriguing..

There are actually a few commonalities, and at least one is fairly justifiable. A lot of Wizard spells that require expensive material components and are rituals are not on the Sorcerer list. And that's somewhat reasonable, though it means Sorcerers don't get Shapechange, which is utterly ridiculous. How is it that my Draconic Sorcerer cannot change into an actual frickin' Dragon?!? :smallfurious:

But the one that really bugs me, and this is just in the PHB, they fixed it in Xanathar's Guide, is that every spell with a Wizard's name in it is not available to Sorcerers. So no Melf's Acid Arrow, screwing over Draconic Sorcerers that want Acid spells. No Evard's Tentacles, because only wizards can be into hentai. No Tasha's Hideous Laughter, which Bards get, I guess they paid for the DRM.

In exchange, there are a few spells from the Druid list that Sorcerers get that aren't on the Wizard list. The big surprise is Enhance Ability, which replaced Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace and similar 3.5 spells. Not a Wizard spell.


You gotta admit its a smart design move though. Maintaining four spell lists is far easier than maintaining [# of classes with access to magic] spell lists, especially with the PF approach to splat content.

Ugh. I don't want to derail, but the attempt to read the Pathfinder 2 playtest document was an exercise in frustration. I don't like the system.

[Zetakya]

Several Points to be made:

Firstly, not everything that is wrong with Sorcerers as a class is attributable to their spellcasting mechanics. Part of the problem is that their subclass options are all very limiting. Pretty much all of them are in the format "mummy shagged X creature and now I have a bonus to that creatures elemental damage type". The resulting damage lock is itself a hefty limitation on the Sorcerer's abilities.

Secondly, I think you are underpowering the Sorcerer at higher levels. Under your proposals, the Sorcerer has a total of 80 SP per day. The default PHB Sorcerer has 20 SP plus a total of 89 combined Spell Levels, for 109 equivalent Spellpower. You are missing about 25% of the Sorcerer's raw spellpower at top level.

Here is a comparison by level of the Raw Equivalent Spellpower (RES) available per day to the original Sorcerer and your proposal (Format: Current Version/Your Version)


1st: 2/4
2nd: 5/8
3rd: 11/12
4th: 14/16
5th: 21/20
6th: 25/24
7th: 30/28
8th: 35/32
9th: 45/36
10th: 51/40
11th: 58/44
12th: 59/48
13th: 67/52
14th: 68/56
15th: 77/60
16th: 78/64
17th: 88/68
18th: 94/72
19th: 101/76
20th: 109/80

As you can see, yours starts out a little bit ahead (4 level 1 spells/day instead of only 2), and you're more-or-less equal in power levels until level 8. From level 9 on though, the RES available to the current Sorcerer immediately jumps ahead by nearly 25% and it doesn't slow down from there.

Now obviously there's a counter argument that Sorcerers could be using some of their standard SP to create Spell Slots, which is less efficient than the 1-to-1 spellpower ratio would imply. However, we can give a rough figure on how much spell slot creation is likely to cost; if you use all 20 of your SP on an original Sorcerer to create slots, you will 'lose' somewhere between 10 SP (if creating 10 level 1 slots) and 6 SP (if creating 2 level 5s and a level 4).

What I'd suggest is a twist on this idea from Trickery:

That's an interesting idea. One idea would be for sorcery points to be equal to level + CHA mod * 2, and recover half of the total on a short rest. That wouldn't be too much more complicated and would give sorcerers a little more power to work with. However, I'd be concerned about low levels. That feature works fine at level 10, but a sorcerer shouldn't have an extra three or six spell slots at level 1.

Maybe they could gain this feature around level 6 or so: bonus sorcery points (spell points) based on charisma mod. Or simply gain a feature where they can regain sorcery points equal to 2*CHA as a bonus action once per day.

I would suggest that +CHA after a long rest and half that after a short rest should be granted at somewhere around 9th or 10th, and that should double to the +2*CHA/long +CHA/short that Trickery suggests at around level 17. There is precedent in Classes for features to improve at later level, so I don't think that's a problem.

Thoughts?

[paladinn]

There are actually a few commonalities, and at least one is fairly justifiable. A lot of Wizard spells that require expensive material components and are rituals are not on the Sorcerer list. And that's somewhat reasonable, though it means Sorcerers don't get Shapechange, which is utterly ridiculous. How is it that my Draconic Sorcerer cannot change into an actual frickin' Dragon?!? :smallfurious:

But the one that really bugs me, and this is just in the PHB, they fixed it in Xanathar's Guide, is that every spell with a Wizard's name in it is not available to Sorcerers. So no Melf's Acid Arrow, screwing over Draconic Sorcerers that want Acid spells. No Evard's Tentacles, because only wizards can be into hentai. No Tasha's Hideous Laughter, which Bards get, I guess they paid for the DRM.

In exchange, there are a few spells from the Druid list that Sorcerers get that aren't on the Wizard list. The big surprise is Enhance Ability, which replaced Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace and similar 3.5 spells. Not a Wizard spell.

Ugh. I don't want to derail, but the attempt to read the Pathfinder 2 playtest document was an exercise in frustration. I don't like the system.

I Totally agree that the spell selection is hosed. As for wizard-named-spells, I think the rationale is that those spells were developed by said wizards through research, and sorcerers aren't (supposed to be) big on research. I guess someone looked at each spell and asked him/herself, "Does this sound like something that would 'naturally' be available to a caster mainlining the Weave?" Enhance Ability is a definite; so is something like Fireball. Again, not saying I agree, but I understand it.

[paladinn]

Ugh, that's what Pathfinder 2 is trying and I dislike it intensely. It's also not what I said I wanted. Every class that gains spellcasting in the PHB, except for the Sorcerer has spells unique to them. There are Paladin only spells. Ranger only spells. And sure, the Bard can get them, but the point is that the Sorcerer has no spells that are unique to the Sorcerer. Gaining Cleric spells, or Bard spells doesn't fix that.

Well remember that PF1 was a direct descendant of 3.x; and 3.x had one spell list for wizards and sorcerers. At least this gives a little more variety.

There are a Lot of things I dislike about PF2, but this isn't one of the biggies. I find the keeping of "true Vancian" casting to be worse. And turning Every racial or class ability into a feat. Oh yes, let's take PF's main drawback (extreme feat bloat) and magnify it :(

[Nightgaun7]

{{Scrubbed}}

[paladinn]

{{Scrubbed}}

I'm sorry I haven't reached your level of omniscience. Is that a prerequisite now?

Sorry to waste everyone's time. Take care.. it's been real

[Nhorianscum]

People have come to expect Sorcerers to blow stuff up. If the class doesn't support that, it's badly designed.

As far as dealing damage with spells goes sorcerer is arguably the best at the job where this is relevant.

Upcasting deals comparable or greater than GWM nova in tiers 2 and 3 and requires very minimal investment.

The issue is that spells cap out for "reliable" damage realatively early and all of our improvements in tier 3 and 4 (excluding slim and multi's) are utility. With continued splatbook expansions this will eventually and inevitably be "fixed".

[Nightgaun7]

as far as dealing damage with spells goes sorcerer is arguably the best at the job where this is relevant.


give me twinned fireballs or give me death

[Trickery]

Several Points to be made:

Firstly, not everything that is wrong with Sorcerers as a class is attributable to their spellcasting mechanics. Part of the problem is that their subclass options are all very limiting. Pretty much all of them are in the format "mummy shagged X creature and now I have a bonus to that creatures elemental damage type". The resulting damage lock is itself a hefty limitation on the Sorcerer's abilities.

Secondly, I think you are underpowering the Sorcerer at higher levels. Under your proposals, the Sorcerer has a total of 80 SP per day. The default PHB Sorcerer has 20 SP plus a total of 89 combined Spell Levels, for 109 equivalent Spellpower. You are missing about 25% of the Sorcerer's raw spellpower at top level.

Here is a comparison by level of the Raw Equivalent Spellpower (RES) available per day to the original Sorcerer and your proposal (Format: Current Version/Your Version)


1st: 2/4
2nd: 5/8
3rd: 11/12
4th: 14/16
5th: 21/20
6th: 25/24
7th: 30/28
8th: 35/32
9th: 45/36
10th: 51/40
11th: 58/44
12th: 59/48
13th: 67/52
14th: 68/56
15th: 77/60
16th: 78/64
17th: 88/68
18th: 94/72
19th: 101/76
20th: 109/80

As you can see, yours starts out a little bit ahead (4 level 1 spells/day instead of only 2), and you're more-or-less equal in power levels until level 8. From level 9 on though, the RES available to the current Sorcerer immediately jumps ahead by nearly 25% and it doesn't slow down from there.

Now obviously there's a counter argument that Sorcerers could be using some of their standard SP to create Spell Slots, which is less efficient than the 1-to-1 spellpower ratio would imply. However, we can give a rough figure on how much spell slot creation is likely to cost; if you use all 20 of your SP on an original Sorcerer to create slots, you will 'lose' somewhere between 10 SP (if creating 10 level 1 slots) and 6 SP (if creating 2 level 5s and a level 4).

What I'd suggest is a twist on this idea from Trickery:


I would suggest that +CHA after a long rest and half that after a short rest should be granted at somewhere around 9th or 10th, and that should double to the +2*CHA/long +CHA/short that Trickery suggests at around level 17. There is precedent in Classes for features to improve at later level, so I don't think that's a problem.

Thoughts?

I agree on all points. Ideally, the Sorcerer should not lose power with the new system, but should not gain an excessive amount of power at low levels either.

The trick is finding a formula that's both easy to understand and is generally balanced compared to other classes' casting. The reason this is tricky is because casting scaling is really weird.

Whipping out excel and using your RES numbers as a basis, I came up with the following:

Use Sorcery Points to cast spells. Total pool of Sorcery Points equals Sorcerer level.
Recover Sorcery points equal to level when finishing a short rest.
Starting at level 5, total Sorcery Point pool increases to two times level. Starting at level 11, total Sorcery Point pool increases to three times level.
Starting at level 9, you can spend a bonus action on your turn to recover Sorcery Points equal to your Charisma mod. You must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again. Starting at level 18, you can use this feature twice before finishing a long rest.


Assuming two short rests per day, this formulas out to level * multiplier + bonus Sorcery Points per day. Multiplier starts off at 3, goes to 4 at level 5, and goes to 5 at level 11. Bonus is 0 at level 1, approximately 5 at level 9 assuming +5 CHA, and approximately 10 at level 18.

This is within 7 points of RES at all levels, which is pretty close. Some days it will be higher and some days lower depending on short rest availability, but that's probably fine.

My only concern is that when casting spells for a Sorcery Point cost equal to spell level, this may have the Sorcerer casting more spells per day than other casters. However, it isn't too much more, and it depends on some factors like rest availability, how much Metamagic the Sorcerer uses, how many rituals the non-Sorcerer casts, etc. It also depends on whether the others are getting additional mileage out of their features, such as enchanter wizards getting free twins or abjurer wizards getting extra spell slots. It's impossible to properly math features like those.

I don't think anyone would call it stronger than a Wizard. I also don't think anyone would say it replaces or invalidates any other caster. In that regard, I think it would be okay.

[Nhorianscum]

My only concern is that when casting spells for a Sorcery Point cost equal to spell level, this may have the Sorcerer casting more spells per day than other casters. However, it isn't too much more, and it depends on some factors like rest availability, how much Metamagic the Sorcerer uses, how many rituals the non-Sorcerer casts, etc. It also depends on whether the others are getting additional mileage out of their features, such as enchanter wizards getting free twins or abjurer wizards getting extra spell slots. It's impossible to properly math features like those.

I don't think anyone would call it stronger than a Wizard. I also don't think anyone would say it replaces or invalidates any other caster. In that regard, I think it would be okay.

-Disclaimer: A lot of folks feel that burning slots and point for upcasting on sorc is inefficient. These people are with all due respect dead wrong.-

Too late on the whole "casting more" bit.

*Points to the point progression list for base sorc*

Look at level 7, now back at me, now back at level 7. This class has issues, but raw spellcasting quality and quantity are not among them. We're outspamming warlock for most of the relevant caster levels.

Example: Level 9, Lock 6 L5 spells/day (SR dependant) Base Sorc, 6 L5's +3. New Sorc, 7 L5's +1 a day (SR dependant).

The issue with spell points as is is that SP let's sorc spam harder than the mystic. Which is really, really, gross.

Your proposed change does power up low level sorc a bit in terms of overall casting/day before level 11 but is a very hard nerfbat post 11.

Base Sorc 11 8 L5 1 L6. New Sorc 7 L5 1 L6.

We decay rapidly from here on New while Base has an enormous spike at levels 19 and 20.

-----------

As for the class being "bad at blasting" nah. Vhuman Draconic with magic innate (hex), a +1fire focus from Ebberon setting (common) empower, quicken and Sray deals 99.33(hit chance) at level 7. We're looking at one standard deviation in our dice to one round hill giants. It's expensive at 10/30 points used but we're able to do this "enough" to compete with rage (64.5), Shadows of Moil hexblade Esmite (85.5) 3 spell scag death clerics (99.5), and action surge GWM+PAM (100.5) users from beyond Action Surge CBE+SS (82.5) range with greater accuracy greater damage, and far more utility.

Folks take issue with a lack of "all day" damage for the class but with only two firebolt's/round on the same draconic at 7th level we deal 30(hit chance)/round against a GWM users 35(hit chance)/round giving us almost identical DPR. There are an assumed 18 rounds of combat per day with more than half of those being trivial. The overarching fear of loss fallacy that many experianced (and very few new) players associate with sorc as is has no connection to real play.

This is the minimal optimization build recommended by the class's fluff in the PHB.

-----------

Sorc is the most booty garbage thing in tier 1, but every not moon druid or rouge thing sucks here so w/e, it's still fun and it goes by quickly. The issues with the class are the issues with 5e casting in general amplified by 15 spells total unoptimized, and folks FSR wanting to give Divine Soul Izzet Mizuim Sorcerer's access to the full wizard list to make Sorcerer King posts even longer and more gif heavy.

[Trickery]

Your proposed change does power up low level sorc a bit in terms of overall casting/day before level 11 but is a very hard nerfbat post 11.

Are you talking about my OP suggestion or my updated formula? Updated formula at level 15 for example over the course of a two rest day would have approximately 80 Sorcery Points to work with. A normal Sorcerer would have 77 if it converted all of its spell slots into Sorcery Points.

This puts the Sorcerer ahead of the Wizard for number of castings if it uses all of those points on raw spells. But I assume the Sorcerer would use at least some of these points for Metamagic, and I also assume the Wizard is getting mileage out of rituals, far more spells known, and subclass features. I'm not sure if it balances out, but I do know it would be fun to play and sufficiently different from other spellcasters. It would also roughly achieve the feel of a 3.5e Sorcerer in that it's much more flexible with how it uses its magic, but that will be true of any spell point system.

[Zetakya]

The main remaining advantage is in number of possible casts of higher powered (level 6+) spells per day.

[Trickery]

The main remaining advantage is in number of possible casts of higher powered (level 6+) spells per day.

Only if we don't implement the rule that a Sorcerer cannot cast a given spell of level 6+ more than once per day. Knowing multiple spells of a given level over 5 would allow the Sorcerer to cast extra spells of 6+, but would seriously eat into their limited spells known and may not be beneficial.

[Nagog]

Frankly, I've never played a sorcerer because I don't feel they have any sort of niche or playstyle that can't be better filled with another role, with Wizards being the prime example. Tbh, i think the best change that could be made for them is giving them a role that isn't covered elsewhere. These roles could include: Area Control (perhaps allowing for 2 concentration spells at a time and access to spells like Spike Growth, Entangle, etc), Mid-Range Caster (similar to something like a spellcasting Ranger with more arcane spells and Hexblade Warlocks with more usable spells), or perhaps even giving them something like the Bladesong Subclass that allows them to be a front-line full caster. As is, playing a Sorcerer is overshadowed in nearly every way by playing a Wizard.

People have been speaking about giving Sorcerers access to different spell lists, which makes for an interesting combo, including the large AoE control spells from the Druid list with metamagic, but what about giving Sorcerers access to other classes class features? May be a tad OP and it definitely needs workshoping, but it could be something to make Sorcerers a much more customizable class than most. I could see it becoming a different alternative to multiclassing, as with a Sorcerer you could pick up one or two class abilities from other classes rather than dip into those classes for a few levels to get them? Like beginning at level 5, you can copy a class ability from another class, as long as that class ability is gained at a level of half your sorcerer level or less.

Essentially, the main problem in playing a Sorcerer is there really isn't a reason to choose Sorcerer for any role in combat. Metamagic is interesting and occasionally useful, but that's really about it.

[Nhorianscum]

Are you talking about my OP suggestion or my updated formula? Updated formula at level 15 for example over the course of a two rest day would have approximately 80 Sorcery Points to work with. A normal Sorcerer would have 77 if it converted all of its spell slots into Sorcery Points.

This puts the Sorcerer ahead of the Wizard for number of castings if it uses all of those points on raw spells. But I assume the Sorcerer would use at least some of these points for Metamagic, and I also assume the Wizard is getting mileage out of rituals, far more spells known, and subclass features. I'm not sure if it balances out, but I do know it would be fun to play and sufficiently different from other spellcasters. It would also roughly achieve the feel of a 3.5e Sorcerer in that it's much more flexible with how it uses its magic, but that will be true of any spell point system.

I ignored the updated version as it's sorta overkill.

XL15.

Base, 8 5th's 1 6th 1 7th 1 8th +4

Updated 11 5ths 1 6th 1 7th 1 8th +4

Sadly updated is still SR dependant so it may not actually be better than base.

----------

We normally cap out at 12 5ths 2 6ths 2 7ths 1 8th 1 9th at CL20 (IE the best casting in the game by a mile). The sorc capstone is really good for how simple it is.

The progression for base is Very Spikey in Weird Places so if you want to work off this assumed 20th list and curve it smoothly into tier one on a long rest recharge that would be an actual quality of life improvement without a significant gameplay buff.

Giving a feature to recover cha modifier in points for 2+n levels of exaustion as a BA where n is the number of previous uses that day would be my suggestion if you wanted to add a recovery feature pre level 20 to remove some of the overextension-fear.

[Zetakya]

Only if we don't implement the rule that a Sorcerer cannot cast a given spell of level 6+ more than once per day. Knowing multiple spells of a given level over 5 would allow the Sorcerer to cast extra spells of 6+, but would seriously eat into their limited spells known and may not be beneficial.

I must have missed that, Sorry.

Although 6&7 you got 2 of by 20

[Zetakya]

Frankly, I've never played a sorcerer because I don't feel they have any sort of niche or playstyle that can't be better filled with another role, with Wizards being the prime example. Tbh, i think the best change that could be made for them is giving them a role that isn't covered elsewhere. These roles could include: Area Control (perhaps allowing for 2 concentration spells at a time and access to spells like Spike Growth, Entangle, etc), Mid-Range Caster (similar to something like a spellcasting Ranger with more arcane spells and Hexblade Warlocks with more usable spells), or perhaps even giving them something like the Bladesong Subclass that allows them to be a front-line full caster. As is, playing a Sorcerer is overshadowed in nearly every way by playing a Wizard.

People have been speaking about giving Sorcerers access to different spell lists, which makes for an interesting combo, including the large AoE control spells from the Druid list with metamagic, but what about giving Sorcerers access to other classes class features? May be a tad OP and it definitely needs workshoping, but it could be something to make Sorcerers a much more customizable class than most. I could see it becoming a different alternative to multiclassing, as with a Sorcerer you could pick up one or two class abilities from other classes rather than dip into those classes for a few levels to get them? Like beginning at level 5, you can copy a class ability from another class, as long as that class ability is gained at a level of half your sorcerer level or less.

Essentially, the main problem in playing a Sorcerer is there really isn't a reason to choose Sorcerer for any role in combat. Metamagic is interesting and occasionally useful, but that's really about it.

A lot of this is due to the Sorcerer subclasses being deeply unimaginative and almost all of the "mummy shagged a WHAT?" variety.

[Nightgaun7]

I must have missed that, Sorry.

Although 6&7 you got 2 of by 20

It's part of the alternate rules for spell point casting.

[Trickery]

I must have missed that, Sorry.

Although 6&7 you got 2 of by 20

No worries. And yes, the proposed system would function differently for level 6+ spells compared to other full casters. That's intentional, though. As others have said for years, part of the problem with 5e Sorcerer is that it doesn't feel unique or interesting compared to other classes. It casts spells with Metamagic but doesn't actually do anything else that's mechanically interesting. This is part of what's so appealing about a spell point system in general.

However, I have no idea how many spell points the class ought to have at a given level. It's too difficult to weigh the ultiity of being able to spend what's basically mana versus having to conform to specific spell slots. It's also hard to know how many extra spells' worth of magic we expect a Wizard to cast through rituals and subclass features per day. So I still think we need play-testing to know whether a given solution feels right in play.

Edit: "mana" and "mama" are different words.

[paladinn]

It's part of the alternate rules for spell point casting.

@Zetakya: Be careful, he'll demand that you stop posting

[Amechra]

You could probably get some pretty neat class features by looking at what they got in earlier editions (through feats and such) and porting stuff forward.

Like, I'd love to see them get some variation on Versatile Spellcaster (spend two spell slots to cast a spell a level higher) from 3e. Bring back all of the spell-hacking stuff from 3e, too, and give them to Sorcerers - my Zeus-themed Sorcerer would have dearly loved the ability to take Scorching Ray and go "this deals lightning damage now". Honestly, anything that let them build a more tightly themed list of spell's known would be really nice - much like the Warlock, Sorcerers should get very different spell lists based off of their subclass (seriously, Warlocks get demon summoning and "summon Cthulhu tentacles" regardless of their Patron, and always deal Necrotic damage with their main damage-boosting spell - does that seem a little off to anyone else?).

Although, Zetakya, I'm unsure about almost all of the subclasses being "mama shacked up with something". I think Draconic Sorcery is the only one that requires that you have non-humanoid blood in you, with a bunch of the others just giving that as an option. However, I do agree that Sorcerer subclasses tend towards the uninspired¹, and that there are a lot of single-element subclasses. More subclasses themed around you being a half-whatever would actually be cool -
a Dhampyr subclass that gave you Vampire powers comes to mind.

Honestly, though, I think Sorcerers and Warlocks should be rolled into one class - the difference between "I made a pact with a demon" and "my mom made a pact with a demon (by sleeping with it)" is kinda narrow.

¹ Most subclasses are uninspired, design-wise.

[Vogie]

My existing fix is using the DMG Spell point system and including the sorc points in that "mana pool". So, you get the number of spell points in the DMG per level, plus your sorcerer level, of points. This breaks them out of the 433332211 slot requirements.

https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1479/45/1479459431798.png

What that does is sorcerers get a single 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell, but everything else is fair game via spell points. So, at level 20, a sorcerer would have 153 spell points. As you can see from the image above, a single 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell costs a total of 43 spell points, leaving 110 spell points, or up to fifteen (15) 5th level spells, as every 5th level spell is a flat 7 points. Compare that to a wizard that's locked into the 16 slots for 1st-5th level spells broken into the 4/3/3/3/3 division.

Even if you were to deviate slightly from the spell point variant and allow a 2nd 6th and 7th spell at level 18, the sorcerer will still be able to pump out thirteen (13!) 5th level spells after that... or an absurd 45 1st level spells (in reality, you'll have something in between).

EDIT: As Zed pointed out below, all of the above math is NOT including the 4 points per short rest you get at sorc level 20. Also, if you eschew casting 6th-9th level spells for whatever, that'll give you an additional 43-62 points (43 if you have a single casting of 6th & 7th level spells per long rest, or 62 if you have 2 castings), which is another 6-8 5th level spells on top of everything else, respectively

A real simple fix would include

More Metamagic options
Adding additional Metamagic at 7th and 13th level
Ability to swap a metamagic when you reach 7th, 10th, 13th, and 17th level


However, if you really wanted to go nuts about it, I'd actually redo/updo the metamagic to act more like the Grit mechanic from the gunslinger, as the Sorcerer is the closest to the "spellslinger" type of thing. That would include:

Ignoring Vancian Casting altogether for mana (spell points, mixed with sorc points) as a baseline feature. It'd be independent for Multiclassing, similar to how Pact magic works.
Gaining points on Crits
Gaining points on Killing Blows
Called Shots with Spells at 7th level (instead of an additional metamagic), ability to target Arms/head/legs/torso/wings.
Turning damage spells into utility (stopping bleeding/stabilizing with Firebolt, destroying locks with Acid splash, freezing water with Ray of Frost) and utility spells into damage (creating simple weapons with shape water, knocking things around with gust, setting targets on fire with Control Flames, combining Blade Ward and Sword Burst into a single casting)

[Trickery]

I agree with Sorcerous Origins granting specific spells inherently - this makes even more sense for Sorcerers than it does for Clerics, so I don't know why WotC didn't think of it.

I also think Origins ought each grant some unique spell ability. It would make sense for a Draconic Sorcerer to be able to change the damage type of spells they cast to their own inherent damage type. And it would make sense for Wild Magic Sorcerers to be able to cast a spell from the Sorcerer spell list that they don't actually know a set number of times per day.

Regarding the Spell Point system in the DMG, my problem is that it's clunky to use. It's not clear why a 1st level spell costs two points, a second level costs 3, but then 3rd jumps to 5, and so on. One spell level = one point makes more sense to me. And it's not terribly difficult to balance this against existing caster slots (aside from the Sorcerer having more flexibility which definitely counts for something, I'm just not sure what). I'm tempted to say that if you were to limit sorcerers only to the combined number of points a full caster would have in slots, plus five for CHA or something so they have a little extra for Metamagic, then that might actually be balanced considering the flexibility of spell points. However, I don't know how to balance that against fewer spells known and no rituals.

[Zetakya]

Even if you were to deviate slightly from the spell point variant and allow a 2nd 6th and 7th spell at level 18, the sorcerer will still be able to pump out thirteen (13!) 5th level spells after that... or an absurd 45 1st level spells (in reality, you'll have something in between).


Bear in mind that a Sorcerer in the current system can liquidate everything else and throw 17 level 5 spells a day, at the absolute limit. 11 if you only liquidate spells of levels 1-4. Plus a few SP left over.


Incidentally I was wrong on my earlier table of RES at each level. The 20th level Sorcerer in the current version wields 117 RES - I forget to include the 8 additional SP (4/short rest) that the current version gets at level 20.

[Amechra]

Regarding the Spell Point system in the DMG, my problem is that it's clunky to use. It's not clear why a 1st level spell costs two points, a second level costs 3, but then 3rd jumps to 5, and so on.

While it is clunky, it actually kinda does make sense. 1st and 2nd are spell level + 1, 3rd through 5th are spell level +2, 6th through 8th are spell level +3, and 9th is spell level +4. Those cost bumps happen to fall exactly on the levels where you go up a tier.

My main beef with the spell point system is that they mapped it a little too closely to when most classes get access to their spell slots - the scaling is incredibly janky as a result.

[paladinn]

I'm back! Thanks to Mr. Hall, our illustrious moderator.

I'm curious.. What would be wrong with just "spell point cost = spell level"? Would that really make a caster OP? Especially given the limits on higher level spells/ day

I'd think that things would balance out, especially if we combine sorcery points and spell points and draw metamagic out of the sum.

[Trickery]

I'm back! Thanks to Mr. Hall, our illustrious moderator.

I'm curious.. What would be wrong with just "spell point cost = spell level"? Would that really make a caster OP? Especially given the limits on higher level spells/ day

I'd think that things would balance out, especially if we combine sorcery points and spell points and draw metamagic out of the sum.

If the number of points matches, then it should balance out. However, it affects the spells you'll take. The DMG spell point system makes second level spells very appealing compared to 1st level spells, but a cost = level system will make fifth, fourth, and first level spells quite nice as you go along - fifth and fourth for their strong effect and affordability by that point, first for their cheapness. A Sorcerer would be silly not to take Shield with my system, for example.

[Talsin]

I agree with Sorcerous Origins granting specific spells inherently - this makes even more sense for Sorcerers than it does for Clerics, so I don't know why WotC didn't think of it.

I also think Origins ought each grant some unique spell ability. It would make sense for a Draconic Sorcerer to be able to change the damage type of spells they cast to their own inherent damage type. And it would make sense for Wild Magic Sorcerers to be able to cast a spell from the Sorcerer spell list that they don't actually know a set number of times per day.

Regarding the Spell Point system in the DMG, my problem is that it's clunky to use. It's not clear why a 1st level spell costs two points, a second level costs 3, but then 3rd jumps to 5, and so on. One spell level = one point makes more sense to me. And it's not terribly difficult to balance this against existing caster slots (aside from the Sorcerer having more flexibility which definitely counts for something, I'm just not sure what). I'm tempted to say that if you were to limit sorcerers only to the combined number of points a full caster would have in slots, plus five for CHA or something so they have a little extra for Metamagic, then that might actually be balanced considering the flexibility of spell points. However, I don't know how to balance that against fewer spells known and no rituals.

The way I approach it is thinking about the spells and the tiers of play;
1st tier caps out with 3rd level spells taking a larger cost gap for a larger effect.
2nd tier caps out with 5th level spells, that are just before a large effect level, hence the gap between 5 & 6.
and last big jump is to 9th level, which again has a point gap.

It isn't linear, but the effect of the spells between each level really isn't either.

Maybe a way to carve that niche - instead of giving more metamagics would be to widen what is currently availableprovided?

Careful simply doesn't effect those zones - call it targeting or something (it would allow buffs on allies over enemies this way too)
Extended changes the unit of time up from round -> minute -> 10 minutes -> hour -> 8hours -> day -> etc.
Empower rerolls all dice rather than CHA dice
Distant... seems fine?
Heighten gives a -5 to the save, (which is more consistent and could pierce harder resistances more effectively)
Quicken allows 2 full-level spells
Subtle specifies that it can't be detected without detect magic or something similar
Twin works for all spells, not just single-target

Would this be too much? Maybe Quicken & Twin would be too strong that way... Limited to 5th level spells then?

[Trickery]

Maybe a way to carve that niche - instead of giving more metamagics would be to widen what is currently availableprovided?

Careful simply doesn't effect those zones - call it targeting or something (it would allow buffs on allies over enemies this way too)
Extended changes the unit of time up from round -> minute -> 10 minutes -> hour -> 8hours -> day -> etc.
Empower rerolls all dice rather than CHA dice
Distant... seems fine?
Heighten gives a -5 to the save, (which is more consistent and could pierce harder resistances more effectively)
Quicken allows 2 full-level spells
Subtle specifies that it can't be detected without detect magic or something similar
Twin works for all spells, not just single-target

Would this be too much? Maybe Quicken & Twin would be too strong that way... Limited to 5th level spells then?

Careful is weak how it is. Swap it for what Evoker Wizards do and it would be fine. Empower rerolling as many dice as you want won't have much effect overall since, realistically, you'd only want to reroll half the dice and most spells don't have more than ten damage rolls.

Having heighten give -5 to a save is probably too much. That virtually guarantees failure when targeting weak saves.

I think Quicken allowing two leveled spells with the player's action would actually be fine, but in that case it probably ought to have a cost equal to the higher level spell's cost because that's really good.

Twin working for all spells could cause some weird situations. It's already a great pick, but if I could Twin Web and other spells like it, that's like giving everyone disadvantage on all of their saving throws versus the spell. Since AoE debuff spells are already great, you might want to be careful with that. But I like the idea in theory.

Extend - be careful. Your version allows things like Extend on Shield, technically. +5 AC for one minute on a reaction, whether it costs an extra Sorcery point or not, might be busted. Extend is already a hidden gem due to using in before a long rest on spells like Mage Armor and Aid, or even using it before a dungeon on ten minute spells in some cases.

[Talsin]

Careful is weak how it is. Swap it for what Evoker Wizards do and it would be fine. Empower rerolling as many dice as you want won't have much effect overall since, realistically, you'd only want to reroll half the dice and most spells don't have more than ten damage rolls.

Having heighten give -5 to a save is probably too much. That virtually guarantees failure when targeting weak saves.

I think Quicken allowing two leveled spells with the player's action would actually be fine, but in that case it probably ought to have a cost equal to the higher level spell's cost because that's really good.

Twin working for all spells could cause some weird situations. It's already a great pick, but if I could Twin Web and other spells like it, that's like giving everyone disadvantage on all of their saving throws versus the spell. Since AoE debuff spells are already great, you might want to be careful with that. But I like the idea in theory.

Extend - be careful. Your version allows things like Extend on Shield, technically. +5 AC for one minute on a reaction, whether it costs an extra Sorcery point or not, might be busted. Extend is already a hidden gem due to using in before a long rest on spells like Mage Armor and Aid, or even using it before a dungeon on ten minute spells in some cases.

Hmm... Keep the requirement on extend to be 1 minute or longer might mitigate blade-ward abuse too. A 1sp resistance to normal damages for a battle is pretty strong.
The level limit on quicken was really the way to get around reworking the cost. I figure most sorcerers by the time they are casting spells above level 5 aren't quickening them to tack on cantrip anyway. Perhaps Quicken is fine as it is.


I've been thinking - on a high level, what kind of concept are you wanting out of a sorcerer? What should it be able to do as a whole?

[Trickery]

I've been thinking - on a high level, what kind of concept are you wanting out of a sorcerer? What should it be able to do as a whole?

My preferred niche for a Sorcerer is for them to be a magical specialist, able to know far fewer spells than the Wizard but able to do cool things with those spells. I don't think that needs to change at high levels versus low levels.

Given the sheer number of spells known and versatility of a Wizard, I think Sorcerers could cast more spells per day on top of having Metamagic and still not be as good overall. However, the key for me is not to remove the Sorcerer's weaknesses. Rather we should give them some unique benefits, such as spell points and stronger origin features, to counteract those weaknesses so that Sorcerers become sufficiently different from and thus competitive with Wizards.

[Aimeryan]

My preferred niche for a Sorcerer is for them to be a magical specialist, able to know far fewer spells than the Wizard but able to do cool things with those spells. I don't think that needs to change at high levels versus low levels.

Given the sheer number of spells known and versatility of a Wizard, I think Sorcerers could cast more spells per day on top of having Metamagic and still not be as good overall. However, the key for me is not to remove the Sorcerer's weaknesses. Rather we should give them some unique benefits, such as spell points and stronger origin features, to counteract those weaknesses so that Sorcerers become sufficiently different from and thus competitive with Wizards.

Not quite so simple a solution, however! Do agree that given them unique features and mechanics would make them a competitive option, if not necessarily for min-maxing than just for fun.

[Nightgaun7]

@Zetakya: Be careful, he'll demand that you stop posting

It makes sense to me that one should read the rules before talking about how to fix them, but you do you.


Like, I'd love to see them get some variation on Versatile Spellcaster (spend two spell slots to cast a spell a level higher) from 3e.
...
Although, Zetakya, I'm unsure about almost all of the subclasses being "mama shacked up with something". I think Draconic Sorcery is the only one that requires that you have non-humanoid blood in you, with a bunch of the others just giving that as an option. However, I do agree that Sorcerer subclasses tend towards the uninspired¹, and that there are a lot of single-element subclasses. More subclasses themed around you being a half-whatever would actually be cool -
a Dhampyr subclass that gave you Vampire powers comes to mind.

They essentially already have Versatile Spellcaster, you can mulch lower level spell slots for SP and then create new slots.

Draconic Sorcery could just as easily be a dragon doing a blood ritual with you or something, as opposed to heritage.

They should have just made an "Elementalist" Sorcerer and let that do the big four.

Personally I like the distinction between "I'm a natural" and "I have powerful friends" that the Sorcerer/Warlock split gives you.

[Trickery]

Not quite so simple a solution, however! Do agree that given them unique features and mechanics would make them a competitive option, if not necessarily for min-maxing than just for fun.

Not as simple as the spell point system in the OP, no, though I think that's a step in the right direction at most levels. I think I'm looking at a more comprehensive rework, but still something that will fit on one page.

Does anyone know a good place that lists the Sorcerer subclasses and their source books?

[Bjarkmundur]

This thread is a bit heavy for my ADD, managed one page out of four, but I do love what you did. It's a very clean solution to a complex problem. Grod and Kane0 have made more extensive Sorc overhauls, but the simplicity of this fix really gets me.

I have a rule of thumb: If a houserule cannot be explained in one sentence, it becomes a chore for players rather than a fun tweak.

This is why I've opted for your version as my Sorcerer fix of choice in my houserule document. When and if a heavily dedicated or experienced sorcerer player comes a long, I might link him the more drastic overhauls and see if he's interested.

The only thing I'm inclined to add to your fix is the problem of spellcasting options. I've seen many fixes to this: Automatically learn spells from the Expanded Spell list on subclass, additional spell know granted at key levels etc. My favorite version is definetly the 'Improvised Casting' method, where a sorcerer can pull any spell out of a hat either a limited number of times a day, or at the expense of additional resources. This, however, breaks my one sentence rule AND adds an incredible amount of complexity to what is supposed to be a simple class. One of the selling points of sorcerer is how simple it is at early levels and how its complexity grows linearly in as he levels up.

TL:DR; There is no one ALL ENCOMPASSING FIX, especially with how varied players, DMs and campaigns can be. This simple fix is a great starting point for anyone who wants to remedy the Sorcerer's place in 5e, and it has the benefit of allowing additional changes to be easily added after a few levels of play. This leads me to believe this is the superior fix, simply due to how effortless it is to implement, as can be seen in my explanation of it in my houserule document.

[paladinn]

Not as simple as the spell point system in the OP, no, though I think that's a step in the right direction at most levels. I think I'm looking at a more comprehensive rework, but still something that will fit on one page.

Does anyone know a good place that lists the Sorcerer subclasses and their source books?

Wild Magic and Dragon (from PHB), Divine Soul, Shadow and Storm (from XGtE)

There were also Phoenix, Sea, Stone and Giant Soul in UA.

[Bjarkmundur]

Many are talking about how the Warlock is okay with having few spells know due to Invocations and Eldritch Blast. These comments suggest that a sorcerer might benefit from having Stronger Cantrips.

Is there a reason why Sorcerers don't add their charisma modifier to cantrip damage rolls?
Does Font of Magic still grant additional Sorcery Points using this fix?

[paladinn]

Many are talking about how the Warlock is okay with having few spells know due to Invocations and Eldritch Blast. These comments suggest that a sorcerer might benefit from having Stronger Cantrips.

Is there a reason why Sorcerers don't add their charisma modifier to cantrip damage rolls?
Does Font of Magic still grant additional Sorcery Points using this fix?

I'd like sorcerers to get Eldritch Blast as a cantrip. Even without warlock invocations, it would do as much damage as a firebolt, and is a much less-resisted damge type.

If they could add their CHA mod, all the better

[Trickery]

Wild Magic and Dragon (from PHB), Divine Soul, Shadow and Storm (from XGtE)

There were also Phoenix, Sea, Stone and Giant Soul in UA.

Thank you! I own those books and wanted to be sure I wasn't missing one from SCAG or something.


I have a rule of thumb: If a houserule cannot be explained in one sentence, it becomes a chore for players rather than a fun tweak.

This is why I've opted for your version as my Sorcerer fix of choice in my houserule document. When and if a heavily dedicated or experienced sorcerer player comes a long, I might link him the more drastic overhauls and see if he's interested.

The only thing I'm inclined to add to your fix is the problem of spellcasting options. I've seen many fixes to this: Automatically learn spells from the Expanded Spell list on subclass, additional spell know granted at key levels etc. My favorite version is definetly the 'Improvised Casting' method, where a sorcerer can pull any spell out of a hat either a limited number of times a day, or at the expense of additional resources. This, however, breaks my one sentence rule AND adds an incredible amount of complexity to what is supposed to be a simple class. One of the selling points of sorcerer is how simple it is at early levels and how its complexity grows linearly in as he levels up.

Thank you! I agree, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who appreciates simplicity. With homebrew, I want the players to be able to take it in at a glance. If I was WotC, I could get away with several page playtest material. But I'm not, and my players are not as patient with me.

I'm going to work on a more comprehensive but simple rework. I'll incorporate comments from this thread - you've all made great points, and I have some ideas.

[paladinn]

Thank you! I own those books and wanted to be sure I wasn't missing one from SCAG or something.


Storm was in SCAG, but was reprinted in XGtE. Not sure if/how much it was revised, if at all.

[Bjarkmundur]

I would love to get a sneak peek, or at least a synopsis from the whopping four pages of replies. There's a lot of good comments here, but seeing how I've never even played a sorcerer, it's hard for me to discern opinions from analyzes.

[Kane0]

Sorc definitely needs some unique cantrips and spells. Happy to take suggestions, but to get us started:

Wildfire - like sword burst but fire damage with a minor rider, like firebolt igniting unattended objects
Soundtrap - similar to create bonfire but thunder damage with a minor rider, possibly
Lethargy or Daze - like a single target Bane or save or take one level of exhaustion (with a max determined by tier)
Vanish - short duration invisibility with concentration, moving forces concentration check
Proxy - concentration up to one minute, touch one ally to be able to cast from their location

[Bjarkmundur]

Sorc definitely needs some unique cantrips and spells.

Due to the nature of Sorcerous Origins, I think Grod's approach is more fitting for this solution, which grants each subclass a unique metamagic option. Maybe +cha to a single cantrip taken at level 1 is enough, maybe a specific cantrip or bonus effect when a cantrip is cast that is tied to the origin also works. Whatever the method, I really feel like the 'super cantrip' should be the characters most natural form of magic, which is usally that of his origin.

My 2 copper, anywas.
I'm still sticking with the simple fix, then linking to your version for additional metamagics and grod's version for expanded subclasses, based on what and if the player still feels like the sorcerer is lacking. For a base line, I think fixing the frequency of casting is a great first step that will probably be more than enough for many players. I mean, just look at what I wrote down into my document, it's so short and simple! Just a couple of lines of text, and two links for players who'd like to try something more homebrewed.

Sorcerer
Sorcerer also has a lot of known issues, which basically boil down to them being “bad wizards”. What follows is a simple change to the sorcerer, as well as two complete overhauls, that attempt to make playing a Sorcerer even more enjoyable.

Better Sorcery Points Credit: Trickery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592006-Hybrid-Sorcerer-A-Simple-Solution)
Instead of Spell Slots you have a total number of sorcery points equal to twice your level, which you use to fuel your spellcasting and metamagic. Casting a spell costs sorcery points equal to the spell’s level, and you regain Sorcery Points equal to your level during a short rest. In addition, you choose one cantrip to gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to your charisma modifier.


Kane0's Overhaul (+metamagics) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555697-Houserules-and-homebrew)
Grod's Overhaul (+subclasses) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591960-Sorcerer-Revision-(spell-points-and-origin-spells)&highlight=grod)


I also love the idea of sorcerers being able to upcast spells right at level 1. That, for me, is a real selling point. It really plays on the flexability associated with the class. It's usefulness is debetable, since you have few spells and still learn 2nd level spells at 3rd level like normal. But it really makes a player FEEL like he can manipulate his magical power on a level a wizard can't.

[paladinn]

Sorc definitely needs some unique cantrips and spells. Happy to take suggestions, but to get us started:

Sorc needs to get (back) simple weapon proficiency. The original rationale was that, since they aren't spending all their time studying spellbooks, they had time to learn a bit of combat. I believe that still holds.

[Kane0]

Due to the nature of Sorcerous Origins, I think Grod's approach is more fitting for this solution, which grants each subclass a unique metamagic option.


+Cha to cantrip damage is fair, but subclass specific metamagic has its own complications. You'd have to come up with something for each subclass present and future, and each of those would need to be unique and enticing without making people say 'why isn't this an option all sorcerers can choose?'. Probably not a big deal for 2 sorc subclasses, but 5+ and you start noticing it.


Sorc needs to get (back) simple weapon proficiency. The original rationale was that, since they aren't spending all their time studying spellbooks, they had time to learn a bit of combat. I believe that still holds.
The difference would be marginal at best. It's the same conundrum clerics face with their +1d8 weapon damage at level 8, they don't get any other support for weapon attacks and so virtually any other combat option they have is better.

[paladinn]

The difference would be marginal at best. It's the same conundrum clerics face with their +1d8 weapon damage at level 8, they don't get any other support for weapon attacks and so virtually any other combat option they have is better.

Agreed, but it's better than nothing in a pinch. Maybe give them a version of the shillelagh cantrip?

[Kane0]

Not a bad idea, a sorc version of shillelagh, magic stone or the blade spells.

[ImperiousLeader]

Not a bad idea, a sorc version of shillelagh, magic stone or the blade spells.

Magic Claw
Transmutation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 Bonus Action
Range: Personal
Components: S
Duration: 1 minute
Choose a hand, it transforms into a claw. You cannot use this claw as a hand to hold things or use it to cast spells, but you may use it as a weapon. For the duration, you can attack with the claw using your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls. Your claw deals 1d6 slashing damage and is considered magical.
The claw deals 1d8 damage when you reach 5th level, 1d10 at 11th level, 1d12 at 17th level.

[patchyman]

For the life of me I don't understand why people say the Sorcerer is weak. You just have to understand that it does its own thing. It makes a poor blaster, and isn't a generalist. It's a specific flavor of utility caster that ramps up and overcharges certain spells. Because of this it can potentially be as good of a Face as the bard, if not better. It can be a better social manipulator due to subtle spell. And it can be one of the strongest straight supports due to the ability to twin spells like Polymorph, Greater Invis, ot Haste.

What if you don’t take the Twin metamagic? This is another Con for Sorcerers: metamagics that vary considerably in strength and usefulness.

[patchyman]

The 5e Bard list might be good; but I'm not sure "Bardic Soul" works as a name. And "Musical Soul" sounds like James Brownlol

A Sorcerer with Bard spells is clearly a “Soul Man/Woman”.

[patchyman]

Yes. The Wizard spell list is the #1 reason to play the class along with their large number of spells known and strong subclasses. Wizards have many spells on their list that nobody else can cast, and they have access to far more (and far more potent) rituals than any other else as well (not counting tome warlocks in theory, but in practice the wizard often has more rituals).

The Wizard spell list is the no. 1 reason to play a Wizard. That and their large number of spells known. Let me start again... The two reasons to play a Wizard are their spell list and their large number of spells known. And their strong subclasses. Ok, among the main reason to play Wizards are their spell list, their large number of spells known, their powerful subclasses, Arcane Recovery, and their powerful capstones.

[Trickery]

Ok, among the main reason to play Wizards are their spell list, their large number of spells known, their powerful subclasses, Arcane Recovery, and their powerful capstones.

Mostly the first three, but it sounds like you got it.

[bendking]

Honestly, why not just make Versatile Spellcasting more efficient and be done with it? Seems like the simplest solution.

[paladinn]

Honestly, why not just make Versatile Spellcasting more efficient and be done with it? Seems like the simplest solution.

And what exactly would that look like?

[PhantomSoul]

And what exactly would that look like?

That popped up in a sister thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592387-Buff-to-Flexible-Spellcasting-instead-of-using-the-Spell-Point-variant-rule

(And several options in the comments, with an added options I'd consider where it's a cost of "Sorcery Points - 1", so a level 1 Spell Slot gives 1 point (2-1), a level 3 spell slot gives 4 points (5-1), and a level 7 spell slot gives 9 points (10-1). Not a huge difference, but is a little better and maintains there being some inefficiency.)

[paladinn]

I guess I still don't get why you cant have 1 spell/sorc point = 1 spell slot level, and use the point pool for spells And metamagic. Given the Wizard's huge list of spells, I hardly think it's unbalanced.

[Trickery]

All, I created a more comprehensive Simple Sorcerer over at Homebrewery: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryLQS4Ubr. The new version is also below. It looks nicer over on Homebrewery than it does here. I promise it doesn't take much new learning - mostly, it's what we've already discussed. Also, the origin changes are minimal and players will only need to learn one new feature for their origin.


Simple Sorcerer

Class Features

All Sorcerer features are unchanged except for those listed below.

Sorcery
Replaces Spellcasting and Font of Magic.

Cantrips - Unchanged

Sorcery Points - You have a pool of Sorcery Points equal to your Sorcerer Level, and you use this pool to fuel your spells. You can cast a spell you know by spending Sorcery Points equal to the spell's level. For example, a second-level spell would cost two Sorcery Points to cast.

You can also "upcast" a spell by spending additional Sorcery Points. For example, if you spend two Sorcery Points when casting the spell Burning Hands, you can cast Burning Hands as a second-level spell. You can never cast a spell at a higher level than the highest level spell you're capable of casting.

You recover Sorcery points equal to your level when you finish a short rest, and you recover your full Sorcery Point pool when you finish a long rest. Your total Sorcery Points can never exceed the size of your Sorcery Point pool.

Starting at Sorcerer Level 5, your total Sorcery Point pool increases to two times your Sorcerer Level. Starting at Sorcerer Level 11, your total Sorcery Point pool increases to three times your level.

Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher - Unchanged. Use the PHB table for spells known, and treat the highest level spell slot at a given level as the highest level spell the Sorcerer can cast.

Casting Spells of 6th Level and Higher - Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. Once you've cast one of these spells, you cannot cast that spell again until you finish a Long Rest.

Spellcasting Ability - Unchanged

Spellcasting Focus - As the Sorcerer's magic is innate, you do not need a spellcasting focus and only need to provide spell components when they have a listed cost.

Other New Features

Innate Magic - Your Sorcerous origin grants you the ability to cast certain spells innately. You know these spells, and they do not count agains your total spells known. You cannot forget or replace these spells.

Sorcerous Recovery - Starting at Sorcerer Level 7, you learn to draw magical energy from your surroundings to replenish yourself. As a bonus action on your turn, you may regain Sorcery Points equal to your charisma modifier. Additionally, the next metamagic you use this round has no Sorcery Point cost. You must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

Innate Mastery - Replaces Sorcerous Restoration. Through practice, you've learned to alter your innate magic effortlessly. Starting at Sorcerer Level 20, Metamagic used on spells granted by your Innate Magic feature has no Sorcery Point cost.


All origins are assumed to be the same except where changed. If a feature has the same name as an existing feature, it replaces that feature. Otherwise, use the origins as written. Each origin has been given five Innate Magic spells and a unique magical effect. The goal is to make the origins more impactful while also being mechanically and thematically distinct.

Draconic Bloodline

Colour of Magic - Sorcerers with the Draconic Bloodline can change the element of their damaging spells. When you cast a spell that includes damage rolls, you may change the type of those damage rolls to match the damage type of your Draconic Ancestry. You also have resistance to this damage type.

Innate Magic
1st - Burning Hands
3rd - Dragon's Breath
5th - Fireball
7th - Wall of Fire
9th - Dominate Person

Wild Magic

Wild Magic Surge - With a surge of uncontrolled magic, you weave the stuff of magic into a barely cohernt shape with only the shred of a purpose. You spend your action to cast a spell you don't know from the Sorcerer Spell list. You must spend the Sorcery Points necessary to cast this spell, it must be a spell of a level you could know, and you cannot cast spells of 6th level or higher using this feature. Whenever you use this feature, immediately roll on the Wold Magic Surge table after you cast the spell. You may use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier, regaining all uses when you finish a long rest.

Innate Magic
1st - Catapult
3rd - Enlarge/Reduce
5th - Enemies Abound
7th - Hallucinatory Terrain
9th - Animate Objects

Divine Soul

Divine Restoration - Whenever you spend Sorcery Points, you can restore a hit points to a creature you can see equal to the number of Sorcery Points spent.

Innate Magic
1st - Cure Wounds (remove from Divine Magic)
3rd - Spiritual Weapon
5th - Beacon of Hope
7th - Guardian of Faith
9th - Dawn

Shadow Magic

Eyes of the Dark - Darkvision unchanged. Darkness and related removed from feature. Add: you are always able to see clearly through spells and magical effects you create with Sorcery, such as the Darkness spell. Additionally, you do not need to concentrate to maintain the spell Darkness.

Innate Magic
1st - Cause Fear
3rd - Darkness
5th - Bestow Curse
7th - Evard's Black Tentacles
9th - Cloudkill

Storm Sorcery

Weathershaper - You are immune to strong winds and non-damaging weather-related effects such as Sleet Storm, but not including things like lightning. In addition, when a spell or magical effect you control creates strong winds, weather effects, or deals thundering or lightning damage, you may exclude certain areas and creatures from the effect as you see fit. You may change this designation at any time as a free action while you are conscious.

Innate Magic
1st - Thunderwave
3rd - Choose Gust of Wind OR Warding Wind
5th - Choose Call Lightning OR Sleet Storm
7th - Control Water
9th - Choose Control Winds OR Maelstrom


This version of the Sorcerer class is designed with three goals in mind:

I wanted to create a version of the class that is friendly to new players. The existing Sorcerer is unfriendly to new players given its excessively limited feature use and lack of flexibility.
I believe the existing Sorcerer's features do not properly reflect its Class Fantasy. The Sorcerer should feel like it has raw magic and powers granted by its Origin, and it should also use magic in a different way since the magic is coming from within. This homebrew makes alterations that change the way the class plays, making it more reflective of those ideas.
Sorcerers should feel different from other spell casters. If the spell casters are sufficiently different and serve different purposes, then one is not better than another. Thus, it's in everyone's interests for the Sorcerer to feel like a Sorcerer, not like a Wizard with Metamagic and far fewer spells.

Spells Per Day
You can calculate a base Sorcerer's total spell power as the combined total of all of their spell slots' levels plus their Sorcery Point. For my Sorcery Pool, I came up with simple formula that, when combined with Sorcerous Recovery and assuming two short rests per day, results in the Sorcerer having Sorcery Points roughly equal to the current Sorcerer's combined points. The formula to calculate expected Sorcery Points per day is as follows: SP per day = Level X Multiplier + Bonus. Multiplier starts at 3, goes to 4 at level 5, and goes to 5 at level 11. Bonus starts at 0, goes to 4 (approx) at level 7, and 5 (approx) at level 8.

For example, a 3rd-level Sorcerer would have about 9 Sorcery Points per day, which is two points lower than a level 3 Sorcerer's combined spell slots and Sorcery Points. However, a 12th level Sorcerer is expected to have 65 points, 6 more than the base Sorcerer's 59. Sorcery Points using this formula fall within 7 points of the base Sorcerer's combined total at all levels.

Won't this result in the Sorcerer casting more spells than another caster?
This may result in the Sorcerer casting more leveled spells per day than a full caster of comparable level. However, that's only if the Sorcerer favors lower level spells and uses few Metamagic options that day. This new system gives the Sorcerer power in flexibility but only a small increase, if any, in the number of spells cast per day.

Note that using Sorcery Points on spells directly competes with using Sorcery Points on Metamagic. Additionally, the Sorcerer's fewer spells known, lack of ritual casting, and relative lack of features besides Metamagic should be balanced by their relative flexibility in this system.

Also note that a Wizard using Arcane Recovery actually has a comparable number of converted spell points relative to this Sorcerer's Sorcery Points, and that's not counting rituals, Signature Spell, or other Wizard subclass features.

Hey, this system allows Sorcerers to cast multiple 6th+ level spells per day!
That's true, but never the same spell more than once. A different spellcaster could potentially cast the same 6th level several times per day depending on how many 6th+ slots they have, but not this Sorcerer. Additionally, this Sorcerer must give up a limited spell known in order to gain a spell of level 6 or higher. So, knowing that you can only cast a spell like that once per day, do you take more 6th+ spells and sacrifice your lower level, more flexible spells? Or do you forgo the more powerful spells to focus on low-level spells that can be cast much more freely? This kind of simple but impactful choice, I believe, is the stuff of good game design.

Lower level spells can potentially be upcast into 6th+ slots an increased number of times per day. However. upcasting a spell seldom changes what it does in any meaningful way - it just makes it more powerful. This effect can be thought of as a sort of bonus Metamagic, and one that will have a hefty cost if the Sorcerer makes frequent use of it.

What's with the Wild Magic origin?
Being able to cast a spell from the Sorcerer list that you don't currently know was a common suggestion, but it made the most sense to me for the Wild magic Sorcerer to gain this feature. It also made sense for this feature to trigger the Wild Magic Surge table, giving the player some control over when that feature gets used and thus killing two birds with one stone.

For the Innate Magic, rather than picking spells with "random" or chaotic effects, I chose ones likely to create chaos on the battlefield - ones I thought would be fun for the sort of player who would choose this origin. A table catapults across the room, a door suddenly grows much larger or smaller, friends attack each other, the terrain takes on a strange and troublesome appearance, and random objects come to life and attack - now this is <s>podracing</s> Wild Magic.

Why not just use Spell Points?
The spell point system in the DMG is clunky and unintuitive, in my opinion. I understand why they made each spell cost what it does, but I don't think it was the right approach for this kind of system. It creates an odd weighting effect where spells of a given level are more or less appealing simply due to the way point costs are broken down.

Additionally, it would interact weirdly with Sorcery Points. In order for Metamagic to be balanced, I would either need to change the cost of Metamagic in a strange way or I would need to require the player to track Spell Points and Sorcery Points separately, which would defeat the purpose of making a simpler, friendlier Sorcerer.

[paladinn]

All, I created a more comprehensive Simple Sorcerer over at Homebrewery: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryLQS4Ubr. The new version is also below. It looks nicer over on Homebrewery than it does here. I promise it doesn't take much new learning - mostly, it's what we've already discussed. Also, the origin changes are minimal and players will only need to learn one new feature for their origin.


I think I like this for the most part. I'd still give a Sorc extra sorc points equal to their CHA bonus. Yes they might cast a couple more spells per rest, but it's a fair trade-off given their lack of versatility.

[Vogie]

I'm curious.. What would be wrong with just "spell point cost = spell level"? Would that really make a caster OP? Especially given the limits on higher level spells/ day



Regarding the Spell Point system in the DMG, my problem is that it's clunky to use. It's not clear why a 1st level spell costs two points, a second level costs 3, but then 3rd jumps to 5, and so on. One spell level = one point makes more sense to me.

While it may make sense, it's important to have mechanical representation of power differentials.

I wasn't a fly on the wall when the Spell Points Variant was being crafted, but the fact that it's based on a conversion of the Sorcerer's Font of Magic/Flexible Casting feature is quite telling, mechanically.

If Spell level = Spell points, the following would be true -

There's no way to discount anything without 1st level spells becoming free
Whenever Spell points are introduced, if they're based on Sorcerer levels, it just expands power level exponentially (Instead of Font of Magic at level 2 becoming a single 1st level spell, it'd be a pair of them)
Constant issues with their ability to create higher slots than they'd normally had
Lower level spells would quickly cease to become anything more than point fodder for higher or better scaling spells
There's no sacrifice whatsoever in moving spells from points and back (By RAW, you can sac a 1st level spell for 1 sp, but it costs 2 sp to create a 1st level spell)
All metamagic effects have to be equivalent to a 1st level spell, at least, eliminating all minor alterations.
(This is just for RAW Sorcerers)

There are certain breakpoints of power, as well - 3rd level spells are really powerful, available at level 5, where martial classes would get an extra attack. If they're equivalent, then breaking a 3rd level spell into 3 1st level spells will be more powerful over time - 3 chaos bolts deal 6d8+3d6 damage (with jump potential) or 3 chromatic orbs deal 9d8, while a single fireball deals a mere 8d6. Compared to RAW, where cracking a 3rd level spell only provides enough spell points for a 2nd level spell, or a 1st level and leftover point.

With the existing setup:

There are limited number of levels where a caster has the ability to cast spells with a level higher than they know.
You could create metamagic or subclass features to "shrink" spell costs allowing them to be discounted without shifting levels (a 3rd level spell could be reduced from 5 to 4 points, while a 2nd level spells cost 3, and how a Shadow Sorc can cast Darkness, a 2nd level spell, with only 2 points), while also without making anything free (such as 1st level spells costing a single sorc point)
Switching to spell points only removes the sacrifice differential while leaving everything else intact.

[Trickery]

While it may make sense, it's important to have mechanical representation of power differentials.

I wasn't a fly on the wall when the Spell Points Variant was being crafted, but the fact that it's based on a conversion of the Sorcerer's Font of Magic/Flexible Casting feature is quite telling, mechanically.

If Spell level = Spell points, the following would be true -

There's no way to discount anything without 1st level spells becoming free
Whenever Spell points are introduced, if they're based on Sorcerer levels, it just expands power level exponentially (Instead of Font of Magic at level 2 becoming a single 1st level spell, it'd be a pair of them)
Constant issues with their ability to create higher slots than they'd normally had
Lower level spells would quickly cease to become anything more than point fodder for higher or better scaling spells
There's no sacrifice whatsoever in moving spells from points and back (By RAW, you can sac a 1st level spell for 1 sp, but it costs 2 sp to create a 1st level spell)
All metamagic effects have to be equivalent to a 1st level spell, at least, eliminating all minor alterations.
(This is just for RAW Sorcerers)

There are certain breakpoints of power, as well - 3rd level spells are really powerful, available at level 5, where martial classes would get an extra attack. If they're equivalent, then breaking a 3rd level spell into 3 1st level spells will be more powerful over time - 3 chaos bolts deal 6d8+3d6 damage (with jump potential) or 3 chromatic orbs deal 9d8, while a single fireball deals a mere 8d6. Compared to RAW, where cracking a 3rd level spell only provides enough spell points for a 2nd level spell, or a 1st level and leftover point.

With the existing setup:

There are limited number of levels where a caster has the ability to cast spells with a level higher than they know.
You could create metamagic or subclass features to "shrink" spell costs allowing them to be discounted without shifting levels (a 3rd level spell could be reduced from 5 to 4 points, while a 2nd level spells cost 3, and how a Shadow Sorc can cast Darkness, a 2nd level spell, with only 2 points), while also without making anything free (such as 1st level spells costing a single sorc point)
Switching to spell points only removes the sacrifice differential while leaving everything else intact.


I think you make good points. I want to respond to a few things:
Regarding 3rd level spells being equivalent to 3 1st level spells, you compare the damage of one fireball to the damage of 3 chromatic orbs. Ignoring chromatic orb being a single-target spell, I don't think this is a fair comparison. Casting a third-level spell costs one action, whereas casting three first-level spells costs three actions. Being able to do more with your action is of significant utility.

And besides that, the current power conversion system has the 3rd-level slot costing just one point shy of as much as three 1st-level slots. So it's pretty close already.

The same is true of Metamagic. I'm not convinced that metamagic options need to change in value this system because their is added value in being able to add metamagic effects onto spells in the same round as you cast that spell. Casting Fireball as a bonus action and then taking the Dodge action is better than casting Fireball and then taking the Dodge action next turn. So we don't need Metamagic to be at least as valuable as a first-level spell in a vacuum, we just need the effects that it adds this round to be as good. One of the weakest metamagic options, Distant, allows you to fire spells from twice as far away. That prevents you from needing to get closer to the target, and the value of that is not fixed.

Actually, this version of Metamagic is more like Metamagic was back in 3.5e. You're effectively upcasting spells into higher slots in order to attach Metamagic to them. In that regard, we could say that a subtle spell costs +1 spell level, a quickened spell costs +2 spell levels, and a heightened spell costs +3 spell levels, in effect.

I addressed the possibility of creating higher level spell slots with my system - it's not possible. You can't upcast a spell to a higher level than the highest level spell you can currently cast.

Regarding your comment that "Lower level spells would quickly cease to become anything more than point fodder for higher or better scaling spells", I don't agree since lower level spells often have unique effects. Shield, Absorb Elements, Feather Fall, Mage Armor, and Detect Magic are all examples of spells that are useful at all levels.

[bendking]

And what exactly would that look like?

Honestly, the spell point system.
Though it could be toned down if for some reason you think it's too good.
Maybe converting spells to one SP point less than their purchase price.

[8wGremlin]

Still interested how this would work with Multiclassing.

For instance how would this work for the ever popular Sorcadin.
Do we work out the spell points the same way we would now. IE Sorcerer level + (paladin level/2)

Thus a 2nd level Paladin, 5th level Sorcerer would have spell points of a 6th level Sorcerer, correct?
Now what happens with a Wizard 5, Sorcerer 1, would they have spell points of a 6th level Sorcerer?
That then is some potent versatility!

Needs more playtesting, and less paper theory.

[patchyman]

I guess I still don't get why you cant have 1 spell/sorc point = 1 spell slot level, and use the point pool for spells And metamagic. Given the Wizard's huge list of spells, I hardly think it's unbalanced.

That approach really hoses some of the cheaper metamagics. Distant and Extend now cost the same as a 1st level spell. Even Quicken is a lot less interesting if you are giving up a level 2 spell to cast it.

[Trickery]

That approach really hoses some of the cheaper metamagics. Distant and Extend now cost the same as a 1st level spell. Even Quicken is a lot less interesting if you are giving up a level 2 spell to cast it.

I think those metamagics are still viable with the system. In the current system, you don't have many Sorcery Points to work with and can gain one Sorcery Point by consuming one 1st-level spell slot. Using the Spell Point Variant in the DMG, you still don't have many Sorcery Points and still only gain one Sorcery Point by consuming one 1st-level spell slot.

In effect, Distant and Extend already cost one 1st-level spell slot. The difference is that, if you wanted to create spell slots, you always do so at a loss.

My version of the Sorcery Point system just changes it so that spells always cost their level in Sorcery Points and you have about the same amount of total magic to work with.

Additionally, there are cases where having Extend or Distant on a spell is worth more than a 1st level spell because it does something your 1st level spells can't do and does it with favorable action economy (modifies a spell as part of the action of casting that spell). Extended Haste is better than two castings of Haste because you don't end up with two wasted rounds - it's still just one. And it only costs one Sorcery Point to extend any spell that can be extended.

Distant is more difficult to value since its usefulness depends on the campaign. What I will say is that when it's good, it's very good.

[Amechra]

How about...

1) Sorcerers have spells known equal to their Constitution modifier plus their class level. The stronger their blood, the more they know.
2) Sorcerers get the following class feature at 7th level:

Flexible Sorcery
At 7th level, you gain an additional sorcery point whenever you convert a spell slot into sorcery points.

Now you have more staying power, and you have spells known comparable to other full casters.

[paladinn]

How about...

1) Sorcerers have spells known equal to their Constitution modifier plus their class level. The stronger their blood, the more they know.
2) Sorcerers get the following class feature at 7th level:

Flexible Sorcery
At 7th level, you gain an additional sorcery point whenever you convert a spell slot into sorcery points.

Now you have more staying power, and you have spells known comparable to other full casters.

I'd personally prefer that sorcerers get more sorcery/spell points equal to their Charisma modifier. This keeps the "less flexibility but more magic per day" mechanic that was started for sorcs in 3.x

It makes sense that wizards get more spells known based on Intelligence, and sorcerers get more power based on Charisma.

Sorcs should also get some more/better cantrips, starting with eldritch blast. Just IMHO.

[Garfunion]

My 2 cents
I would replace charisma spellcasting for constitution. I feel the sorcerer should be the “not as frail” spell caster.
At 1st level I would also give them Eschew Materials;
The sorcerer can ignore the spell component cost of there sorcerer spells unless the spell requires a costly consumable component.

6-7th level
Spell Warped
The sorcerer can have any sorcerer spell they cast ignore them, to include any ongoing effects their spell may have.
Example: the sorcerer can drop a sleep of fireball at their feet and have the effects ignore them. Or they can walk through their own wall of fire and not suffer any of the spells effects.

[Vogie]

Still interested how this would work with Multiclassing.

For instance how would this work for the ever popular Sorcadin.
Do we work out the spell points the same way we would now. IE Sorcerer level + (paladin level/2)

Thus a 2nd level Paladin, 5th level Sorcerer would have spell points of a 6th level Sorcerer, correct?
Now what happens with a Wizard 5, Sorcerer 1, would they have spell points of a 6th level Sorcerer?
That then is some potent versatility!

Needs more playtesting, and less paper theory.

At my table, I make it act as non-combinatory as Pact Magic for the recordkeeping sense. You have spell points based on your sorcerer level, and spell slots following your wizard, paladin or bard progression. Since the Spell point to slot conversion is a known quantity, you can even smite with spell points, with a cap on how many points you can use at a time based on sorcerer level.